Talk:Everything2/Archive 1

Praise for the article
This is a quite a good article! Many people browsing around might wonder what the differences are between the two projects. There's a bit of a bias against Everything2 here, so a balanced article is nice to see. ;-) --Stephen Gilbert


 * In taking a Stalinist view, I give praise to those who delete others' written works, especially after reading the deleters' personal writings and seeing that thier works are no better and no worst than that of those who they delete. I give praise to thier fascist hierarchy, thier unfairness, thier selfishness. This is a true reflection of society in general. A society where those with power often abuse it, where those who are at the top of the social ladder not just control, but make the laws. It is a true dictatorship with full censorship controls. I praise them for burning the books and leaving no traces. I praise them for perpetuating thier lie that Everything2 is a place for freedom and democracy. Joseph Stalin would have been proud!


 * What is most interesting about e2 is that it is one of the few sites on the web that rewards virtually all of its prolific members with administrative control. That is, writers of quality *and* quantity are relatively quickly moved into the editor/admin echelon of the site. At almost no other site does the pure merit of your own writing grant you such power at the site. Instead, most sites are simply maintained by one or two operators to the exclusion of all others, no matter their input or perceived value. - kthejoker


 * "I praise them for perpetuating thier lie that Everything2 is a place for freedom and democracy."


 * I've been at E2 for a long time and have never once heard anybody in the administration or management say that E2 is a place for freedom and democracy.
 * E2 is not a government. Is Time Magazine "Stalinist" because you have to toe the company line to be a contributing writer?
 * Seriously. Bag the commie egalitarian thing. --Halspal

Soft links
I would like to see some information about how the list of "soft links" at the bottom of every node is generated. --AxelBoldt


 * A "soft link" is generated every time anyone clicks on a "hard link" in a writeup or when they visit another node using the search mechanism. What results is a list of related "nodes" that the reader can choose to follow.  Sometimes there are irrelevant soft links, but for the most part you get an interesting way to link related writeups.
 * They currently allow up to 48 soft links per "node". The most visited links show up at the top of the list.


 * To be specific, whenever you visit a page, the last page's address is included in the url when you request this page. These pairs of addresses (which is to say, the actual page name from the software's view) are crunched, and the pages with the most number of times people requesting them are weighted accordingly. --Maru (talk) Contribs 03:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Softlinks contained within the grid

 * Clarified. --Damian Yerrick


 * Is the grid of related topics at the bottom of every node different from what you call "soft links"? If yes, how is that grid created? From what you wrote about "soft links", it seems that a soft link does exactly the same as the browser's "back" button. Is that correct? --AxelBoldt


 * Yes, the grid below the writeups contains the soft links. It's like a back button with state; go from writeup A to B, and a link back to A is created at the bottom of B.  Changing "and places it" to "adding it to a list"... --Damian Yerrick

Softlinks
The softlink section needs a bit of expansion and clarification. Brief list of the relevant items:
 * The number of softlinks is actually unlimited, but the number visible can change: "Guest User" (anyone viewing a page without having logged in) can see 24 softlinks; ordinary logged-in users can see up to 48; senior administrators ("Gods") can see up to 64. (These administrators can also delete inappropriate softlinks, though they do not often do so.)
 * Nodes without writeups ("nodeshells", in E2's jargon) can be softlinked. Documents and superdocs (the "special pages") do not display softlinks, nor do the users' "homenodes".
 * (I'm not entirely sure that this belongs in the article) Insulting softlinks: Everything2 noders can and do use softlinks to make anonymous comments on other users' writings; a writeup containing numerous misspellings will often be softlinked to the node titled "Learn how to spell", for example.

Also adding a bit on the Chatterbox and messaging system. The Chatterbox and message systems are not, strictly speaking, "real-time". Political Asylum and "borging" should be mentioned. Also also: a bit more on what people write: encylopedia articles, fiction, poetry, and journals.

Change in number of softlinks displayed at E2
There are no longer 24 softlinks. --Anon.

Gendered terminology

 * "Every time a user creates a writeup, she earns one experience point (XP)."

Male is the default gender in english. Theoretical subjects should be described as "He", "Him" or "His" in english rather then "She", "Her" or "Hers". The modern exception to this rule is the politically correct "He/She", "Her/Him" and "His/Hers". --Rlee0001 21:57 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)


 * Actually, it's become quite common in the last 30 years to see the feminine rather than the masculine as the default. For one thing, it drives home how annoying it is to women to see that "he" all the time.  On the other hand, what is happening in the living language is that both the "he" and the "she" are being supplanted by the soon-not-to-be-ungrammatical "they".  --Ortolan88


 * Writers are increasingly using "he/she" (a bit ugly on the eye, clumsy to read), "they" (offends purists, but in use since the 16th C), or trying to use "he" or "she" in equal proportions. Another option that is sometimes suitable is "one". --Tarquin 07:51 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)


 * I don't care what grammatical gender a writer uses, as long as I can understand them. I tend to use either he or they for the neuter (i.e., inclusive) pronoun, depending on my audience, and I'm usually capable of understanding sentences like:
 * A writer deserves all the support she can get.


 * Just don't try homogenizing sayings like, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!" --Ed Poor


 * Although an interesting linguistic discussion, I don't think this is really important for the article (or any other article). If somebody doesn't like the "he"/"she"/"they"/whatever in the text : just change it since there's no way we're going to make a Wikipedia standard or "style convention" for this. --Jeronimo 07:57 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)


 * Actually, I make a point of restraining myself from changing "incorrect" usage such as centre and civilised to center and civilized because I don't want to be America-centric. I guess I can tolerate it when a gender-conscious author exercises his or her preferences :-) --Ed Poor


 * Exactly, it's OK with me in any way, because nothing is incorrect in this aspect. And it's also OK if somebody goes and "corrects" text by changing my UK English to US English. But I won't stop "analysing" and "criticising" Wikipedia articles ;-) --Jeronimo


 * The easiest way to avoid arguments is to pluralize. Instead of "Every time a user creates a write-up, he earns 1 XP," says "Every time uses create write-ups, they earn 1 XP," for example. &mdash;Casey J. Morris 22:11, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Guide for E2 noders
Some of the material in this article is more suited to a Guide for Everything2 Noders. I'd start it myself, but since I'm not an Everything2 contributor, I'm not the best candidate. Any takers? --Stephen Gilbert 15:37 Nov 14, 2002 (UTC)

Site is down
The site went down in mid-November 2003. Last update on the site's status was November 30. After how much downtime should I change the verbs to past tense? --Damian Yerrick


 * You shouldn't. The site just went back up at a new address, which I've noted in the article. --MIRV 21:27, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Availability
I'm curious if it's worth noting that Everything2 is very frequently swamped and near-inaccessible. Is this popularlity outstripping capacity? Or is this just me? --User:140.180.137.120


 * Everything2 appears to be down currently. This is probably remaining instability after the move (which appeared to include updating to a new version of Perl, which introduced some problems).  Messages, chatbox and homenode pictures locked up mid-afternoon Pacific time yesterday, and later on the site itself went offline.  No explanation posted apart from a sarcastic message. --&mdash;Morven 12:11, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Reference work characterization
Why was ''Wikipedia is generally a more complete reference work. '' removed? I'm sure it's a true statement. Wikipedia has more nodes, and a higher percentage of them are factual. It's not uncommon for E2 nodes to reference Wikipedia as a research source. I've never seen the reverse. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.102.228 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:11, 21 August 2004.


 * Look at R. A. Lafferty then. --maru (talk) contribs 03:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

community2
For what it is worth, I am unable to connect to community2.org % telnet www.community2.org 80 Trying 209.120.206.37... telnet: connect to address 209.120.206.37: Connection refused telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused This, combined with the fact that it was not previously open to the public means it should not be listed in Related projects (it is silly to list every 'under construction' page that fails to even resolve anymore). If it comes back later, feel free to enter the discussion of "should it be listed even if it is not open to the public".

"Good" material
The adjective "good" in the sentence "Although Everything2 does not seek to become an encyclopedia [...], a substantial amount of factual content has been submitted to Everything2, which is therefore accumulating a substantial body of good material." seems vague (and POV) to me. I am reluctant to change it, however, because I am not sure what the write is trying to convey. I guess that it means "objective and factual" but it could be a judgement of the general quality of the material. --Theo (Talk) 17:23, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. It sounds like it's making a judgement for the reader.  I've read some of the factual content and some of them are filled with some outdated or incorrect data.  Most of the time it's hard to update or fix them because the original writer hadn't visited the site for months, so messaging them is useless.  It's arguable that having factual content like that is considered "good".  I'll take it out. --CHALK 07:10, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Point of View

 * "The userbase, like the Internet in general, tends to lean left politically and culturally."

This is perhaps true for E2, but needs to be backed up or motivated. I don't know if it is possible to say the same about the internet in general (or even the www). And even if it is, presently, the situation will probably change as more and more people are coming online. Also, we tend to notice things we agree with/approve of, and so it might appear that a group is more left than right only because we only travel those places that appeal to us.


 * You must be kidding. The majority of Internet users are young, and the majority of youths are liberal. &mdash;Casey J. Morris


 * If this is the basis of the above observation then a source should be cited. My own observation is that internet users on collaborative sites like e2, slashdot, and kuro5hin tend to be more libertarian than liberal.  But I freely admit this is my own POV, and it's not like I can dig up a study to confirm that.  Same with the above generalization, imo.  If you can substantiate it with a citation, great.  If not we should remove the POV statement, as per wikipedia guidelines.  69.113.82.135 04:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Censorship
You might want to mention the rampant censorship. Check out the history of the 'harvey mudd college' article on everything2 if you don't believe me --Anon.


 * Writeups on e2 don't record history data


 * thats why censorship is so easy. douglas adams would make fun

of you people, your hypocrisy is utterly devastating. you are the vogons of the internet.


 * With such astute wit and sharply-observed prose it remains a mystery as to why your writeups were deleted. --Ascorbic 22:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * E2 heavily promotes censorship for ideas the administration doesn't support. The banning of DMan and the removal of several conservative writeups shows a prediliction towards liberal slanted content. I myself had several entirely factual writeups removes because they support conservative viewpoints. DMan was forced to leave (as other non-liberals were and harassed) because his viewpoints did not jive with the admins and he was demonized for such. This attitude is the reason I (and others like myself) left Everything2 for Wikipedia and I firmly believe it should be mentioned in the article. --RevRaven 07:23 26 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * DMan was banned because of his behaviour towards other users, not his politics. --ascorbic 17:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Specifically DMan used the "c word" about a woman user in message and then was shown the door. It is true, however, he was not well liked because of his political point of view by many users (and actually liked by many other influential users). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mindme (talk • contribs) 11:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Organizational hierarchy
The truly annoying thing about E2 is the structure of the organizational hierarchy. Suffice it so say that any organization whose members of highest standing are called, not Editors, but Gods.


 * Think Greek gods.


 * I don't buy this, based on the other level names.


 * Gods is not a level.


 * Even I think calling yourself a 'god' is offensive, and I'm agnostic!


 * Most of the time, gods call themselves admins or editors anyway.

And this in turn creates a power complex in some users. If for some reason these "gods" are displeased with your writeups they can summarily delete them, which also decrements your "Experience Points".


 * The editors rarely exercise the -5 XP penalty, and even then only on patent nonsense.


 * Well, for some reason I posted a bunch of decent, readable articles and kept losing points and getting smart-ass remarks (like "you're not learning are you - go read some more writeups and figure out what you did wrong.")


 * I had good articles torpedoed because I used incorrect capitalization in my subject headings, for example, or followed the lead of other articles that the "gods" didn't happen to approve of.


 * You shouldn't be "following the lead" of anything. Each writeup should stand alone and should make sense even if all other writeups in that node are deleted.


 * What I mean by this is that I read a LOT of articles before posting any, and I wrote them in the spirit of everything2 as I saw it, and I got penalized for it. Specifically I remember filling in several empty nodeshells with a small bit of useful information then having those entries deleted because they weren't long enough


 * New noders tend to be judged more harshly on Everything2. Anyway, write intelligent, long and accurate writeups until you get to level 3 or so and then the editors won't mind if you excersise some creativity. And while "rescuing nodeshells" is encouraged, no writeup there is better than a substandard one.


 * I agree with the guy above the guy above me. I found the everything2 mods/gods/arrogant_asses to be a most unwelcoming, judgemental lot. I too "posted a bunch of decent, readable articles and kept losing points and getting smart-ass remarks". Had them deleted. Sure, not great literary masterpieces, but there are far stupider nodes up there. The gods have some pretty bad wrtie-ups too, and I don't see anyone deleting them. In simple terms: Wikipedia pwns Everything2. JohnathanZX4 20:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm a longtime E2 user, former site editor and a professional writer out in the real world. I've had professional editors alter the content of my essays, before publishing them, to such an extent that they became fictitious -- then threaten me with removal when I called them on it. I'd like to see the Stalinists over at E2 top that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.39.200 (talk) 04:10, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Judgment of the hierarchy

 * "The editors can and do delete writeups that do not meet their editorial standards. Besides E2's complex and formalised social hierarchy, this is something that discourages many new users, particularly as their writeups tend to be judged more harshly than those of higher "levels"."

The latter sentence seems a subjective judgement. Some people have complained about the unfair treatment of newer users- there's a famous debate about this on E2, to which I would link were the site not down -- but the claim that "many" are discouraged by this treatment is, while apparently plausible, unverified and unverifiable opinion. There are over 70,000 user accounts at E2 (I think; the servers are down, so I can't check), and there's no reliable or accurate information on how many people are discouraged by the behavior of the editors, none at all.

So I'm going to roll this page back to the previous version. Comments are welcome. (forgot to log in on previous edit) --Mirv 00:48, 14 Nov 2003


 * Perhaps "can discourage new users" would be better? --Ashley Y 01:15, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Reinstating without "many". --Ashley Y 02:38, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Or maybe "sometimes discourage new users" -- but I really think that in-depth discussion of E2 "society" is best left out. Here is why:


 * This "metacore"- website politics - stuff is extremely complex: everyone has an opinion, and every opinion is different. Documenting every POV would take up way too much space, and it wouldn't be very interesting or relevant: detailed discussions of one specific group's social interactions bore anyone not directly involved. Imagine a total stranger going on and on about everything that everyone in his social sphere has done over the past four years (E2 recently passed its four-year anniversary) in dry, encylopedic style. Not very interesting, is it? (General metacore discussion, on the other hand, is a fascinating topic for anyone who spends much time in online communities- Clay Shirkey's 'A Group is Its Own Worst Enemy' is a good overview.)


 * I agree POVs should be left out. But my statements aren't actually POV, are they? I think of POV as something others would contend, but you haven't done that (except for "many", which I corrected). --Ashley Y


 * Last, E2's administration has effectively banned such discussion from the site's body of work- partly for the reasons described above- so the internal politics are almost entirely undocumented. I know of one good- and it's very good - piece on E2 society. (Even this article, though, is about a year and a half out of date, which is a long time for an online community. The site's society has changed considerably since the piece was written.)
 * So let's leave E2 internal politics out of this article, okay? Either that, or wait until the site comes back up, load the E2 User Survey article, and use its information to write an general overview of the site's social dynamics- if it's decided that such discussion belongs here. I'm against it, but what do you think? --Mirv 03:08, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm not so much interested in the "internal politics" of E2 than reporting on the behaviour and complaints of new users, a number of which can be found on this site (there's one above, for instance, and not by me). Whether those complaints are justified is a POV/political/whatever matter the discussion of which might be saved for a separate "balanced" section (or not). The existence of complaints however is something that should be mentioned regardless, as an uncontested fact (unless you choose to contest it, of course). --Ashley Y


 * Point that I forgot: Discussion of politics either needs to be comprehensive, since that's the only way it can approach neutrality, or non-existent: even mentioning that new users are sometimes discouraged by the editors and the social hierarchy- without mentioning the fact that many new users grow to love the site and contribute regularly, or the other reasons people have for leaving- is not neutral; it implies that this is general knowledge, when in fact it's someone's subjective opinion.
 * (My own highly subjective, arrogant, and entirely wrong opinion on the matter, which some others share and is true in some, though not all, cases, is this: New users leave the site not because of editorial actions, but because they're thin-skinned, self-centered little shits who can't handle any kind of criticism and don't understand why their unformatted rants about "My shitty day at work" and their god-awful angsty teenage poetry and articles copied directly from plagiarism.com get deleted and expect everyone to shower them with praise and flowers and skateboards just for deigning to spend five minutes barfing the utterly worthless contents of their brain across the site -- but that opinion doesn't belong in the article, does it, except as part of a general report on users' opinions of the site, and I can't believe this is all one sentence.)


 * Obviously getting deleted (for whatever reason) is an editorial action, and it's precisely this action that drives away (some) new users. Now this may or may not be justified (depending on your POV), but the fact that it happens is clearly both NPOV and relevant to the article. It seems you don't actually disagree with any statement I've made (rather frustratingly), you merely find them uncomfortable. &mdash;Ashley Y 11:30, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Context is important: E2 may be publicly-available and free, but it's still a publishing house. Every publisher has editorial standards; the only difference between E2 and others is that E2 approves articles not before they're published, but after. Writeup deletion is the exact same thing as a publisher's rejection letter. --Mirv 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Anyway, I'm going to revert the article until this question is settled. Your comments are urgently needed. --Mirv 03:25, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Overall I think you're confusing two things. POV refers to (more or less) text which a significant number of well-informed people would dispute. Such text shouldn't appear in Wikipedia articles at least without being appropriately marked or quoted.

The other is text which is not disputed but only tells one side of a story &mdash; for instance, a list of atrocities performed by one side of a conflict. Unlike perhaps other collaborative information systems you may be used to, Wikipedians generally prefer to add to and amend text rather than delete it if it has any useful value (see Most common Wikipedia faux pas sec.5 "Deleting useful content"). It seems to me you are accusing me of adding this kind of text, and I don't necessarily contend that. But if so, the appropriate response would be to add more complete information, and if you cannot, leave it for someone else to. I ask you to reinstate my last edit, adding if you wish further information about E2 culture. &mdash;Ashley Y 14:51, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. People have complained that E2 is unfriendly to new noders; people have also pointed out that almost no club in the world fawns over newcomers, and no publisher treats new authors exactly as it treats well-established and famous writers.


 * Um, you're using one right now that does. The test here is whether a newcomer and an old hand would be treated the same given the same submissions. Wikipedia passes that test as a publisher, many online communities come fairly close if they're focused on something rather than being chatty, but people complain that E2 (which presents itself as both publisher and community) fails quite badly. Now you may defend that or disagree with that, but it should be mentioned. &mdash;Ashley Y 23:20, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)


 * (Even then, I can think of several users who were made editors or "gods" within a few months of joining.) So how about this (I'll put it under "History" and change the header to "History and Society"):


 * "E2 has a complex social hierarchy and code of behavior, to which it is sometimes difficult for a newcomer to adjust. Because of this, some new users have complained that they are held to a different standard from established contributors. Others dismiss such complaints as unjustified, pointing out that few communities treat newcomers exactly like long-time members, and that those who learn and obey the rules, written and unwritten, are usually -- though not always -- treated fairly."


 * (I think that's a reasonably balanced perspective on the community's treatment of newbies; new users do complain, but most old-timers tell them to shut up and deal.)


 * It's not so balanced: you've used "pointed out" in a rather prejudicial way, and possibly the complaint needs expanding. I'll fix it (and you can fix my fix, etc., in the Wiki process). &mdash;Ashley Y


 * The current statement seems fair. --Mirv 20:31, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I addressed deletions above, but again: Should an article on (say) the New Yorker mention that it rejects lots of submissions, and that this rejection discourages people from contributing? True though the information may be, it's not really relevant. All publishers edit; E2 is no different. --Mirv 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Well here's a question for you: does E2 more closely resemble Wikipedia or the New Yorker? More importantly, if you asked a random new user of E2 that question, what would they say? Whether or not you may feel it's unjustified, many people are very surprised when E2 articles are deleted. This is somewhat less common with the New Yorker. People need to know this.


 * E2 does look like any other open forum at first glance, and a user's first deletion often comes as a nasty shock: most online communities are not so heavily edited. This difference between appearance and actuality should be made clear, yes, but the editorial process has already been explained: In the "Rewards" section, the article states that "The site's editors delete writeups that do not meet editorial standards. . .", and E2's onsite documentation makes it abundantly clear that stuff will get deleted. A section comparing E2's editorial controls to the fairly wide-open nature of other, similar sites would be in order, but it should be an explanation, not a warning. --Mirv 20:31, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

(Different topic entirely: The project itself is politically neutral- Perl code doesn't have a political bias, does it? The userbase does lean to the left (by mainstream American and British standards, at least), but there are a number of conservative authors as well.)--Mirv 17:22, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Nepotism and favouritism
I have removed the paragraph "Everything2's leaders, or Gods, are also known to give reward points (votes, "XP") to members of the site in return for sexual favors." added by Samrolken

While is it possible, even probable, that nepotism and favouritism has occurred and will occur again given E2's setup, I think that is a overly bold and inflammatory assertion that is unsubstantiated. Either he's a troll or he has a beef that he wants to air. This is not the place for that. I see he's added this change in twice. I have asked him to quit it. --AnthonySteele 18 April 2004

Donations
Have restored deleted text:
 * "Everything2 accepts donations, but has so far refused to divulge any details of how these donations are spent. Some find this policy less than ideal."

As far as I know, this is factually accurate. Can anyone say otherwise? Have restored this text a second time. What is wrong with it?


 * It caught my eye, too. "Rrefused to divulge any details" invites the reader to conclude that there is something nefarious about E2's silence on its expenditures. I don't have any beef with pointing out their donation policy, but casting this basically innocent fact as though it held some dark significance could get some people's dander up.
 * Also, the last sentence seems to be a sneaky way of introducing POV by attributing the sentiment to "some." Who are these "some"? Have they publicly complained about this? If so, where? Seems unnecessarily weasel-ish. --Drseudo 05:40, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Have altered the phrasing to note that E2 does declare how the money is intended to be spent, while keeping the caveat that the details have not been divulged. Rephrased the note about criticism of the policy to avoid weasel terms.


 * Nice edit. On the question of Who are these "some"? Have they publicly complained about this? If so, where? These complaints are all over Community2, which does not quite count as "public", but is nevertheless telling. If I may quote a particularly blunt and well-rated comment from karmaflux:
 * "That site is mismanaged horribly. Evidence of this is its inability to support itself. Evidence of this is many, many longtime users leaving the site. A symptom of this is the removal of unpopular viewpoints."
 * &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.102.228 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:02, 21 August 2004.


 * The controversy over funding came from an ex-user who believed that the E2 community was being hoodwinked into giving money that didn't go back to running the site; i.e. that all donations went straight into the owners' pockets. Explanations about the expenses of running a popular website did not take effect. Karmaflux was involved in a very nasty soap opera and he most certainly does NOT have a neutral POV. Take his comments with a grain of salt!
 * &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.153.220.94 (talk &bull; contribs) 20:05, 27 January 2005.


 * Non-neutral != incorrect.
 * &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.149.58.156 (talk &bull; contribs) 22:39, 12 July 2005.

Controversy section
I'm moving this here:
 * "In recent years, some noders have seen Everything2's content policies getting needlessly draconian. Some have perceived the content guidelines getting increasingly similar to those of Wikipedia, although the number of available personal writeups and slanted points somewhat invalidate this point. Despite this, some believe that Everything2 has strayed from its roots as a tightly knit community of writers."

I don't dispute the veracity of the claims, but as it is, it reads like one noder's personal complaint made to sound NPOV. What specific new policies have been made and when? Who complained about those changes and where? References and details, please. --Eloquence* 17:30, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've noticed a number of profiles of parted users with long essays complaining about new E2 policies. &mdash;Casey J. Morris


 * This is due, largely (in my experience as an E2 content editor) to the practice of weeding out old, dated, scant of info, or overly personal/opinionated writeups that, in E2's beginning, were the bread and butter of the site. Many noders posted mostly or solely those types of writeups, and when the editorial policies began to toughen up, most of them left the site in protest. A small number have returned but aren't nearly as prolific as they were years ago, either because they lack the will to write if they know what they have to say won't be appreciated, or because they may be (inwardly or publicly) intimidated by the site's new direction. See the homenodes of ansate (fled), Pseudo_Intellectual (active, but non-noding), Billy (active, but non-noding) and BelDion (fled) for examples of such. &mdash;Avalyn 09:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)relative


 * I think the backlash to Everything2 is due to its ever-shifting focus and identity. Other knowledge-base projects like Wikipedia have always had a clear focus.  Wikipedia, for example, is an encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to and edit.  E2, on the other hand, has shifted from being a haven for people to yak about anything to an encyclopedia without an NPOV policy.  What further upset me, and presumably others, was that the ongoing shifts were by no means democratic.  Noders who did not dedicate 8 hours a day to the site were powerless as their hard work was completely deleted, and were told they did not conform to what E2 now was.  Anyway, a controversy section in some form needs to be reinstated to this article.  I'd be glad to help.  --Aeki 2 July 2005 15:19 (UTC)


 * Would that 8 hours a day were all it took to not be powerless in the face of the site's changes in direction 8) --Pseudo Intellectual 00:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

-

Re: your wish for a controversy section at the Wikipedia entry for E2. There is no controversy at E2. E2 isn't a democracy. It's a publication with a top down editorial policy delineated by an Editor-in-Chief.

Differing opinions about the editorial policy don't constitute a controversy. Questions about the editorial policy can be clarified by asking the Editor-in-Chief. --Halspal


 * It would be arrogant and nonsensical to pretend the Web site could exist totally independent of its contributors and thus their opinions are significant. &mdash;Casey J. Morris 09:06, July 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * E2 is comprised entirely of the work and opinions of its contributors. E2 is whatever its contributors decide that it is when they hit the 'submit' button.  It would, however, be madness to define it in an encyclopedia entry by the opinions of people who don't like it.
 * The most frequently stated "opinions" that might run contrary to the editorial stance of the site run along the lines of "We don't want it to be an edited publication." Well, it is.  If that constitutes a controversy, there's your analysis of it. --Halspal


 * Are you saying that that some changes in policy that caused many longtime users to stop writing don't deserve notice at all? Because I'm afraid I must disagree.  I myself am an E2 contributor (Though not with my real name) so it's not like I'm just deciding this from the outside or anything.  &mdash;Casey J. Morris 20:50, July 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * I guess I'd be shocked if the evolution of the site endeared the exact same chunk of people that it did before the evolution. People grow disinterested for as many reasons as there are people.
 * I suppose it's up to you to determine what 'deserves notice' but it doesn't really strike me as controversial. --Halspal


 * The controversy has to do with the fact that there is no stated editorial policy. This is why Halspal says you must contact the editor-in-chief.  The actual, unstated editorial policy seems to be "We do what we like and you deal with it," which I have no problem with.  It is, after all, a privately-held site, I think.  The legal status of the site is also traditionally unaddressed. It could be argued that the site is hosted on publicly-funded bandwidth, but then, it's certainly a closely-controlled system.
 * It has been frequently seen that questioning either the editorial policy or the legal/financial status of the website will be met with frosty response and unencouraging sidetracking, as in Halspal's nearly-ad-hominem placing of the word opinion in quotes, presumably to belittle the opinions of those who stand against E2's policy.
 * I recommend you leave out the controversial controversy section; otherwise we might be subjected to another self-published book. --I don't want to get banned


 * I resent the insinuation that my air quotes were some sort of ad hominem jab and I resent the fact that a supposed anti-elitist would denigrate self-publishing without even offering a link to the critically acclaimed text, available at affordable rates through Amazon.com at the URL: [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972634509/ref=pd_ys_pym_a_2/102-8255831-3296118?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972634509/ref=pd_ys_pym_a_2/102-8255831-3296118?v=glance]
 * Beyond that I think you are anonymous and dumb. Useful discussions rarely emerge from anonymous dumb people. Love, Halspal


 * More ad hominem. At this point it's teetering on the cliffsides above Pathological Canyon.  I, in turn, resent the assumption that I am at all anti-elitist.  I'm just anti-deceit, and so I'm anti-controversy-section, because there's no way such a touchy subject could be addressed on a publically-edited website without collecting tons of ballast in the form of retarded partisan opinions.
 * Signing your book didn't make it any better, so I think we can narrow down your ridiculous assertion to "Useful things rarely come from dumb people."
 * Now that I've got my ad-hominem line out of the way, would you mind justifying your use of quotation marks? They are not, you may notice, air quotes, which are made physically. This being a text medium, they are actual, honest-Injun quotes.  Regardless, I would dearly love to hear you explain what you were getting at with the punctuation in question.
 * Oh, that's right. The E2 power structure doesn't justify things.  I almost forgot.  Feel free to disregard the question; it's not in your style. "Love," J. Alfred Anonymous


 * Note: The quotes around the word love indicate an ironic use of the word.
 * Note: Irony is a form of speech in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used. source:Wikipedia

---

You need a hobby, Frankie.

If you're going to take jabs at the power structure of e2, at least talk to a member of said power structure. Halspal is neither an editor nor a god. -jclast


 * jclast, you guessed wrong. Keep guessing.  Right IP address, though, but Halspal's source just saw the wrong part of the access log.  Let's get one thing straight:  I'm not particularly angry about everything, just interested in balancing the viewpoint.  Also bored enough to do so.
 * Halspal does not currently have the database flag that indicates control over the E2 site, but to claim he is not a member of the power structure is misrepresentation at best, and lying at worst. He was holder of the controversial title, 'god,' and even an erstwhile member of the power structure is still a member.
 * In essence, the reason this is relevant to the discussion at hand is that Halspal himself is not of the even-handed unbiased fence-sitting mindset he sometimes implies.
 * As for hobbies, I have several, but I still haven't found something fun to do while I'm sitting on the can. I've read all the books in the house, and I'm too lazy to buy more.  Sociopathy, incidentally, indicates a habit of antisocial behavior.  Disapproving of a website on the internet is hardly that.  You have to have a society before someone can be antisocial about it. Anonymous


 * I'm the one who called you "Frankie", not jclast.
 * Seriously, I'm not in any way a part of the administration of E2 and I honestly don't know why you disapprove of E2, nor does it bother me that you do. I like E2.  It's a cool web site.  It's okay for you to not like E2.  --Halspal


 * I don't know who you are, and frankly, it doesn't matter. I'm just saying that if you want to talk about the power structure of any group, talk to a member of the power structure, not a non-member (or even an ex-member). Talking to the ex-president of Group X can only give you insight as to how it was run, not how it is currently run. --jclast

Encyclopedic topics at Everything2
I am a member of the wikiproject Missing Enyclopedic Articles and have been thinking for the last few days about incorporating some of the material from everything2 into wikipedia. There is ongoing discussion at the talk page about my proposal. I am specifically interested in getting a table of contents or list of topics. This list, unlike the each of the writeups would be owned by e2. Unfortunately I have not found a e-mail address where I can contact one of the adminstrators or owners of the site. Does anyone here know of a way that I can contact them so that I can use this list for this project? Thanks, --Reflex Reaction 16:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Adding a list of E2 nodes would be pointless. Nodes are created and deleted every day, factuals included. --jclast 03 Nov. 2005


 * Even if it is a static list it would be a starting point for doing direct comparisons of wikipedia's and e2 content. 6 months or 5 years another comparison could be done.  -- Reflex Reaction  ( talk )&bull; 00:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Similarities
From the main article:


 * Everything2 and Wikipedia are almost the same. They are both free and are user-contributed. Everything2 and Wikipedia are also moderated for quality content, but unfortunatly Everything2 is not moderated for language. Unlike Wikipedia, Everything2 (E2) has user groups and also has a chat box for users and guests. E2 however is extremly confusing for new users and lacks latex. Its moderators and administrators however are steadily working towards adding LaTex and improving graphics.

This is confusing and full of POV. First, the section is titled "Similarities" but starting from the second sentence it starts listing differences. Then the allegation that it is "unfortunate" that e2 is "not moderated for language" is POV. That e2 is "extremely confusing for new users" is another POV allegation. Some of the content of this section (like the claims re: LaTex) could be salvaged and fit somewhere in to the article (with appropriate citations), but it does not merit a section its own unless a good deal more NPOV, cited content is added. noosphere 00:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It's also wrong. Wikipedia and E2 are only both free in one respect- in price. E2 is determindly proprietary. --maru   (talk)  contribs 04:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * E2 also runs on free software. 141.154.96.67 14:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The introduction to this article sucks
I added the Context tag, as I can't tell from the beginning of the article what E2 even is. From looking through the history, I see that in the past the article had an introduction which actually explained the topic. This needs to be done again. --Xyzzyplugh 02:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added more info to the lead; please remove the tag if this is sufficient, and/or copy-edit as needed. --Muchness 05:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Any relation to the Apple campaign?
The Everything2 campaign from Apple Computer is not any way related to E2, right? If it is, that should be in the article. --GunnarRene 17:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed the ref link above. Pointed to image on apple site.  But no it has nothing to do with the E2 website. -- Isogolem 20:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The Apple campaign is suggesting that when you buy their product you get "Everything squared" as opposed to "Everything Two". As in, this computer "has everything and more....". Everything2 is so called because it is "Everything" mark two, not everything squared. 24.90.195.19 14:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Site down
The site appears down to me right now, if this goes on long enough, or has already been, it's probably notable. Mathiastck 11:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This is due to the move from UMich to MSU. Catchpole 12:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This site began before Wikipedia, however over the course of time Wikipedia has grown much, much bigger
In my opinion, but I'm almost certain it's fact too. If we could find a cite...--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 13:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an article from 2000 which discusses E2, Nupedia and H2G2. . Catchpole 13:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Screenshot
It would be nice, when someone would upload a normal screenshot. is far from normal. 84.50.241.202 19:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)