Talk:EyeOS/Archive 1

This article wasn't advertisment.

This is not blatant advertising
eyeOS is free software and provided at no cost, this article was created some years ago, and its maintained by the users of the project, if you don't like some parts of the article, you can help improving it, but I think that its not fair to drastically remove it. Teddybearnow (talk) 14:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Open souce can be a business model. EyeOS offers professional services for their product. Psychcf (talk) 17:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * There are articles on many software applications in Wikipedia. Are they blatant advertising just because they could make money from it too?


 * I don't understand whats the problem with this article, could anyone explain, please? Teddybearnow (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It is an advertisment and clearly biased. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

84.13.214.118 (talk) 22:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don´t see it either. The article could clearly be improved, time and participation are needed, but I do not see it as blatant advertising, if this is advertisement, then we should be thinking of deleting the Windows Vista article, the Mac OS x article, and many more. Instead of deleting articles such as this one we should improve it. I think it has been a really big mistake to have made a speedy deletion. --Francisco Valverde (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just giving an argument against how you can't advertise something that's open source. Even if it isn't advertising, it certainly is biased, and is not encyclopedia-worthy. Psychcf (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Then send it to AfD!!! Let's see what the community thinks. Maybe we could even get User:Psychcf to comment. -- Swerdnaneb 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * See, I feel that it should be sent to AfD because it's like a shell of a page, there's nothing here that you can't find out on their website, other then the criticism. It's not very encyclopedic anyway, I mean it seems like just a fact bin. Psychcf (talk) 01:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could get you to comment? 84.13.214.118 (talk) 20:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think I have that much to add. I think it's really hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with these types of articles. It is sometimes very hard to discern which references are real, worthwhile indicators of notability. If you don't think this article meets the notability standard, you are more than welcome to put it up to the community via AfD. And by you... I mean 84.13.214.118 or 167.206.224.77 -- Swerdnaneb 21:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Those pages have a NPOV and are not advertisments.


 * ok, so to solve the problem with the article, can anyone explain whats the sentence or paragraph that is writted as an adverstiment, or from a non-neutral point of view. Just to fix it. I'm getting tired of discuss this, so, if someone can tell where exactly is the problem, I will fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teddybearnow (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't you just stop removing stuff without debate? 84.13.214.118 (talk) 22:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting to listen where is the problem with this article, you keep adding this messages about neutrality problems or something else, but you DON'T explain WHERE is the problem with the article. Teddybearnow (talk) 23:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed the criticism section because it talks about technical problems in this project that has not been proved in any real study or mentioned in any external reference site, Please, if you re-add this section, add also a reference to a newspaper or magazine that talks about this "problem" Teddybearnow (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I re-added the mention to the eyeOS was one of the 10 finalists in sourceforge awards because it is true, and there is a reference about it, in the website of sourceforge, manager of the awards. Teddybearnow (talk) 23:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not an award if it's not been won. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 01:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, i solved it changing the name of the sections, Thanks. Teddybearnow (talk) 02:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No you didn't, we don't need a "nominations" section. It is considered advertising. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 20:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * About the scalability problems or design problems, references need to talk about eyeOS and this problems, not about this sciences at all, it seems to be a personal opinion, and this is not allowed in wikipedia. I'm searching for a acceptable site with a reference about this problems, but i'm unable to find it, please, could you provide some information about serious investigations on that? thanks. Teddybearnow (talk) 02:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * First off, it's not an opinion, it's fact. First off, it's clearly observable that eyeOS uses flat files, and makes requests to the server every time a button is clicked. These are observable facts and do not require specific references. Now, I do have to prove that database servers are more scalable then flat files, etc. I've provided references for that. Psychcf (talk) 01:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to provide references about all of this, Its a pure lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teddybearnow (talk • contribs) 23:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the code a valid reference? 84.13.214.118 (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, has to be a literary reference from a credible source. Psychcf (talk) 20:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that is easy to understand: if you want to add a criticism section you can't add your point of view saying "this project is not good" or something similar, you have to provide references, articles etc from a credible source, talking about this project and the problems that you talk about. Teddybearnow (talk) 21:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

About competition problems
I'm getting tired of this, psycfh is a user clearly from http://www.psychdesktop.net/ that is a compentition product of eyeOS. Wikipedia is not a place to start competition wars between bussines. I'm a community user of eyeOS, and i'm not part of the project. I only want to create a serious and clean article about this software, and you, with your economical interests and editing the article and adding lies are not helping. Please, can you stop doing this? Its immoral to use wikipedia in this way. Imagine that Pepsi goes to coca-cola article to put lies on it, do you think that this is good for wikipedia?

And why do you brought this unregistered users, that edit the article with your economical interests? are your employers? This is absolutely not ethical. Teddybearnow (talk) 00:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, I'm not writing any lies here. I'm citing valid sources and everything, and yet you continue to remove my changes. I (nor anyone else) am in no part benefiting economically from this. Psychcf (talk) 00:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh and by the way, the account Teddybearnow was made around the time that the article was being voted on for deletion. I'm suspecting somebody's sockpuppeting/meatpuppeting... Psychcf (talk) 01:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Was there a vote for deleting this article? I'm not really sure what you are talking about here... -- Swerdnaneb 01:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there was a notability block on the top of the article, along with a speedy deletion block. I'm wrong about the VfD, sorry for confusing you. Psychcf (talk) 01:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait it was deleted. Teddybearnow registered and made a post on the deleter's talk page asking to restore it, saying it had a criticism section and that it was in fact notable. Once it was restored, he then removed the criticism sections from the page. Psychcf (talk) 01:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is incorrect, this page was speedy deleted, but it was restored (see the deletion log for details of who deleted and who restored the article and why) and in fact, Psychcf is the admin of http://www.psychdesktop.net/ (his nick begins with psych) and he has some posts in his blogs talking about his arguments and problems with the eyeOS developers. I'm a normal user of eyeOS that is upset about the direction of this article. It can be clearly seen that Psychcf is the admin of a competition product, and is here for give bad reputation to the project. Is this allowed in wikipedia? He has no neutral point of view. Teddybearnow (talk) 02:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, I like this project, and I want to improve the article, and psychcf, who is clearly the owner of a competition product trying to give bad reputation to his competition, is trying disturb. Teddybearnow (talk) 02:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, this argument is just getting more and more childish. Can't we just discuss the freaking article allready? Psychcf (talk) 02:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You are clearly a person with a commercial interest in this article, and you cannot deny it. What do you have to say about this, please? So, I think this kind of behavior is not welcome in wikipedia. Teddybearnow (talk) 02:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sure, I'm a part of Psych Desktop. So what, it's a hobby of mine and I'm not interested in making money off of it. And if this is a conflict of interest, you're just as biased toward eyeOS as I am against it. So let's stop throwing mud and discuss the article. Why do you remove my contributions even when it's citing valid sources? If you feel so strongly against them, why don't you add a section with the opposite point of view? Psychcf (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference between you and me, is that you have personal interests and you own a company/organization that is competition of eyeOS, and I am a simple eyeOS users, that likes the project, and want to extend its article. About your question, I don't add my point of view because add points of view to the articles is not allowed in wikipedia. We are here to extend the article with serious and referenced information, not to add our personal opinion. So finally, I think that this discussion have no more sense, now is clear that psychcf is the owner (he admitted it) of a organization or competition project of eyeOS, and have a personal interest against it. Stop editing the article and putting your opinion about scalability or whatever else, if you want to put a criticism, you have to have valid references, and references are important and known pages, books, media or magazines. Teddybearnow (talk) 13:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You say this, and yet you're not saying how my contributions are biased. You're just saying I'm biased and therefore should not contribute to the article. I can admit that some words should be changed, but that's no excuse for you to remove the entire section. We can re-phrase some parts of that and it will be from a neutral point of view. Psychcf (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

editprotected See above. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "See above" doesn't really explain what it is you believe there is a consensus to add/change. It looks to me like there's plenty of discussion yet to be had before changes need to be made to the article. --Onorem♠Dil 20:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * These ips like 84.13.214.118 are meatpuppets from Psychcf and only repeat and repeat what psychcf say. I suspect that there are also part of psychdesktop (competition of eyeOS). Why you can't respect articles in wikipedia? if you don't like this project, don't use it. This is very annoying. About criticism, you are claiming that eyeOS do not have good scalability because it uses ajax, but gmail, gidd, flickr, youtube and thousand web applications also use it, what do you have to say about this? Teddybearnow (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually the IP Address "84.13.214.118" is my IP Address. Do not accuse people without knowing it. You have been reported. Jaymacdonald (talk) 20:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Teddybearnow (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC) Edit declined. You must specify exactly what edit you request. Sandstein (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * so, Jaymacdonald, as we can see here: http://www.ohloh.net/accounts/7161 is also part of the http://www.psychdesktop.net/ project, and eyeOS project is competition of this company/project, so clearly you are a meatpuppet of Psychcf Teddybearnow (talk) 20:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't tell him to do anything, he did it out of his own free will. Psychcf (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, but this article is attacked by two users, and this two users are from a competition project of eyeOS, interesting. This is a clear conflict of interests.
 * Although I strongly disagree with you're POV, I can see why you would feel that I have a conflict of interest. I will leave the article alone, however I do not appreciate the way you handled the situation. Psychcf (talk) 21:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Too many self-published references
I feel that there are too many self-published references on this article. Almost half of the references fall under this category. Many of the references are unnecessary also. Thoughts? Psychcf (talk) 18:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * eyeOS are the owners of ZDnet, Linux.com, softpedia, and readwriteweb? I don't think so. There references are similar to the references that are present in Ubuntu the half of them are self-references, this is normal, please, you have a conflict of interests in this article, stop your try to get this article removed or something else. We are trying to get a quality article, with references, and we are working on it. But you only try to disturb because you own a competition company, i'm very tired of your behavior. Teddybearnow (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, but you are not helping this discussion, really. He is saying that there are too many references to the site itself, eyeOS. Jaymacdonald (talk) 14:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, take a look at Ubuntu article and notice that a half of the references are to canonical sites. So, if there is a problem with this article, there is a problem with many other, self-references are important if you also provide external references. Teddybearnow (talk) 20:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

eyeOS Critism
The current revision is a biased version by User:Teddybearnow. It needs referenced critism re-added, which has references. The user is continuing to remove things from this page, that are totally referenced and citated. Hope this is a good enough arguement. Thanks Jaymacdonald (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, those sections are a bit biased, but I don't think the solution is to delete them. So I feel that we're both to blame. Psychcf (talk) 14:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It is considered communism. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Initially we have a discussion and a edit-war that takes 4 days or more, and then Psychcf stop his behavior and talks with me for solve this discussion, and now, another developer of the competition, Jaymacdonald (see http://www.ohloh.net/accounts/7161, he is part of psych designs, a company/project owned by Psychcf user, and competition of eyeOS with his product psychdesktop http://www.psychdesktop.net/). Please, stop coming to this article with a clear conflict of interests. The section criticism purposed by this two users (who have a clear conflict of interests, because they are involved in another project that is competition of eyeOS) is only a section talking about why they think that is product is bad, so, wikipedia is a encyclopedia, not a place to put people opinions. Teddybearnow (talk) 20:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sigh*, Wikipedia is a place for opinions as long as they are represented in a neutral tone and the opposite viewpoint is represented (if one exists). Also, (If you have to know) Psych Designs was another project of mine when I was much younger, basically it just contained a bunch of my mini-projects. Then I closed it down. Now I'm probably either going to let the domain expire, or make it my personal site. I was feeling really good before that this conflict was over, but I guess I was wrong. Please stop this, I'm not editing the article directly as I promised, and I'm not being rude at all. I'm just providing input for other contribs. Psychcf (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, notice that Jaymacdonald is ,like you, also developer of psychdesktop (not only psych designs) as ohloh (service that makes stats from opensource projects control version) and he have a conflict os interests here. Just to be clear: in Web Desktop OpenSource Community is widely-known that you have problems and discussions with eyeOS staff. You have posted too times in psychcf blog about your discussions with eyeOS team, and this is kown by YouOS community and eyeOS community users. And some days later, you arrive to this article, and start trolling and adding criticism sections that are completly erronous. Please, I'm trying to avoid the discussion, but I think that is difficult to have a competition project and "enemy" of eyeOS, editing the article from a NPOV. Sorry if this annoys you. I'm not involved with eyeOS, and I have NOT mailed eyeOS staff about the issues happening here, because I don't want to create meatpuppets, I want to solve this in the more posible friendly way. Teddybearnow (talk) 05:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is true, I won't deny it (except for the erroneous part). However I have clearly stated that I would not edit the article, and you're continuing to act aggressive toward me. Is it a crime to suggest things to put in the article? I mean, I think the flat files vs db server section is a reasonable suggestion. Psychcf (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I know I promised that I wouldn't edit, but the criticism section is back, so I'm just going to make the changes to criticism to make it neutral. Psychcf (talk) 17:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

About unserious criticism
Please, you really think that put a post on a blog of a project competition of eyeOS is a valid Criticism to be present in a encyclopedia? So, why you don't directly put: "i don't like eyeOS" and it will be more easy? Please, don't add this type of criticism, only valid and referenced criticism. And not, a blog from psychdesktop talking about the bad behavior of eyeOS staff is not a valid reference. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet you would know what valid references are on Wikipedia, since all your account has been used for is editing this article. Jaymacdonald (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'm sorry for even adding that statement to begin with. Psychcf (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

About useless discussions
We are discussing here, trying to find a solution to this dispute, and the FIRST day that the article becomes unprotected, a IP modifies the article adding exactly the text that started the discussion. Is this a correct behavior in wikipedia? I have removed the text until this will be talked. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The topic has already been discussed. Please state the problems you have with it, before removal. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 17:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The topic has already been discussed, and we have noticed that psychcf and Jaymacdonald have a conflict of interests here, so this paragraph have no sense, and the reference points to a psychcf (competition website of eyeOS) blog. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And? It points to a competition website of eyeOS? Wrong, it points to a blog. Please provide references that this is not allowed on Wikipedia. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 17:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A blog about Psychdesktop and maintained by Psychcf, who is the owner of the competition website www.psychdesktop,net, who claims to have received personal attacks from eyeOS staff, and later of this, comes to the wikipedia article to put it in the article. You think that a encyclopedia is the best place to put "eyeOS boys are bad guys with psychcf?" I can't understand your behavior. I'm getting tired of this unregistered users, and developers of competition projects like psychdesktop that cames here to give bad reputation to this project, I will not stop in my work to keep this article free of personal or economical interests, If any eyeOS developer comes here, and edit the article in HIS personal benefit, saying that eyeOS is the best, or whatever, I would undo his changes, like I do with developers that are part of competition projects, that have a extremely clear conflict of interests and Non-neutral point of view. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you will not stop your work, intervention will have to be considered externally. 84.13.214.118 (talk) 17:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have nothing more to say, if in wikipedia its allowed to edit articles where you have admited that are about a product competition of your work, and where you have a clear personal interest into give bad reputation (or good, its the same problem) without a neutral point of view at all etc, then, I don't have nothing to say. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Blogs are generally not considered reliable sources. --Onorem♠Dil 17:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed the criticism. It's unacceptable that it is supported by an article in the blog of one of the involved, who has been editing the article and owns a a website which competes with eyeOS. Shameful. --Unf (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've neutralized the criticism section and moved into structure. If anyone feels it needs citations, please add "citation needed" tags. Psychcf (talk) 17:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
Let's stop this edit war and agree a definitive redaction in this talk page. Once agreed we shall add it to the article. Ok? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unf (talk • contribs) 17:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

About scalability problems
eyeOS do not use xml files for shared configurations since there are no shared configuration between users. In fact, each xml is or only readable (and is read in a non-blocking way) or only readable and writable by his owner, so there are not problem with high loads.

The proof, is that the eyeOS public server is working since 2006, with more than 130.000 users, and it have no problems, because the flat files are NOT used in critical points or in shared configurations. So I think that somebody can take a look at the source code, and notice this. This section should be modified.

In addition to this, eyeOS use vfs (like linux), so there are a abstration layer between you and the files, and not everybody uses flat files, you can use mysql files or whatever you want, with the appropriate module.

Some people says that eyeOS store his info in flat files, but this is the common way, not the only way. Teddybearnow (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * By providing this information, you are proving you have a COV. You should not be editing this article. (Nothing to stop you, it's just not recommended.). Just a response to the comment on my talk. Jaymacdonald (talk) 18:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not involved in any way with eyeOS project, and try to find a relaiton between me, and any eyeOS developer, and you will not be able, because it doesn't exists. Sorry.

I'm only a expert in this area, I have read also the psychdesktop code, and the Xcerion code, and his abstraction layers, So, i'm also involved with this projects? Teddybearnow (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody said that. But you have a COI and you are removing content clearly referenced.
 * The article of Linux Ubuntu etc, is full of experts about the area, are there also involved with this projects? I don't think so. At least not all. Teddybearnow (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no COI, since my only interest on this article is to have a good and quality article, with references. I MODIFIED (not removed) some content, providing a technical explain in this talk page, that you can confirm by taking a look at the code of the discussed software. Teddybearnow (talk) 18:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Add 'citation needed' tags. Personal experience is not a source/reference. Jaymacdonald (talk) 18:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, are you kidding? We must assume that Psychcf's text, who was been proved is a competitor of eyeOS, is reliable and Teddybearnow not? And you are also a Psychcf's project developer, so please stop this edit war. Your attitude is shameful (have i said that before?). Let's agree a text and add it to the article. --Unf (talk) 18:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My attitude is shameful? If you have a problem, add a citation needed tag, and citations will be added. Jaymacdonald (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I won't do that. Better than that, if you don't give any citation, I'll be equitable and simply delete yours and Teddybearnow's text. What about that? --Unf (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel really bad about any neutrality issues I created before, please forgive me (trust me, I've beaten myself up enough about it already). I'm glad that we're finally collaborating on the talk page though, I think we should continue to do that. Psychcf (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

About bottleneck problems
Okay, I don't agree with this paragraph of the article: bottleneck problems.

First of all, eyeos.info (the free service that I, and the other users use) have more than 130.000 accounts, a lot of people share his files on it, and add his messages etc, and nothing crashes.

Well, and now, talking technically, eyeOS DO NOT have any flat file configuration, writable by everybody in his system, so, this paragraph its false, and should be corrected.

Instead of reverting my changes, please, explain me here WHY do you think that i'm wrong, because i'm absolutely sure of this fact, and everybody can be sure, checking the eyeOS source code, because is free and open source software.

Please, do not feel offended by this edit, I'm only trying to find the more accurate version of this article, and If needed, I can post here snippets from the eyeOS public source code, to demonstrate my affirmation.

Please, if you feel that i'm in a error, explain your reasons. Teddybearnow (talk) 18:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've explained, unless you can verify these, as in CITATIONS OR REFERENCES they are no good. I'm detaching myself from this arguement. Have a fun. Jaymacdonald (talk) 19:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. The only issue with that I can see is the internal message application, but I'm not going to put that in the article because I don't know. The way the article states that is unclear though, I'm going to reword it. I'm glad we're finally being constructive here :D Psychcf (talk) 19:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm very happy to see that we can work trying to have a neutral point of view, My apologies to Psychcf if he has feel offended in this discussion. I believe that now, we all are trying to stop this conflict in the more nicely way. Teddybearnow (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Changing the focus of the article
I feel that this article describes what a web desktop is too much, and should focus on what sets eyeOS apart from other web desktops. I'm going to make some changes, let me know if they're ok. Psychcf (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. I also moved some stuff around, reworded things, and removed un-necessary parts (such as the sourceforge download location). Psychcf (talk) 00:33, 25 April 2008 (UTC)