Talk:Ex-gay movement

Recent addition
Darwin Naz recently made a large addition to the article. I accept that the addition was made in good faith and indeed much of it looks helpful. Unfortunately, the addition was in some ways misleading. It also involves an improper synthesis of sources, as described at WP:SYNTH. The first part of the addition lists the main goals of the ex-gay movement, including "coordination with individuals and organizations, particularly opponents of gay and lesbian civil equality to influence public perception and public policy" among other things. It is cited to Ex-Gay Research, a scholarly book edited by Jack Drescher and Kenneth Zucker. The second part states that "These goals rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer", and it is cited to an article in The Atlantic, a non-scholarly popular magazine. The content cited to The Atlantic is misleading, since it is not in fact true that supporters of the ex-gay movement all view sexual orientation as a choice, and nor is it supported by the source provided. The material makes it look as though the popular Atlantic article discusses the goals of the ex-gay movement as described in the scholarly book Ex-Gay Research and shows that they "rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice", which is not the case. What the Atlantic article actually states about "choice" is that, "Ex-gay leaders traveled to churches and appeared on television news programs citing a litany of examples of happily married “former homosexuals” to demonstrate that sexual orientation is a choice and that change is possible." That statement does not support the claim that the goals of ex-gay movement as described in Ex-Gay Research "rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer". FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:21, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement"
Gerald Davison is perhaps one of the first psychologists who practiced conversion therapy, and disavowed it in the early 1970's. He was also the President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies in the 1970's. There isn't much on his wikipedia page regarding this, however this | article here on USC's student blog feautures a lot of quotes from an interview he did. I'm sure there is a better secondary source covering his shift elsewhere, in a book or a journal. At the time they didn't technically call it "ex-gay", but should he be included? He also later supported removing homosexuality from the DSM. --Sxologist (talk) 10:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

"Transformational ministry" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Transformational ministry. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 27 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hog Farm Bacon 23:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Milo Yiannapolos
I think we should add Milo since he’s now ex gay Nlivataye (talk) 12:25, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Merely identifying as "ex-gay" does not make one part of the movement; the people here encouraged folks to dehomosexualize themselves and/or offered training or counseling to do so. --Nat Gertler (talk) 12:54, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Ex-gays without conversion therapy
You have repeatedly tried to insert this text:
 * There are also believers gathered in Christian organizations, such as Your Other Brothers or Voice of the Voiceless, who claim they have not been attracted to homosexuality since their new birth, without having recourse to a conversion therapy. They insist on the importance of welcoming and loving homosexuals, but believe that sexuality should be reserved for heterosexual marriage.

using this NBC source for "Voice of the Voiceless" claims and this Christian Post source on "Your Other Brothers". However, these sources do not actually support the statements that you make. The "Your Other Brothers" articles describe their writers not as being people who have not been attracted to homosexuality, but as "Christian men who experience same-sex attractions" -- no past tense there, nor any mention with regard to whether they've attempted conversion therapy. The Voiceless piece sites he president of the organization as claiming not to have undergone conversion therapy (as well as a couple other people who were not identified as members of the organization) but specifies that the organization has supported conversion therapy. It makes no statement about a stance regarding sex only being within marriage, nor on the importance of welcoming homosexuals. It makes no statement that the one identified member has not been attracted to homosexuality, much less that that is a defining aspect of the membership. There may be things to be said about these two groups, but not this text with these sources. As such, I am removing it (again). --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:56, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * And now you've reworked it and gotten rid of the "Your Other Brothers" material and included "Freedom March", which is the name of both an organization and of events they help organize (but are not sole backers of.) However, the NBC article mentions only the event, not the organizing group, which should not be assumed to include the same people. Neither source discusses them having "new birth" or being "born again" (which is not neutral-point-of-view language anyway.) The new text continues the claim about conversion therapy, when we still only have one person claiming that from Voiceless and the March group claiming only that most of them have not been through such therapy, not that it's a defining characteristic. As such, I am removing it (again). I suggest you discuss what you want to insert and find consensus for it before retrying. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:18, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello . Thank you for the comments. This contribution aims to highlight the fact that ex-gay Christians have not had recourse to conversion therapy. The new version talks about two things:

1 : https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pulse-survivor-others-gather-celebrate-freedom-being-gay-n871651

Ruiz, who said he no longer identifies as gay and denied going to conversion therapy, promoted his decision to attend the event on Facebook.

Daren Mehl, president of Voice of the Voiceless, said he did not seek conversion therapy in his personal journey from homosexuality to heterosexuality. He said the decision was “not forced but a choice.”

https://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-lgbt-men-women-to-share-stories-of-transformation-at-2nd-freedom-march-in-washington-dc.html

The whole notion of "conversion therapy" is misleading, Byrd told CP, "because the majority of us has never experienced conversion therapy; our experiences were encounters with the Holy Spirit that changed our lives."

2 : https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pulse-survivor-others-gather-celebrate-freedom-being-gay-n871651

“I don’t want to tell everyone it’s a ‘gay-to-straight’ thing because God is not calling me to that," Ruiz told NBC News. "I feel that I want to live in a life of purity. I feel that through loving Christ, he will walk me out of any situation. I love the LGBTQ community, I love my family. There’s no hate here, there’s love.”

Fredi and Paul Cleveland, pastors of Koinonia Congregation in Washington, came to the event to support those who had left their gay and transgender identities behind and also to support the message of love.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-lgbt-men-women-to-share-stories-of-transformation-at-2nd-freedom-march-in-washington-dc.html

Through the Freedom Marches, we want to spread messages of love and acceptance for people who have shed their LGBTQ identity and show others that we do exist.

"None of us were ever forced to change or put in a camp; it was a decision that we made to follow after Jesus and His love."
 * Thanks for your help. --ServB1 (talk) 14:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The version you just added has two sentences:
 * Some people say they are no longer gay since they became Christians, without going to conversion therapy.
 * They stress the importance of love for gay people, but believe they have the right to share their ex-gay stories.
 * Number 2 can be batted away quickly. It lists no sources, the claim it makes is not made in either of the prior two sources, and it seems to be putting up a bit of a straw man, as if there is some strong force telling these Americans that they don't have the right to tell their stories.
 * Number 1 has a number of problems. The first source used, the NBC one, does not have people saying they are no longer gay, it says that they no longer identify as gay or that they left their gay identity behind. I may not identify myself as a chubby guy, but that doesn't mean I don't still have that spare tire 'round my waist. Also, none of them say that it was "since becoming Christians", so they may well have been Christians before that. The second source does not have the lack of conversion therapy in multiple people being said in the voice of the Christian Post, our presumably reliable source. Rather, the Post is quoting a "[v]ocalist and Freedom March worship leader", who would not qualify as a reliable source on these other people.
 * As it makes no accurately-sourced statements, I am removing the new version. Given the number of go-rounds on this, I again suggest that you propose an addition here on the Talk page and find consensus before adding it to the page. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello . Thank you for the comments. The word identification was added and their willingness to share a message of love for LGBTQ people (cited several times in both articles). Thanks for your help. --ServB1 (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"Kristin J. Tremba" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kristin J. Tremba and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 31 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Unbh (talk) 13:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)