Talk:Experience and Education (book)

Move
BECAUSE SOMEONE REDIRECTED OUR PAGE TO MICHALS' SANDBOX, MALIKA RECOMMENDS WE CREATE IT IN ONE OF OUR PERSONAL PAGES AND THEN MOVE it to Experience and Education (book).

ITP Core 2 Planning Conversation
May I suggest that the first thing you do is reread the material the class wrote on your subject (Experience and Education) last semester. I would recommend that someone post the links to those blog posts here. It would then be helpful to outline what was written in these posts *very roughly*. two to four sentences per post. There will likely be more than 1 post. Other next steps: identify section headings, if they are not already in the article. And then identify what content should go in which sections. You may also need to ask if there are any sections in the book that were not read in the assigned reading, and/or written about in these blog posts, that is essential for the article.--Theredproject (talk) 19:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is a link to the page that exists for John Dewey. I'm sure we'll use it later.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but I only see this blog post on Dewey's Experience and Education.

There are references to Dewey in some of the posts on How People Learn, so we should probably add this to a further reading section.

Very roughly, I was thinking we could cover the following points in this article. Please add/edit freely - these are suggestions.


 * Dewey's progressive learning theory is based on the idea that we are not just blank slates that we are filling from kinder though college.
 * Instead, Dewey suggested that students organize fact base comprehension through meta-cognition, or by building onto prior experiences, preconceptions, and knowledge.

SoniaG2 (talk) 01:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)SoniaG2


 * I began rereading my class notes. During this lecture, Brier emphasized Dewey's distinction between expert and novice learners.  Here are some of the topics i thought we should cover:

traditional education progressive education as kinship to democracy explain dewey's distinction between experience and an educative experience. educator's role in creating educative experience, --DaLearnedOne (talk) 15:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)DaLearnedOne

I also don't see any posts about Dewey in our Core 1 blog. Going from The World Is Flat page, we can perhaps structure the page to include the following sections. Just a thought.
 * Introductory paragraph
 * Summary
 * Progressive vs. traditional education
 * Expert and novice learners
 * Experience and educative experiences, meta-cognition, etc
 * Educator's role in creating educative experience
 * Reception
 * Editions
 * See also
 * John Dewey
 * How People Learn
 * Experiential learning
 * References
 * External Links

Appknyc (talk) 04:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out how to create a sandbox for this page -- but have been unsuccessful. Out of curiosity, I created the info box for the book in my own sandbox, with the exception of changing out the image. Let me know if you're able to access that. Appknyc (talk) 22:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Amy, I cannot see the info box for the book, can you copy and paste it into this space? I also have an image of the book, I'm trying to figure out, but no luck yet.SoniaG2 (talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)SoniaG2 Tope, I also meant to add that I like the structure you propose. The World is Flat page also has a section for Reviews - maybe we can include this type of information under the Reception header? Looking forward to continuing our conversation.SoniaG2 (talk) 01:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)SoniaG2

Thanks Sonia for moving the TOC into your sandbox and putting in place the structure. Just added the info box, but we'll have to find the book cover image. Should we each take a section and start writing? Appknyc (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Last Week of Planning

Hey Team E&E, I think this note may have gotten lost before, so I'm re-posting it here:
 * A note on images: we must obtain copyright permissions before use an image and/or excerpts from a book/external web link (that is, not another wiki image). I can reach out to the publisher customer service to ask about copyright and ask for permission to use an image of the cover of the book and and excerpts from the book (Simon & Schuster - (212) 698-7003). Can someone else please reach out to the folks of How People Learn? There is a note at the bottom about copyright there that we need to check out before using/publishing their link.

Also, I want to make sure we don't loose Tope's previous notes, so I'm going to add them to the actual article stub. Please edit what I write.

Finally, I want to suggest that we take on 3 different chapters each (since there are 3 of us and 9 chapters, the math was easy) and try to integrate them into the sub-categories that were suggested above (Progressive vs. traditional education, Expert and novice learners, Experience and educative experiences, meta-cognition, etc, Educator's role in creating educative experience). If you all agree, I'd like to be responsible for ch.1, 3, and 4. And, I'm totally open to structuring this in other ways, this was a structure that was suggested above that made sense to me. More later... I'll also add to our article stub a bit. SoniaG2 (talk) 15:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Though there are actually 4 of us. But I can take 2 and 8, and look for external links and finish the info box.Appknyc (talk) 04:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I added a few lines in the summary - but wasn't sure what to do with this verbage, help: Dewey viewed education as kinship to democracy explain dewey's distinction between experience and an educative experience.SoniaG2 (talk) 15:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sonia - (and Tope, correct me if I'm wrong) but I think the verbiage is meant to be 2 separate sentences -- 1) progressive education as kinship to democracy; 2) explain dewey's distinction b/w experience and an educative experience, which I incorporated into the original structure. Appknyc (talk) 04:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Sandbox
At the meeting with Malika I learned how to create a /sandbox SoniaG2 (talk) 23:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)SoniaG2

Scroll down to Week 4 of our United States Education Program/Courses/Interactive Technology and Pedagogy (Michael Mandiberg) for some useful links Malika shared for our assignments.

A note on images: we must obtain copyright permissions before use an image and/or excerpts from a book/external web link (that is, not another wiki image). I can reach out to the publisher customer service to ask about copyright and ask for permission to use an image of the cover of the book and and excerpts from the book (Simon & Schuster - (212) 698-7003). Can someone else please reach out to the folks of How People Learn. There is a note at the bottom about copyright there that we need to check out before using publishing their link. Here is the code for an image of John Dewey that is already on Wiki: This template must accompany the image PD-US-not renewed SoniaG2 (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The template does not need to accompany the image - look at the numerous other places where it is used. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * RHaworth, you seem to be a much more seasoned Wikipedia contributor, so I'm wondering if you can clarify how you came to the conclusion that the image does not need the template? I see you point out that it is used in other locations that do not include this, but how did you decide that the other images were "correct" and the template was not needed? Thanks so much for your guidance.SoniaG2 (talk) 14:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * SoniaG2, dealing with copyright permissions is beyond the scope of what you should be attempting right now. You won't reach a resolution in the timeframe for the assignment. And the resolution is most likely going to be that you don't get permission to convert the image to a CC BY-SA license. Don't worry about this. Move on, and make do with what you have (e.g the image that is already on wikipedia and you can use the book cover under Fair Use, as you can see with the [[File:Free_culture_cover.png Free Culture cover]]. --Theredproject (talk) 18:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Why did you call me @RHaworth? The @, I believe, is something dragged over from Twitter and I keep a special barge pole for not touching Twitter with. The Dewey image is used on 50 pages - do any of them include the licence template? Surely that is evidence enough? There are millions of other images in articles - do any of them have licence templates? But I will turn your question its head - where have you seen instructions to include the template? I fear you may find Theredproject's comment confusing - I certainly found it so. The simple fact is that the Dewey image is public domain, you may use it in the article in exactly the same way as you are using it now on this talk page. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 18:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that SoniaG2 was talking about requesting permission to use some other image that was not already on Wikipedia. My sentence says you can use "the image that is already on wikipedia and you can use the book cover under Fair Use." I am referring here to the B&W image of Dewey that is already on wikipedia, and to the practice of using book covers under Fair Use. I was trying to discourage SoniaG2 from engaging with publishers, as that is always a loosing battle.--Theredproject (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry perhaps I have misunderstood. There is an image of the cover of one edition on this page on the Open Library. I am sure you could upload that image as fair use without any problems. What other images do you need? As to extracts from the text, apart from very short quotations (fair-use), extracts should be avoided anyway because it is an article about the book rather than a summary or précis of it. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 19:09, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to make it clear: whatever images you upload, the licence or fair use rationale "must accompany the image", true. But it always goes on the image description page (see anything in Category:Book covers) not in the article that uses it. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 19:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, you have uploaded File:Experience&EducationCover.jpg. Did you see the message: "to the uploader: please add a detailed fair use rationale for each use &hellip;". I always feel the fair use rationales are a bit of a waste time but some pedants insist. So go do what the message says (or I will tag the image for deletion due to sloppiness). As I said above, Category:Book covers will give you countless examples of how to do it. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 00:32, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Redirect and title
To save you confusing yourselves, I have redirected User:Theredproject/sandbox to here. Feel free to re-arrange matters but I strongly recommend you not to duplicatur subject. At last we get a clear statement of what you are talking about. I reverse my comments about lower case - the title of the article should be Experience and Education (book). &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 13:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Separated
In-line with the (article) namespace, I have moved the actual article draft to User:SoniaG2/sandbox. Please keep this page for discussions. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I have moved the "stamp" of your course to this page which is its proper postion. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 18:32, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi RHaworth, Thank you for your input. As I'm sure you've deciphered from the conversation on this page, this article is a class assignment for a graduate level course. We will proceed and hope to have a more substantive article by the end of this week and will add the stamp for our course as well.SoniaG2 (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Learned comments
Hello Everyone: I'm attaching some notes for the sections. My student made this for his presentation on Dewey and Education. I hope this helps. I'll do chapters 2, 5, and 6: John Dewey “Experience and Education” Reading Notes and Questions

•	John Dewey—“the pre-eminent educational theorist of the 20th century o	Experience and Education is his best concise statement on education •	Dewey insists neither old nor new education is adequate because they don’t include enough emphasis on EXPERIENCE o	Born in 1859 in Vermont o	Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins University. taught at University of Chicago and Columbia o	started the “laboratory school” in Chicago o	died in 1952 o	“Probably the most influential of all American philosophers” •	Experience and Education emphasizes experience, experiment, purposeful learning, freedom, and other well-known concepts of “progressive education”

•	Chapter 1—Traditional vs. Progressive Education o	Traditional •	schools are there to transmit knowledge to the new generation •	Main purpose of ed. is to prepare the young for future responsibilities and success in life •	knowledge •	skills •	conduct/habits •	Teachers are agents to transmit knowledge, skills, and conduct •	Adults/teachers decide standards and everything •	CRITICISMS: •	doesn’t allow student-choice •	drill and kill •	doesn’t emphasize problem-solving o	Progressive: •	student-centered learning [individual freedom/independency of learning] •	based on problem-solving and real-life situations •	CRITICISMS •	how do you manage student learning when it’s so “free” and open? •	doesn’t emphasize moral development

•	Chapter 2—The Need of a Theory of Experience o	Not all experiences are educative; some can be mis-educative. o	The central challenge to experience-based learning is to create fruitful experiences and organize them in an organized progression to guide students’ learning. o	There must be continuity—The “EXPERIENTIAL CONTINUUM”

•	Chapter 3—Critejec of Experience o	Determine if an activity/experience is educational [for both traditional and progressive] o	Why a democratic classroom? •	Dewey says “Democratic social arrangements promote a better quality of human experience.” o	“EVERY EXPERIENCE IS A MOVING FORCE.” o	Dewey argues that experience inherently links the past to the present/future. So Experiential learning incorporates both traditional and progressive ideals. o	Experiential learning promotes growth, but that growth must have direction. [“don’t want a kid to grow into becoming a better burglar” example] o	The role of an educator is “see in what direction an experience is heading” and provide guidance. •	Teachers should also know how to utilize the surroundings, physical and social, that exist to help build the learning experience in the classroom. •	Traditional schools put schools in a biodome of sorts that separated the learning environment from the outside world. o	INTERACTION with the world is essential to understanding the world. o	EVERYTHING MUST HAVE A CONTEXT TO BE EDUCATIONAL •	Dewey—“There is no such thing as educational value in the abstract.” o	“The ideal of using the present simply to get ready for the future contradicts itself. We always live at the time we live and not at some other time, and only be extracting at each present time the full meaning of each present experience are we prepared for doing the same thing in the future. This is the only preparation which in the long run amounts to anything.” •	I just fucking love this rant. Right on.

•	Chapter 4—Social Control o	Rules are necessary [just like in a game]. “There is no game without any rules.” –Dewey •	Children follow rules of games because when everyone follows the same structure, it is beneficial for the entire group [the game can be played in a fair/free way] o	Classrooms should likewise have rules and structure so that everyone can play. •	When disciplining, the teacher should focus on how an individual student infraction must be disciplined because it could damage the group’s functionality •	“Discipline should be done on behalf of the interest of the group, not as an exhibition of personal power.” o	In traditional schools, the teacher was THE figure of power to “keep order.” •	Dewey says there should be shared responsibility and a sense of school community that reinforces that. o	“Education is in essence a social process” where students should learn HOW to interact.

•	Chapter 5—The Nature of Freedom o	Freedom really means freedom of thought and observation, not necessarily freedom of movement [external freedom]. o	Traditional schools limited freedom of thought and observation. •	This prevents teachers from getting to know their students. •	Schools that enforce imminent silence aren’t facilitating social growth o	There should be spaces for students to express themselves and make open observations of the world. o	Needs for external freedom varies from each student and should be addressed individually. •	Chapter 6—The Meaning of Purpose o	Students must feel a sense of purpose with their course work. PURPOSE DRIVES LEARNING o	Purpose is usually caused by impulse or observation [ignored in traditional] o	Observations process includes •	observing something in the world •	connecting it to past information/events •	analyzing and making conclusions o	A sense of purpose instill a desire to learn o	But purpose alone can’t drive learning. Students must have background knowledge and skills in order to move forward in their learning. •	Chapter 8—Experience—The Means and Goal of Education o	Education must be based in experience o	“Education should be a reality and not a name or a slogan.” -Dewey

TRADITIONAL	PROGRESSIVE textbooks teacher/adults decide standards transmit knowledge to new generation knowledge, skills, conduct assumes the future will be like the past	learn from experience student-centered learning problem solving real-life situations exploration --DaLearnedOne (talk) 02:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)


 * @DaLearnedOne, how do you feel about directly adding summary information into the book page under the categories the group agreed to and we can all collaboratively edit there?199.255.152.14 (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * SoniaG2: please always log in before editing and please stop using that ridiculous @ prefix. All of you: there is a wikimotto: be bold - there is far to much talking about this article and not enough actual text being drafted. Just do it! &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 17:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * RHaworth is entirely correct. You all just need to start writing, and everything will flow.--Theredproject (talk) 17:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Division of Labor
Hi -- just wanted to start a new section and clarify who's doing what now so we're on the same page.
 * User:SoniaG2 will work on chapters 1, 3, 4;
 * User:DaLearnedOne will do chapters 2, 5, 6.
 * I can work on the intro, links, and reception, and maybe some editing. I can also finish the info box, though still figuring out the book cover image. I'm confused about what's fair use and what needs permission, if I were to find an image from an outside wiki source.
 * User:KRibble want to take the last 2 chapter? Appknyc (talk) 16:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this User:Appknyc. So I posted what I learned from our workshop 2 with wikipedia school ambassador Malika. But from comments above, it seems that any cover we use of the book pub in 1938 should be fair us. Thanks! SoniaG2 (talk) 00:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry everyone, I ended up summarizing chapters 1, 2, & 3, instead of 4. I hope that doesn't interfere with your plans of what you were going to add too much. And please, edit what I wrote freely! SoniaG2 (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

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