Talk:Evel Knievel/Archive 1

Knievel was his real name?
--Greasysteve13 10:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitely. There are still several Knievels listed in the Butte Phone Book; in the historic city jail, they have his arrest record from May 1956, for Robert Knievel. --Geologyguy 13:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Kidnapping?
Did he really kidnap his first wife? I thought that part was mildly hilarious. I wonder why there isn't an active talk page for such a well known American pop-icon? Fuzzform 22:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Though she was a willing participant.Rsm99833


 * I wonder as well. Kanye West's recent Touch the Sky video was a parody of Knievel's failed Snake River Canyon jump. It happened 3 years before West was born! So his pop-icon status even resonates with non-baby boomers (especially Gen-X).


 * He actually kidnapped her a couple of times. The first time, he was arrested after attempting to return to town (charges were dropped by her father with the understanding that Knievel would not have contact with her prior to her graduation from college).  The second attempt, the father was on a fishing trip, the two were successful in getting married.


 * Pay-per-view cable in 1974?! In an alternate universe?


 * Someone told me he was dead, this isn't true right?


 * No. He's still quite alive. Rsm99833 14:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok...now he's dead. RIP

Clean up
The 'early life' section is all boxed, why is it in this format?. Fix this please.--Hellogoodsir 18:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Which book was this whole article copied from? (Just saying, looks a bit cut-and-pastish to me) --JanesDaddy 07:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Humorous Commentary
There seems to be a fair bit of humorous commentary, some of it parenthetical. While I found myself laughing, it doesn't seem to meet the standards of this wiki. Comments? Bstone 15:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * what are you babbleing about? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jake b (talk • contribs) 16:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Useful comments only, please. Bstone 09:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed! Jake b 17:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems that the commentary is funny and I like it, but I am not sure it is up to the standards of this wiki. So, again, if you have something serious to add then please do. I am considering editing it out but will wait for comment. Bstone 18:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I see that a new tag has been put up, about how this article reads like a magazine article and lack formal tone. I agree with this. Bstone 22:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this bad? I'm not sure how formal one can get with an article about the life and times of Evel Knievel. Jake b 01:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources Issue
I have marked the page recently for not citing sources and references. I have no knowledge as to the biography of Evil Knievel but reading through I found some parts hard to believe, i.e kidnapping, the whole olympic hockey drama. It would be great to know what I was reading is not somehow made up. The article for its size and level of detail should realistically be sourced extensively. Abcdefghayden 08:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a nice article. I had never realized how battered up Knievel was. It would be interesting for someone to insert more information about the long-term effects of all these injuries. Can he walk? He must have massive arthritis. Sexual function after being schwacked in the groin?! Does his current lung failure relate to all this? How on earth could he keep recovering? Is his cognitive functioning impaired? It's quite astonishing.


 * According to this BBC article, he's in pretty bad shape and he has only 2 years to live. -- Hugo Dufort 23:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * and he has only 2 years to live. Not even, apparently. Andersonblog 21:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Superdave
All of this and no mention of Superdave?
 * Help me Mike -- Anyways, this article should be semi-protected. There's way too many acts of vandalism occuring. GoodDay 00:34, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've sprotected it for an hour, but it might need a longer protection. It's been really hard to keep the page clear of nonsense. Natalie 00:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

latin language interwiki
Please add  Evel Knievel . Thanks. 71.208.202.37 04:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Stats?
It would be nice to know how many jumps he made and how many were successful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericfluger (talk • contribs)

Overall poorly crafted article. There is little momentum and long gaps in time (each jump lasts a very short time...what was going on in the intervening months/years?). Regarding stats, it gives the impression that Knievel hardly ever successfully landed a jump. If this is true, okay, but stats (including details about the jumps) would help the reader get a sense for Knievel's number of successes/failures.

Particularly lacking in power was the description of the apparently momentous Snake River Canyon Jump. Take a look at the below passage from the article. It not only fails to elicit a sense of awe, it barely describes what actually happened. How wide was the canyon? How deep? It seems to imply that Knievel ran a greater risk of dying by drowning than dying from the fall itself:

"The launch at the Snake River Canyon was at 3:36 p.m. local time. The steam that powered the engine had to get up to a temperature of 700 °F (370 °C). Upon take-off, the drogue parachute accidentally deployed when the three 1/4 inch bolts holding the cover for the chute sheared off with the force of the blast. The deployed chute caused enough drag that even though the skycycle made it all the way across the canyon the wind began to cause it to drift back as the skycycle turned on its side and started to descend into the canyon. By the time it hit the bottom of the canyon, the wind had pushed it across the river enough so that it landed half in and half out of the water, just a couple feet more in the water and Knievel would have drowned. Knievel survived the jump with only minor injuries." ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Continuous Life (talk • contribs)


 * Agreed,and a stats section would be very useful. As is stands, this article reads a bit like "Knievel tried to jump XYZ, came off and broke ABC, then he tried to jump WXY, came off and broke DEF, then he tried to jump WXY again and this time broke GHI, then he tried to jump JKL, came off...". I count 10 or 11 detailed mentions of jumps that failed, with varying injuries, one partial success (the first jump mentioned) and just 4 mentions (mainly just in passing) of successful jumps. Overall this leads the reader to conclude that Knievel really wasn't very good at jumping over things on a motorcycle. Since I don't think this is the case, perhaps someone with a more detailed knowledge of EK's record than I could address this? Tonywalton | Talk 11:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"Health" section?
In light of the Hep-C, the liver transplant, and the IPF, perhaps it would be better to create a separate "Health" section rather than include it in "Retirement". Any thoughts? -Juansmith 18:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think his health from beginning to end formed a significant part of his notability and rates its own section. Rklawton 15:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The Simpsons
Can we just have a little note on the page citing EK as the obvious inspiration for one of Bart's heroes, the motorcycling daredevil Lance Murdoch, who appears in a few early episodes of the series? Martyn Smith 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe you could put it in the Simpson's article - if you can find a reliable source that states that this is the case. Rklawton 15:25, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Edit by unregistered user:
 * I personally think that Lance Murdoch should be mentioned briefly on this page, because i suspect that some youngsters might me more familiar with this fictional character than with Evel Knievel himself.

Inability to edit due to partial protection
"The highlight of the episode is when Bart attempts to jump his skateboard acorss "Springfield Gorge" an obvious parody of the Snake River Canyon jump." - across misspelled, my apologies if this is the wrong location for a request of this nature. 82.152.219.27 18:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the right place to add such a request. However, I believe this material might be better suited for the Simpson article as Bart has no bearing on the subject of this article.  Rklawton 18:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

EK Parody: Firesign Theatre
EK was parodied as "Rebus Knebus" on the Firesign Theatre's album Everything You Know Is Wrong. A knowledgeable individual may wish to add this information to the parody section. 209.34.137.138 20:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Gurff, December 1

Possible Barstow material copyvio
Unfortunately, I heard far too much about E.K. growing up. Having broken my collar bone myself, I am dubious about his claims as to the number of bones he was breaking in each major incident. It was two months before I could lift my arm above my shoulder again, and I was only 15 at the time. A broken arm is no big deal, I had that too, reset twice before it healed, esp. in his case with scantily clad women mixing his cold drinks while he convalesces, or so the article implies.

Back to the matter at hand. The following passage is word for word identical to Evel Knievel, dead at 69 by Stone Martindale Nov 30, 2007, 21:36 GMT, published in M&C which seems to lack an "about" page, casting doubt on how well they police their own articles, leaving the origin of this text uncertain.

During the performance, Knievel attempted a new stunt where he would jump, spread eagle, over a speeding motorcycle. Knievel jumped too late and the motorcycle hit him in the groin, tossing him fifteen feet into the air. Knievel ended up in the hospital because of his injuries. When released, he returned to Barstow to finish the performance he had started almost a month before.

MaxEnt 01:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a copyvio, but here's the good news - we didn't take it from Monsters&Critics, but rather the other way around. That material has been in the article for some time, as you can see from the history (it's been there for more than a month) - so, it's M&C who plagiarised it from us! Terraxos 02:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * What is the most efficient method to determine for a passage of text which revision originated that text? Even with pop-ups I often regard it as too much of an ordeal to hunt through the haystack of an article where I have only a passing interest.  Drop a note on my talk page if there is a trick I'm not getting.  MaxEnt 02:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sadly, I'm not sure if there is a more efficient method than just searching diff by diff. One thing that can be helpful, rather than just starting at the beginning and going backwards, can be to check every 50 or 100 edits for the particular passage. If you find that it is in revision 200, but not in 250, for example, you only have to look through 200-250, instead of 0-250 (where 0 is the most recent revision). That's the only trick I'm aware of. Natalie 02:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is what I suspected. Thanks for the unhappy confirmation.  On a second point, do we assume once we find that the Wikipedia text pre-dates the contested source that the text wasn't copied originally by an even older source not yet discovered?  At what point do we ask the original editor to vouch for his/her contribution?  MaxEnt 02:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Update. I found another article by Stone Martindale with suspicious duplication from another source concerning the passage quoted below.
 * http://people.monstersandcritics.com/features/article_1347743.php/Jersey_kid_hacks_iPhone
 * http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/default/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-1783_2171550

Hotz himself spent about 500 hours on the project since the iPhone went on sale on June 29. On Thursday, he put the unlocked iPhone up for sale on eBay, where the high bid was above $2,000 midday Friday. The model, with 4 gigabytes of memory, sells for $499 new.
 * MaxEnt 04:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I went back to M&C and this time found the about link in the brown box at the bottom, not where I normally expect. I then notified them at their legal contact of the discussion here.  MaxEnt 04:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Deindenting. Given the notification to M&C, it's only fair to lay out the Wikipedia facts. I dug back and found the original edit by User:Gorrister from 17 June 2005. Gorrister was extremely active in 2005, but ceased editing in late 2005 with only one edit since, in 2007. Made some significant contributions to Sandy Koufax prior to it becoming a featured article. Got into a revision war on 12 Sept 2005 with 15 revisions to an anon IP. We all have our bad days. Active for a while in AFD discussions. G's talk page suggests s/he perhaps uploaded several images with lax copyright attributions. Huge edit to E.K. with the Barstow material included three new references:   It could be the disputed material dates back to one of these primary sources. MaxEnt 05:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Book reference | Author=Ace Collins | Title=Evel Knievel: An American Hero | Publisher= St. Martins Press | Year=1999 | ID=ISBN 0-312-267339
 * Book reference | Author=Steve Mandich | Title= Evel Incarnate: The Life and Legend of Evel Knievel | Publisher= Sidgwick & Jackson | Year= 2001 | ID=ISBN 0-283-063629
 * Web reference | URL= http://stevemandich.com/evelincarnite/eveltimeline.htm| title= Evel Knievel time line | work= Evel Incarnate | date= June 17| year= 2005


 * Another update. Both my blog comment about the discussion here and the disputed material has promptly vanished from M&C. MaxEnt 06:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This morning I had a prompt and professional note from M&C legal in my inbox stating that they will take prompt and appropriate action on their side. Any speculative slight I might have made about whether M&C takes copyright of their contents seriously was entirely undeserved.  MaxEnt 15:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If they want to talk to someone from Wikipedia, they need to contact the Foundation directly. If you're emailing them, you may want to direct them to the Contact page specifically for copyright problems. Natalie 17:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to follow this thread, so correct me if I'm wrong: In summary, it appears that our edit predates Stone Martindale's published article on EK by two years and that there is another possible instance of Stone Martindale plagiarising from another Internet source (not Wikipedia)? And now M&C has removed the article (or disputed bits) and blog references to this matter from their website? Is that correct? Oh, and is their prompt action aimed at Wikipedia or Martindale? Rklawton 18:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it appears that our edit predates their article, which at least indicates that it wasn't copied from them. However, it's possible that the section in both our article and their article could have been copied from a third source. I can't answer the other questions, though. Natalie 18:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry for creating such a jumble. I didn't suspect I would keep poking at it like a demented chicken.  Our edit precedes Stone's by more than year.  The other example I found of possible infringement is Stone contributing content to M&C in a much earlier article (does not affect us here).  M&C took proactive measures to remove the disputed material from their own site.  The person I contacted said he is taking appropriate measures on their side with respect to their contributor.  He expressed no concern about the content here, other than to point out that he's had experience before where both sides had copied from the same original source.  Last night, when I tried to determine the origin of the material here, I tracked it down to the very large Gorrister edit, which implicates two books as the source of most of the new additions.  The degree to which this copyright source material was paraphrased by Gorrister (or not) remains an open question.  Gorrister made valuable contributions here, mostly in 2005, but there is some evidence (uploaded images, since removed) that he/she didn't always take copyright as seriously as necessary.  As far as I can see, this matter is closed on the M&C side (apart from their own process with Stone), what remains is whether we further investigate the original Gorrister contribution.  I'm not aware of the policy/practice concerning when such questions are asked, or how we go about doing so.  Part of the reason I was searching for confirmation of that passage (which lead to finding duplication at M&C) was that it reads oddly to my mind.  Moreover, I'm dubious of the physics (but not the pop. appeal) of the 15 foot high groin-impact calf toss, as well as the apparently riderless state of the bike jumped.  As a general rule in high speed impacts, the mass stays put if any possible plastic deformation (or splatter) allows it to do so.  Glancing impacts tend to discharge energy into angular terms rather than kinetic terms.  Perhaps we could remove the Barstow passage for these reasons and wait to see if anyone comes along who wishes to reincorporate that incident, who can attest to the source used.  However, by the size of the G. diff introducing this dubious paragraph, about half of the article at the time originated in that single edit.  If Gorrester was actively paraphrasing (with mental faculties engaged), I'm surprised he/she would have introduced such an obtuse passage.  It reads to my mind as pop. pulp such as might have been written in one of those books, which leaves me with a mild unease. MaxEnt 20:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Found one alternate version of how Barstow transpired.  Bike had a rider, struck Evel at 60 mph, state trouper put a blanket over his head, “He thought I was dead. So did I.”  I guess the other rider put his head down during the impact.  Also I found the whole Wikipedia article at M&C, attributed to Wikipedia, in an archive copy, so now it seems clear it wasn't parallel infringement of an unknown original source.  MaxEnt 20:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Inability to edit due to partial protection
"I'd like to add the fact that Evel Knievel borrowed $2000.00 to fund his first stunt/ show from a former secretary of his, promised to pay her back, but never did. She told me that he used most of her money to have his first "significant" ramp built." I know this is true, and verifiable, because she is my Grandmother. She still resides in Riverside County CA. I would like to protect her by not including her name if possible.
 * See our policies regarding reliable and verifiable sources. Without that, your suggestion can't be included.  If she has a signed note, she might want to file a claim against his estate.  Rklawton 22:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Can someone get rid of the penis picture overlayed on the text 84.68.125.79 22:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Giant picture of a penis
Am I the only one who sees a gigantic picture of a penis overtop of this article? I don't know where to look for something like that in the article source, and I found the revision where it first shows up, this one, but there's nothing in that revision relating to an image at all. What exactly is going on here? Tromboneguy0186 22:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, removing the text that was added in that revision took care of it. But still, what the hell happened? Tromboneguy0186 22:42, 1 December 2007 (UTC) And why did it remain in the article for more than a day? I have to think that's something that would, ya know, get noticed. Tromboneguy0186 22:43, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You need to slooth a little more friend. Someone messed up template:copy-edit. Yanksox 22:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't think it was on here for "more than a day", as I checked the article last night and there was no picture; but there just was about 5 minutes ago. Trvr3307 22:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it's not in the revision I linked now. I am even more confused. Tromboneguy0186 22:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Neither is it in any revision...I'm hopelessly confused, but at least the issue's been fixed, and I'm guessing not by me. Tromboneguy0186 22:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What happened is that someone added the picture to a template. That template happens to be on this page. While the picture was on the template, it appeared on any page that included the template. When the picture is removed from the template, it disappears from all the pages that have the template. But none of that will show in the edit history of this article or any other article containing the template, because it's all edits to the template. I hope that makes sense. Natalie 23:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, perfect sense, thanks! Tromboneguy0186 23:59, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. This may not be the correct place to ask this, but is that something that just anyone can edit (thus vandalizing many pages at once)? Trvr3307 23:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's why widely-used and highly visible templates are usually protected from editing (see High-risk templates). This one isn't, though; perhaps it should be added to the list. Terraxos 01:50, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe it has been protected, following a very similar discussion on WP:ANI. Pictures of penises and the like are also usually put on the MediaWiki:Bad image list, which employs a technical feature to disallow their use in all but approved articles, to reduce this kind of vandalism. For some reason that picture had not been on the list, but I believe it's been added. Natalie 15:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Death
It has been confirmed Evel has died. If someone with editing ability for this locked articly could update it that'd be appreciated.

Source - http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/11/30/knievel-obit.html

156.34.3.115 20:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The version you saw had been vandalized, although it did still give a death date in the very first sentence. I've restored the pre-vandalism version. Natalie 23:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Surname
What is the origin of his surname? I am assuming German, Swiss, or Austrian? Badagnani 04:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See comment below. -- 71.191.131.7 02:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Breaking arms of PR man
Is it true that he broke someone's arms with a baseball bat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.29.13 (talk) 21:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. In fact, according to this Associated Press article, the victim of the attack is making a $100 million claim against Knievel's estate for the unpaid court judgment for this assault. *** Crotalus *** 11:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Height of Snake River Canyon
Exactly how far did he fall when he fell into the Snake River? This should be noted in the article. Badagnani 19:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, what was the exact length of the Snake River Canyon jump? Badagnani 19:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Conversion To Christianity
This section has got to go or significantly scaled back. It's overblown, not notable, and non even remotely encyclopedic content. Evel Knievel was a motorcycle daredevil, not a theologian. Rahga 18:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Geologyguy 19:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree. This is very notable. For a person with his reputation to so publicly convert to Christianity is not unlike the biblical Paul the Apostle who had such an extraordinary conversion experience on the road to Damascus. No one is saying he is a theologian, he least of all. CME GBM 21:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is unlike Paul, as Knievel was self-destructive and abusive towards his family, not openly and indiscriminately hostile to Christians. Quoting the article... "In a spontaneous response described by some worshipers as one of the most spiritually significant events they had ever experienced, an estimated 500 to 800 people came forward for baptism and to commit or rededicate their lives to God. Each was baptized by Pastor Robert A. Schuller and four other associate pastors." This is blantantly breaks NPOV and is filled with peacock statements and details that don't need to be there (Sorry, but "commit or rededicate their lives" as opposed to what? Make small talk with Super Dave?), and at a minimum, needs to be toned down a quite a bit. Rahga 16:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've pared this section down, I think it still conveys whatever significance is there, though I'm still not sure it should even have its own heading. Quadpus (talk) 00:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

German heritage
As an anon, I can't edit the article. Could someone mention that the Knievel name is of German heritage, and his great-great-grandparents immigrated from Germany to the USA. The somewhat confusing full family tree is here. Search on "Ignatius J Knievel" is his grandfather and "Robert Knievel" is his father. Evel "Robert" Knievel is not directly listed but it says "The grandmother of stuntman Evel Knievel" will locate him. -- 71.191.131.7 02:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Added. Please check the text for accuracy. Was Ignatius born in Germany? If he was Evel's grandfather and was born in Germany, why do you state that his "great-great-grandparents" were born in Germany? That would be two generations back. Badagnani 18:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not Ignatius, but his grandfather. It is a badly written file. Rmhermen (talk) 00:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency in article
The article states:

"Knievel made several attempts to reconcile with his estranged son, Robbie, even appearing with him at a couple of jumps. After Robbie's successful jump of the Caesar's Palace fountains, the two went their separate ways for good."

but then

"On July 28, 2006, at Evel Knievel Days in Butte, Robbie jumped 196 feet in a tribute to his father. Robbie also appeared on stage with his father, Evel."

This is inconsistent. 68.45.106.216 (talk) 04:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As no one offered an explanation of the inconsistency, I have removed the paragraph beginning with "Knievel made several attempts..." 68.45.106.216 (talk) 14:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

And dont forget Pete Chance & Evel's deal for the restarant in LV for the wood xr-750 model bike —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.5.221.1 (talk) 02:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Rubbish
"Evel Knievel word is No Good, This man word NG Keep you word and do what you said. Evel Knievel Shame on you buddy." posted 02:45, 4 January 2007 by 216.232.151.69 And your point is? Roaming27 23:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC) What? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.121.168 (talk) 20:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Jumped the shark?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark says: "Evel Knievel retired after his attempt to literally jump the shark in the winter of 1976; hence the Fonzie stunt." I dont see any mention of anything like this here.
 * Probably because it never happened. He never attempted to jump a shark before his retirement. Rattlesnakes, yes- in the beginning. Sharks, no.Rsm99833 14:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I recall that he was going to jump a tank with a live shark in it for Wide World of Sports, but crashed during a practice jump over the empty tank. There is footage of the crash, and I think it's the one already mentioned in the article.

Taken from his bio on his official site:

"In the winter of 1976 Evel was seriously injured during a nationally televised performance of an attempt to motorcycle jump a tank full of live sharks in the Chicago Ampitheater. For the first time a bystander was also injured when a cameraman was struck, eventually losing an eye. Knievel, who suffered a brain concussion and two broken arms, decided to retire from major performances but continued to do smaller exhibitions around the country with his son Robbie, establishing him as his successor."

You can see where the "jump the shark" expression came from as it led to his end (or retirement). Similarly, when TV shows jump the shark, it is a signal that the series has met its end as well. 192.249.47.11 17:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the expression refers directly to that telltale episode of Happy Days, where Fonzie performed a jump similar to what Knevel planned, but now we're splitting hairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.212.99.11 (talk) 19:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Number of broken bones
The smithsonian article referenced mentioned 433 broken bones, although evel claimed far fewer. The Times obituary, in the external links, mentioned 430 breaks. I have chosen the greater number to replace the figure of forty previously mentioned in the article Zfishwiki (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Charlotte Clippers debate
I don't quite understand why these comments on the verifiability of one or more sources are in the middle of the article in plain (i.e., not "invisible") text, but they have been inappropriately placed for months. All material of this nature is to be tagged and discussed. I have now moved them over to here, the appropriate site of discussion...here they are, in commentary format as was pasted in article until today, 17:21, 14 July 2008 (UTC) (though I numbered the refs differently).

Shortly after getting married, Knievel (may have) left Butte to play minor pro hockey, joining the Charlotte Clippers of the Eastern Hockey League in 1959.1 (hockeydb.com has no record of this.)2, 3

THE REFERENCES 1. Obituary 2. 1958-59 Charlotte Clippers [EHL&#93; player statistics at hockeydb.com 3. 1959-60 Charlotte Clippers [EHL&#93; player statistics at hockeydb.com

Looking through the revision history, both the sources and counter-sources were provided by Mayumashu (19:39, November 30, 2007). Before this time, the hockey team was (incorrectly?) cited as the Charlotte Checkers.

Discuss, debate and decide BEFORE adding information in the article. I have replaced most of this material with a tag.

Evel's Applause
Evel Knievel was a hero, criminal, and an average joe in his small hometown of butte montana. Although many people think of him only as some kid that jumps cars and steals to eat, i think of him as a man that is fearless and brave but has made some horrible decisions. My favorite story about Evel that my grampa told me (he went to Butte High School with Evel) was when the young daredevil would ride his motorbike around the school and get away with it. In some ways i would love to be Evel Knievel. Then again in some ways i dont. Evels death in November 2007 devestated the town of Butte Montana along with the fans all across the world. We will never froget the greatest daredevil on earth. Robert Craig "evel" Knievel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.175.200.64 (talk) 23:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

im confused! broken bones
heyy well i was on Fcat explorer doing activites required to prepare for the fcat and it said evil knieval broke 37, or according to some, 32 or 35 bones makes a guiness world record but on the page it said 433? that CANT be right, so i edited it so tell me if im right! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.32.181.97 (talk) 00:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

No Pay-Per-View in '72
Evel Knievel's Snake River Canyon jump was actually televised via a (national?) closed-circuit television network at various venues around the country. You had to buy tickets. I saw the failed attempt on a large projection TV screen at the Cow Palace (covered arena) in San Francisco. I assume the set-up was similar elsewhere. Perhaps someone who knows more details can make the edit.
 * Hmmmm. I remember watching it live on ABC's 'Wide World of Sports' Oh, and the jump took place in 1974.

http://espn.go.com/abcsports/wwos/e_knievel.html Rsm99833 02:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's bizarre. My father and I watched it (along with a few thousand other people) on the big screen at Toronto's Maple Leaf Gardens, presumably as part of the closed circuit TV network mentioned above.  I can't imagine we would've done that had it been live on WWOS as the link above describes. Futnuh 04:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe the big screens and the spirit of community justified the extra expense and inconvenience. :) But the live WWOS telecast was where I watched it, as well, on one of the three TV channels we could receive in Garson, Ontario, in 1974.--Vonbontee (talk) 02:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality
Might need a little work, doesn't seem to mention the fact that he was implicated in several violent acts, serving time for at least one of them. See. --208.82.225.232 (talk) 11:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No kidding! This whole thing was written by a groupie. It goes out of its way in each section to point out what a great, standup guy he was. What the hell kind of article has a paragraph entitled, "Core values"? Please dump this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.100.147 (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Sources Issue - YouTube
I noticed the youtube video of Knievel jumping at Caesar's Palace has the exact same text as this article? Who copied who? see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYGGCVE2lKY

There may be an accuracy issue here, too. The article says that the footage of the landing was shot by Linda Evans, "then-wife" of producer John Derek. However the date of the jump was December 31, 1967, and other sources give the dates of Evans' marriage to Derek as "1968-1974".

209.150.49.121 (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Parodies and tributes
Does anyone feel the "Parodies and tributes" category doesn't flow with the other areas? If so, does anyone have suggestions for improvement?--Docob5 (talk) 17:49, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Long lead
The lead was recently rewritten. However, since the rewrite, I believe the lead is too long. Can it possibly be shrinked down? Hey Mid  (contribs) 12:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. What a mess. The lead is now just a smaller version of the whole article. I'm about to do something bold, bordering on reckless. Mannafredo (talk) 10:03, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The lede is supposed to be a summary of the article, otherwise known as a 'small version' of it. I've reverted your action because you were quite correct - removing it and replacing it with a single line was beyond reckless, it's borderline vandalism tbh. If you don't have the patience to read 4,300 characters of summary, then don't read it. Don't presume other people are the same as you. The lede for this article is long, because Knievel had a pretty complex life. The main body of the article by comparison to the 'long' lede is over ten times longer, at 45,600 characters. 10:1 is an adequate summary, and the lede does not include anything that no normal reader would not consider the significant points, if they were just looking for a summary of what they might read in more detail, if they choose to go further into the main article. Read WP:LEDE, that's what it's for. Whatever you think a lede is, it's most certainly not a single line. MickMacNee (talk) 15:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree and attempted an edit to simplify and removed repeated information, but was reverted to the longer version (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evel_Knievel&diff=405988953&oldid=405942483) Docob5 (talk) 23:13, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Your edit also violated WP:LEDE. The lede is supposed to contain information that is in the main article, so deleting anything from a lede because it is "repeated" lower down in the main article makes no logical sense whatsoever. With your rather blunt edit, you effectively just left the first paragraph, in place of four (and LEDE states that for our longest articles, four paragraphs are appropriate), and what you left behind effectively just said he was an iconic stunt rider and entertainer who made 75 jumps including snake canyon, who broke 37 bones, got in the guinness book of records, and then died. As a summary of the main points of the article, that is completely unnacceptable. It is a summary of his notability, which is why it is the first paragraph, but a LEDE is not simply just an exercise in confirming to the reader that they have reached the right article. MickMacNee (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * it's still too long. MickMacNee, could you condense to met WP:LEDE?Docob5 (talk) 00:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As I already said, it already meets LEDE - four paragraphs is appropriate for such a long article. MickMacNee (talk) 13:34, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I get what you're saying about wp:lede I may well have made the same mistake here, and if so, I apologise to User:Gilsta. However, ‘see wp:lede’ is really all you had to write, rather than your TLDR-type rants (twice for some reason). I really don’t like your aspersion that I am impatient. I did indeed read just about all of the lead to check that it was all duplicated beneath, and I resent your vandalism swipe. So, rather than thank you for your efforts, and having spent a while looking back at your somewhat colourful/unconstructive wikipedia history, I do hope that I thoroughly upset your evening. Have you thought about anger management therapy? Mannafredo (talk) 11:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like I made an error on my first entry and the tabs are off. For the record, I agree with user:HeyMid and user:Mannafredo regarding the lengthy introduction to the article.Docob5 (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm never sure whether to keep tabbing out, or just tab out from the edit I'm replying to. Anyway, the 4 paragraphs are all very long in themselves, and one even contains mention of an elk cull and the Czechoslovakian hockey team in the same sentence - bizarre, to my mind. Mannafredo (talk) 14:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the lead is still way too long. It can & should be perhaps a quarter of this length. 93.96.236.8 (talk) 18:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Lead section rewrite suggested
There are a few problems with readability: "In 1977, Knievel served six months in jail for assault. After this conviction, Knievel's career suffered, causing him to declare bankruptcy following a $13 million award for damages to Saltman. " This is the first mention of Saltman, so it is confusing. Wistchars (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Shark Jump
All other sources, including the table of Knievel jumps, says the Chicago shark jump was January 31, 1977, rather than 1976. Changing the wording to avoid confusion. SteveJEsposito (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Linda Evans
This article says: "Derek used his then-wife Linda Evans as one of the camera operators." There is a link to the Wikipedia biography of Linda Evans, the famous actress and one-time wife of John Derek.

Elsewhere, on this page, it says that Kineval was married to "Linda Joan Bork (1959–97)" at the time referenced. Shouldn't the statement say that it was Linda Joan Bork who filmed the Ceasars Palace jump, and the link to Linda Evans be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorjones (talk • contribs) 14:50, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

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'international icon'
What is the basis for claiming that he was an "international icon"? No citation is provided and nothing in the article talks of an international career or reputation. I think this should be removed. --HenryPurcell (talk) 01:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

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'Painter'
Why on earth does this article describe Knievel as a 'painter' in the lede and infobox, despite the only other comment about painting being a single sentence stating that "During the 1980s, Knievel would drive around the country in a recreational vehicle, selling works of art allegedly painted by him." Utterly ridiculous... 31.48.240.84 (talk) 23:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Since nobody has responded, I'm going to remove the description from the infobox and lede, as entirely unmerited. 31.48.240.84 (talk) 23:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This seems to have been added back. No idea why, since the article provides no verifiable evidence of him actually painting anything of any significance. He seems at one point to have sold artwork, claiming it as his. Even if his claims were true (which is unproven), that doesn't merit the description in the lede, which would require evidence that his art was notable enough to be commented on. 86.149.219.138 (talk) 05:39, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * On doing further research, I have found a source on Knievel's 'art'. An obituary in the Daily Telegraph notes that after his release from jail, Knievel was "making a living from selling mediocre paintings". The Telegraph doesn't say whether the paintings were his, but even if they were, mediocrity seems a poor justification for describing him as a 'painter'. 86.149.219.138 (talk) 05:50, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * More, from a Slate obituary: "He peddled paintings that he signed as his own creations, though they were actually frauds." 86.149.219.138 (talk) 06:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Evel Knievel Painter
Evel Knievel did travel in 1985 to a Horse Stud in Marigold Texas commissioned by the owners of an Arabian Stallion "Patrone" purchased for us$5m.Commissioned Evel to paint a portrait of the horse. I met Evel at the ranch where I was also a guest at the time. I was extremely impressed by his actual skill as a painter. A photo of the Horse Portrait he completed during my stay was taken, enlarged to a poster and I still have that framed poster here in Australia to this day. I believe three Posters were actually produced of the original painting at the time. One retained by the Stud owner, one by myself and the third I do not know who ended up with it. Happy to provide a photo of the poster on request, and signature he applied to the artwork for any verification. The detail in the painting is exceptional. This was a commissioned work, certainly painted by his own hand which I was witness to being done.Travelling Fella (talk) 00:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC) Bob Ford Home Hill Qld Australia rgcford@bigpond.com

Bones vs Bone Fractures
Under "Jumps and Records" the last paragraph says the 433 bone fractures cited in Guiness Records could be a big exaggeration as Knievel and his son never claimed anything more than 35-50 broken bones. But isn't a bone fracture different from a broken bone? Cornelius (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Didn't get his transplanted liver from a motorcycle wreck victim
Noticed the following detail in the article under "Declining Health" subsection.

In February 1999, Knievel was given only a few days to live and he requested to leave the hospital and die at his home. En route to his home, Knievel received a phone call from the hospital stating a young man had died in a motorcycle accident and could be a donor. Days later, Knievel received the transplant.[4]

Citation points to Barker Stuart's biography, which I just looked up, but as much as I wished it was a motorcycle wreck, on p714 it just says "a car wreck in Miami." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.171.62.51 (talk) 06:37, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Is the IMDb advisory appropriate here?
Fellow Wikipedians, I noted the multiple issues box includes the IMDb advisory. When I actually looked at the citations, they are all linked to a list of movie titles, with none of the "disputed" or "inappropriate" content shown as examples in Citing IMDb. I propose that the advisory be removed. Bikerbudmatt (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


 * For this particular purpose citing IMDb is as good as citing the films themselves, which is what I just did. If somebody thinks further corroboration of these claims is necessary, IMDb won't do as the information being cited here is WP:UGC and thus not a reliable source. Daß Wölf 13:53, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Nickname
The way I heard it was: There was this guy, a few cells down the aisle from Knievel's jail cell, by the name of "Knofel". And it was the warden who jokingly referred to the two inmates as "awful kanoffel and evil kaneevel" (my choice of spelling here, for unambiguous pronunciation). Can't remember where I got that info from, but since the relevant section in the article is currently unsourced I thought I'd mention it. --BjKa (talk) 19:00, 8 August 2021 (UTC)