Talk:Exterior sculpture of Guildford Cathedral

Close paraphrase / copy-paste issues
As a heads up: There seem to be some WP:Close paraphrasing and WP:Copypaste issues that need to be resolved or the article will likely be deleted.--CaroleHenson (talk) 09:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Background section was edited and tag removed.--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Your archives - reliable source?
There are several references for "Your archives" at the National Archive - but it's seeming as if there's not the fact-checking, etc. aspects of the definition of "WP:Reliable sources".


 * Maufe, Sir Edward (1883-1974) Knight Architect - Your Archives. Yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk ("Your Archives" - Reliable source?) Retrieved 12 August 2012.
 * Collins, Alan (1928- ), Sculptor - Your Archives. Yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk ("Your Archives" - Reliable source?) Retrieved 12 August 2012.
 * Hill, Vernon (1887- ) Lithographer, Sculptor and Illustrator - Your Archives. Yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk ("Your Archives" - Reliable source?) Retrieved 12 August 2012.
 * "Gill, Eric (1882-1940) Sculptor and Engraver - Your Archives". Yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk. Retrieved 2012-08-12.

Is "Your archives" a reliable source?--CaroleHenson (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Had a good day out with grandchildren and catching up with progress.

I went through the Exterior sculpture at Guildford Cathedral article this morning and dealt with the "citations" requests. Hope it will now pass muster and that you will see fit to move it to the "articles done" list.

Regarding the reliability of "Your Archives" this is a difficult one for me as I wrote all of the articles involved! What I can say is that they were very often based on official Ministry and Government papers and that I never something as factual without checking it out.

I wonder whether you can somehow get a second opinion on this?

Weglinde (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Just one thing I forgot to mention on the "citations". On the two linked to the Guildford interior and exterior maps I could only get it to work by inverting the First [ to ]. Most odd.

Weglinde (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, when I don't know what to do - I google. So I googled on "Your archives" "National Archives" wikipedia source, which got me to this page: NA Your Archives page, which says that Your Archives is like a wikipedia article, using the same technology and process. That makes it an encyclopedic type article or "tertiary" source, and we cannot use those for reliable sources. See [Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources here].


 * I did see something on wikipedia about National Archives documents: British National Archives.


 * I think a key point, though, is that the sources that you used to create the articles on Your archives could probably be used as sources, they would just need to be reviewed to ensure that they meet the definition of reliable source. Does that make sense?


 * Regarding second opinions, the best places to go are:
 * Village pump (like the "British National Archives" example I provided above)
 * The appropriate project, which I think in this case is the Visual arts project.--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This source might be even better - it's a project to promote cooperation between the National Archives and Wikipedia: GLAM/TNA. You could just add the question to their talk page at: Wikipedia talk:GLAM/TNA--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and posted the question here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:40, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No it is not a WP:RS, any more than Wikipedia itself; it evidently operated under similar principles. I'm sure it is pretty correct though, & a good source for further sources. I note they are archiving the service; maybe time to use some material before it gets harder to find.  Can it just be copied here I wonder? Johnbod (talk) 17:51, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Maufe can be referenced here, though I doubt he worked on the sculpture as such. Johnbod (talk) 18:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks John for weighing in on this! I'm a bit confused - I think you're saying that
 * 1) we cannot use it as a source for references
 * 2) content there, though, is probably good - even though we cannot source it
 * 3) this is where I get lost - do you mean copy the articles here - and then find reliable sources to properly reference the material?
 * Thanks again!--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes. That might make sense in some cases, though our article on eg Maufe is already much longer than theirs. Johnbod (talk) 18:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, great! Good point!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:05, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

"Your Archives" was generally set-up, as far as I understand, to allow people to add transcriptions of documents held at the National Archives. As others have said, it is a wiki, so built up and contributed to by self-styled experts. The original documents are generally unpublished primary sources, so shouldn't be used as the main basis of a Wikipedia article (we try and refer as much as possible to reliable published sources). Sionk (talk) 17:55, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone for weighing in. We've already replaced the "Your Archives" sources. Great input!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:25, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

A few items I couldn't find sources for
Here are a few things I couldn't find sources for. Any thoughts ideas about where there might be sources?
 * Commemoration of the association between Canada and Guildford: "In the area of the cathedral exterior near to the representations of the Seven Christian Virtues is a tablet, carved by Vernon Hill which bears the arms and emblem of Canada and commemorates those who died in the two World Wars."
 * Also at the eastern end of the cathedral is a wooden cross which came from HMS “Ganges”. This is made from Burma Teak and was placed there in 1933 to mark the site of the new cathedral. There is also a “Garden of Remembrance” in this area.--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

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