Talk:Exodus (Uris novel)

Much Editing Needed
Shouldn't there be some kind of plot section? Most other important books have one with a tag. E=MC^2 T@lk 17:50, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

A spoiler is definitely needed... have added one. Kelmaon 08:57, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, there is much wikifying to be done. I'm beginning to feel that this article needs a tag. E=MC^2 T@lk 17:52, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Another thing, there is no reference in the book to Yakov Rabinsky's last name changing to Ben Canaan, only first name to Akiva. I'm going to get to work on this soon. E=MC^2 T@lk 17:55, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

E=MC^2: the book Exodus is my personal favorite in all of literature. If you request it, i would gladly help you fill in the holes of the exodus page, although im not especially experienced at "wiki". Just tell me what you need done!

-The Judaic Jedi

The operation was carried under the auspices of the Mossad Le'Aliya Bet, not Mossad as indicated.

Ambiguity
There is at least one other novel called "Exodus": the one by Julie Bertagna, so the title of this article "Exodus (novel)" is not very good. – b_jonas 16:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

And about Brazil?
Yes, I know that´s the talk page is about the book, but there´s an error in it. Leon Uris wrote good and great things about the State of Israel and its people, and even me, a zionist critic, liked the book. The end was insensible but doesn´t break the magic of the book. The problem created by Uris was the fact that Brazil was the last country to give the vote for the creation of the Jewish State. It´s an absurd that many people like this book but don´t have the curiosity to know the truth. Alias, the name of the man who gave the vote according to the creation of Israel is Oswaldo Aranha. That´s all. Ken Bruce April 29, 2006 São Paulo, Brazil (I won´t put the time because I´m tired to do it!)

This book, despite the criticisms, isn't anti-Arab. It simply shows the ignorance and hatred of the Arab states such as Syria, Iran and Iraq towards Israel after its creation. These sames countries still hate Israel to this day because it is actually a successful state instead of an ignorant, Islamic fundamentalist state where the people starve because there governments are too busy supporting islamic terrorism. Uris is stating reality and I don't think that can be considered something you can criticize.

Unsourced original research criticism
PatGallacher, in February 2005 you introduced a paragraph consisting entirely of unsourced original research, and filled with weasel words (e.g. "many claim", "some claim"). Since then various editors have tried to delete it, and you have been returning it with generally meaningless or disingenuous edit summaries, e.g. "rv deletion of legitimate comment" "rv - seems reasonable comments". You know that this passage violates policy; why did you insert it, and why do you keep reverting it back when it is quite reasonably deleted? Jayjg (talk) 01:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well if you grant that argument you could delete some other significant points in this article. PatGallacher 01:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

We're discussing the section that you inserted, and repeatedly reverted, for almost 2 years. Do you have any other defense for doing so, besides "other people did it too"? Jayjg (talk) 02:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this has anything to do with PatGallacher's efforts, but the Literary significance & criticisms section is awfully abbreviated and its introductory sentence proceeds as follows: "Most complaints about the book are from those who can't tell the difference between a historical novel and a true footnoted history." It seems rather casual-worded and unprofessional, oughtn't somebody amend it? Firebreeze 19:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's unprofessional, but it's actually fairly accurate. What wording do you suggest? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Characters section
I hate to say it, but the characters section could use a lot of cleaning up. For instance, one of the lines in Ari's section is like so.

He may be at least partially based on Yitzhak Rabin. He is probably based partially on Yigal Allon, and his brother possibly on Menachem Begin, but more on Avraham Stern. Actually Ari Ben Canaan is based upon Moshe Dayan.

Someone really needs to clarify this. It sounds like a 4th grader wrote it. I'm in 8th grade, and I could do better in my sleep. I just don't have the time. LonelyPker 22:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Mark Parker? He should probably be listed too. LK 15:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The Ari Ben Canaan Character wasn't raised in a kibbuz, but in a moshav. That is an important difference.

--84.180.191.191 (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. And he is described as havin blue, not brown, eyes. Not that it matters much, but as there is put so much emphasis on the physical appearance of the character, I think that ought to be noted.

--87.147.41.238 (talk) 13:01, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Spoilers
I think that a spoiler warning should be added or some sentences taken out of the article, such as the one that reveals Karen's fate at the end of the book. LK 15:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Please add criticisms and reception. Thank you

Criticisms / reception section
Uh, yeah, this thing is an awful mess and looks to be fallout from last year's edit war. "complaints about the book are from those who can't tell the difference between a historical novel and a true footnoted history?" Not exactly neutral and totally un-encyclopedic. This book has been extensively reviewed and discussed, and I'm sure we can find legitimate, sourced criticisms and responses to criticism. ("Exodus as a Zionist Melodrama" in "Further Reading" looks like a promising start.) Right now, the section practically says, "this is a great book and anyone who criticizes it is ignorant and biased if not outright anti-semitic!!1one!" &lt; el eland / talk  edits &gt; 19:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Some cited properly articulated criticism is needed to balance the article. Donama (talk) 05:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed again. I came to this page just to find some basic information on how this novel is regarded, and I got the "rebuttal" that appears here.  If legitimate arguments for and against the novel exist in published journals, let them be cited here.  For now, since it makes no citations, up goes Template:Unreferencedsection.  Michael Patrick (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Exodusuris.jpg
Image:Exodusuris.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In what whay does the character of Akivah ressemble Avraham stern, who was of the Lehi not the Irgun. He is much more like Zeev Jabotinsky. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.241.150 (talk) 01:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Art Stevens
Is this the animator Art Stevens? If so, he should be linked. Kdammers (talk) 08:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Claim about commissioning
Providing the book where this claim is supposedly made does not equal to providing a source—should we be expected to read the entire book to verify the claim? Moreover, this is a WP:REDFLAG claim that requires more than just a little-known book by a little-known author, although I might reconsider my position if the specific page and the direct quote from the book is provided. —Ynhockey (Talk) 01:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims do indeed require extraordinary evidence, but this claim doesn't strike me as particularly implausible. PatGallacher (talk) 09:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between exceptional and implausible though. WP:REDFLAG refers to unlikely claims, not utterly impossible ones. However, again, this is not my main concern. Instead, the main concern is that no real citation was provided, and this is very difficult to verify. I'll be satisfied if a specific citation and a direct quote from the source was provided. —Ynhockey (Talk) 09:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added a quote and a page number.Steve3742 (talk) 22:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Obfuscation, Negation & Willful Falsification
I find it amazing to read in the present version (Sept. 22, 20101) of the this article that "According to one undocumented, and indeed incorrect source, in the early 1950s Uris was hired by an American public relations firm to go to Israel and "soak up the atmosphere and create a novel about it" when not only the source is documented, but also correct. Furthermore I do note that in Jack Shaheen's Reel Bad Arabs, Olive Branch Press 2001, ISBN 1-56656-388-7, one can also read that "[i]n the 1950s, when Americans were largely apathetic about Israel, the eminent public relations consultant Edward Gottlieb was called on 'to create a more sympathetic attitude' toward the newly established state. And so, he sent Leon Uris to Israel to write a novel, which became the bestseller Exodus... Exodus introduced filmgoers to the Arab-Israel conflict, and peopled it with heroic Israelis and sleazy, brutal Arabs, some of whom link up with ex-Nazis. The movie's only 'good Arab' becomes a dead Arab." It is quite interesting, and no less disturbing, to note that the Shaheen reference has totally disappeared from this article, and that Art Stevens' account is now simply referred to as "undocumented, and indeed incorrect source." Hadan 12:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadan (talk • contribs)
 * A look at the article's history shows that the section in question was first marked POV by an IP editor with no argument provided, and subsequently edited by two others (which the above user is referring to), again without reason, and then finally removed altogether. There's no issue with the original paragraphs themselves and valid references were used, so I've reinstated them. It's reasonable to assume that at least a couple of the aforementioned edits were made with the intention of concealing or suppressing criticism of the book. G E Enn (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Mark Parker
Isn't there anything else about this character other than just being Kitty's friend. I mean he has a crush on Kitty on the beginning of the first novel.(or at least he mentions of having a crush on her) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C45D:50A0:2C97:B5B2:F48D:6875 (talk • contribs)

Extremely negative reviews from e.g. Fisk and Finkelstein
Are such extreme negative commentary, regarding the historical inaccuracies and anti-Palestinian racism, notable enough for a mention in the lead? Oncenawhile (talk) 21:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a novel.To maintain WP:NPOV, you would have to include positive commentary.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  02:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality and ANI discussion
The article has been the subject of a PoV pushing attack since 10 Aug 2014 or earlier. Because of placement of attack citations throughout the article, I was unable to label a section.-- Jim in Georgia  Contribs  Talk  16:29, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A tag was added per guidelines as being a potential "troll magnet." A balanced and neutral book review section is required which does not focus entirely on negative criticism. --Light show (talk) 05:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


 * An ANI discussion has been opened and comments can be added there. --Light show (talk) 03:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
 * As the edits regarding reception and criticism stand today, they appear to be balanced and primed for further/future additions both in favor and in criticism of this novel. I think all of us who spent time editing this article wish you had simply complied with the organic process in place rather than hijacking/sabotaging it for your own purposes. It didn't do anything positive/constructive.Trinacrialucente (talk) 19:49, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The ANI discussion referred to above is archived to Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 56. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 06:03, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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How Much Criticism Is Proper for the Lede?
Part of a substantial copyediting I did involved moving praise and criticism from the lede down to sections on the book's disputed origins and "Criticism". Onceinawhile (talk), on the grounds of "reinstating balance removed from the lede", re-inserted some of that into the lede, copying material that remains in the lower sections. This seems unneccesary and improper; the fact that the article has a subsection titled "Criticism" seems more than adequate indication that there is criticism. This is obviously a hot topic for partisans on either side of the question of racism, which might make the discussion of the literary merits of the work loom larger than they ought within WP. The kind of popular critical praise – as opposed to, for example, mention of literary awards – discussed doesn't seem particularly appropriate for the lede, either. But I bring this here rather than reverting into a potential edit war. Any thoughts? Czrisher (talk) 23:36, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I simply thought it was improper to remove all negativity from the lede. The lede is supposed to summarize the article. I do appreciate your copyedits though. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Edward Gottlieb
In the section on the origins of this work, there is a claim (with the number of citations) claiming that Leon Uris was commissioned by Edward Gottlieb to write a work of propaganda to get Americans to support Israel, and that the results was the novel Exodus. However, a source that I read on this (which had a lengthy list of references) went over this claim in detail and thoroughly debunked it. This is a link to that source: https://scholar.harvard.edu/sites/scholar.harvard.edu/files/martinkramer/files/exodus_conspiracy.pdf

I cannot edit this article since I have not completed the required number of edits, so I'm asking someone else to read this source I attached a link to, and to add a note about this to the relevant section of this article with this source as the reference for that.

Thanks. Mateo Tembo (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)