Talk:Ex-Haredim

Help this article!
I started this article by copying some info from he:יציאה בשאלה, but I'm not that good at Hebrew, and I certainly couldn't translate the whole article. If someone else can, that'd be great.  &mdash;msh210 19:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * WP:CITE. The Hebrew Wikipedia alone is a very poor source of information. Studies from mental health journals, newspaper articles etc are much better. The fact that it's an FA on he means little. Articles which poke fun at the Orthodox are probably fairly well received anyway. JFW | T@lk  12:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Is it now Wikipedia's job to document the existence of this phenomenon? The article on he actually links to an English website, but I'm not going to be the one to suggest that it be used as a resource. Even disillusioned youth are not allowed to part with their religion without some organisation pretending to represent them. There is no indication that this site advises that there are other branches of Orthodoxy that "yotzeim bisheleilah" may be interested in. JFW | T@lk  12:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "Is it WP's job to document the existence of the phenomenon?" Only to the extent it's WP's job to document the existence of any phenomenon. It's certainly encyclopedic. And why do you bring up an organization representing the youth? There's no mention of any organization in the en: article, at least.&mdash;msh210 07:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * How well is the phenomen documented? Not very well, given the paucity of support. It seems to be a catchphrase used by anti-religious organisations. I deliberately did not provide a link for the English-language site linked from the He article, as I do not wish to be a facilitator in their work. In my view, an organisation that "liberates" estranged young Orthodox Jews without providing access to alterative forms of Orthodoxy is making a grave error. JFW | T@lk  10:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, what organization?? And see others' posts, below.&mdash;msh210 04:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The whole thing looks like original research, and Wikipedia doesn't cite itself as a source. Jayjg (talk) 15:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Please consider the following sources. (Please don't be distracted by the untactful titles of some.)
 * Dr. Sarit Barzilai, Lifrots Mea Shearim - Masa el Olamam shel ha-Yotsim li-Sh'eila (means "Bursting the 'hundred gates' of Mea Shearim: journey into the world of disaffiliators"), Yedioth Ahronoth books, 2004. ISBN 9655111954
 * M. Bar-Lev et al., "Culture-specific factors which cause Jews in Israel to abandon religious practice", in M. Bar-Lev and W. Shaffir (editors), Leaving Religion and Religious Life: Patterns and Dynamics (in English), Elsevier, 1998 (ISBN 0-7623-0215-1)
 * Shimon Lev, veshe-Yodea Lish'ol (means "And the one who knows how to question"), Hargol (press), 5758 (year 1998), ISBN 9659021615. Library of Congress: DS126.6.A2 L54
 * The book by Lev is listed in the Jewish National & University Library catalog, which has created classification "296.697 Secularization, Hozrim Bi’sheela" to contain this book and nine others.
 * Roitel Shanur, "ha-Kol Mathil ba-Mishpaha" (means "It all starts in the family"), Arutz Sheva, August 2005.
 * This article by Shanur concerns the numbers of religious students who adopt a secular lifestyle. The article is clearly relevant to our topic here, as it uses the term hozrim bish'ela for the phenomenon (although it prefers other terms, such as "datlash", an acronym of "dati leshe-avar", meaning "formerly religious"). The article notes that in recent years a statistic of 20% was reported in bold headlines of the biggest Israeli newspapers based on Mordechai Bar-Lev's research. It expresses the contrary argument that, according to research of Aharon Trop, the phenomenon actually only occurs at low rates once certain subgroups are removed from consideration.
 * --Hoziron 10:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Oops, here are two more sources. The Fisherman book is apparently the remaining one of the three print references in the Hebrew article, although a different author and even a somewhat different title are given there:
 * Shraga Fisherman, Datlashim: Noar ha-Kipot ha-Zrukot (means "Formerly religious: Youth of the discarded kippahs"), Mikhlelet Orot Israel, 1998. ISBN 9659033605. Library of Congress: BF773 .F57
 * Donna Rosenthal, Israelis: Ordinary People in an Extraordinary Land. Free Press, 2003. ISBN 0-684-86972-1. Official website . Library of Congress: DS133.3 .R67 Relevant excerpt (pages 218-9 of the hardcover):
 * Whether they live in Israel or in settlements, many Orthodox families are grappling with the pain of children flirting with secularity. When the book Generation of Discarded Kippot came out about why so many young men are taking off their kippot and women "leaving the path," the author, educational psychologist Shraga Fisherman, expected to be denounced. Instead, parents and teachers have been inviting this dean of a religious Zionist college in the West Bank settlement of Elkanah to give lectures. ... Although there are no reliable statistics about how many Orthodox youth, settlers and nonsettlers, are going secular, he cites one poll showing that as many as 23 percent are datlashim, the Hebrew acronym for "formerly religious."


 * P.S. Sources in languages other than English are allowed by Wikipedia policy. In fact they are vital in order to counter systemic bias because "information on [non-anglophone] topics should at least equal that available on anglophone topics. However, it is apparent that anglophone topics dominate."
 * --Hoziron 11:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Horizon, if you think you can cover this subject, please go ahead. I think I will be unable to write from a NPOV on this. On the other hand, this process of assimilation and secularisation is not specific for this generation - Jews have been abandoning their religion since this was legally and practically possible - the 19th century is a good example. Whether this is a specific phenomenon is presently unclear from the article. I actually dispute there is a specific phenomenon other than there appear to be some groups interested in enlightening the poor darkened souls of religious youths, and others that are less blatantly anti-Orthodox but support people during such a transition. JFW | T@lk  22:22, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have some difficulties with the subject myself. I still don't have good sources available to me. Those books aren't easy for me to obtain (although I still say that they are evidence that the phenomenon exists and is documented). I don't want to translate the whole Hebrew article literally because of a few problems: 1. It doesn't cite sources for various generalizations that characterize groups of people and their social behavior. 2. It doesn't place the subject in a worldwide context. 3. In particular it doesn't clarify what is special about "yetzia bish'ela", for example any distinction from Jewish secularization in, say, 18th-century Germany. (On the other hand, our article Baal teshuva probably doesn't clarify what is special about late 20th century Jewish religious revival vs. that of any other period.)
 * --Hoziron 13:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Is this correct in English?
"the ones who leaves their religion" I think that if they are plural ("ones") they should "leave" and not "leaves". But I'm not sure.--132.68.1.29 14:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Famous yotz'im bish'ela
I'm not familiar with the expression, but isn't an anachronism to use a modern Israeli term to describe a Talmudic rabbi, a 17th century philosopher, and two giants of Yiddish literature who both died before the British Mandate of Palestine? Are there no famous contemporary Jews who are referred to as yotz'im bish'ela? — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed the title of this article is inappropriate, not being English nor a well-known phrase used in English. Can someone please come up with an English title for this aricle? --Redaktor (talk) 07:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Malik, I changed it to "famous people who left the religion". I second Redaktor's question: Perhaps there is an English term for article? Shlomke (talk) 23:47, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Merging with Off the derech article
I propose that this page be merged with the article called off the derech. Yetzia bish'eila is the Hebrew term, while off the derech is more commonly used in English to refer to the same issue.

All the content can be preserved, but moved into the other article. Openedknowledge (talk) 22:31, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * AgreeCaseeart (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Agree as well OTDQueen  —Preceding undated comment added 21:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, it looks like the same phenomenon is being referred to here.--Pharos (talk) 11:49, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. I will proceed with merge. Lokshin kugel (talk) 21:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC)