Talk:Every Nation Churches & Ministries/Archive Maranatha

Blueboy96's information on ties to Marantha, dialogue with jbolden1517
According to several links in the "external links" section, Broocks, Bonasso and Murrell were once part of Maranatha, and no fewer than five churches operate under corporate paperwork adopted while they were part of Maranatha.


 * I didn't ask you for evidence I'm asking you to cite what you consider to be the relationship. The article does a nice job on presenting "evidence" what it is lacking is a clear statement of the charge.  An answer would be something like, "Every Nation is the successor of Maranatha having absorbed most of its staff, its theology, ritual, methodology and function"  Or something like "Every Nation is a rebranding of Maranatha" (asserting a direct relationship).
 * Here are some clearer, NPOV statements from my last edit.


 * From the top page:
 * Several of Every Nation's leaders and ministries have past connections to Maranatha Campus Ministries, a highly controversial Charismatic organization from the 1980s. Some believe that Every Nation is simply Maranatha in a new guise--a claim denied by Every Nation and its leaders.


 * From "Links to Maranatha":

These corporate ties, combined with similarities in practice, have led some observers, including former Every Nation and Maranatha members, to conclude that Every Nation is simply a revived version of Maranatha.


 * I hope these help.

I noticed that Thelma left the "Links to Maranatha" section untouched in her edits.

IIf you feel that the first sentence about Every Nation and Maranatha is too POV, I can change it, no problem.


 * I don't have any opinion yet on any of the content. My opinions are about conduct and process.

2 - I personally believe, as a former Every Nation member, that there is uncontestable evidence that Every Nation is Maranatha. At the very least, Every Nation is a direct descendant of Maranatha (the organization's attempts to distance itself from the past notwithstanding) based on the substantial number of former Maranatha pastors, churches and ministries that are now part of Every Nation. For the sake of NPOV issues, I believe it should be noted that while several observers believe Every Nation is Maranatha, Every Nation maintains that it is a new organization.

3 - I propose rewording the whole first part of the "Links to Maranatha" section in a more neutral manner. For instance, replacing that sentence in question with: As mentioned above, several of Every Nation's leaders and churches have past ties to Maranatha Campus Ministries.  Then, after the paragraph about Every Nation's leaders being silent about their Maranatha past, mention this:  ''These corporate ties, combined with similarities in practice, have led some observers, including former Every Nation and Maranatha members, to conclude that Every Nation is simply a revived version of Maranatha. They note that the top positions in Every Nation are held almost exclusively by former Maranatha leaders (such as Broocks, Bonasso and Murrell), or were directly trained by someone who was in Maranatha.'' I figured POV issues were the main bone of contention here, so I revised it last night in hopes of addressing them. It was certainly not my intent to alter the process.


 * I don't know what her issues are, my first step is to ask her for clarification. My main proposal is that most of the Maranatha stuff gets pulled out and we have a very short section which simply asserts the fact and then we move on.  "have led some observers to conclude" is classic WP:WEASEL we aren't going to have "some observers" we are going to have a clear cut source like (xyz anti-cult group, abc group of former members...).  By in large the why Maranatha is the father  of Every Nation only needs lots of elaboration if there is a firm denial. I'm actually hoping for consensus language on this point, which I think is far better than an argument of any kind.    However until I get a firm denial one I'm not sure that level of detail is needed.   Then all the insinuations throughout the article get dropped regardless.    Once Every Nation is categorized properly it can be dealt with like any other subdominational church group.  See something like Unitarianism  for what I'm aiming for.    If the whole article is going to center around the controversy then I want facts addressed.  Society of St. Pius X would be an example of a highly controversial religious group with a well written article focusing mainly on the controversy.
 * As an aside think about the problem she faces from her side if she tries for a denial.
 * same primary denomination
 * same theology
 * same target audience
 * same leadership
 * some shared physical resources
 * same ritual
 * similar technique
 * etc, etc. etc...
 * Would you want to have to defend the firm denial case? I doubt she goes down that road which is why I think we can get consensus language.

Hope this helps. Blueboy96 20:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes it does. Thank you. jbolden1517Talk  22:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Since jbolden wanted to see corporate evidence linking the two groups financially, I've got a couple that are whopping coincidences at best and smoking guns at worst.


 * 1) 1990:  In May, Ron Lewis, pastor of King's Park International Church (-the church I came out of) files himself as the North Carolina registered agent for "Maranatha Campus Ministries, International"--a new Florida-incorporated entity that was formed shortly before Maranatha "broke up."  This Florida-incorporated entity then files a certificate of authority in Texas in November, and Lewis appears as the vice president.  Although there has been no activity by Maranatha Campus Ministries, International" since at least 1990 (according to the timeline linked in the external links section), the North Carolina and Texas certificates are still valid today.  Lewis has been pastor of KPIC since its founding in 1981 as the Carolina chapter of Maranatha (though it claims a 1990 founding date, it was formally incorporated in 1986 under the laws of North Carolina), and is one of Every Nation's top leaders.


 * 1) 1994:  Massachusetts certificate of authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. (Maranatha's original Kentucky corporation) lapses a full four years after Maranatha breaks up--and eight months after Every Nation is formed as Morning Star International.

Part 3
Boy, this is getting complicated ...

I have no objection to the Maranatha stuff being restricted to a designated section.

The doctrine section as it stood before Thelma arrived should stand, with some minor tweaking to address any POV issues. Remember, people are using this project as a source for papers now, and the original section was, as I saw it, a pretty good intro for those unfamiliar with the subject. That sentence on the poor being unemphasized definitely has to go, though ... one of the few good things I have to say about these guys is that their churches were pretty diverse. Much of the evidence in that section comes from personal experiences from numerous Every Nation refugees ... see FactNet's message board for some of the more lurid examples. And if you don't want to sift through it all, I blogged on it two years ago. Maybe as a compromise, we could include both EN's official statement combined with reports of what has happened from other members.

My original first paragraph in the "Links to Maranatha" section was probably the best way to go ... addresses the bone of contention in a concise manner. Forgive me--it's the journalist in me coming out.

Where the Paul Daniel affair fits in ... there are questions about how much EN's leaders knew about the scandal and when they knew it.

The Victory Clubs affair in Nashville should stay. Victory Clubs--now known as Every Nation Youth--has been a major part of Every Nation for a long time. And the big scandal here is that if these charges are proven to be true, it would at a minimum torpedo Every Nation's effort to distance itself from Maranatha. The allegations are very similar to what got Maranatha in trouble back in the 1980s.

More response from Blueboy96
OK, let's rock and roll ...

I don't see what's wrong with noting that Broocks, Bonasso and Murrell are former Maranatha ministers ... what's POV about listing past affiliations? It can be done in a neutral manner. Previous versions of that statement did not include anything accusatory.
 * Nothing do you have any objection to this being in a dedicated section and not addressed throughout the article? Their complaint is where it is, they agree these people are EN leaders and they agree that 20 years ago they were in Maranatha.  jbolden1517Talk  05:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

More later today--like I said, it's gonna take awhile to sift through all this, and I don't want to miss anything. Blueboy96 13:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thelma and Misha's Proposed Edits to Links to Maranatha Section
''Re-title as Criticism. Per the suggestion of jbolden, we are proposing to move all of the discussion on Maranatha to this section, which will contain an "on the record" statement regarding our connections to Maranatha.''


 * Some former members of Maranatha and Every Nation contend that Every Nation is a rebranding of Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM) – a campus ministry founded by Bob Weiner. While it is true that several Every Nation pastors, including Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrell, were active as campus ministers in Maranatha in the 1980’s, Every Nation unequivocally rejects the excessive teachings and practices of MCM, specifically: controlling discipleship, authoritarian leadership, and theological mysticism. Broocks, Bonasso and Murrell fully supported the dissolution of MCM in 1989, after which the majority of its churches changed their names and continued to function as local churches. Some joined Vineyard, Foursquare Gospel, or a variety of other denominations and networks. Others merged with local churches, dissolved or became independent. Today there are over 400 Every Nation churches worldwide, of which approximately 15 (or less than 4%) were formerly Maranatha churches.

''Whereas in the previous versions these issues and the scandals were made to be the entire focus of the article, and accounted for about 80% of the total content. If the purpose of this entry is to try and create a “great encyclopedia article,” I do not believe it is fair to give so much space to Maranatha and the scandals – first, for every bad apple (any organization this large is bound to have bad apples – we acknowledge that fact – just ask the Roman Catholic Church or the Republican Parties) there are 1,000 good testimonies of people whose lives have been changed for the better, of relationships restored, familes reconciled, people who overcame drug and alcohol dependency, etc. We can add all of these if you want us to but I would rather appeal to Blueboy that we keep this article to be written like an encyclopedia and move the “Maranatha” discussion back to the blogs and internet discussion forums. EN does not deny that Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrell were part of Maranatha in the 1980’s as young campus ministers in their 20’s. However, EN has been making every effort in the past couple of years to root out negative practices and doctrine precisely because that is not condoned. We are realistic enough to acknowledge that there probably still are bad apples in the mix but the fact remains that if any Maranatha-style doctine or practices have crept into an EN church, it is still not official doctrine or policy or practice, nor is it condoned.'' Every Nation 09:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed the into paragraph into a meld of your and BlueBoy's ideas. Let me know if this captures what you were aiming for.  jbolden1517Talk  14:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Request to Move Scandals/Links to Maranatha to Talk Page
I would like to request again for the removal of the Scandals and Links to Maranatha sub-sections, to be replaced by my suggested re-write under the new sub-heading Criticism. Since the burden of proof rests with Blueboy, I'm asking if we can remove those sections to the Talk Page until this mediation has been resolved. Thank you! Thelma Bowlen 07:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I disagree on the Links to Maranatha section. Much of that has already been verified.Blueboy96 07:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Edits to Links to Maranatha Section
''Re-title as Criticism. Per the suggestion of jbolden, we are proposing to move all of the discussion on Maranatha to this section, which will contain an "on the record" statement regarding our connections to Maranatha.''

Some former members of Maranatha and Every Nation contend that Every Nation is a rebranding of Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM) – a campus ministry founded by Bob Weiner – a claim that Every Nation maintains is false. While it is true that several Every Nation pastors, including Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrell, were active as campus ministers in Maranatha in the 1980’s. . . Thelma BowlenTalk 14:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Part 2
OK, let's get going again.

I propose the following paragraph be included at the beginning:

''Some of Every Nation's ministers and ministries have past ties to Maranatha Campus Ministries, a controversial Charismatic organization from the 1980s. Every Nation has publicly renounced Maranatha's more controversial teachings and practices. Some members contend, however, that some of these teachings are still practiced, and even go as far to say that Every Nation is a revived Maranatha. Every Nation, however, strongly denies this.''


 * See the new intro paragraph and tell me if it meets your criteria. jbolden1517Talk  14:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As I see it, this statement identifies a major bone of contention in an NPOV manner.

On that note ... as previously mentioned, I am one of those who believes that Every Nation is a revived Maranatha. However, at the very least, there is nearly uncontestable evidence from corporate and historical records that Every Nation is a direct descendant of Maranatha. I think a few of the more egregious examples should be noted somewhere in the article. For example:

1990
 * May 2: Ron Lewis, pastor of Maranatha Christian Church of the Triangle (what is now King's Park International Church--the church I was briefly part of) files himself as the North Carolina registered agent for "Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc."  This corporation was incorporated in Florida in February 1989, a few months before  Maranatha announced its dissolution.  Lewis claims to have left Maranatha in the late 80s because of concern over the group's teachings and practices --but I can't see how he can credibly explain this.  What's more, this certificate of authority is still valid in North Carolina today, even though there has been no verifiable activity from this corporation since 1993. Also, the registered agent address is the same location where KPIC met from the early 1990s until 2002. Lewis has been a major leader in Morning Star/Every Nation for most of its existence.
 * June 1: Florida-incorporated Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. takes over the P.O. box in Gainesville, Florida previously used by Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. (one of two Kentucky-incorporated entities under which Maranatha operated during its existence).  This is seven months after Maranatha "dissolved."  An Ohio certificate of authority was filed a month later, listing this P.O. box as a mailing address.
 * August 2: Maranatha Campus Ministries, International, Inc. files a certificate of authority in Texas.  Ron Lewis is listed as vice president.  However, this entity had changed its name to "Campus Ministries International, Inc." in July--the same name the old Maranatha organization adopted after the breakup earlier in the year.  Also, this certificate of authority is still valid in Texas today.  Lewis, as mentioned above, is one of Every Nation's major leaders.  See for yourself at the Texas Secretary of State homepage--though you have to pay a fee to get it.
 * November 28: Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. (the other Kentucky-incorporated entity under which Maranatha operated) transfers control of the Champions for Christ logo and name to Word of Life Church in Midland, Texas--which is now Mid-Cities Community Church, a part of Every Nation.  This is over a year after Maranatha "dissolved," and a month after the two old Maranatha corporations officially ceased to exist.  Broocks was reportedly based at this church for a time after Maranatha broke up.

1992
 * August 31: Maranatha Christian Churches, Inc. transfers control of the Champions for Christ logo and name to Champions for Christ International, incorporated in 1990.  This is almoost two years after Maranatha dissolved and its two Kentucky corporations legally ceased to exist.  Champions for Christ became a part of Every Nation when it was formed in 1994 as Morning Star International.
 * Beginning of 1992-93 school year: Triangle Christian Fellowship starts an outreach at Carolina, Waymaker Christian Fellowship.  TCF became KPIC in 1997.  KPIC claims a 1990 founding date, but in truth it was incorporated as Maranatha Christian Church of the Triangle in 1986.  This church, in turn, grew out of Maranatha's various outreaches in the Triangle, starting in 1981 at Carolina.  Waymaker, which changed its name to UNC Victory Campus Ministries in 2002 and to UNC Every Nation Campus Ministries in 2005, is therefore the direct descendant of Maranatha's original outreach to Carolina.

1994
 * November 4: Massachusetts certificate of authority for Maranatha Christian Church, Inc. is allowed to lapse.  However, this corporation had not even legally existed for four years.

1996
 * November 22: Champions for Christ, International refiles the old Maranatha-era Champions for Christ logo, as well as the name "Champions for Christ," with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. It claims the first use of this logo and name was October 1986--thus claiming that it is the same entity that existed in the Maranatha era.  However, Champions for Christ had its Texas incorporation papers yanked by the Texas Secretary of State for failure to submit an annual report eight months earlier.  While it did not legally exist again until 1998, it still continues to operate during this time.

OK, enough for now. More response later. Blueboy96 17:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

History edits (thelma and misha)
Inserting the phrase “former Maranatha ministers” immediately puts an immediate negative bias on the article. This would be akin to starting George W. Bush’s entry with: “In 2000, former alcholic George Bush became the 43rd president of the United States.” Or Bill Clinton’s with: “In 1994, adulterer William Jefferson Clinton became the 42nd president of the United States.” Again, I appeal for the Maranatha issue to be dealt with in one section at the bottom so that Every Nation is shown the same courtesy as other entries in Wikipedia.Misha Arturovich 09:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This is still a point in dispute. We'll get it out but not in this round.  We still are disputing whether Marantha became Morning Star International became Every Nation.  This is going to take a couple more rounds to get moved, since I'm still aiming for consensus language in the maranatha section and you haven't agreed to anything quite this strong.  Basically the question is drop, rewrite or move, and I'm not sure which yet.  jbolden1517Talk  20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * You are making a good point here. Blueboy what evidence do we have that " It [Every Nation] has a vision especially for changing the arts and entertainment industries"?  jbolden1517Talk  20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

An example of a planted church is the church in New York City in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy known as Morning Star New York (MSNY). Acquired Existing...


 * These are churches that choose to join – it is not mergers and acquisitions. “Acquired” is a loaded term that tries to imply that it was a takeover.Misha Arturovich 09:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thelma or EN, what is the financial relationship between EN and its member churches? jbolden1517Talk  20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

remnants of a Maranatha founded church in Beacon City Church in Boston,
 * There were less than 15 former Maranatha churches which later changed their names and joined Every Nation – this has already been addressed in the paragraph titled criticisms below. Again, Maranatha should not be the focus of this article. If that is to be said, it is equally fair to identify the In Focus Church as a former Southern Baptist Church, etc.Misha Arturovich 09:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What was the order here, SB -> Mar -> MSI or Mar -> SB -> MSI or ...? I also agree on the focus issue but lets separate the two issues out for now. jbolden1517Talk  20:24, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Answers to MSI/EN questions
Replies to jbolden questions re MSI and EN


 * 1) Thelma and Misha I was kind of shocked by the harsh language regarding Maranatha.
 * 2) What do you believe they did that was so wrong?
 * 3) Also can you explain to me what differences in theology, doctrine and practice there is between EN and Maranatha.
 * 4) It sounds like the fact that MSI was the old name for Every Nation is not disputed? Is this correct?
 * 5) What percentage of the existing Maranatha churches became MSI churches? In 1994 how many MSI churches were there (i.e. what percentage of MSI was Maranatha)? Since you both agree that Marantha / MSI / Every Nation is rapidly growing I need to put the 15 churches in context.


 * Easy question first – there is no disputing that Every Nation was formerly known as MSI (we added a section about the reasons behind the name change in the proposed re-write for the History section).


 * There were three primary things that were wrong with the teaching and practices of Maranatha: authoritarian leadership, controlling discipleship, and theological mysticism. The difference between EN and Maranatha is that EN believes all of these were completely wrong and does not promote or condone any such practices. The way they have been addressed is as follows:


 * Re: authoritarian leadership and controlling discipleship, this has been addressed in EN’s official discipleship policy (which we have referenced elsewhere) that sets out very clear limits re what a leader or discipler can and cannot do. This issue is often addressed by Steve Murrell, as you can see from his article “Position or Power?” on the everynation.org website, and his sermon called “Discipleship Boundaries,” also on the website. This was also directly addressed in Rice Broocks’ book, “Every Nation in Our Generation” (published in 2002) which devotes a good part of chapter 2 to the problems with Maranatha and what he did to try and learn from the mistakes of the past. Re theological mysticism, Broocks states that there were “concerns that mysticism had crept in, placing too much emphasis on subjective experiences rather than the Word of God” (p.49). Maranatha was also criticised for a lack of sound theological foundations. As a result, after Maranatha disbanded, Rice Broocks enrolled in Reformed Theological Seminary and earned his masters degree. This is also one of the primary reasons the two-year Bible School, ENLI, was developed by Steve Murrell and adopted as the local bible school for all of EN’s churches. Thelma BowlenTalk  14:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Feel sorry for you jbolden. You're caught between two people who are not really interested in the the truth. Blueboy has an axe to grind because he was hurt in the campus ministry at UNC, and I don't know who Thelma is but she definitely giving you the EN PR spin. That discipleship policy for example is completely new. The reason they have a policy at all is because of all of thep problems. Shocking that the entire LA scandal deleted since it has rocked the whole ministry. After she and blueboy finish arguing, perhaps I'll come back and tell you the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anonymou (talk • contribs)

comment from Anonymou 2 months ago
This wasn't archived but I want to put it here

Those who argue for discontinuity between Maranatha's and Every Naiton, point out that Bob Weiner, founder and driving force behind Maranatha is in no way a part of Every Nation. This is significant, because Bob had direct control over every aspect of Maranatha, and therefore his personality had enormous impact. Moreover they claim that the more extreme practices of Maranatha have been brought into a healthier balance in Every Nation.

SO WHAT ???
That's the question we have to ask.

Wikipedia exists for the USER of the encyclopedia, not for those who want to vent their spleens.

A user of the encyclopedia wants to know essential facts about a person, organization, or event.

The fact that various people  *SUSPECT*  that Every Nation has not sufficiently reformed from Maranatha, or want to make accusations against Every Nation, must be met with the question --  "SO WHAT?"

And the answer to that question immediately clarifies the inappropriate nature of this content.

The answer to "so what?" is that these writers WANT TO HURT THE CHURCH by persuading people NOT TO ATTEND and try it out. Their goal is not to INFORM -- their goal is to HARM the church.

No encyclopedia should contain what people SUSPECT to be true. And no encyclopedia should have as its goal to HELP or HARM an organization described.

If the only relevance of proposed content is to try to persuade people not to go to Every Nation, then it is clearly improper content. (Contrast this with neutral information:  An article says the XYZ church specializes in country music and let's say maybe I don't like country music so I don't visit their church.  I am talking about content whose only justification for being in the article is to "warn" away from the church, to intentionally harm the church, with no other reason for the content to be in the article.)

JonMoseley