Talk:Ex-Muslim activism in Kerala

Refs

 * Ex-Muslims in India find solidarity online as they face social and familial rejection
 * Ex-Muslims in India find solidarity online as they face social and familial rejection


 * Why Muslims in Kerala are Leaving Islam ~ P. Sandeep news18.com Why Muslims in Kerala are Leaving Islam Why Muslims in Kerala are Leaving Islam January 25, 2022


 * English: The Print, The New India Express, The Indian Express, News 18, Sindhunews
 * Malayalam: Malabar News Janmbhoomi
 * Tamil: இஸ்லாம் மதத்தை விட்டு வெளியேறியவர்களுக்காக பிரத்யேக அமைப்பு தொடக்கம் - காரணம் என்ன? tamil.news18
 *  Hindi: लोग छोड़ रहे इस्लाम:..एक्स मुस्लिम्स ऑफ केरल संगठन आया सामने ~ संध्या द्विवेदी

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... This is a registered organization like Ex-Muslims of North America, references provided are from news reports and is a notable organization in India --Atheist kerala (talk) 15:07, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because..(Kaipally Nishad started the draft, but after many editors contributed to this article. ) --Atheist kerala (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because Ex- Muslims of Kerala is a registered organization. It provides legal assistance to Ex - Muslims who face discrimination on the basis of religion. There is ample evidence from reputed news portals about the formation and day to day activities of the organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keralafeminist (talk • contribs) 15:53, 9 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh sorry there was a edit conflict here and I did not realize a different user posting similar contest message. Updating own comment.
 * There is no doubt about notability of the topic. Many times it takes more than notability. I had specially written a note to avoid hurry to bring article in mainspace from draft, with hurried effort you might end up in endless talk page debates with those who find difficult to digest such topics.
 * There is no doubt about notability of the topic. Many times it takes more than notability. I had specially written a note to avoid hurry to bring article in mainspace from draft, with hurried effort you might end up in endless talk page debates with those who find difficult to digest such topics.

Anyways I don't know why did you remove Washington post reference from the article. Wikipedians have bias of feeling assured with western references. I suggest you still write with Washington post reference that will help sustain the article with less debate.

Best wishes to you. Just learn to have strategic patience, and to be slow and steady. Remember Slow and steady wins the race. happy editing.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 16:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Ex-Muslim movement of Kerala

 * You might have seen notability head note tag. With yesterday's news coverage *English: 1, 2 Malayalam: Malabar News 3, I suppose article fulfills the need of significant coverage needed for notability. Let us hope some experienced user reconsiders notability tag. But make a point you do not remove tag on your own otherwise some users may take opportunity to miss–construe.
 * Even if some users won't be able to challenge notability still those news sources where  in the name of organization are not significant might get contested even while in the same news coverage of Kerala ExMuslim movement  is more like Washington Post. So what I suggest is to positively consider renaming the article in the name of  Ex-Muslim movement of Kerala. You may have double benefit in such renaming. One you will have lesser difficulties/ debates with ever contesting users, there by you save your energies. Second is you will have significant content and coverage for the individuals in the movement and their individual activism too. Because most news media cover individual activism more than orgnisation. Withing the same article you can maintain Orgnisation sections too once that grows in size you can again split the Orgnisation  article separate from over all movement. IMHO.
 * Wish you happy editing
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

can i add this pic


Personally I am for adding it in activism section. If some one deletes it then do not get into edit revert war but discuss on talk page and if discussions go longer change your attention to other articles rather than wasting time in discussions of singular article

As I suggested in above section of redirecting title Ex-Muslim movement of Kerala to present title or in vice versa. should give you more flexibility to accommodate activist issues in more relaxed manner.

Thanks

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 05:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No, redirection of title is not needed , as this is an organization and the title should be as it.

Let's see if we can add a new section in the article to accommodate all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atheist kerala (talk • contribs) 21:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Nrws18 reference
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/why-muslims-in-kerala-are-leaving-islam-4694180.html

Please add the points cited in the above reference as well 2601:14D:8701:9E40:51A7:778F:86A2:95A8 (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

news minute reference
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/kerala-group-offers-support-those-who-re-ostracised-leaving-islam-160405?fbclid=IwAR3T7A3HzFnpOQfH-VQLFs5ICqEFzN85I6tjyXU9u396iu9Uos-7QI7Pk3Y

Add this reference, it has many things and also national wide notable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14D:8701:9E40:B0C8:4D2D:2E01:874F (talk) 15:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Content disagreement
The article is well written with sources from international to national news articles, and also you cannot say neutrality is disputed as sources are 3rd pary sources. pinpoint your concerns in talk and you cannot put a tag blatantly.

This is a thread for discussing any tag related thing, and you cannot have a tag without talk concise is made between experienced users and editors

Atheist kerala (talk)

I'm pinging here, have a look on edit war and vandalism going on here


 * I read over the article and it's clearly promotional/non-neutral. So I restored the tags. Accusing someone of vandalism for adding templates while ignoring the issues brought up by them isn't the way to resolve things. Nor is reverted them. Addressing why the templates were added is. In this case, the promotional/non-neutral aspects of the article need to be dealt with. I'm sure you can do that, if not though, the templates will stay until someone else rewrites the article so that it follows the guidelines. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:03, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

, can you please look and see is the tag is relevent ? or just another vandalism from muslim editors ? , specify with point what all are in article for which the tag you placed is justified. If YOU fail to do so, i will remove the tag YOU placed. Atheist kerala (talk)
 * First of all I'm not a Muslim editor. Not that there is any rule that people of a certain religion can't edit certain articles. Anyone can edit any article they feel like. So you should stop making spurious accusations about people, including me. Secondly, Dam222 doesn't have anymore authority to determine if the tags are relevant then I do and I've said they are. Third, it's extremely obvious what is promotional and non-neutral about the article. If your unable to tell then I suggest you familiarize yourself with the relevant guidelines. It's not my responsibility to explain to you what the guidelines say or how they apply though. Nor am I going to copy and paste a bunch of random sentences from the article into this discussion just because you don't want to put the time into figure things out for yourself. That said, most sentences in the article aren't neutrally written. So it should be pretty easy for you or anyone else to figure out what needs correcting. In the meantime, you don't own the article and don't get to remove templates just because you don't like them. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I have now suitably guided User Atheist kerala on his talk page. I am not interested in having any content dispute over this article. Just for info of Adamant1, I will be doing paragraph writing as per credible refs for persecution section after second week of Feb.

Secondly rest of the article is written as per sources and some copy editing also taken place and we can list article for copy editing after rewriting of last section hopefully after mid Feb. Besides I am quite okay to take note of other side into the article for sake of neutrality. If we keep other apprehensions about Times of India aside, MP, Prashanth's this article 'To believe or not' seem to take balanced note of both sides. If you don't have issues with Prashanth's article as source I can include points of other side from there or may be you want to write and then we discuss.

wish you all happy editing and regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 05:26, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'm not interested in having a content dispute over the article either. If your willing to fix the issues then cool. The templates will stay up until you do though. Personally I'm not to worried about noting the other side for the sake of neutrality as I am getting rid of the non-neutral, promotional language that's currently in the article. It doesn't deal with promotion just to cite more sources without also getting rid of what is promotional in the first place. That said, I'm not against you adding better balance to the article as one of several remedies to the problem though. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

My own appraisal

 * Inclusion of Subsection on 'De-radicalization programs' (though may need some re–paraphrasing for relevance) helps balance and indicates article contributing users on their own are thinking in favor of balance and neutrality.


 * We will rewrite Section Persecution as encyclopedic paragraph with help of independent credible sources instead of present list form as mentioned earlier.


 * (For neutrality) updated Background section wording from 'Islamic clerics/ clergy in India' to (some radical) Islamic clerics in India


 * In Club house discussions subsection relevance of Clubhouse is well-suited for discussions compared other forums because it provides an avenue for real-time interaction. is borderline. Not sure to retain the same or not.


 * (For neutrality) In Club house discussions subsection Wording 'lots of people' toned down to 'many people', 'dared to come forward' toned down to 'felt confident to come forward'


 * Here in sentence the highly popular Islamic preacher M. M. Akbar. honorific 'the highly popular' is a used for opposite side. Though Wikipedia is not supposed to entertain honorific but at least users seem to be respecting opposite side that way it has, helped to prove neutrality on part of article contributing editors.


 * This statement The debate acted as a catalyst for many to rethink Islam and its practices in favor of a scientific temper. some may feel border line but there is nothing wrong in writing 'in favor of a scientific temper.' because the other side in the debate too claims their side is scientific only. So I am not sure whether this needs rephrasing and if needs how to do it. Suggestions welcome.


 * Subsection 'Current core committee' similar sections are found in other featured article like Sesame Workshop. Idk if any one thinking of core committee details as promotional at all?


 * CM Liyakkathali's statement (one may agree or not with him) is there about  their own perception of their organisation's objectives, i don't  know if some one wants to classify it as promotional or non neutral and what other Wikipedia users would think about it. More discussion if needed is welcome.


 * Rest in Section orgnisation is info of their own objectives in neutral tone with sources and can we really have an article on orgnisation objectives ?


 * Lead of the article is neutral tone based on neutral source.

Above is my own appraisal, further improvement suggestions are welcome.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 09:56, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the summary of possible improvements, just to give some feedback


 * De-radicalization programs by Kerala government - If the details are classified then there's no way to know if it is successful or not. Even if it wasn't classified though the ​programs success isn't really relevant anyway. It should just say they have a de-radicalization program and leave it at that. Otherwise it's advertising.


 * We will rewrite Section Persecution - The section only include information that is directly related to the organization. This isn't an article about the general topic of Muslim persecution. Otherwise your making it seem like the organization is somehow related to these people and the incidents when there's no connection.


 * In Club house discussions subsection - I'd get rid of it. It's not really relevant and comes off like promo


 * Here in sentence - 'the highly popular' isn't really an honorific. It's just a weasel word and should be gotten rid of.


 * CM Liyakkathali's statement (one may agree or not with him) - I'd say it's fine to keep if it's written as a direct quote. Although the whole "The organization intends to give support and courage to those who wish to come out of the religion and to ensure that those who wish to abandon religion can live without fear" thing should be axed. As it's clearly promo if he said it or not. Putting something promotional in quotes or saying "according to" before it doesn't make it any less promotional. I think the rest is fine because it's just a statement of facts though. If it were me I'd keep the first sentence and cut the rest. As it's sort of off topic.


 * Lead of the article is neutral tone based on neutral source. - My only issue there is the word "floated." Probably "started by" is a better way to put it. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

,

Many thanks for your constructive feed back. As such I had given them suggestion to rename the article as Ex-Muslim movement of Kerala, probably that would have given them some scope for some additional information.

Club house section I can later use in some other article since already I do have reliable journal sources for social media impact and the movement. As of now deleting as per your feed back.

Besides I have made some other changes taking your feedback into account. Personally I am okay for removing persecution section (unless we rename the article as 'Ex-Muslim movement of Kerala'). Only thing I don't know the process to remove section since the section has Copy Vio tag.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 11:08, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

personalisation concerns
You can report in WP:ANI Dam222 🌋 (talk) 12:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Just an FYI is currently indef blocked for being a sock. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:28, 3 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Such things risks even new genuine users might get doubted because some previous one was not behaving up to the mark. Many users simply do not understand personalising disputes harms their own cause more far from any benefits.
 * &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 08:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Addressing the issues

 * Article title is renamed to present title from 'Ex-Muslims of Kerala' to broaden article scope to address doubts over notability and remove feeling of organization advertisement by focusing on activism and deemphasizing organizational part.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 03:26, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Infobox organization
Removing Infobox organization from the article until we find consensus to put back the info boxes again. Mean while we will only use substantially relevant activist names with credible refs who have in the article.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 03:37, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

=== Current core committee ===

Persecution Section
Shifting here temporarily to review citations before putting back info.

04:38, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

On 16th March 2017, H Farooq, a resident of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, father of 2 children, was mercilessly hacked to death by a gang of four. An ex-Muslim, an atheist, and a rationalist, he was killed for his views on Islam and his disbelief in religion. Ex-Muslims cite this incident as an example of the Islamic law which demands killing the murtad, those who leave Islam.

On August 24, 2021, it was revealed that an ISIS cell had plotted to assassinate Jamitha Teacher, an Ex-Muslim rationalist from Kerala. The NIA arrested two women ISIS agents from Kerala, Misha Siddique and Shifa Haris, who were trained to kill Jamitha Teacher under the direction of ISIS leader Muhammad Ameen alias Abu Yahya who was taken into custody by the NIA in March 2021.

On August 2021, Abdul Khader Puthiyangadi, an Indian citizen and a rationalist from Kerala, was arrested by the UAE police and sentenced to prison in UAE for a term of 3 years for criticizing Islam on social media in his native language Malayalam. Islamic Religious leaders and Islamists from Kerala provided Arabic translations of offending material to the UAE police and pressured them into taking action and pressing blasphemy charges.

On 10th January 2022, ex-Muslim rationalist Aneesh Jasy from Tamil Nadu was arrested without bail citing his Facebook posts against Islam. Ex-Muslims of Kerala has offered unconditioned support and is working towards his release.

Persecuted outside India

 * United Arab Emirates,
 * 11 Indians sentenced to   imprisonment for performing a play, Shavamtîni Urumbukal (Malayalam: "Ants feasting on a corpse", written in 1981-82 by Karthikeyan Padiyath ) on May 28, 1992, having allegedly blasphemous passages.


 * Abdul Khader Puthiyangadi


 * Help update the list (On talk page first)

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 10:19, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Copyright violation
I removed some content sourced from Kreately (online wiki) that was also tagged for copyright violation. Although the tag was removed along with the associated contents, those version may need revdel. @Bookku please be on the lookout for more copyright violations found in the article. Venkat TL (talk) 14:14, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your concern and inputs. I was just waiting to restructure one  since I did not know what to do when a tag is in place secondly to have an idea about likely fate of that persecution related article.
 * With today's improvement text similarities were already low but with your message I have taken further care and hopefully with copy edit support from other editors it will go down further.
 * Thanks warm regards &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 15:19, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Scope of article
I think that, under the current title, this draft article suffers from a bit of a problem with its scope. What is different about ex-Muslim activism in Kerala from that in any other Indian state? I think, unless that question can be answered well, the scope should either be larger (to include other states) or smaller (to be about one particular organisation, if it is notable). Phil Bridger (talk) 16:20, 28 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your inputs. I am quite open to other considerations. As of now my personal perception are as follows.


 * Brief: In spite of largely 'unidirectional'  GNocal* influences on the activism, the activism seems limited to the language and the region and also does not seem to be limited by existence of organization.
 * The activism has got national and international media coverage but at least up til now there are no indications of their activism influencing national or international discourse. So IMHO it is okay to take summary note of the activism in India level article, as of now Malayalam activism sounds more regional to my personal perception.


 * Detail Explanation:

1) As of now dilemma in proposition looks to me like explained in the article False dilemma. If there can exist articles relating to Islam in Kerala, then there need not be any difficulty in having article related to Ex Muslims in Kerala. As long as RS is available there need not be problem in accepting an encyclopedic article.

2)


 * a) Understanding in which aspects activism is evolved by multiplex influences (* I will use term GNocal global–national–local), in which aspects is organized, and which aspects individualism persists may make difference in our perception.
 * Any activism is live activity, where as any media or academic coverage may lag behind or remain incomplete.
 * Besides some of the information, which we may know from social media, but some of such social media sources not yet acknowledged by Wikipedia community for sourcing so can not be attributed to but that part of individuality too does exist.


 * b) As far as Kerala is concerned it has almost 100 years history of rationalist movement (and Islamist fanaticism too – this is not to say other religiosity are sans their own percent of fanaticism), Kerala has strong Communist history of roughly 80 years. Aspects of Islamic and Communist – with which ex muslim respond to – i.e. Islamic, Rationalist and Communist influences are GNocal. But ex–Muslim response is largely local (and individual until very recent formation of the orgnisation)


 * c) Malayalam language has vibrant regional literary, multi–media art and intellectual activism This ever evolving influence brings in localisation.


 * d) Though influences are GNocal; activism is mostly (I shall say 99 percent) seems limited in Malayalam language. Visit any of their social media platforms, people of any other language do not understand any of their discourse. There is no Malayalam to other language visible translation activity of their evolving discourse as of now.


 * e) For example, see if you can draw a parallel with Wikipedia–WMF relationship. Though WMF attempts to take care of Wikipedian interests, Wikipedians attempt to retain much of their individuality all Wikipedian activity can not be reduced to WMF. Similarly ex–Muslim organizations attempt to represent their interests in good faith all the individual and virtual activities can not be reduced to the orgnisation. Rather individualism in ex–Muslim activism is much more than cited example.
 * There are enough ex–Muslims and non practicing Muslims to cite who left religion decades before the formation of the orgnisation, similarly there are recent cases one Malayalam movie director also one Bharat Natyam dancer who left Islam without any recourse to the orgnisation, they are active in the Malayalam art segment in their own ways.


 * Last but not least, if basic notability and sourcing is okay then, I am not sure if remaining content issues can not be sorted out better main article space deliberations which is supported with more input mechanisms opportunities if needed.

Thanks and warm regards

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 05:55, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Help requested
I was asked at my talk page for help here. I left a few notes there about larger scale work that IMO needs doing......larger than I could do in my available wiki-minutes. But I'll also make a few tweaks in the article. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)


 * sure! Thank you Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ningalonnichpovuka
 * How did you get to know about this draft? I am just curious. &#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 17:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * i'm working on articles related to atheism on Kerala and in India. Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 18:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Askar Ali (Hudavi),a 24 year old Muslim maulvi from Kerala who was also an imam at a mosque, who left Islam and become a rationalist and freethinker.jpg
 * EA Jabbar and M.M Akbar during the debate, Adv Anil Kumar,President Kerala Yukthivadi Sangham in middle.webp
 * EMu 2.jpg

Refs

 * https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/supreme-court-agrees-to-consider-plea-seeking-declaration-that-shariat-law-wont-apply-to-non-believer-muslim-256392
 * https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/supreme-court-notice-on-plea-to-allow-people-who-have-left-islam-to-inherit-under-secular-rather-than-sharia-law/article68120460.ece
 * https://indianexpress.com/article/india/supreme-court-plea-sharia-ex-muslims-9296680/

&#32;Bookku   (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Restoring back to 25 May 24
I am not sure many of the changes after 26 May 24 would be sustainable with given various WP:Policy and WP:consensus requirements. I suggest restoring back the article preferably to 25 May 24 version. &#32;Bookku   (talk) 11:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk here
@Dpvl talk here first. Neutralhappy (talk) 17:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)