Talk:Execution of Kenneth Eugene Smith

Feedback from New Page Review process
I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Often, murderers and the like are covered under articles that describe the murder of the victim (here it would be "Murder of Elizabeth Sennett"), but here it appears the murderer is also notable for being executed with nitrogen.

As such, I think it's good as-is. Cheers.

Acebulf (talk &#124; contribs)  03:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Acebulf: I, too, wonder why we do not have an article about the Murder of the victim, Elizabeth Sennett, but I see that page redirects to this article. The name Kenneth Eugene Smith also redirects to this article, as do the other named participants. While the subject appears to be notable for more than one event, the murder-for-hire and the state's attempts to execute him for this crime. However, as a convicted criminal Wikipedia editors should consider carefully why we have an article about him, and not about his victim. Additionally, disambiguating his name by using the contentious label, "(criminal)", suggests to me a degree of editorial labeling that demonstrates a non-neutral point of view in naming the article. Articles should avoid a title that indicates a point of view, especially when there is recognizable common name that is more precise and shorter. The subject's full name Kenneth Eugene Smith, which is 20 characters long, including 2 spaces. Meanwhile the existing disambiguated title, "Kenneth Smith (criminal)", needs 24 characters, including 2 spaces and 2 parentheses to disambiguate the subject from other people called Kenneth Smith, and it is both inaccurate and a title with a point of view. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)


 * How about Kenneth Smith case as the article name? It is a notable subject, but without the previous botched execution attempt and the new nitrogen hypoxia method of execution, I don't believe the murder would be particularly notable on its own. The publicity is coming from the execution method. Hence why I think Kenneth Smith case might be the best name for the article, as it is more neutral, and covers everything around the subject including the murder of Elizabeth Sennett; which I do not personally believe should be the title because the main source coverage is more about Smith and how he will be executed. Inexpiable (talk) 22:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Inexpiable: No, because that would limit the article to being just about the courtroom arguments. Besides the Manual of style advises that titles for criminal cases should be named for the legal citation in the jurisdiction concerned, while judicial procedures about a person should be named as " of ", which would give "Execution of Kenneth [Eugene] Smith". However, I fail to understand why you might want to write about this article as a notable criminal case when Wikipedia editors do not consider the crime to be notable enough to write an article about in the first place. Kenneth Eugene Smith is notable for at least two things, the murder of Elizabeth Sennett and the manner of his execution. My argument is not about whether Wikipedia has an article about him, or not, - it does - its about whether we label him a "criminal" in the title or use his middle name and avoid the contentious label as a disambiguator. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

"allow Smith"
The page introduction right now reads "... allow Smith to instead elect a secondary novel method of execution, nitrogen hypoxia." This makes it sound like Smith consciously chose to be executed using the new method. Reading the provided source, however, reveals that Smith's lawyers in fact filed suit to prevent the use of nitrogen hypoxia.

I intend to change the line to make it clear the driving force behind the execution is still the state and not Smith himself. Brasswatchman (talk) 04:39, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Name the judge
The judges who overruled the wills of two juries and sentenced death, need to be named. It is fact and public record. Put them in the article. 2600:1009:B013:8CED:C558:C88D:9F4D:7615 (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)


 * WP:BLP applies. Otherwise, Wikipedia will be naming all the judges that heard or declined Smith's appeals all the way up to the Supreme Court. Just for completeness, should we throw in the names of the prosecutors and other lawyers too? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:31, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Lock
This article is being edited to wrongly state Smith is now dead. Nothing online to back this up. Where references are given they do not refer to execution having been carried out. This article should be locked to preserve reliability. Jmcaoat (talk) 00:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)


 * He is now.
 * https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2024/01/alabama-to-execute-kenneth-smith-with-untested-nitrogen-gas-tonight.html 68.160.162.167 (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Botching of nitrogen hypoxia execution
There are many reports of Smith writhing and salivating during his 25-minute execution, some even say that he had suffered. This may be considered a botched execution. Christophervincent01 (talk) 05:55, 26 January 2024 (UTC)


 * How sad. He had to experience 25 minutes of no oxygen. Killing was for his job... nothing personal...
 * The hubby should have got gassed instead. Because he is who ordered and paid... New hordak from 2018 (talk) 09:51, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * i believe theu DID execute the husband by lethal injection. I know they executed Smith's codefendant who committed the murder. Smith has always proclaimed that he was there, but didn't take part in the actual murder. Which would have preclided him from capitol punishment if the courts found it true.
 * It seems they were just dead set on executing this guy. In fairness, though, reading the details of the murder. How she was bludgeoded to death with a fireplace poker. It was a very gruesome murder. So there would have been a lot of outrage.
 * Anyway, I'll have to see what happened to her husband. But, no doubt he at least got 25 to life. At least, if justice isn't broke. Which, it is. VoidHalo (talk) 12:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah okay,the husband killed himself. I remember now. Smith's codefendant was successfuly executed around 10 years ago. And they tried to execute Mithnbyblethalninjectuom, and failed to find a vein before his death warrant expired.
 * I believe there is more specific information about this tucked away in this article somewhere. Unless you just wantes to know the jist. VoidHalo (talk) 12:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTFORUM JM (talk) 00:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Did any of you even bother to read the article? All of that information is in there... Inexpiable (talk) 12:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)


 * It's not very helpful to sarcastically ask if they even read the article. We want to encourage community interaction and participation here. Not give people a hard time because they missed some small detail in a large article that was only made hours ago.
 * That kind of behavior just discourages people. And we only have 110,000 users who have made ANY change to the nearly 7 million English language pages in the last 30 days. So, we need to encourage community participation all we can. Regardless of the numbers, we certainly don't want to alienate anybody.
 * I think we can both agree that having a thriving community would be a good thing for the site, and all of us in general.
 * Sarcastic, insulting remarks aren't appropriate for Wikipedia talk pages.
 * If you must criticize, be constructive. Explain what they're mistaken about and point it out in the wiki.
 * Thanks for understanding. At the end of the day, we all just want what's best for the community. VoidHalo (talk) 13:17, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I now don't believe it possible to 'botch' a nitrogen execution; it's going to be something that is naturally going to fail, distress-wise.

Normally, physiologically-inert* gas asphyxia works rapidly and effectively because the victim doesn't see it coming. A fearful executee is going to go into flight-or-fight increased respiration, even to the point of hyperoxia. Under that condition, there is going to be a concommitant build-up of blood CO2 as the excess blood oxygen is depleted, and difficulty eliminating the CO2 because of the face-mask partial seal. It is CO2 that causes distress-asphyxiation. _____
 * *inert, relatively speaking. nitrogen-narcosis is a partly biochemical phenomenon, hydrogen also has physiological effects, as does even helium.

The only solution is to allow full expiration expulsion out of the mask, but making the seal loose means the prisoner can also get inhalation through the seal. This sets up a vicious scenario where he can get enough air diluted with nitrogen, where he's having, say, 10% oxygen. That's going to make one miserable gasping-scene, and a miserable experience for the prisoner.

The only mitigation I can think of would be to crank up the N2 flow-rate, and add a reservoir-bag to the mask, so that there will always be greater than one bar pressure under the mask. He will be breathing pure nitrogen throughout the procedure and pass out...uh... 'normally'. However, this brings us back to the CO2 problem: he's going to be force-rebreathing much of that excess CO2 I mentioned above. He's going to breathe it out and much of it right back in again. JohndanR (talk) 17:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Wording
"Smith became the first person in the United States and the world to be put to death by nitrogen hypoxia."

Can't we just say world? — THORNFIELD HALL (Talk) 08:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Amerocentric assumptions and language should be avoided when possible. Keeping in mind that En.wikipedia.org is mean to be used by Enlglish speakers worldwide. Not just the west.
 * I kn VoidHalo (talk) 12:46, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking at the media articles on this, it seems that's where the user got the partocular wording. Probably subcosciously. As far as I can see, every article says "Kenneth Smith becomes first man in the US so on and so forth."
 * It seems plausible they may have just picked it up and not realized it.
 * Wh VoidHalo (talk) 12:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikidata correction
Link to Q124359204 instead of Q124296510 if the article is for his execution and not the man. Q64722643 (talk) 14:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This shouldn't have been done, the articles from other languages read the same, it is practically the same article just the titles are different. Should have been put to consensus before this was boldly done. Inexpiable (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I have requested a merge. Inexpiable (talk) 22:44, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Short description: article about death, not person
The short description says "American murderer executed in Alabama in 2024". However, this article isn't about the murderer, it's about his execution.

I'm hesitant to change it without asking on the talk page first, so here I am. Should it be changed to "American execution in Alabama in 2024", or maybe just "Execution in Alabama in 2024"? Thanks! JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333 (correct me if I'm wrong) 18:03, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. Inexpiable (talk) 20:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333 (correct me if I'm wrong) 20:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

edit request: UN
Change: "In light of Smith's execution, the United Nations condemned Alabama's use of nitrogen gas to administer Smith's death penalty and stated that the method itself had amounted to a potential form of torture and degrading punishment."

to "Volker Turk, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights condemned Alabama's use of nitrogen gas to administer Smith's death penalty and stated that the method itself had amounted to a potential form of torture and degrading punishment."

Reason: wikipedia shouldn't give the impression that all the UN members share this opinion, or that this is a resolution from the general assembly. It is better to be specific. 2A02:1810:BC3A:D800:784E:3B6A:86E9:4AB1 (talk) 20:44, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorted, changed to United Nations human rights chief which is what the source says. Inexpiable (talk) 20:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Should central IV line be redirected to Central venous catheter?
Apokrif (talk) 06:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a redirect now from "Execution by nitrogen hypoxia"
There is now a redirect here from "Execution by nitrogen hypoxia"

It seems that this novel method of human execution—apparently first tried in a formal legal sense by the US State of Alabama, where it is apparently, the legally-proscribed secondary method of state execution—may one day have its own article to treat the subject. (The method of execution is notable, and has many sources, totally separate from the murder of Elizabeth Sennett and the years of court cases etc. related to Kenneth Eugene Smith.) I do not propose to create such an article just now; but I would expect we will see it in less than a year, perhaps in under a few months. N2e (talk) 22:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Where did they come up with Smith’s name?
“When Sennett went to leave, someone asked if Sennett knew Kenneth Smith and Sennett turned red.” Where did they come up with Smith’s name? TheAmerikaner (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A call from Crime Stoppers it is sourced in the article, someone gave them the suspect's names anonymously. Inexpiable (talk) 20:55, 28 January 2024 (UTC)