Talk:Evelyn Beatrice Hall

DOB and DOD
The year of Hall's birth seems to be reliably available from contemporary biographical articles, but the year 1919 incorrectly seems to have become widely circulated as the year of her death, despite accounts of contemporary correspondence or interviews as late as 1935, and it seems she was assumed to still be alive in some news reports as late as 1936. If anyone can uncover or provide more specific dates of birth or death it would be appreciated. ~ Kalki (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you haven't given any sources for the suggestion that 1919 as her year of death is not correct. It may be, but we can't check either way.  I know a ref is given to a quote of hers in the Saturday Review of 1935 - but do we know that she was living then, or was the journal quoting something she was known to have said before her death?  On the basis of verifiability not truth, I've reinstated 1919 with this citation, but with a question mark.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's pretty clear she lived to at least 1939. This contains a 1943 publication of a 1939 letter from her.John Z (talk) 06:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That certainly seems to be the case, although it's frustrating that it's not possible for most of us to access that source, and it would be useful to have at least some of the text of that letter here. I'll revise the article to give her death as "after 1939", but I don't think we have any more accurate information on that yet.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact, the first page of the article in question should be accessible for all, I think, see http://www.jstor.org/stable/2911066 - the link given by John Z above is the article immediately preceding the relevant one, but if you follow my link, I think you can read enough of the letter :-) Gestumblindi (talk) 20:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The UK maintains excellent records of births and deaths and has been running a national census of reasonable accuracy for best part of 2 centuries. An Evelyn Beatrice Hall giving her age as 42 living by "Private Means" is recorded in the census as living in Shooters Hill Kent, a related record with the same location exists in the 1901 census. If, given her private means, we assume she thus has no reason to move, searches of death records for evelyn+beatrice hall around London should throw up some strong evidence of actual date of death. Last known published work was 1919, she had produced new works every few years before then. Putt1ck (talk) 06:46, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not quite that simple. There was an Evelyn B. Hall (born c.1869) who died in Sussex in 1956.  There was also an Evelyn Beatrice Hall (b. c.1869) who died in Ireland in 1948, and an Evelyn Hall (b. c.1869) who died in Essex in 1939.  There may well be other candidates.  The point is that in none of these cases have we identified reliable secondary sources identifying which of these (if any) was "our" Evelyn Beatrice Hall. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:42, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It's surprising how little seems to be known of her private life. According to Homer Cox's biography of her brother-in-law Henry Seton Scott, her sister was named Ethel Frances Hall (1865-1943) and they were the daughters of "Canon Hall of St Paul's Cathedral". This is almost certainly Rev. William John Hall (Jnr) (1830-1910), who married Isabella Frances Cooper (1844-1909) in 1864. And this is probably the family household in the Censuses of 1871 and 1881. Evelyn's given name is mispelled "Eveline" in the latter. A younger brother named Arthur G J Hall (1871-1941) became a lawyer and wrote a book about divorce law. There was also a younger sister, Nora Geraldine Hall (1877-1926). Oddly, Isabella is not listed in the Censuses, nor can I find a birth record for Evelyn. Muzilon (talk) 11:21, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I took a stab in the dark and ordered the death certificate for the Evelyn B. Hall who died in Uckfield, Sussex in 1956. I think this must indeed be "our" Evelyn. Key details from the certificate:


 * {| class="wikitable"

WHEN AND WHERE DIED: 13 April 1956, Vespers, Wadhurst.
 * NAME: Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
 * NAME: Evelyn Beatrice Hall.
 * NAME: Evelyn Beatrice Hall.

AGE: 87.

OCCUPATION: Authoress, Spinster, Daughter of Hall, a [illegible - "Dean" or "Canon"?] in Holy Orders. CAUSE OF DEATH: senile degeneration.
 * }


 * With this information I managed to find a Trustee notice for Hall's estate in the London Gazette for May 1956. And a Probate record. I'll see if I can find more sources to update the article. Muzilon (talk) 07:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Great work! This source confirms 1956, for S. G. Tallentyre. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:37, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * PS: Her death certificate refers to her father as "Clerk in Holy Orders", I think. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:42, 1 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Great work indeed, thanks for solving our long-standing "mystery"! I will update the article in German-language Wikipedia with the information you found. Gestumblindi (talk) 11:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I'm still puzzled as to why I can't find a UK birth record online. Perhaps she was born outside the UK. (Or maybe she was adopted?) Muzilon (talk) 11:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I have found (via Ancestry.com) a baptism record for her - giving her date of birth as 28 September 1868. Evelyn Beatrice Hall, daughter of William John Hall and Isabella Frances Hall of Holbrooke, Shooters Hill, Kent, baptised on 29 October 1868 in the District of Christ Church, Shooters Hill.    Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:27, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Good one! I've just picked up a copy of Homer T. Cox's biography of Hall's brother-in-law, Henry Seton Merriman (Hugh Stowell Scott). Cox also confirms (p. 26) Hall's death as April 1956 - I'm surprised nobody had spotted this reference before. I've added a paragraph about her personal life. Muzilon (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * PS. Is the article now long enough that the "Stub" tags can be removed? Muzilon (talk) 06:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Absolutely - I've removed it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh great, now some Wikipedian has challenged the copyright status of the death certificate image. The UK National Archives assured me it was OK to upload this to Wikipedia under the Open Government Licence. I have posted an explanation on the relevant Wikipedia Commons page. Muzilon (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, copyright challenge overruled. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing... Muzilon (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Portrait
Where does the information that the painting "The Sword" by Alfred Agache is depicting Hall come from? The description page on Commons doesn't mention Hall at all, neither the description of the painting in Alfred Agache (painter). Gestumblindi (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I still haven't found any indication that the Agache painting is depicting Hall - also, the painting's description at the website of the Art Gallery of Ontario doesn't mention a name of the depicted person. The painting was added to the article with this edit in November 2009, and the references to the person in the painting being Hall I can find on the Web are all newer and seem to be based on this Wikipedia article, e.g. (2011), or  (2012). Gestumblindi (talk) 18:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That editor has made very few contributions since that time - you could try asking them, or add a "citation needed" tag, or simply remove the image from the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Given that the editor was last active in 2011 with a single minor edit, I think I'm just removing the image for the time being - would be great if someone can find a source for asserting the painting's subject :-) Gestumblindi (talk) 19:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I contacted the National Portrait Gallery in London to see if they have a portrait or photograph of Hall. Unfortunately, they don't. :( Muzilon (talk) 01:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I think I see now how it happened that this painting was (mistakenly) added as depicting Hall: On Wikiquote, quotes are often illustrated with "symbolic" images. In the case of Hall, the painting was added in early 2009 to illustrate the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - not, I think, with the assumption that the woman in the painting is Hall, but just as so many other pictures on Wikiquote to show something fitting the quote - here, a woman with a sword. The image is used to illustrate many other quotes, such as in wikiquote:Stendhal, wikiquote:Benjamin Tucker etc. - personally, I find this Wikiquote approach to liberally scatter quote collections with more or less thematically related images not very convincing. Anyway, apparently visitors of this Wikiquote page erroneously thought it's a painting of Evelyn Beatrice Hall, and thus added it to Wikipedia. I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to remove it from the Wikiquote page for Hall, as its use seems to be confusing. Gestumblindi (talk) 11:17, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

ISBNs of reprints
I noticed that for some of Hall's works, an ISBN is given here. However, there is a discrepancy: The actual editions mentioned are the original ones, e.g. The Life of Voltaire (1903), which of course don't actually have an ISBN - as the ISBN system was introduced in the 1970's. The ISBNs appearing here are referring to currently available reprints by a publisher called Intl Law & Taxation Publ - I guess probably printed on-demand; the editions are virtually non-existent in libraries, but available at Amazon etc. So, if we wanted to handle it in a bibliographically correct manner, we would have to list the reprints separately. But I feel inclined to remove these ISBNs altogether, as - although it might be seen as a bit of service to our readers - it looks more like advertising for a commercial reprinting service to me. - German Wikipedia gives also an ISBN for The Money-Spinner and Other Character Notes which is printed by BiblioBazaar - see article, "they see themselves less as publishers than as a software company" and create their catalogue "by means of an automated computerized process, using scanned text and generic stock photography for the covers". I have started a more general discussion regarding this matter in German-language Wikipedia (the general question: should we list ISBNs for this kind of reprints?), but maybe there's already an established practice here? Gestumblindi (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not clear what Wikipedia's policy is for including IBSN's for reprints of old books. Muzilon (talk) 03:01, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I have now added the full bibliographical data for the original editions (publisher, place of publication, correct year of first publication) according to the British Library's catalogue, but removed the reprint ISBNs, as they're not referring to the original editions. I think, if they're considered worth keeping, they should be added as additional entries with the reprint's publisher given; although, as said above, I think these ISBNs refer rather to a reprinting service than to actual new editions. Gestumblindi (talk) 21:11, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Article main title
François-Marie Arouet's article is titled not with his real name but instead his pen-name "Voltaire". For consistency, should this article correspondingly be titled with her pen-name "Stephen G. Tallentyre"? --Nanite (talk) 08:36, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You may have a point. WP:PSEUDONYM says "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's "real" name." But in that case her initials "S.G. Tallentyre" might be more appropriate? (cf. J.K. Rowling) Muzilon (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * See also George Eliot. I don't have a marked preference either way - I'm comfortable with the current title but wouldn't object strongly to a change!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * TBH I don't have a strong feeling either way, and I don't have any detailed knowledge -- just raising the possibility. At least Google trends shows that right now her real name is more popular. So that perhaps answers my question. --Nanite (talk) 21:55, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Shooters Hill Location
Forgive me if the American I am is missing something, but as far as I can tell, Shooters Hill is not located in Kent. It is part of Greater London. Just look at the Wikipedia article to which the location is linked to on this page. Is this a mistake? Dkelber (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No. It was historically - and at the time of her birth - within Kent, but I believe was incorporated in the new County of London in 1889. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:57, 17 January 2019 (UTC)