Talk:Evolution/Archive 34

Dmurtbergx made his point with peer-reviewed journals and books
Dmurtbergx provided a literature (Journal of Molecular biology,etc.)to support his contention that "Nevertheless, the proposition that biological evolution occurs through the mechanism of natural selection is completely uncontested within the scientific community." is not accurate. NPOV demands we change this to the vast majority or something similar-completely uncontested means absolute total which is not true (even if one paper it wouldn't be true-to argue otherwise is idiotic). Despite that point scientist do argue the significance of natural selection in evolution (in a particular circumstance) so even that is not accurate. It is a poor sentence and inaccurate statement. GetAgrippa 17:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Let's continue this discussion in the Evolution Debates archive.  Gnixon 19:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Argh. Can we keep debates germane to this page on this page? That's what the talk page is for. I don't want to have to read 15 different pages to find out why people are making changes here. Graft 19:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the debate is germane to this page. It's just another reincarnation of the recurring debate over whether evolution is completely accepted by scientists.  The issue has been debated ad nauseum and is addressed in the FAQ, but it keeps coming up on this page, where it always spawns the same long, ugly-worded fight that so often clutters this page.  Any relevance to the article just serves as a jumping-off place for everyone's diatribes for or against Creation or Evolution.  Since we've never succeeded in killing this debate entirely, why not move it to its own page and let everyone rant at each other to their heart's content?  If anything useful ever comes out of the discussion, it can be noted here.  Gnixon 19:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not just remove the word "completely"? I think per WP:NPOV's undue weight clause that would be fine. JoshuaZ 19:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That idea has been discussed. My preference would be to only revisit the discussion within the Evolution Debates archive, but I'm not sure if everyone agrees.  Gnixon
 * If books and few peer reviewed papers were a disqualification then Richard Dawkins arguments would be few. Michael Behe has more peer reviewed papers in journals (Neither are very prolific authors both less than thirty peer reviewed, but both like books). Dawkins likes books and essays and is not particularly fond of peer review publications. I didn't bother to read the intelligent design stuff, but I did pull up two (there could be more I didn't bother) of his references that are legitimate questioning the role of natural selection.:Lonnig WE, Saedler H Chromosome rearrangements and transposable elements.Annu Rev Genet. 2002;36:389-410. Epub 2002 Jun 11. Review. PMID: 12429698 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Denton MJ, Marshall CJ, Legge M.The protein folds as platonic forms: new support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law. J Theor Biol. 2002 Dec 7;219(3):325-42. Review. PMID: 12419661 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE You could also add Stephen Wolfram to the argument as we had to entertain his arguments (of cellular automata) against natural selection in that article (which I argued against). I do not support creationist nor design claims, but he brought up a valid point even if it is only one paper then "complete" is not accurate. I don't think it is a big deal given a list of less than fifty versus thousands. GetAgrippa 20:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding books, etc., please review WP:RS. As for the article you reference, notice that it doesn't argue there's no evolution by natural selection.  If we're going to rehash all these old arguments, can't we at least take it to the sub-page Evolution Debates for now? Gnixon 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Who said anything about no evolution? The argument is scientist are not in "complete" agreement that evolution occurs by natural selection. Ths sentence can be misleading as the naive may read that evolution only occurs by natural selection and all scientist are in agreement with that fact, which is of course ridiculous. Seems there is a better way to emphasize the importance and significance of natural selection in evolutionary thought. Just trying to follow NPOV.  GetAgrippa 22:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That Behe has written papers is uncontested, but his work actually supports evolution; a number of people have pointed out his own models in several papers support evolution, despite his claims to the contrary. I'm not a big fan of Behe's because while he does good work, he does a lot of harm due to his bizzare and baseless convictions. Titanium Dragon 19:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well in my opinion he nearly got a well deserved conviction for perjury at Kitzmiller, but not quite..... ;) .. dave souza, talk 19:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Gnixon has misunderstood GetAgrippa. GetAgrippa is pointing out that scientists argue over whether natural selection is the sole mechanism through which evolution occurs. If Gnixon honestly believes that this point is equivalent to questioning whether evolution occurs, then Gnixon does not understand either English or the current state of evolutionary theory. But whether Gnixon is sincere or not, the effect is to distract us from a discussion that, as Graft has pointed out, is important, relevant to this article, and should be on this talk page. Let us stop talking about Behe, he is irrelevant to the point GetAgrippa originally made and only leads to unnecessary and wastyed talk. Slrubenstein  |  Talk 10:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from making personal attacks and instead read GetAgrippa's and Dmurtbergx's commments more carefully. Dmurtbergx was arguing that "evolution occurs" is under debate within the scientific community; he was not discussing the importance of natural selection relative to other mechanisms. Gnixon 15:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That may well be the point that Dmurtbergx was making. However, you were responding to a comment by GetAgrippa, and I was responding to the point made by GetAgrippa.  And GetAgrippa is saying something else. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 17:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No need to quarrel. GetAgrippa made two arguments: 1) that Dmurtbergx disproved the state ment that evolution is "completely uncontested" within science; and 2) that the sentence is inaccurate because scientists debate the significance of natural selection.  On point 1, I disagreed because Dmurtbergx failed to show that anyone in science disagrees with the basic premise of evolution.  You were focused on point 2.  On point 2, I disagree with GetAgrippa because, technically, the sentence only says that natural selection is *a* mechanism of evolution, not that it is the only mechanism or even the primary one.  I don't believe the *existence* of natural selection is contested.  Anyway, I agree that mentioning natural selection may be misleading.  More importantly, it's not relevant to the point of the sentence, which is that scientists aren't debating whether evolution occurred.  I dropped reference to natural selection in my recent edit, quoted below.  Gnixon 18:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * User:GetAgrippa is the person who began this thread, and the article statement he wanted to change is the following: Nevertheless, the proposition that biological evolution occurs through the mechanism of natural selection is completely uncontested within the scientific community[42]. GetAgrippa was saying (I think) that this sounds POV, and that the references provided by the in-line citation are not enough to justify it. I agree with both points. Can we have GetAgrippa offer a revised version of the sentence that addresses his concerns?  The word 'completely' does seem too strong, but tell us exactly what to replace it with. EdJohnston 17:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, i think the easiest fix is to change the word "completely" to "virtually," and I would consider rephrasing the first clause as: "the proposition that natural selection is one of the principal mechanisms through which biological evolution occurs..." Slrubenstein  |  Talk 17:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I like changing to "virtually," but the point of the sentence is to emphasize that the basic concept of evolution is not under debate within science. I've taken a shot at resolving the issue with this edit:
 * Nevertheless, the idea that life on Earth evolved over billions of years from a common ancestor is virtually uncontested within the scientific community.[42]
 * I think this revision fits its context and avoids the extreme "completely uncontested" phrase. The citation still may not be completely satisfactory.  Also, as mentioned above, the rest of this section could use some work. Gnixon 18:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I like Gnixon's version - by taking natural selection out, it makes the point unambiguous.Slrubenstein  |  Talk 12:28, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Fix the body of the article
My opinion on this article is that people need to stop messing about with the lede and at least fix the obvious and minor issues with the body, such as the presence of different referencing schemes. Samsara (talk • contribs) 23:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but there's a lot of work to get the body up to scratch, so it's probably a bit too easy to play with the lead, which is far better than the rest.
 * Ah, well. When I'm feeling a little more human, I'll grab a section and work on it. Adam Cuerden talk 00:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * While I'm at it, I'll make another comment, and that's that I think this article should focus on evolution, not on "things to do with evolution". Those kinds of things are what the "see also" section is usually for, which I know has been omitted from this article by consensus a while back. I would rather have a short "see also" than the kind of trailing cruft that this article suffers from. In case others may find this educational, I'll mention that this particular comment is partly inspired by reviewing the versions that were originally promoted, and, in an early FAR, kept. Samsara (talk • contribs) 01:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're making a good point. Can you be more specific? Gnixon 18:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Definition of evolution is for population biology
The article is fine as an explanation of changes of population gene frequencies. You could as well have defined evolution as relating to the diversification of life on earth, and introduced natural selection as an important explanatory principle. See my addition to the intro related to cladistics and taxonomy.

Please someone correct the spelling of "cataloguing." I can't get to that text.

I am newbie on this page.

Dfarrar 13:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Scorpionman
After seeing his latest edit to this article, I checked out his talk page and edit history. Can anybody tell me why this user has not been permanently blocked from editing? MrDarwin 17:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I was more impressed that Scorpionman had finally seen the light! ;)  --Plumbago 17:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Alas, the shock was too much for him to take it seems, as he was apparently blocked for his own safety. But don't worry, us True Believers (tm) will continue the fight! :) Homestarmy 18:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

for a picture of a chicken with four legs
for a picture of a chicken with four legs see here.......I will add later to the article in morphological evidence CrystalizedAngels 14:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Holy S***! MarkBuckles (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't that more likely to be some sort of siamese twin, though? Adam Cuerden talk 14:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Proposal to move Evolution to Theory of evolution
I feel as if it is best for us to move this article to Theory of Evolution for a few reasons. First of all, the name Theory of Evolution is more nuteral than Evolution. Second, many religious people may be a little offended at this being dipicted as if it is a fact. Lastly, Evolution is just a scientific theory, not a fact. Theory of Evolution would be a more correct title for this article. Peace:) --James, La gloria è a dio 22:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read Talk:Evolution/FAQ. Wikipedia doesn't, and shouldn't, rewrite articles to prevent offending the religious. illspirit|talk 23:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you do read Talk:Evolution/FAQ it will send you a very specific article called Evolution as theory and fact. This is the information you should look at. The Law of Gravity is also both theory and fact. Would you have us rename Gravity to Theory of gravity? 23:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)EdJohnston


 * Wow, this discussion must be repeated about once every two months. Next should be massive arguments on both sides.  Then name calling.  Then reverting of edits.  Then it all dies down for it to happen all over again.  Tiresome.  Orangemarlin 00:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As I have said repeatedly, the most popular argument, bar none, is that "evolution is a theory, not a fact". For some reason that resonates in the empty cavities of assorted crania.--Filll 00:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You cannot say "bar none," because I'm stating to you right now, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing about it when you have so many other resources available to enhance your understanding, that evolution is a fact, and even more than a theory. Although for the sake of scientific interests, we label it as only a theory.Valich 08:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow. . . Some people can be thick. . . gravity is a law. It is observable. It is testable. It is verifieable. Evolution was something someone thought of to explain why how we got here. It made sense in a time when people didn't know about DNA or that cells aren't little blobs of living substance. To get an idea of what a cell is like, imagine an entire planet ( making example large for purpose of showing intricacies)that has a computer core that directs: machines gathering materials from other planets, the making of electricity from solar energy, a defense system capable of destroying other things of equal size, and a system that starts more of the same machine out on other planets. Basically a cell is pure machinery. Incredibally complicated. Orangemarlin! ! ! Im gonna restate a truth that has been said a lot ( though not enough) evolution has not been verified whatever you say. And if creation is an unintelligent theory, why aren't the 2 arguments put side by side? The theory of evolution is stated as fact in schools by evolutionists. Creation is NOT shown to be wrong, it is only stated to be so. All evolutionists say is "this is an incorrect and stupid belief" (basically all they say about it to science students) Put both arguments side by side for everyone to see! Orangemarlin do me a favor. ( I don't really expect you to, but im requesting you to anyway) Please look into a series of movies that are called "Incredible Animals that Defy Evolution" They give one of the most well organized arguments iv'e heard. Thank you! ( and by the way I dont intend to revert to namecalling, even if someone else does, nothing destroyes the point of constructive debate as easily) ````oddball 2002


 * Well, there goes the counter-Wikipedious name-calling. There are scads of instances of the word "theory" in the article, so wherein is the problem? Since this is an article on a scientific topic, the word is properly used as used by scientists (as in 'theory of gravity' -- thanks). There is an article theory, which is not cross-referenced here as far as I see, and contrasts scientific and other uses of the term. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off for a relaxing tour of the global warming discussion.    Dfarrar 01:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Evolution does not equal to the theory of natural selection, natural selection is a hypothesis(quite frankly at this point it is just more, much more than a theory) which explains the process of under which evolution happens. Evolution is observable, it is not only a theory. Take the same antibiotic against a bacterial infection, and you will see what happens. The process under which this evolution happened can be a theory and/or a hypothesis, but the fact that an 'evolution' did happen can not be contested. In short, evolution is not a theory. Fad (ix) 00:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * IIRC, this is all explained in the article or the various archives of this talk page. There's really no point reiterating it, to be honest. illspirit|talk 00:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I am agreing with you, you guys even created a FAQ subpage, a great idea. I'll steal the idea for another article. :) Fad (ix) 01:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fad, your arguments and opinion belong on a talk forum, not here. This discussion section is for how to improve the article, not question its validity and scientific content, or to question what constitutes a hypothesis vs. a theory vs. fact, or to state that evolution does not equal NS (Yes, We all know that evolution is much more complex than just that), or to tell us about your views on taking antibiotics.Valich 08:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You've misread me, check your talk. Fad (ix) 15:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia considers evolution an undeniable and undisputed fact and any opposing evidence as 'junk science' regardless and only people with several mental illness (such belief in god) would disagree. You'll have better luck getting Evolution renamed to "The Fact of Evolution." or arguing 1+1=3 Wyatt 20:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Previous commenters have objected to inclusion in this Talk page of questions already answered in the FAQ. There was even a proposal to move them to a special archive called 'Evolution debates'. In lieu of that, to save space here and to maintain visibility of old discussions, how about I 'box up' the above discussion using a Show/Hide pair of templates, such as hat and hab. Those names are short for Hidden archive top and Hidden archive bottom. I have done so for the above thread so you can see what it looks like. If you disagree, simply remove the pair of templates. I'll wait for feedback before doing this elsewhere EdJohnston 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I like this idea even better than the "Evolution Debates" archive, but others might object to it for the same reasons, i.e., that these discussions should simply be deleted. I'm worried that outright deletion (or moving to users' talk pages) will only stoke more flame wars, so I like the hat/hab archives.  It would be nice if the template didn't say the archive should not be edited.  By the way, this seems like a nice way to archive all long discussions, as long as the template doesn't say it can't be edited.  Maybe we could consider hat/hab archiving all comments between the initial post and the final resolution (if available).  Gnixon 14:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Evolution statements
This article states it as fact that evolution happened. It is an unproved theory. It is simply a belief system. Anyone can call me a crazy creationist if they feel like it, but it doesn't change this. And if creation is an idiotic belief that only people who can't or won't think believe in, why not put the arguments for it and against it in schools and musems? (Please don't say that creatonists dont either. Its not true) Are the evolutionists scared of something? I think they are. And despite what evolutionists want us to belive, there are no rock layers of fossils of increasingly complicated organisms. anyone who doesnt like these statements send me a message. ````oddball 2002   —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oddball 2002 (talk • contribs). 20 March, 2007.


 * You're wrong. And this point has been debated 17 times.  Please check the archives.  Orangemarlin 00:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow. . . Some people can refuse to see the obvious. . . gravity is a law. It is observable. It is testable. It is verifieable. Evolution was something someone thought of to explain why how we got here. It made sense in a time when people didn't know about DNA or that cells aren't little blobs of living substance. To get an idea of what a cell is like, imagine an entire planet ( making example large for purpose of showing intricacies)that has a computer core that directs: machines gathering materials from other planets, the making of electricity from solar energy, a defense system capable of destroying other things of equal size, and a system that starts more of the same machine out on other planets. Basically a cell is pure machinery. Incredibally complicated. Orangemarlin! ! ! Im gonna restate a truth that has been said a lot ( though not enough) evolution has not been verified whatever you say. And if creation is an unintelligent theory, why aren't the 2 arguments put side by side? The theory of evolution is stated as fact in schools by evolutionists. Creation is NOT shown to be wrong, it is only stated to be so. All evolutionists say is "this is an incorrect and stupid belief" (basically all they say about it to science students) Put both arguments side by side for everyone to see!
 * Orangemarlin do me a favor. ( I don't really expect you to, but im requesting you to anyway). Please look into a series of movies that are called "Incredible Animals that Defy Evolution".  They give one of the most well organized arguments iv'e heard.  Thank you! ( and by the way I dont intend to revert to namecalling, even if someone else does, nothing destroyes the point of constructive debate as easily)  Oddball 2002 15:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)oddball 2002

Wikipedia has proof of my staement built into it. The official Evolution FAQ page says the reason that the theory of evolution is well supported by fossil evidence and the like. Its not! But it's an accepted source, and so people quote its falsehoods. Wikapedia is quite biased. but I'm ok with that. . . . . . We're used to it. 71.53.80.206 16:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)oddball 2002


 * Let's see, I have a BS in Biochemistry, an MS in Biochemistry, an MD, and nearly 30 years of experience in Science and Medicine, and I'm being lectured about what is a cell? So I probably know more than you how complicated a cell is.  And so?  Four billion years of evolution will give you complexity and diversity.  I'm happy with that, and I don't need to believe that your mythical god had anything to do with it.  And I've seen the one part of that boring DVD you mentioned (3 discs to whine about Evolution).  It's so filled with incredible statements that it goes without saying, it is a load of BS.  Go here if you want to read about the Bombadier Beetle .  You can't prove Creationism wrong, because it can't be falsified.  No matter what I say, you'll resort to this pathetic notion that your mythical god had something to do with it.  It's a boring, exhausting, and nonsense argument that makes no sense to me.  I may grant that my G_d established the natural laws of the universe, but everything else follows that law.  Every animal on this earth evolved through a series of random events.  And that my friend is a verifiable, indisputable fact.Orangemarlin 15:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue is addressed in the FAQ. Editors should remember to keep a civil tone with each other and avoid reigniting long-settled debates.  Gnixon 18:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Controversial
I think this article should be tagged controversial because many people don't believe in evolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.78.117.139 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree with you:) --James, La gloria è a dio 23:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Your thoughts are outwith science, which is what this article's about. This article describes what evolution means in biology, not what it means in a faith context. dave souza, talk 23:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. In science evolution is just a fact. Just to let everyone know, I am not going to give up until I see that this article is NPOV. Doing what is right is more important than doing what is popular. --James, La gloria è a dio 23:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Evolution is a fact, I told you, take the same antibiotic everytime you have an infection and see what happens. It is observable, repeatable, measurable etc. Read the articles introduction and see under which context it is used. Fad (ix) 00:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments. The controversy is already well-covered at Evolution, with links to three sub-articles which more fully explore the issue. Controversial articles per se do not require any tagging. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * this social and religious section is not NPOV —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Whoutz (talk • contribs) 16:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Evolution is not a proven fact, rather a theory. It is contested by highly qualifyed scientests. Also it is not believed to be fact by everyone. I am now going to change anywere it says 'evolution is not contested by the scentific community' etc to it is, and if anyone here dosen't like that they have to first read a 'creation' and a 'Jounal of creation'. Dont be idiotic and read out of date ones, or ones not from answers in genisis. If you dont want to do research, dont change mine. There is no evedence for evolution that would turn micro-organsims into men, there is evidence for DE-volution. NuttyProSci-Fi3000 17:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue is addressed in the FAQ. Gnixon 18:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

...the hell?
''The theory of evolution by natural selection was first put forth in detail in Charles Darwin's 1859 book On the Origin of Species. In the 1930s, Darwinian natural selection was combined with Mendelian inheritance to form the modern evolutionary synthesis. With its enormous explanatory and predictive power, this theory has become the central organizing principle of modern biology, providing a unifying explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.''

Why on earth has this returned? It's like a hideous vampire, returning from the dead to kill off good writing, and to keep its undead, over-edited corpse alive by feasting on the life of the article. REWRITE NEEDED BADLY!!!! Adam Cuerden talk 04:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I put it back because rewriting is better than deletion (that is, we all agree Darwin and Mendel, etc., need to be mentioned in the intro). If it's deleted, it'll take forever for it to come back. Its festering corpse will more rapidly encourage rewriting. Graft 16:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but I do hope we drive the stake of rewriting through its heart soon. Adam Cuerden talk 18:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * With the exception of the unexplained mention of Mendelian inheritance, I kind of liked it, though I don't think it adds much to the lead as it is now. What specifically don't you like about it, Adam?  If there was a discussion of it before, can you link to it?--Margareta 21:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Various things - it didn't handle Wallace or earlier evolutionists well, the second half of it about "With its extraordinary explanatory and predictive power... central organising principle of biology, etc." bears no relationship to the first half, and, lastly, it WILL NOT DIE!!! It's the only part of the lead that's identical in phrasing to the ancient  lead of  a year ago, despite losing all the transition between its halves. We don't need no stinkin' Cytochrome-c in our lead. DIE YE VESTIGE OF THE EVOLUTION ARTICLE'S EVOLUTIONARY PAST! Adam Cuerden talk 21:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Input appreciated
I would greatly appreciate input in discussions surrounding content of Jewish reactions to intelligent design. My interference appears to have gotten this and Jewish opposition to evolution blocked. I apologise. But I think both articles need serious attention less they waltz into OR and essay gray areas.--ZayZayEM 09:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Single Last Common Ancestor
All species are not descended from a single ancestor as the introduction wrongly states. The origins of life and consequent speciation did not have just one single last common ancestor. Amongst unicellular organisms a tremendous amount of lateral gene transfer took/takes place. Intro needs to be revised Valich 06:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Could you try making a more concise edit since it's part of the introduction? I agree it's not right to say "a common ancestor," but I think we should save that level of detail for the body of the article.  Maybe instead of getting into lateral transfer, etc., we could just revise the common descent sentence, saying something like "are descended from a few primitive ancestors."  Gnixon 10:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How abouts "common ancestry"? Jefffire 11:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't you mean "last common ancestor"? garik 11:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoever finds a concise way to put it in the intro could try doing the same thing for the mention of common descent in the Controversy section. Gnixon 17:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, Common Descent will have to be revised, since it doesn't mention this issue. In fact, it says that biologists agree there was a common ancestor.  Changing the intro of the Evolution article is the wrong place to start with this issue.  Let's change Common Descent first, with good citations, then change the common descent section of Evolution, and then change the introduction in a concise way.  Until then, I think we should revert the change to the intro.  I'm not an expert on the issue, so someone else will have to make the major changes.  Gnixon 17:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * If we say "descended from a few primitive ancestors," this would be too associated with later speciation divergence. Lateral gene transfer occurred during the early origins of life, amongst early single cellular organisms, but there was never any single last common ancestor to "all" species. The last line of the intro has to be changed. I included the supportive sources, so they would be easy to retrieve. How about adding only a one sentence extension with something like this:
 * "Traditionally, all known species were thought to have descended from a single common ancestor through this process of divergence. However, the current view is that there never was a single [last common ancestor] because of the tremendous amount of gene transfer occurring during the early stages of evolution." Gene transfer would then be linked to the [horizontal gene transfer] article, which is a good continuation of this subject. The Last Common Ancestor article states, "until the new species establishes itself there are going to be some, possibly many, generations of gene-swapping with the parent branch. Depending on the process that gives rise to the species, the LCA can often be better described as the initial small, interbreeding group or clan or founding population, all members of which carry a common species-defining mutation.Valich 20:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC). The last sentence in the intro also contradicts what is later stated in the article under Mechanism of Evolution: Horizontal Gene Transfer: "Horizontal gene transfer complicates the inference of the phylogeny of life, as the original metaphor of a tree of life no longer fits. Rather, since genetic information is passed to other organisms and other species in addition to being passed from parent to offspring, "biologists [should] use the metaphor of a mosaic to describe the different histories combined in individual genomes and use [the] metaphor of a net to visualize the rich exchange and cooperative effects of HGT among microbes".[23]  The [Speciation] article also states that, "However, recent research shows that jumping of a gene from one chromosome to another can contribute to the birth of new species [11] This validates reproductive isolation mechanism, a key component of speciation.Valich 18:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I've always found this terribly confusing: Are we seriously to believe that prokaryotes emerged multiple times from unique events, then exchanged things? It might be a series of convergances and divergences, but an initial single prokaryote seems hugely more likely, and the rest just muddle. Sure, I can see what it's getting at, but unless we presuppose several colonies coming together multiple times too form the proto-prokaryote, I don't see it. Adam Cuerden talk 19:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

For clarity in confusion and consistency in all Wikipedia articles, please refer to the links added to the Horizontal gene transfer article, Speciation article, as well as the Mechanisms of Evolution section in this article, and the extremeley up-to-date scientific sources cited. Remember, science is progressive. I think it is extremely narrow-minded for us to seriously believe that all species evolved only at one particular instance in all of space and time and only arose from only one prokaryote in our vast enormous universe under all these same earlier environmental conditions, as we similarly like to, or have liked to in the past, entertain ourselves with the notion that there was or is only one God. A different subject, but the point is that there is a psychological bias that exists in the human mind to search for simplicity, and to understand Nature through concepts of simplicity, and "one" is simpler than many. One may be easier for a person to understand, but not always the truth, or, in this case, not the facts. Yes, unicellular organisms emerged from more than one LCA and new such species and strains arise today from gene transfer. Gene transfer amongst species, and not from a common ancestor, played an important evolutionary mechanism in protist evolution and in the origin of life, and still do today. While most higher species do have a common ancestor, there never was a single last common ancestor because of the tremendous amount of gene transfer occurring during the early stages of evolution. This is now an established fact in the scientific community, virtually undebated by any evolutionary biologist anymore, except by creationists: Valich 21:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Lake, James A. and Maria C. Riveral. (2004). "The Ring of Life Provides Evidence for a Genome Fusion Origin of Eukaryotes. Nature. Vol. 431 []

UCLA Report. (2004) "Ring of Life." []

Doolittle, Ford W. (February 2000). "Uprooting the Tree of Life." Scientific American. pp. 72-77.

Lake, James A. and Maria C. Riveral. (1999) PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Science) 96:7 pp. 3801-3806 []

Bapteste et al. (2005). "Do Orthologous Gene Phylogenies Really Support Tree-thinking?" BMC Evolutionary Biology. Vol. 5:33 []

Gogarten, Peter. (2000) "Horizontal Gene Transfer: A New Paradigm for Biology." Esalen Center for Theory and Research Conference. []

On the birth of new species today see:

Masly, John P., Corbin D. Jones, Mohamed A. F. Noor, John Locke, and H. Allen Orr. (September 2006). "Gene Transposition as a Cause of Hybrid Sterility in Drosophila." Science. Vol. 313, Issue 5792. pp. 1448-1450 Richardson, Aaron O. and Jeffrey D. Palmer. (January 2007). "Horizontal Gene Transfer in Plants." Journal of Experimental Botany. Volume 58. pp. 1-9 []


 * Um...
 * Forgive me. I'm fully aware of the fusion origin of Eukaryotes. I just see that, combined with the Universal Genetic Code, as further evidence of a last common ancestor: How could a genome fuse if it wasn't using the same language?
 * I don't at all argue that it's not a simple tree; it's a tree with combinations. Indeed, I'm rather enamoured of the ideas of the larva and imago of insects being a combination of two organisms: the way the imago grows out of cells that have been in the larva te whole time, replacing everything else, is interesting hints at this - provided I understand insect metamorphosis. However, I think that the origin of our genetic code, and probably most of the rest of it - ribosomes, etc - were already fused in the last common ancestor, and the horizontal connections don't, in a meaningful way, change this.
 * How am I wrong? Adam Cuerden talk 22:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Valich, none of the references that you cite actually challenges the idea of a single common ancestor. The fact that Bacteria and Archaea fused at one time to create the Eukaryotes, and that considerable gene transfer occurs between Prokaryotes, doesn't address where the Bacteria and Archaea came from or rule out whether, at one time long before the fusion event(s), they shared a single common ancestor.  If anything, they argue against a single common ancestor for all Eukaryotes (although one of the references you provided, the UCLA report, actually references the idea of a "first Eukaryote" on one of its graphics.  "Rings of life" don't refute common ancestry.--Margareta 02:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You are wrong. Read the articles. they all support the view that there was never a least common origin. This is why the tree of life in these articles aren't, and can't be, rooted. If pictures speak a thousan words, then just click on the UCLA Report article.  The origins are a ring, not a single root, due to lateral gene transfer. Valich 08:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Margareta states, "Valich, none of the references that you cite actually challenges the idea of a single common ancestor." Doolittle cited above, and in the article, specifically states: "But extensive [gene] transfer means that trees will differ (although many will have regions of similar topology) and there would never have been a single cell that could be called the last universal common ancestor."  This is a fact, and is what I have found again and again through researching this and talking with experts in this field. In particular, I direct you to read Lake's analyses. In the intro, the phrase, "While most species do have a common ancestor..." should be linked to the Common ancestor article, while the phrase "descended from a common ancestor" should be linked to the last common ancestor article. Valich 03:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The Rivera and Lake Nature article you cite does not actually challenge common ancestry, as it is only about Eukaryotic origins. Whether Eukaryotes are descended from one Prokaryote or many doesn't affect the question of whether the Prokaryotic ancestor(s) themselves had a common ancestor.  The PNAS Lake article also does not discuss the origin(s) of Prokaryotes, only there relationships to one another well after their origin(s).


 * You did not provide a full citation to the Doolittle article, so I can't look it up in order to read the sentence you quote from it in context. Even if it is there and is used to mean what you imply it does, it would still not be enough evidence to support your statement that "there never was a single last common ancestor...this is now an established fact in the scientific community, virtually undebated by any evolutionary biologist anymore." Theories like this take decades or more--and more than one citation--to become "established facts."  And Scientific American, while an excellent magazine, is not peer-reviewed and so a quote from them would need something more to back it up before saying it was "virtually undebated...established fact."


 * With respect, your conclusions regarding common ancestry are quite a stretch from the statements made in the articles you cite (those articles that are fully cited and available). It seems to me you are taking valid and active discussions among scientists regarding A. the original of Eukaryotes and B. the "shape" of evolutionary trees (or rings), and stretching them to fit your own ideas on the origin(s) of life--a topic that is hardly as settled as you are trying to make it out to be.


 * And Adam Cuerden is right in all the logical problems that he's brought up with your stance--none of which seem to have been addressed yet.--Margareta 05:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not my fault that you can't read the full article. Go to the library. It would be ridiculous to expect everyone to only cite sources available at free access to everyone on the internet.  The majority of journal articles, and all books, are not available on the internet. So what is your point here?  This concept have having more than one life form that all life evolved from was stated by Darwin, has been advocated since his times, and openly expressed through culmination of many scientific studies, mostly with bacteria, over the last fifty years now, and openly promoted and accepted within the evolutionary biology community through scores of articles publish over the last ten years. I cited 10 references dating from 1999 (Doolittle) to the present." Valich 08:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't know what you are talking about. Have you even read the Horizontal gene transfer article? No.  Because if you had, then you would have read more of Dolittle's article.  Go to the library and read it.  Do I have to type it ALL in just for YOU to read? That would be inappropriate.  You haven't read any of these articles and very clearly you are not up-to-date on the current research and the current state-of-knowledge in this field. I've been spending years on this, and you? Valich 06:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, you simply need to provide a full citation. You cited a year and page numbers only.  As I am sure you are aware,Scientific American is published monthly, not annually.


 * And please stick to the issues. Your time is better spent logically addressing the challenges to your opinions rather than personally attacking the editors who have challenged them.--Margareta 06:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I posted the following: Doolittle, Ford W. (February 2000). "Uprooting the Tree of Life." Scientific American. pp. 72-77. I gave the month, year and pages, also Vol 282:90.  I did a search, just for you, and see that this article can be downloaded at: [] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Valich (talk • contribs)


 * Ah, the missing link: February. Thanks.  You will see I have also taken the liberty of adding it to your citation above, where it was missing.  Now that I have the issue that the article was published in I can also get it through my own library, but I appreciate your saving my time by providing the PDF.  Now, you see how easy that was?  I look forward to reading the article.--Margareta 15:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The taxo box summary to this article at [] states "The exact relationships of the three domains are still being debated, as is the position of the root of the tree. It has also been suggested that due to lateral gene transfer, a tree may not be the best representation of the genetic relationships of all organisms." This citation should be added underneath the tree in the taxo box, as it was created and drawn along with it, and the alternative "Ring of Life" diagram should be added somewhere as well.  The farther back you go in the tree, the simpler the species, the simpler the genome, the more lateral gene transfer occurred, to the point till you start debating where and what constitutes life.Valich 03:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

For a multiple-origin "Ring of Life" diagram in accordance to early lateral gene transfer - citation listed above - based on previous research projects at UCLA (available to scan and send) see []. See also the alternative Tree of Life based on 16sRNA by Mitchell L. Sogin of Woods Hole Marine Biological Laboratory at []. Valich 06:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It is just not possible to provide all the contents of every article cited. Nor is it possible to keep listing multiple citations to satisfy just a handfull of people who for some reason find this commonly accepted knowledge to be deviant or offensive or challenging to them in some way. A person has only so much time in one lifetime to devote to defense or persuasion of what they already know as fact, and actively discuss as fact amongst colleagues, before they must move on and expand in the area of research. The abstract of the last citation by Yi Chuan (2002) PMID. "The Basic Outline of the Evolution of Single Cell Life-Form." Jan;24(1):104-10. Yi Chuan summarizes the last fifty years of research in this area quite nicely []:

"In 1960s, kingdoms of organisms were charted generally in a five branching form. Later, the endosymbiont hypothesis for the mitochondria and the chloroplast was proposed. The life-form is divided into two forms, the prokaryotes (bacteria) and the eukaryotes. The study of the molecular biology made the progress faster. In 1980s, Woese, CR.asserted that two-domain view of life was no longer true, a three-domain construct, the Bacteria, the Archaea, and the Eukaryotes had to take its place. At first, phylogeny trees based on differences in the amino acid sequences, then among ribosomal RNAs and also nuclear gene from hundreds of microbial species were depicted and many mini phylogenetic trees grouped the species according to their differences in the sequences. It was found that they shared genes between their contemporaries and across the species barriers. At the root of the phylogeny tree, there was not a single common cell, it was replaced by a common ancestral community of primitive cells. Genes transfered rather freely as the transposons swapping between those cells. There was no last universal common ancestor of single cell that could be found in the revised Tree of Life, It was not easy to represent the genealogical patterns of thousands of different families of genes, in one systematic map, therefor there was no trunk at all."
 * Yes, but that just says that determining the origin became much more difficult, and that HGT muddled the waters so much that it wasn't possible to find the trunk any more using modern methods. That's not the same as saying there never WAS a last common ancestor. Adam Cuerden talk 11:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you getting at? What do you mean by "determining the origin"?  We have never determined the origin, so how has this in any way changed now?  Or knowledge of DNA sequencing of primeval organisms has enhanced our ability to determine origins, not inhibited it.  And this is why we can now more clearly see that there isn't one.  How can you say that HGT has "muddled the waters" when it is something that has always been there.  What the realization of HGT has done is to muddle the comprehension of origins for those who cannot understand it.  Are you saying that before we were able to say that we found an LCA, but now we can't?  We never have and never will.  Yi chuan states that there is no universal common ancestor, even now in the new revised tree of life.  Read Lake and Doolittle. Portions of which I have provided on my user talk page. The concept of last common ancestor is instructive until you get into single celled microbial organisms.  Beyond this, it all changes.  What we're trying to do now is to discover the minimal genome species that was an LUCA that consisted of about 260 genes. Beyond this, there was never any LUCA. And even amongst higher level multicellular eukaryotes, there was lateral gene transfer that "muddled the genome," so to speak, so that you cannot anylonger talk about a single LUCA, but must refer to more than one.  Where did the chloroplasts and mitochondria in Eukaryotes com from?  They were engulfed through endosymbiosis with other species.  So shouldn't those other species be included in an analysis of the LUCA?  They were part of that organism.  You see how the entire concept breaks down here?   Yes, it's very helpful to think of a LUCA, but only until you reach that limit. When you start reaching the single cell microbial level, the evolutionary processes, and the notion of a LUCA all change. That's the difference. Valich 08:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Valich, you're simply wrong, here. In the quote above, for example, you chose to highlight this phrase:
 * There was no last universal common ancestor of single cell that could be found in the revised Tree of Life.

You'll note the final part of this clause - that could be found. That is, it is difficult to identify a LUCA due to HGT and other problems, and we may not be able to reconstruct the root of the existing tree, because it is so confused. This is ENTIRELY different from saying that there was no common origin for living things. This is what Adam is saying and what I think you're failing to understand. There is no tree of life, correct, but that does not mean that life did not have a single point of origin. This has NOT been refuted, and all the references you have posted above simply suggest that it cannot be refuted using phylogenetic methods. If you can plausibly convince us of the origin of genetic code without a LUCA, I think we'd all shut up and listen to you. Graft 16:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Not sexy enough
Anyone else find it a bit weird that we include discussion of HGT but not of sexual reproduction? Does this seem to be needlessly privileging phylogenetics? Sure, HGT confounds that, but otherwise I don't see why it's any more or less germane than sex. I seem to recall that we had sex in here in the past and excised it... anyone have any feelings on the subject? Since this is an open(ish) evolutionary conundrum as well, it maybe bears inclusion. Graft 18:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I suspect that it's because it's presumed sexual reproduction is already understood, but this is probably a bit mistaken. Still, we don't need to go into much detail - how about a paragraph on genetic recombination and independent assortment in the basic processes section? Adam Cuerden talk 19:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Gah! And then nature goes and does something like this.--Margareta 17:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Very good Margareta! So much for Muller's ratchet. There are always exceptions to the rule in biology. Like bacteria (planctomycetes ) with nucleus like structures, and fish that have evolved placentas. Makes things interesting!! I noted in a recent Science edition talking about the size of genomes and abundance of non-coding DNA that it maybe proportional to the size of the cell or metabolic rate such than natural selection may select for larger genomes. They had good accordance with osteocyte size and genome size and looked at fossils and present life. Plants followed the cell size trend. Interesting reading. It reminds me of Darwin's finches beak differences, which I always assumed that the genetic variation was either influencing neural crest and bone morphogenetic protein so something directly related would be the gene in question, yet calmodulin seems to be the culprit. Examining genes and traits is not always straightforward. Back to the topic SEX! I get off track sometimes-it reminds me of the ole joke-"Meanwhile ,back at the oasis, the Arabs were eating their dates." Oops, sorry about that. I must have calligraphic Tourette's syndrome. Is there no cure??? Hee, hee, hee. GetAgrippa 18:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Theory or Fact
Take a look at the following. All these state evolution is a theory. Let me quote from the last link "Like all scientific theories, the theory of evolution is a current best explanation." It does not say it is a fact, it says it is a theory and like all theories it is the best explaination that we have. Also I have asked a science teacher that I know if Evolution is a theory and her answer was "Yes." I think she knows more about this than many of you. Thanks:) James, La gloria è a dio 00:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Not sure if you saw this in the clutter of your talk page in the last few days, but Why is evolution described as though it is a fact, though it is just a theory? article sums this up quite nicely. In the context of this article, it describes the observed process, which is indeed fact. The theory itself, however, is indeed a theory. --Hojimachongtalk  01:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Not sure he cares. But, I read those sites, and 3 out of 4 are christian or creationist sites.  One of them misuses the term "theory" to imply a theory is less than a fact.  Lastly, I'll chime in first, that I know MUCH more than your science teacher about this field, especially if her answer to "is Evolution a theory" being yes.  Others will add their two-cents worth soon, I'm sure.  I can't wait to read Filll's response.  66.17.1.189 01:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * James, please also read Evolution as theory and fact in addition to Hojimachong's FAQ link. These words are defined in science in a different way than you are using them, which is likely the source of your confusion. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel that the lead of the article should mention the fact that evolution is a theory in light of the above sources. Note, in the field of science, the word theory conveys a different meaning than when it is used colloquially. Thanks, AnupamTalk 01:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Those sources are 1) mostly christian propaganda, 2) amateurish, and 3) ranks way below better written and peer-reviewed articles.  Evolution is a fact and a theory at the same time.  The POV and canard that James is foisting onto us is trying to lessen the level of Evolution to that of ID and Creation Science, both of which are classified as pseudoscience, and neither qualify as a theory in the scientific sense of the word.  This debate was done several times over, but people don't want to read back in the archives.  It's honestly a waste of typing time.  Orangemarlin 03:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please do not respond verbosely to creationist claims. It is unnecessary to debunk them in detail here. All that is needed is to cite the appropriate reference from The Index to Creationist Claims, a well-sourced reference on the subject. In this case, the "theory not a fact" fallacy is Claim CA201. --FOo 08:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Even better is to just refer them to this page's FAQ, which explains why such issues are no longer debated here. Gnixon 12:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This issue has been discussed. Please see the FAQ.  Gnixon 12:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary pumps
Hi there, I'd like some expert advice on this |this interesting theory within an article up for GA review. I've moved part of the article onto the talk page, as this doesn't match what I understand by the theory of punctuated equilibrium. Any comments on this talk page would be welcome. TimVickers 03:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Cut references
These are excellent references, and would be very good for the HGT section, but are a bit much for the lead.


 * Citing numerous additional sources, the article states in the discussion section that, "plant mitochondria frequently fuse, with their genomes recombining, which makes it easy to imagine multiple mitochondrial genes being acquired in a single event involving whole-mitochondrial transfer." This is process is relatively common and well studied in bacteria.





We should definately add these - and the references left in the lead - to the section on gene flow (encompassing HGT, hybridisation, etc) Adam Cuerden talk 11:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Why are there references in the intro at all? The introduction is supposed to be a summary of the rest of the article and shouldn't contain info that isn't elsewhere in the article. The references should go in the article body. Joe D (t) 16:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Controversial topics usually end up needing them anyway, as it helps protect them from drive-by POV, by setting a "standard" that must be lived up to. Adam Cuerden talk 16:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I cut those three references but I guarantee you that someone will now put in a "need citation" tag. Then I'll put them back in, I guess? The alternative is to add in parentheses :(see: Mechanisms of evolution: New Species below)", and create a new subsection.Valich 22:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Richard Dawkins article solved this problem by adding HTML comments stating that the reference was later in the article. Joe D (t) 11:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

intro: suggest removing reference to "types"
The term suggests typological thinking, not required in the context. Also, many would associate speciation with reproductive isolation. I suggest "at some point diverging populations become sufficiently distinct that they may be considered distinct species, in particular if the capacity is lost for interbreeding between the populations. Dfarrar 02:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Universal Genetic Code
Please do not use this term. It is extremely out-dated and misleading. Valich 04:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I am writing a new article on it. We do not have proof that the genetic code, as we know it on Earth, is "universal" to the universe. There are many alternative possibilities to the current genetic code, and Watson and Crick tried a host of others before finally stumbling on the correct 4-base, 3-code word, double-helix that pertains to life on Earth. There are numerous other genetic codes and the National Center for Biotechnology Information NCBI keeps a listing of all of them that I'm sure you can find somewhere on there extensive website.

Children in Junior High School, and even Elementary School today learn about genetics, and I have even heard of them teaching PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) techniques in High School. Please give the up-and-coming younger generation some credit. There is no need to keep this article so simple-minded in thought and terminology that it not only gives innacurate and incorrect concepts, but demotes science. The article should explain evolution, but also challenge the readers' interest with thoughts and ideas and terminology that make her or him want to look up more - to understand more about this exciting field.

The word "Universal Genetic Code" is an old-fashioned name for the standard genetic code and is no longer used. It was once thought that there existed just one, universal genetic code used by all living organisms. However, beginning in 1979, numerous non standard genetic codes have been discovered. Thus there is no universal genetic code and the phrase needs be avoided. "Back in the early 1970s, evolutionary biologists did think that a given piece of DNA specified the same protein subunit in every living thing, and that the genetic code was thus universal. This was unlikely to have happened by chance, so it was interpreted as evidence that every organism had inherited its genetic code from a single common ancestor. In 1979, however, exceptions to the code were found in mitochondria, the tiny energy factories inside cells. Biologists subsequently found exceptions in bacteria and in the nuclei of algae and single-celled animals. It is now clear that the genetic code is not the same in all living things." And this provides some possible evidence that all living things did not have only one single universal common origin, or a single Last Universal Common Ancestor.Valich 04:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Really, Valich, you need to learn a bit about creationism - you've just quoted Jonathan Wells as if he had something relevant to say about biology, when he's said he took a degree in biology at the request of Sun Myung Moon in order to tear apart evolution.


 * In fact, the code is mostly universal, with a few slight variations in some branches of life, and the term remains in use. Adam Cuerden talk 05:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Universal is a euphemism (not universe but earth)for the ubiquitous standard code. The differences that some mitochondria, chloroplast, prokaryotes, etc exhibit is still modified from the standard code. All life ,especially plants and bacteria, demonstrate evidence of HGT, including humans. The concept of the LUCA is a theoretical construct (a grade) that most evolutionary biologist agree (recent evolutionary biology meeting described in Science) was already complex, also gene loss was probably instrumental in the birth of bacteria as well as HGT. HGT makes finding the root impractical, but not impossible. Bapteste E, Brochier C. On the conceptual difficulties in rooting the tree of life. Trends Microbiol. 2004 Jan;12(1):9-13. Review. PMID: 14700546 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE Lake JA, Herbold CW, Rivera MC, Servin JA, Skophammer RG. Rooting the tree of life using nonubiquitous genes. Mol Biol Evol. 2007 Jan;24(1):130-6. Epub 2006 Oct 5. PMID: 17023560 [PubMed - in process] Cavalier-Smith T. Rooting the tree of life by transition analyses. Biol Direct. 2006 Jul 11;1:19. PMID: 16834776 [PubMed - in process] Baldauf SL The Deep Roots of Eukaryotes Science 13 June 2003 300: 1703-1706 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1085544] (in Viewpoint) Toward Automatic Reconstruction of a Highly Resolved Tree of Life Francesca D. Ciccarelli, Tobias Doerks, Christian von Mering, Christopher J. Creevey, Berend Snel, and Peer Bork Science 3 March 2006 311: 1283-1287 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1123061] (in Reports) Genomics and the Irreducible Nature of Eukaryote Cells C. G. Kurland, L. J. Collins, and D. Penny Science 19 May 2006 312: 1011-1014 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1121674] (in Review).GetAgrippa 21:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It also makes a useful term for describing evolutionary evidence - "universal genetic code" brings up the right images, if perhaps very slightly too strong of ones. Adam Cuerden talk 21:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Pshaw. I think anyone worth their salt would agree that even the variations that make the standard genetic code non-universal are obvious derivations, and that they can't really be called a "different" code apropos of origins. Graft 21:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Valich is right and I'm shocked that anyone would disagree with this, when Genetic Code states clearly that the canonical genetic code is not universal. One defender of "universal genetic code" seems to understand that it is not universal, but says that this term "brings up the right images". If there is no literally correct way to defend the "right image", then its probably not "right" is it? In fact, the wide distribution of the canonical genetic code, though it is not universal, leads to the inference that it is ancestral to all of cellular life. To make this inference seem definitive by loading up the rhetoric with incorrect terms is poor scholarship. Dabs 13:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

LUCA and the meaning of the Tree of Life diagram
I think I may be able to add some clarity to the recent discussions of Valich's use of the 16s rRNA Tree of Life figure to support his argument that there was no LUCA.

Valich has, here and in discussions on other users' talk pages, repeatedly brought up the "Tree of Life based on 16s rRNA by Mitchell Sogin of Woods Hill on the TOL Website at []" as evidence for his statement that "there is not, nor ever will be a LUCA." To quote Valich from Adam Cuerden's talk page:


 * "Look at the Tree of Life based on 16s rRNA by Mitchell Sogin of Woods Hill on the TOL Website at []. The three domains are not rooted, nor is the Eukaryote Crown Group rooted to the Archaea and Bacteria Domains. Mention of an unrooted tree, the Ring of Life, or the fact that there is not, nor ever will be a LUCA, should be mentioned somewhere in the introductionValich 04:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)"

He has mentioned this graphic a number of times, but I believe he is misinterpreting it and the references in the caption to it being "unrooted." To get clarification of this issue and the meaning of the term "unrooted" in the caption to the graphic, I emailed Dr. Sogin, the author of the graphic. My query to Dr. Sogin stated:


 * "I am writing with a question regarding your 'Universal and Eukaryote Phylogenetic Trees Based on 16s rDNA,' posted at Tree of Life Web at http://tolweb.org/notes/?note_id=54. This graphic is being used by an editor of the evolution article at Wikipedia to argue that there were multiple origins of life and no such thing as a 'Last Universal Common Ancestor.'  Specifically, the editor claims that the fact that the caption of the figure says it is 'unrooted' refers to multiple origins of life.


 * "I believe he is misinterpreting the graphic and the caption. It appears to me that the centerpoints of the graphics indicate where the lineages are branching off from one another, and that the term 'unrooted' in the caption simply means that the exact 'root' is unknown and thus not depicted.


 * "I find your figure very interesting and I was hoping you could shed some light on this matter.

Dr. Sogin sent me a brief reply via his cell phone, which I initially posted here. He later sent me a longer reply. I am replacing the cell phone message with the longer message, as I think it is this latter that he would prefer to have posted:


 * "I hope you received my response to this e-mail sent from my cell phone. You are correct about the interpretation of the figure. The tree is unrooted which means no attempt is made to suggest which lineages are deepest branching. It was drawn this way to avoid a controversy that persists to this day regarding the identity of the protists that branched first in the eukaryotic evolutionary lineage. It in no way implies multiple origins of life. I hope you can set the editor of that Wikipedia page on the correct track. You may cite me on this comment."

I hope this is helpful.

(I know you're not typically supposed to delete comments from talk pages; I hope everyone will forgive me in this one case our of respect for Dr. Sogin)--Margareta 21:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is an extensive literature that Valich does not mention with other analyses. I mentioned some up above and the paper looking at indels seems an interesting strategy. He also fails to mention articles the last five-seven years examining the LUCA issue. Further, there are plenty of reliable analyses studying bacteria evolution despite HGT. I am with Graft below and his comments "Where's the sex?". A true conundrum. GetAgrippa 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There may be a misunderstanding here. The fact that the common ancestor may have been a community, rather than a single well-defined cell, does not imply a "multiple origin of life". Rather, the idea is that in the earlier stages of life (before the bacteria-archaea-eukarya separation), HGT was so rife that no single ancestral cell (indeed, no lineage) can be meaningfully identified; then, at some point, certain cells reach a degree of complexity such that HGT cannot occur to the same extent, creating independent, well-defined lineages for the first time. See Woese's paper, aptly titled "The universal ancestor.": "The universal ancestor is not a discrete entity. It is, rather, a diverse community of cells that survives and evolves as a biological unit. This communal ancestor has a physical history but not a genealogical one. Over time, this ancestor refined into a smaller number of increasingly complex cell types with the ancestors of the three primary groupings of organisms arising as a result." Again, this does not imply that life has appeared independently at several locations. It does not significantly alter the general picture of common descent, either. --Thomas Arelatensis 14:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Thomas. I really did my best to characterize Valich's arguments as accurately as possible in the context of my query, and I drew on several posts to do so, but I easily could have misunderstood some part of them (wouldn't be the first time!)  Anyway your comment is very interesting and thought-provoking.  In light of what you say, and the abstract you posted, I do wonder if the whole discussion is really just hair-splitting, at least in the context of the Wikipedia articles.


 * This discussion has made me think very carefully about the use of phrases like "common descent" and "ancestor." If we see evolution happening at the level of populations, it seems like an oversimplification to imply that the "ancestor" of any species was actually a single individual.  For example, let's say there's a brown mouse whose population is split into two, one of which evolves over time into white mice and the other into black mice.  The white and black mice would be descendants of the sub-populations of the brown mice, so though we would say the brown mouse is an "ancestor" of the white and black mice, we wouldn't really mean that one brown mouse was the "ancestor."  Even though we use jargon like "common ancestor" when discussing trees (or rings, or webs, whatever) that developed well after the origins of life, I think most people who are really familiar with these terms are aware that they are referring to populations, not individuals.  For those who aren't, I wonder how important the conceptual difference really is--the more they learn about evolution, the more they will come to understand this before the difference really becomes important.  (But then, maybe I'm misunderstanding something).


 * So does this change as we start looking closer at life's origins? Does the idea of the LUCA as a a "diverse community of cells that survives and evolves as a biological unit" with "a physical history but not a genealogical one," as opposed to the LUCA as a single cell, fundamentally change the idea of a LUCA or of common descent?  Thomas, you say it doesn't, at least as it concerns the latter, and I would agree with you.  If this is the case, then the distinction may be worth mentioning somewhere deeper within the common descent' and related articles, but would not be worth mentioning in a lead here or elsewhere.


 * Finally, would you say that this is an issue that is fairly settled yet? I have seen a few articles by Woese, some much more recent than the one you cite, and he does seem to be in the forefront of thinking on this particular hypothesis, but it is hard to say how widely these ideas have been accepted in the scientific community. I see that the article you give has been cited 272 times, and while I have not reviewed most of the citing articles (I do have other things to do!), one of the more recent ones, from last year (Dagan 2006, Genome Biol. 7(10):118)), states in the abstract: "biologists need to depart from the preconceived notion that all genomes are related by a single bifurcating tree."  If writers are still feeling the need to making this point, can there be a consensus yet?  Many of the more recent abstracts still talk about a LUCA. This very cursory look indicates to me that this is still a subject of debate  and study, and far from settled.--Margareta 16:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that what you say above applies to sexually reproducing populations. Asexual organisms (as LUCA must have been) reproduce clonally, and so a single organism MUST be the common ancestor (barring HGT). This, I think, is what Thomas is indicating. I think this is merely a semantic difference between our treatment of HGT and sexual reproduction. The latter, we're willing to accept represents a single organism despite the confused history. The former, because it can jump across species boundaries, we are not. For the record, Doolittle (Curr Opin Struct Biol. 2000 Jun 10(3):355-8) calls Woese a "radical" in this regard; I think most people would be content to say the reconstruction of LUCA is impossible, not that LUCA does not exist. Graft 17:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah yes, I see (damn that sex again). And thanks for putting Woese in some context.--Margareta 17:38, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, lest I be accused of mischaracterizing Doolittle, I'll note that he goes on to say that Woese's position has considerable support. What he says of relevance to the discussion above is:
 * How could such a population [of numerous progenitor organisms] give rise to two (and then three) discrete cellular domains without passing through a bottleneck represented by a single cellular universal ancestor? Perhaps in almost the same way that sexually reproducing species speciate, giving rise to daughter species whose gene pools are initially similar to those of the parent species and contain very many more different alleles than are borne by any one genome. (What is crucially not the same is that the genomes of the progenote population — like those of different modern prokaryotes — bore many different genes, not just different alleles.) Thus, there is no more reason to imagine only a single first kind of cell as the progenitor of all contemporary life than there is to imagine only Adam and Eve as progenitors of the human species.
 * Graft 20:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There is just as much credible scientific evidence to support a "multiple origin of life" as there is to support a "single common ancestor," and if the later is going to be stated in the intro then insert a "POV-Section" tag:

"Using simple stochastic models for diversification and extinction, we conclude: (i) the probability of survival of life is low unless there are multiple origins, and (ii) given survival of life and given as many as 10 independent origins of life, the odds are that all but one would have gone extinct, yielding the monophyletic biota we have now. The fact of the survival of our particular form of life does not imply that it was unique or superior." "Multiple Origins of Life." 2007 [][]

"The possibility for multiple origins of life is an open question with profound implications for detecting life elsewhere in the universe."[]

"There is indeed evidence of multiple origins of life." []

Wikipedia is accurate, but progressive. Most of the sources cited under single origin of life in the intro support lateral gene transfer: multiple origins, not a "single origin." Do a quick search on the net and you'll come up with over 300 sources that support or suggest the possibility of a "multiple origin" point of view. To quote George Beadle, “I have a persistent feeling that any simple concept in biology must be wrong...but...Do not discard a hypothesis just because it is simple - it might be right.”Valich 04:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The Science article describing the evolutionary biology meeting discussing LUCA stated clearly their was no consensus on what LUCA was but only that whatever it was it was clearly already complex. The origin of life is not the same subject as the LUCA, it is generally accepted the possiblity of life originating more than once given the conditions and being very different, however many also firmly believe that life could not have originated on earth given the conditions. Further there is evidence from metanalysis of tRNA that the genetic code may be as old earth itself (shortly after earth formed). Evolution makes sense, but the origin of life is a personal paradox because I tend to believe that life could not have originated on earth (many of the conditions posited as likely sources of lifes' origin have and still exist on earth today so I can't see life spontaneously evolving on earth least it still does), but then again I don't believe in extraterrestrial life either. In any case if one deletes common descent from the evolution equation then evolution would no longer be fact nor theory. To quote George Beadle, “I have a persistent feeling that any simple concept in biology must be wrong... Hmmm, so much for parsimony and cladistics. Valich I applaud your scholarly contribution of peer reviewed references as usually you just get POV arguments with no attempt to justify an argument with the literature. I don't think it would be appropriate to drop common descent or LUCA but it doesn't have to state it as a single organism (the LUCA Wikipedia article clearly states it could be multiple organisms). GetAgrippa 14:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, first, equating "lateral gene transfer" with "multiple origins of life" is pushing things a bit ("multiple origins" would suggest that life sprouted up independently in many separate places - a population LUCA implies no such thing). But, more importantly, this is not related to the question of the existence of a LUCA. The supposed ancestral population of massively gene-swapping "pre-prokaryotic" organisms is not in contradiction with the idea of a LUCA - it is the LUCA. Woese's paper (which is the seminal source of this discussion) makes the point quite elegantly. The fact that the LUCA was a (presumably well-localised) population rather than one single cell does not change the picture for common descent in general.
 * In other words, the Tree of Life still has a single "origin"; but if we look at it with a magnifier, we see that it is actually a mesh of interconnecting fibers, rather than one single filament. --Thomas Arelatensis 18:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's basically the same assumptions that I have been making: that there were multiple origins of life - what you are downgrading to "fibers" (whatever that means?) - that combined/evolved with lateral gene transfer to somehow get an outcome of "universal common descent." I'm saying that there were multiple origins of life, and that because of the similarities in environmental conditions and selective pressures, all equated a same genotype-phenotype, combining and interweaving through gene transfer, with an outcome of a universal common ancestor. I find it extremely difficult to believe that in our vast enormous world of space and endless possibilities that in a given extended time frame and the exact same environmental conditions spread out everywhere, that in our universe/Earth only produced one single origin of life organism. Only one? That's ridiculous. But it's part and parcel to our meager human mindset. We look at "one" as being the simplest to understand: one God, one Earth, one Beginning, one Universe, one time frame, 3-dimensions - only because that's all our human eyes and meager human understanding can see. There was more than one universal common ancestor; but still, we are descended from a universal common ancestor. The concept breaks down at the microbial single cell level. When you go beyond that, the way I see it - and they're not fibers - you cannot talked about a LUCA anymore. What we're working on now is the hypothetical smallest genome of the LUCA. When that is realized, then we'll have a "hypothetical LUCA." And what does that mean? It's not real: it's hypothetical. So there is no "real" LUCA.Valich 05:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest offloading most of this discussion to the common descent and LUCA articles, where it belongs. For the purpose of this article, I suggest using a simple phrase like "All modern living beings are descended from a common ancestor (or at least a common ancestral population - see common descent)." This should provide an adequate balance between conciseness and completeness.--Thomas Arelatensis 18:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Thomas, the voice of reason and a good suggestion. It is well that an article should align with other related articles so there is no confusion and there is continuity. I agree with an adequate balance of concise and precise. GetAgrippa 18:17, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Thomas's suggestion. Discussions like these are almost as inappropriate here as the ones debating whether or not evolution is true.  It's not our place to debate the subject itself.  Let's find a reliable source explaining the current point of view of the scientific community, cite it, and move on.  If it takes more than an extra clause to get all the nuances right, save it for the body of the article or the appropriate main article. Gnixon 06:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The source of this debate, I think, and thus the difficulty with just finding "a reliable source explaining the current point of view of the scientific community," and moving on, is that there has been disagreement over what the reliable sources being cited actually mean and contain. Sources were being used to support statements that, in my view, were not supported by those sources, however attempts to address that issue were not leading to fruitful discussions over what statements the sources actually could verify.


 * My purpose in starting this thread was that there had been so much back and forth over this particular reference, with one editor saying the source said one thing and other editors arguing that it did not. Rather than continue what seemed to be becoming circular arguments, I decided to approach the author of the source itself to learn his true intent.  Now we know that Mitchell Sogin's Tree of Life diagram [] was not intended by him to imply multiple origins of life, and that his description of the tree as "unrooted" only means that the root is not known, not that it doesn't exist, so this source should not be used to support a multiple origin argument, and certainly not to support a statement that this is the scientific consensus.  That isn't to say that there might not be other good sources.


 * Of course, I don't want to get into a round-robin argument on each and every source over whether it does or does not support that point of view. There must be an easier way!  Like Gnixon and GetAgrippa, I approve of Thomas Arelatensis's proposed solution and suggest we leave it there.--Margareta 23:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Based on Thomas's suggestion, I've edited the the intro to say
 * Evidence such as the wide distribution of the canonical genetic code indicates that all known cellular organisms are ultimately descended from a common ancestral population.

This is a small change from the text that was there before. Is it satisfactory to everyone? If so, the next task would be to cut most of the 4 billion citations at the end of the sentence. Cheers, Gnixon 15:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice, except I think the phrase "canonical genetic code" is too jargony for the lead. Can we find a phrase that is a little more accessible to the novice reader?


 * Also, the last 2 paragraphs of the horizontal gene transfer section of the page could use some reworking in light of the outcome of this discussion.--Margareta 18:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change
This article is a bit long, couldn't we just remove the sections that have their own articles and just link to those articles or just give a brief summary of each? It takes really long to open this on my dialup internet browser. BTW, the talk page should be archived again Ratso 01:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is to long at all. Peace:) --James, La gloria è a dio 01:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I do ! --Thomas Arelatensis 13:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Me too! (Notice discussions above about the length issue.)Gnixon 13:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There has not been a consensus for a further reduction of the length of Evolution since the debate on 8 February. At that time, a number of previous contributors argued that it was already short enough, at around 65kb, and they suggested we not target a specific length. The article shrank a lot between mid-December and mid-January, and I agree with the February 8 consensus that it is now short enough. Though one might argue that there are still some details that might be omitted in specific sections to reduce complexity (the type of items that Silence used to call 'trivia'). The article currently stands at 71kb. EdJohnston 15:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a pretty complex topic: To give a proper overview needs some length, and all those references are probably extending it a fair bit.


 * Anyway, I think every section has a subarticle, so that'd reduce it to... the lead and a bit of introductory material for the supergroupings. Adam Cuerden talk 18:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that everyone is constantly adding their caveats and extra bits of detail, and they tend to add them too high up in the hierarchy of the article and it's sub-articles. People read the article and see their favorite topic given only brief mention, so they add several paragraphs at a level of detail better suited for a "main article." Or, they glance at the intro, see some nuance missing, and add 10 extra clauses to an already unwieldy sentence. The article naturally swells over time, so it needs to be regularly trimmed back if it's going to stay (become?) readable. (IMHO) Gnixon 15:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

"Sampling Error"
In the lead, can we come up with a way that "sampling error" in relation to genetic drift can be phrased in a more layperson-oriented fashion?--Margareta 18:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "...as over large numbers the random changes tend to average out, but, in small populations, the fate of any one individual (and all his genes) matters far more." - A little wordy, but you could always use half of it (large or small).Adam Cuerden talk 19:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm.... nice start, but let's keep working on it.--Margareta 19:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the easiest way to fix a troublesome phrase is to just delete it. I think the simpler sentence still gets the point across, and more detail can be included in the genetic drift article.--Margareta 18:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I definitely want to keep that idea in there. Drift is hard to understand and important to understand. It is ESPECIALLY important that people understand evolution as a stochastic and not a deterministic process, including selection. I think a second clause simply explaining "sampling error" might work, but I'm also not overly concerned with making the idea of "sampling error" more accessible simply by making genetic drift less so. This is the article on evolution; our allegiance should be first to clarifying ideas relevant to that. Graft 16:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Remember to balance completeness with conciseness in the introduction. Genetic drift is an important modification to the idea of evolution by natural selection, but I'm not sure it's so important that it needs to be explained in the introduction.  Gnixon 18:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not an article about natural selection, it is an article about evolution. Graft 18:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't clear. If I was introducing evolution to someone who hadn't heard of it, I would say something like... 1) we have all these different species because they evolved into their present forms; 2) they got there over a long period of time, mostly by natural selection picking from among random variations (this is where Darwin and everyone else went Aha!); 3) sometimes statistical effects are important, especially if populations are small (this is an importan issue if you're trying to understand evolution more deeply).  I'm just saying that (3) might not make it into my introductory paragraph.  I agree with Margareta's comment below.  Gnixon 21:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, and Margareta's right. I withdraw my objections. Graft 21:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Woot! Consensus has been reached!  (Dontcha just love it when it's that easy?)--Margareta 02:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Woot-woot! Yeah, baby, consensus---go all of us.  This was a good discussion.  Now can we come up with a good edit for the article?  Gnixon 13:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The reader is not going to come to an understanding of genetic drift via the lead. We want to keep them reading so they get to the more detailed sections, not have them stumble early on over unfamiliar jargon.  Remember the lead is an introductory overview.--Margareta 18:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a difference between "simple" and "dumbed-down" ("horse with favoured odds" ??). At least a mention of genetic drift in the lead is necessary, for a simple reason: the uninitiated reader might come to believe that evolution = natural selection, a common misunderstanding that we should combat. Of course this does not mean that we should absolutely fudge a complete discussion of genetic drift in the lead. The current version seems OK to me on this point.--Thomas Arelatensis 14:17, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Right... The question wasn't about whether to cover genetic drift, just whether to use jargon, i.e. the term "sampling error," to describe it in the lead.--Margareta 16:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking of which, I'm not wedded to that horse analogy. I just thought it was a good way to convey the mix of the action of drift and selective pressure. Feel free to ax it if you have a better notion. Graft 16:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The comments from MandaClair below are relevant to this discussion. Gnixon 17:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)