Talk:Execution of Oleksandr Matsievskyi

Rename ?
hello, I changed the name to follow Wikipedia practices and the dominant naming transcription in Western sources. But over all, thanks so much for this article. BBC names him simply as Tymofiy Shadura. Yug (talk)  🐲 14:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

'Worthy of notice'
Absolutely amazing what gets an article. RandomOneRandom (talk) 19:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Notability (events) applied and fulfilled. -Lemonaka‎  13:13, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Is there something you actually wanna change or passive aggressively commenting? Cause the talk section isn't for personal comments that don't amount to any real change The Introvert Next To You (talk) 21:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Notability criteria are met. Yug (talk)  🐲 07:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Keep it factual
This statement "Russians voices are heard saying "Die, bitch" in their Russian language" is unproven. Until it is proven it should read "Voices in Russian are heard saying "Die, bitch"", and it should be noted that Russian is the most common language spoken by everyone in Ukraine. 139.80.239.165 (talk) 21:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Makes no sense to assume that he was killed by soldiers loyal to Ukraine. Please provide reliable sources before making such claims. — Nythar  (💬-❄️) 22:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * They probably are Russian, but many Ukrainians and non-Russians from former Soviet republics speak Russian. All that is needed to say to change their to the. 167.142.48.84 (talk) 22:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Thank you. Nythar  (💬-❄️) 22:55, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Untitled
Cant the article wait until the identify is confirmed for sure. Otherwise it looks like war propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.142.48.84 (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not war propaganda. It was captured on video. As for the article itself, we'll keep updating it as new sources come in. — Nythar  (💬-❄️) 22:59, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A lot of bad stuff has been captured on video, each incident doesnt get its own article. 167.142.48.84 (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Notability criteria is met, for this war crime and for other war crimes which don't get their own articles because no volunteer contributor jumps in. Ex: the Russian man killed by armer. But this time, two volunteers jumped in to create and document that war crime with an article, then an bunch of helping hands joined in. Good work and thank to the team. 👍🏼 Yug (talk)  🐲 07:16, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems the article should have waited. Its the RUSH to write it that made it seem propagandish. 166.181.82.171 (talk) 11:36, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

!! THAT IS NOT TYMOFII SHADURA !!
The name is wrong. His real name was "Oleksandr Matsievskyi"

https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1633488084061806592 https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1633642488610140161

Confirmation 1: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0Ds8KVZ4MsQVapwqf6MH4RVuAmNaeELMU5qAoaqX1HJMUqDscteYt1F6wrEqUaBY1l&id=100000909172681&mibextid=5zvaxg

Confirmation 2: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0RvHoeGWd8UdqrunvXJHqmXsB8DF7UeSwJTijKB8JnjSDiM2eEyz5xiHRULCzoCddl&id=100080439038608&mibextid=5zvaxg


 * Kyiv Independent suggest an non-Shadura alternative. here Yug  (talk)  🐲 01:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That article is two-days old. By then it was still believed Shadura was the victim. Yesterday reports appeared suggesting the victim was actually Oleksandr Matsievskyi. Ukrinform, a Ukrainian state media outlet, confirmed it . Super   Ψ   Dro  15:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Ukrinform in English language seems to be an emerging sources, it's therefor rather weak if alone to contradict The Guardian and other big names. We need better than tweets, facebook posts or Ukrinform in my opinion. Yug (talk)  🐲 06:52, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Before heading to Commons for file move request, please wait until VRT ticket is received. Filemovers wont accept FM requests of files with unclear copyright status. A09 (talk) 14:56, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 9 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Early 2023 execution of a Ukrainian prisoner of war. Super  Ψ   Dro  19:17, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Execution of Tymofii Shadura → Execution of Oleksandr Matsievskyi – '''NOTE: The video came to light three days ago. It would be ideal if this discussion was not extended to the usual seven days. Many readers are getting into this article now that it is recent and as an encyclopedia we should make sure we provide users the best information as quick as possible.'''

It appears it's been confirmed the victim was Oleksandr Matsievskyi and not Tymofii Shadura. We have sources talking about this, including Ukrinform, a Ukrainian state media outlet. The move should be in theory uncontroversial but a RM will raise more awareness, needed as the article is now missing information and needs work to adapt to this finding. Super  Ψ   Dro  15:20, 9 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment: The Guardian article you linked doesn't say that it was confirmed to be Matsievskyi, it says that it's disputed who it is. I also think that it's probably Matsievskyi, but I'd want to see a clearer consensus among sources before moving. In the meantime, I would support a move to some sort of more ambiguous title that doesn't say the name of the victim, seeing how there seems to be uncertainty. HappyWith (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * >The captured Ukrainian who was allegedly shot after saying "Glory to Ukraine!" is named Alexander Matsiyevsky. This was the claim made by the 119th Brigade of Territorial Defense of the Chernihiv region
 * >Earlier another name was called - Timofei Shadura
 * https://twitter.com/SvobodaRadio/status/1633779150577102849
 * >According to colleagues, the prisoner was recognized on the video by the military personnel of the Matsievsky unit, the son and mother. He spoke with her by phone on December 29 and allegedly said that he would never surrender.
 * >The bodies of the dead were handed over to the Ukrainian side. Matsievsky was identified by his relatives and on February 14, 2023, he was buried in Nizhyn, according to the brigade's Facebook page.
 * Earlier, in the armed forces of Ukraine, another name was given to the prisoner. The brigade named after Prince Konstantin Ostrozhsky reported that Timofei Shadura was on the video footage. He was also identified by relatives and colleagues. According to them, the serviceman was considered missing since February 3 after the battles near Bakhmut.
 * https://svoboda.org/a/novye-svedeniya-o-lichnosti-voennogo-ubitogo-posle-slov-slava-ukraine-/32310066.html ZZZeez (talk) 19:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Dromaeosauruses, we should act with agility, as soon as credible sources are provided. @ZZZeez We need to add corrective sources in the article before doing he renaming. So far, the few corrective sources i read were tweets by news agencies. It's too little. We need articles. Yug (talk)  🐲 06:50, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Change to neutral title given that the executed's identity is ambiguous, the title should be changed to a neutral one until it is confidently identified as either one of them. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:29, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, @ZZZeez , @Super Dromaeosaurus, @Hemiauchenia, there will be few weeks before a formal and credible clarification, and we are not here to make probability bets. So I renamed for something more generic and updated the page content as well. If someone look for the next avenue of improvement, the identifications boxes could be harmonized further : the man in the video, Shadura, and Matsievskyi. Good job anyway to this page's editors who were super reactive on this complex case. Yug (talk)  🐲 18:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. HappyWith (talk) 18:55, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I've manually ended the RM. The new title fixes the raised issue. As others have said, information will be clearer in the next few days/weeks. Super   Ψ   Dro  19:15, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Improvements ?
This article initially developed in a chaotic process with contradicting sources, but the article overall is now rather clean in its structure, coverage, accurate depiction of the event and debate. Cosmetic improvements are always welcome. Yug (talk)  🐲 10:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The Name of the Soldier has now been officialy confirmed as "Oleksandr Igorovych Matsievsky" by Ukrainian Security Services:
 * https://ssu.gov.ua/novyny/cbu-ostatochno-pidtverdyla-osobu-heroia-rozstrilianoho-pislia-sliv-slava-ukraini 80.139.8.14 (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * He has also been awarded  Hero of the Ukraine  by Zelenskyy:
 * "I conferred the title of Hero of Ukraine upon Oleksandr Matsiyevsky. A Ukrainian warrior. A man who will be known and remembered forever. For his bravery, for his confidence in Ukraine and for his "Glory to Ukraine!". Glory to the Hero! Glory to the Heroes! Glory to Ukraine!"
 * https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1634982082949840896 80.139.8.14 (talk) 19:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems solidly confirmed, ex Le Monde : https://www.lemonde.fr/international/live/2023/03/12/guerre-en-ukraine-en-direct-kiev-dit-avoir-repousse-pres-d-une-centaine-d-assauts-russes-sur-le-front-de-l-est-en-24-heures_6165135_3210.html
 * More editing needed. Yug (talk)  🐲 20:00, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 March 2023
Transliterate Igorevich to Ihorovych to conform with Ukrainian transliteration rules. FiveStars1234 (talk) 23:11, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: That's not how the WP:COMMONNAME is spelled. M.Bitton (talk) 01:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME has little legitimacy for items which are few days old. The standard transcription also has a point. If journalists are out of date, we don't have to be. --Yug (talk)  🐲 17:02, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Title restoration
The person is not notable, his execution is. We should restore the title to a variant of "Execution of {name}". We should also keep the debate on identification and texts about Shadura since we do have source on this. Yug (talk)  🐲 20:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I would argue. As noted below, he was awarded with Hero of Ukraine, the highest title in the country. [User:Triggerhippie4|Triggerhippie4]] (talk) 22:18, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The Hero status is linked to this 12 second execution as well, an article to his name would encourage to document his whole biography, which so far does not meet the notability guideline. --Yug (talk)  🐲 17:05, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Portret
File:Мацієвський Олександр Ігорович.jpg Zacharpolis (talk) 19:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Hero of Ukraine award
He has been posthumously awarded Hero of Ukraine award by President Zelenskyy, as confirmed in a Tweet Filip Cro (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)


 * @Filip Cro: Any governmental link for backing up your claims? A09 (talk) 16:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's some WP:RS reporting on it:   HappyWith (talk) 16:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Birth place
His birth place was in Kishinev, Moldavian SSR, Soviet Union. -76.69.130.150 (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Any reliable source backing up your claims? A09 (talk) 14:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It was actually Chișinău, occupied territory of Kingdom of Romania following WWII that the FORMER USSR lost control over upon its implosion. Mariusbejan (talk) 22:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Conflict in text
opening line is "de facto captive executed by Russian soldiers during the Battle of Bakhmut in the Russian invasion of Ukraine in early March 2023." In infobox it says 30 december 2022. Which one is it then? LeeMarx (talk) 08:14, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

"Execution of Tymofiy Mykolayovych Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Execution_of_Tymofiy_Mykolayovych_Shadura&redirect=no Execution of Tymofiy Mykolayovych Shadura] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 13:40, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

"Tymofii Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tymofii_Shadura&redirect=no Tymofii Shadura] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 13:40, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

"Tymofiy Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Execution of Tymofiy Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Tymofiy Mykolayovych Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Tymofii Mykolayovych Shadura" listed at Redirects for discussion
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"Early 2023 execution of a Ukrainian prisoner of war" listed at Redirects for discussion
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Monument in Tblisi, Georgia
It could be mentioned that a monument to Oleksandr Matsievskyi has now been erected in Tblisi, Georgia. https://censor.net/en/photo_news/3442951/monument_to_hero_of_ukraine_oleksandr_matsievsky_who_was_shot_by_russians_for_saying_glory_to_ukraine Joreberg (talk) 18:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Monument in Tbilisi
There's more a monument in Tbilisi, Georgia country for the hero (the monument wasn't funded by the government but still, it's placed in more or less public place (clinic). So I think it's worth mentioning it in the article in the "Legacy" category. Link to source (in Russian, (but not Russian propaganda), you can you automatic translation to check and they're is a photo of the monument in the article) https://www.ekhokavkaza.com/a/32589456.html Shitpoet (talk) 18:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2023
In the Legacy section, add a sentence referring that a statue was built in his honour, in Tblisi, Georgia. LlanitoSheep (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Google maps is not the best source to use for this claim. Spintendo  04:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2023
Add that another lifelike statue was unveiled for him in Kyiv this time on 6 November 2023. 0ip (talk) 14:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The provided source was not translated into English. Please provide a translation, per WP:RSUEC. Spintendo  04:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2024
If you're going to put his place of origin as anything other than the current country, then add it was part of the kingdom of Romania prior to USSR creating a fictional place of "Moldova USSR" just like they did with Transnistria. The current region known as Moldova is but a fraction of what it was throughout all written history and is nothing but occupied territory of Romania that the USSR lost control over. I recommend making this change for all USSR occupied territories following WWII that get referenced on wikipedia. Mariusbejan (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * ❌ as somewhat obvious WP:POVPUSH. The place he was born is barely relevant to the article anyway, since it's about his execution. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 05:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)