Talk:Ezhava/Archive 1

Discussion deleted
I have deleted all the discussion that I have initiated in this page. I am not so sure of their usefulness.

--Manjunatha (13 Sept 2005)

Manjunatha, you deleted it because your disguised vandalism in this page was exposed! It is clear what irked you, and why you are trying to poke holes in the article under the pretext of a discussion! On the 25th of August when I pointed you to relevant reading material on the subject in discussion, I was giving you leads to good books and research material referenced in the web and further in the long bibliography in those books. You chose to read only what is sparsely available in those websites and came back the very same day (25th of August) and flung personal accusations at me. When I fed you a dose of your own medicine, you have gone haywire, fuming and crying foul (personal tirade! personal tirade!!) and throwing up all over. Well you now know what it means to focus personally – good.

In you vain attempts to vandalize and malign, you were attempting to paint a communal slant to the statements about “selective conversion” – the term you wouldn’t have heard anyway, as you could not have done more than one day’s reading! You might not be aware that it was more than one community that were socially exploited in history by those that controlled the citadels of power – the temples. Speaking of that one community you referred to (again you are attempting to put unsaid words in my mouth) it is one that has contributed a good part of my larger family for three generations now. My regard for the women of that community go beyond words, so does my heart for their ancestors, and my respect for the social reformers who saved them from the appalling social exploitation that at least some of them endured in the hands of Brahmins in history. However, neither of these communities of today though should be blamed or disrespected for what transpired over time in the social evolution of man. History is there if for us learn from the rights and wrongs of the past. Blaming or slander of the current generations on that account would be as stupid as expecting Koizumi to apologize for past Japanese atrocities or your wife being ashamed of being the chimpanzee’s descendant.

Of course you will come back and post more blabber on this page. Please do so, because you should be leaving your muddy footprints on your CV in Wikipedia – where you might be looking to make career for yourself as a flamer! Good luck. My world is elsewhere in brick and mortar, with this being only an occasional visit and pastime.

And Manjunathan your short-sighted prophecy, that this article on Ezhavas is doomed, might actually become true for yourself. For if you fume at this rate man, this article, as it is, will soon outlive you!

Aaroamal, 13 Sept 2005

Information Lack
This article lacks a lot of contemporary information such as the traditions and caste related line of work etc. Facts such as the worship of Sree Narayana Guru as a reincarnation by some Ezhavas are omitted.

NEW COMMENTS
I don't know if Buddhism was a mass religion in Kerala, but one thing is sure. Hinduism was not a mass religion then as it is now. Even now Kerala hindus are different from the hindus of rest of india. For example: 1. Kerala hindus eat beef while rest of the hindus consider it a sin. 2. Kerala hindus don't celebrate popular hindu festivals like diwali, dusshera, vinayaka chathuthi etc. They just celebrate Onam and vishu which are no way related to hinduism. Also kerala has this unique god Aiyyappan.

I have two very serious questions about kerala: 1. Was kerala so important that Vishnu had to come as Vamana just to punish a king. Usually the incarnations affect a larger geographic region, like Rama, Krishna, Parasurama. But Vamana seems to have an effect only on kerala.

2. The legend of Aiyappan is known only among kerala hindus. They believe that he is the son of Vishnu and Siva, but rest of India doesn't know about it.

I feel that Maha bali and Aiyappan were either Buddhists or pagans who were later asociated with Hinduism by brahmins.

--MaximusAltimus ( 4 Nov 2005 ) altimus might be maximum but not the knowledge.

The world knows Hinduism as defined by Brahmins since they were the only educated and elite when British were here. So, when one observes that there are many independent religious groups in India, they would immediately come to conclusion that it's not part of Hinduism. Perhaps, there should be distinction between Brahmanical Hinduism or caste system and local Hinduism. However, it's even difficult say that Brahmins upgraded only Ayyappan or Maha bali to higher position. All the major hindu goddesses, phallus worship, nature worship like trees and snakes also have parallels in local Indian worship. We are not even sure of origins of Brahma, Vishnu and his avatars Rama and Krishna. It should be noted that original Indo-Aryan gods like Indra, Agni, Vayu etc.. are only minor gods of present day Hindus be it Brahmins or others. So, I'm not sure if I have to connect Brahmins to totally alien origins when except for Vedic rituals they are too similar to other castes. Many communities not only in Kerala but thro'out India have their own temples and priests.

I agree Beef is taboo for majority of Hindus. However, meat is taboo for Brahmins but there are many exceptions to it and here I'm talking about traditionally non-vegetarian brahmins like Kashmiri Pundits, Saraswat Brahmins of Karnataka.

Manjunatha (7 Nov 2005)

QUESTION TO user Manjunatha
After closely following your - sorry to state this –arguments’ sake- discussion on this subject, -which I gather is not your area of expertise-, you keep arguing that..- budhism & jainism were   religions of the ELITEs in old Keralam – here I am quoting you. As a reader I could only assume this could be your personal opinion based on intuition. – or tell me if it is based on research by any of the known historians? Can you kindly provide some published books/ reference to support your point? Out of some -say curiosity- I am bit interested in hearing how you can substantiate your repeated assertion. I strongly think that the older version the main article was based on references to good research, some of which I have also read. The current author –last anonymous one who ever it is- has only just picked up from and here and there and created an article with no focus for historic value. Also drifiting to Srinaryana Guru which is matter for a different topic.

N.Krishnan, 5 Nov

Hmmmm
Just a comment. Can't we discuss this without getting too personal about it. Tintin 05:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Nothing personal here ..just seeking that commenter's sources - to prove his repeated theory/or support his argument - i.e..referring back from the deleted parts also. Only expecting the precise references which we readers dd not see - from that commenter.

N.Krishnan, 5 Nov


 * No further questions your Honour - he is truly innocent - he has not read anything directly relevant to buddhism in ancient Kerala. Thanks.

N.Krishnan, 8 Nov

Second deletion
Now I'm seeing NPOV tag attached to the article. The only talk I can see here are all started by me. However, my intention was to initiate an objective analysis beyond the feelings of greatness and victimhood(I sound so pompous, but I can't help it). But it looks like there is a game of one-up-manship between caste articles and I don't want to be part of it. So if anybody has any contention about this article please start their arguments here. I'm removing NPOV tag. Thanks.

Manjunatha (28 Jan 2006)

Origins
I've heard somewhere that the ezhavas are the descendants of seven pallaquin bearers from Ceylon. I can't verify it as most of these stories are by word of mouth in Kerala. --Rabidphage 23:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * In the article, Salagama, it's given that pallaquin bearers are one of the sub-castes of Salagama. They identify themselves with Saliya caste of Kerala. However, I'm not sure if it's politically motivated. As they could be of entirely Tamil origins too. According to their myth they were migrants from Malabar. Unless, these pallaquin bearers were native Sinhalese who merged their identities with Salagamas; it's a probability that few Ezhavas have in fact malayali-sinhalese-malayali origins. Just a random thought.

Manjunatha (5 Feb 2006)


 * Manjunatha, the Sri Lankan Durave caste also is recorded as pallaquin beares from Madurai or Malabar. They are generally belived to have descended from Ezhavas or Nadar who were attested as Ezhavas in neibhoiuring Tamil Nadu by the Cholas User:RaveenS

It says in the article that Ezhavas were "aristocratic and wealthy" in pre-brahmin times, however, the article makes no mention of which caste the Ezhavas belonged to after the arrival of Brahmins. Furthermore, Buddhism is simply a relatively recent offshoot of the timeless religion of Hinduism and to declare that Buddhism came to Kerala before Hinduism would be akin to saying that as time moves on one becomes younger in age! The article also makes no attempt at tracing the genetics or race of the Ezhavas, rather concentrating on Sri Sathyanarayana Guru. I think that another article should be dedicated to him and that the Ezhava article should be dedicated to first explaning the most important facts. 58.104.124.155 04:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above suggestion. We need more discussions on the origins. Rabidphage

One interesting fact i like to add here. There is a kannada community, Idigas who are also called Deevaru. Both may corresponding to Ezhava and thiyaa in kerala and might have originated from the word ezham or dweepam both means island. Ezham has many meaning other than island like toddy, 'indepentant state'. All these meaning are confusing daya anjali

Ezhava and Tiyan
In the article it is mentioned that two were probably different communities before. I think that need not be the case. It looks like the identity and myths of few influential/dominant families becomes salient feature of the whole caste. In fact, Tiyars in Tulu regions are known as Malayali Billavas where Billava and Ezhava are cognates.

Manjunatha (27 Apr 2006)

One interesting fact i like to add here. There is a kannada community, Idigas who are also called Deevaru. Both may corresponding to Ezhava and thiyaa in kerala and might have originated from the word ezham or dweepam both means island. Ezham has many meaning other than island like toddy, 'indepentant state'. All these meaning are confusing daya anjali


 * Instead of claiming that Ezhavas got their name from Sri Lanka, you have to ascertain if Sri Lanka got its name from Ezhavas. I mean Ezhava of India with its variations like Idiga, Billava have a greater antiquity and the diversity for this term. If you consider the total population of Sinahlese(1.5crore) and the total popualtion of Ezhava/Idiga/Billava(Biruva) in all over South India(which I presume easily exceeds 1.5 crores) would require a mammoth exodus from Sri Lanka to South India. However, all the known migrations are always from North to South. I mean East India to Sri Lanka or South India to Sri Lanka.


 * Also, claims like a landmass was called Eelam because of a word which meant "toddy" is difficult to believe. Either the root word should denote "Palm" trees so that land could be called "land of Palm trees" or the toddy tappers were the first inhabitants of the island so that it was in fact "land of Ezhavas". Or Eelam and Ezhava are certainly not cognates. Of course, these are my personal opinions.

Manjunatha (4 Sept 2006)

Indigenous origins
Looks like some people are not willing to accept that most probably Ezhavas did not come from anywhere but were indigenous to the region at least through the historic period. Some etymologies are not prestigious but so be it. Tiyan is not derived from Sanskrit Dvipa, to derived it is called folk etymology. But we need to mention all points of view in an encyclopedic article :-)) RaveenS 22:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

One interesting fact i like add here. There is kannada community Idigas who are also called Deevaru. Both may corresponding to Ezhava and thiyaa in kerala might have originated from ezham or dweepam both means island. Ezham has many meaning other than island like toddy, 'indepentant state' daya anjali

Questionable edits
Please see [this edit]. From the editor's contributions, it looks like it was done in good faith. The second paragraph is extremely dubious. Can I do a revert ? Tintin (talk) 08:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The first pragraph is fine but the second looks dubious and funny (wrt the princess marrying the karnavar's son and later having a heartbreak and stuff) :). A revert would be helpful. Jisha C J
 * Removed it. We should not be this tolerant about the uncited and arbitrary stuff in articles about Kerala. Tintin (talk) 09:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Tintin - Do you believe Ayyappan was born to Lord Siva and MahaVishnu??.. Come to reality.


 * I do not. It is a legend and should be mentioned as one. It is alright to give a historical perspective but when you do that (especially if is not well known, as in this case), please make sure that you have got it from an authentic reference book, and include its name in the article. Tintin (talk) 05:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

SOURCES, PLEASE
Chettanmare, sorry about shouting. When you quote figures, can you please provide some source. It is extremely tiresome when one uncited number is replaced by another, and the people watching the page get no clue as to whether the new one or old was correct. Any decent source would do - a newspaper report, an India Today article, a mention in Manorama yearbook, or something like that. Tintin (talk) 05:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Romanticised
I have noticed with Ezhava article that the content has been largely romanticised. yes ezhavas did kalari, yes they were businessmen and vaidyar..these qualifications are well documented, and yes a proportion of the community were of near equal status to nairs, however they were also toddy tappers and menial labourers in the past. this latter aspect of ezhavas is not documented. while i am glad that the caste system is done away with and i condemn the often inhumane treatment of ezhavas in the past, wikipedia is also an encyclopedia, and as such, information must be brought to the surface regardless. remember there were ezhavas who did brahmin duties (ayurveda), kshatriya duties (kalari), vaishya duties (businessmen) and shudra duties (labour) Kshatriya knight 06:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Mr Knight - You wouldn't have said these if you had seen "Nair"'s site. (comment posted by 68.36.46.44)

The Nayar article is not perfect either, and we can deal with its problems in ITS discussion board. You still have not dealt with the point i have made about the Ezhava article. (*Note: The Nair article is slanted against them, as people are trying to class them as shudras; wheras in this article, the Ezhavas are painted as Kshatriyas) What i want to see is all sides of ezhavas presented, their brahminical, kshatriyan, vaishyan and shudroid duties. Kshatriya knight 22:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits by 192.147.57.6
You seem to be removing certain parts of the text (without any explanation) and adding text that is unfit for an encyclopaedic entry, either by virtue of being POV, or by being informal/essay-like. At least explain your changes. At any rate, the article is in serious need of attention and lacks references. If I have more time, I will try to make it more encyclopaedic. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  18:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mr. Vivin - You don't need to add nair information and your beliefs here. If you guys keep doing it I will have to edit Nair page revealing the actual picture of Nairs. Yes I removed many statements which were only glorifying Nairs. Whether it's true or not it's not relevant in Ezhava article . And regarding Ayyappan's training under the Cheerappanchira Kalari is undisputed. You cannot remove that. Do you have any proof for the statements that you write? By the way, my name is Rajesh. I have categorized Ezhavas under all the four varnas as we guys believe in defining Social Status (Varna) by profession as mentioned in ManuSmruthi and NOT by Birth. - Rajesh.


 * Perhaps you don't know what Wikipedia is about. Your threat about "editing" the Nair article to show the "true picture" of Nairs, seems to show that you aren't hear to write encyclopedic entries, but rather, are here to spread propaganda. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. There is no need to write "essay-like" diatribes glorifying Ezhavas . It is an established fact that Nairs are a martial class and were a ruling class. It is also established that after the arrival of Namboothiris, they were reclassified (by the Namboothiris) as untouchables. Secondly, the template exists to categorize articles to HELP wikipedia. It is not about beliefs, or what YOU believe. Please be more realistic and mature. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  23:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mr. Vivin - In fact you are spreading propaganda that Nairs are Kshatriyas which we don't accept. We do agree that there were NaduVazhis and soldiers from Nair community. But they were never given the power to rule. Also this is only a minority from your community. Majority of them were into other professions like farmers, servants etc.. If you are a true Wikipedian why don't you write about the Devadasis from your Community? Why don't you write about the casual relationship your ladies had with Nambuthiries? These are the facts. It's widely accepted that Nairs were Sudra and there is no mention about this in your article on Nairs. Instead you are assuming Kshatriyahood (your beliefs). You are comparing with Samurais of Japan, Rajputs etc etc which I would call fatasies. And you don't need to worry about my maturity. Also if you go through Manusmriti it says Varna is defined by profession and not by Birth.


 * Nowhere have I said that Nairs are Kshatriyas. In fact, I spent a lot of time on the Nair article trying to show both Shudra and Kshatriya aspects of the Nairs, without trying to assign them to either class. The fact is one cannot classify them easily according to the varna system. Nairs were given the power to rule. There were many Nair feudal lords and tharavads. Ever heard of the Ambat family, or perhaps of the Paliath Achan? I don't know much about the Devadasis, so I cannot write much about them. I believe I have written about Sambandham. If you took the time to go through the Nair article, you would find it. That entire section contains information I gathered from Chandumenon's Indulekha, where he describes the Sambandham system - not as a "casual one" (in fact, he attacked Namboothiri Sambandham relationships), but as one where the women had power over the relationship. Secondly, the comparison with Samurai is valid. Both are martial classes, employed by a ruling class for the sole purpose of warfare. I have been trying my best to find a textual reference to this - I know one exists in a National Geographic issue from the mid 1990's (1995 I think). But other than that, the comparison is valid. Try and prove otherwise. I am not sure what relationship they have with the Rajputs - I don't think I ever added that to the article. I have brought this article to the attention of a few more people. Perhaps they can help mitigate your overt attempts at glorification. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  18:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Vivin : Pls donot delete info which you are not sure of.. I had edited the "Surname" section saying the said surnames were common "till 20th C"... Why did you change it saying "late 19th C and early 20th C" ?.. If you look at the Alumoottil family tree you can notice Panicker and Channar title in 18th C. The Panicker title used to be given to Ezhava elites by the Kings.. User:Pallathottath


 * I never added that part. My edits are based off a previous version of yours, minus all the POV. I will revert it and remove the "late 19th Century part". --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  21:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To add, I reverted it to a version by Pallathottath, which added some useful information. All you seem to be doing is reverting it to your own version, which is extremely unencyclopedic. I am sorry, but the language is absolutely atrocious and has no place in an encyclopedic article. This is not an opinion piece. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  21:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Your posts clearly reflects the attitude you have. Better change it. You talk as if Wikipedia is your ancestral property. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pallathottath (talk • contribs) 22:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Hiya...speakin of Devdasis...they were spcially imported from Tamil Nadu and had nothing to do with Nairs...excepting the Devdasis of Padmanabhapuram Temple who were drawn from the Tamil Padam sub caste of the Nairs, also originally from Tamil Nadu...so dont speak utter crappe because u can...secondly Sambandham was had not only the Nairs, but also by the Kshatriyas (Royalty. Gowri Parvati Bayi of Travancore had three husbands one after the other...ofcourse she remarried after the earlier died only)...and the Moosad Brahmins, Nambiar Brahmins, Chakyar Brahmins etc...therefore get out of the delusion tht Sambandham was loose concubinage...this just reflects the anti Nair attitude of so many Ezhavas as we see in the Malayalm news at times...now probably ill be blamed for being anti ezhava, but honestly do i even care? Manu


 * Manu - Whatever you write here, the truth remains. If you see the article on Nambuthiri, it says Sambandham was a casual relationship. I am not against all Nairs but for a section who thinks they are great forgetting the past. To be honest I didn't want to write all these. But you guys are forcing me. And I am not interested in what you care about. pallathottath


 * Ezhavas did not figure in any of the four Varnas. One has to accept it. They had a tough time, as a group, because of the caste system. They are alright these days because the times have changed. SNDP Yogam bargained on behalf of the Ezhavas.The Communist Party that came to power in Kerala, was a great relief to the Ezhavas. Well the worst is over now. Let us not try to relive it. (There are many other things to do!)It's futile trying to re-write the past..

Encyclopaedia articles etc. must be reduced to the bare minimum facts, and should n't give rise to squabbles.After all we are n't going to be here forever! What's happened has happened. There's a need to be free of such "collective memory", lest its influence drains away one's energy.JosephKundukulam 11:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Joseph : As the self acclaimed True Wikipedians like Vivin states that we need proofs for any comments we make, we need to provide examples. That's the reason it's long. Pls don't remove the examples that are given about the Ayurvedic and martial tradition. Yes it's true that we are wasting time and energy. What do we achieve. And regarding past, everyone had a tough time. It's not only with Ezhavas. The concept of Varna is not a global rule. It's was being followed by crazy lots. So we are not worried of not getting a place in the caste system. In fact we are proud. SNDP helped a lot because it was able to unite Ezhavas which was lacking the past. But no cheers to communist party. They just used us.Pallathottath

If the Ezhavas claim martial traditions, we too can! We preceded almost anyone else as inhabitants of Kerala. DNA research has established as beyond doubt that the dark skinned South Indian proto-Australoids are as old as Human Race itself. The earliest genetic markers through mutations in the Y_Chromosome identify South India as the first major stop of the homosapiens as they migrated outwards from the Southern Tip of Africa. That was about 50,000 years ago. In other words the race has remained unadulterated, more or less.

This tall talk about Aryanisation and the establishment of rigid caste hierarchies by the Aryans, is totally verbose; without substance. The blonde, blue eyed race emerged many tens of millennia later, with the “melamine” in their system reduced literarlly to zero percentage, - a dire consequence of having to survive the ice capped northern latitudes in Central Asia. But then the appeal of that white skin, the come-hither look in those eyes the colour of the ocean’s depths! The rules of aesthetics were re-written, possibly for the last time.

It was through much more than mere physical strength and equestrian skills that the pastoral Aryans swept aside any resistance from the highly developed civilization of the Indus valley and invaded the sub-continent. The whole process must have been much less warlike, from the look of it!

I would also go by the theory, discussed in these web pages that the caste system existed for more than 8000 years ahead of the arrival of the Aryans. As the DNA tests indicate, the Aryans- and warlike immigrants, in general- attached themselves to the upper strata of the existing social order, i.e through direct interactions with the ruling elite, whoever that might have been.(A scenario such as this was envisaged by the late D D Kosambi,mathematical genius, archaeologist and marxist historian who resorted to the tools of anthroplogy as early as the sixties)

Further, I find it difficult to make sense of this concept – as it’s been expressed here-, “that those who resisted the incursion of Nambuthiri Brahmins were systematically reduced to outcastes etc”. It could also have been that the migrant Nambuthiris did not want to mix up with everyone they came across, granted they could establish a pedestal for themselves to command from, or make choices, at a very early stage. Why the hell should one be rueful about it now? What if the woman were left alone in the majority of cases?- it was always the women, mind you, for, going by the Nambuthiris’ record in the region, it looks hardly possible that they let their own women be enjoyed by others at any stage. (But then, how come there are dark skinned Nambuthiris????)

If the nambuthiris did not desire intercourse with Ezhava women, so be it!

It’s true that the Sambandam system between the matrifocal Nairs and the patriarchal Nambuthiris developed sociological and political ramifications very soon. Though I am not very sure about it, I would go by the contention that the Royal Families that emerged subsequently, with claims of suzerainty over the land and people of what’s called Kerala now, were more or less the offshoots of the ruling Nair clans who fought tooth and nail among themselves and with the neighbouring Chola, Pandya kingdoms. (One has to give credit to those early martyrs, for, the development of a culture and language distinct from the Tamils would not have been possible without such bloodshed!).An interesting thing to notice is that the women of royal households in Kerala continued with the matriarchal system of taking husbands from among the Nambuthiri men. The Zamorins of Kozhikode and the Kolathiris of the extreme North Malabar chose their successors from among the nephews on the maternal side, like the Nairs.The practice became the norm in Travancore as well, after Anizham Thirunal MarthandaVarma's ascension to the throne after a fratricidal civil war with his cousins.

So, let’s not grudge anyone anything, lest we are branded sexually jealous!!!

Coming back to Ezhavas, let’s examine their attitude while dealing with people who were assigned roles lower than them in the caste hierarchy. Let them search their souls. Have they been fair? The answer is no. Despite Sri Narayana Guru’s exhortations of the oneness of all castes, gods and religions, neither the SNDP Yogam, nor the Ezhava Poets cared much for the plight of those less fortunate. I guess the temples consecrated by Gurudevan were not open to the Pulayars and other such lower castes. So, a transformation at a very basic level was not achieved despite the goodwill that Gurudevan wanted to extend to all humanity.

While on the subject, I would like to add that if Ezhavas hail their martial traditions, the Pulaya Community will not certainly be left behind!. This land, the rivers, the lakes, the majestic mountains and valleys, the rain clouds that lashed on the mighty Sahya Parvatham – well, what if I say all of these belonged the Pulaya Kings once upon a time.The eariest agriculturists and rulers of this fertile land, the Pulaya kings were lords of all that they surveyed; Ezhavas, being toddy tappers, were a food gathering tribe, in comparison.

(What the hell does it matter to me, any way? It does matter, as my blood boils at the fervour with which the absurdities recorded in a web page are discussed! What will be the outcome, if a thoroughly unbiased analysis of the past is possible?While it may not really be interesting to discover who fornicated whom, I am sure quite a few myths on the sacred origins of many, will be shattered.)

The combat practices known to certain Pulaya families in and around Trivandrum, are guarded secrets, so are the rare ayurvedic remedies known to them, that the Travancore Kings and their Nair Generals availed of, from time to time. "Thalapulayan" had a place of his own, in all agrarian transactions of South and Middle Travancore, throughout history.The dealings were direct with the Nair landlords.There were n't any intermediaries.

Why, Pulayanar Kottah (the Fort of the Pulaya King) is still there in Trivandrum, of course in shambles. So is the legend of the Padmanabha swamy temple, whose deity was discovered by a Pulaya woman !

And,then of course, there was Ayyankali; I would rate him as ahead of anyone else in the race, if any, for the slot for the greatest Social Revolutionary in Kerala in the past century.Pulayan Punchapadam 07:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Pulayan Punchapadam : You don't seem to be a Pulayan as you talk more about Nairs. And you just edited the comment on Nairs in the main article. So please don't try to create enemity between Ezhavas and Pulayas. Ayyankali was a great revolutionist. No doubt. But I don't want to compare or weigh him with Sree narayana Guru (as indirectly stated above). Regarding Ezhava temples, it's not true that it was not opened for Pulayas and others. Infact it was opened to all. May be there were some resistance from castiest Ezhavas of those times who couldn't accept the sudden change in society. Ezhavas did a big mistake by supporting Nairs during the Nair-Pulaya riot which was corrected immediatly by the influence of Gurudevan. Please note that we never stated anywhere that somebody is/was lower/higher to us. We just believe that everyone is of equal status no matter which caste he belongs to. But if you look at Nair article, you can see certain people trying to reiterate that they are of high class and others of low status. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 12:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Please note that the usage "you does n't" is incorrect."You don't " is the right expression.

Also, Ayyankali was beyond comparison, for the simple reason that he did not base himself anyone's sacred texts.It's just that he was fed up with the shackles, and was in no mood to be held down.

Why did n't Sree Narayana Guru reject the tenets of Hinduismm, altogether? Why was he afraid of his flock leaving the folds of a religion that had treated them as little more than dirt?


 * Reply - He was spiritual. He could understand the beauty of Hindusim. What was being followed in the past was not Hindusim. So he never attacked Hinduism and tried to reform. pallathottath

If he was such a great man, as he's made out to be,he should have had the confidence to realise that "Truth is a Pathless land" a la Jiddu Krishnamurthi.

It's easy to see that Sri Narayanan was little more than a mere addition to the pantheon of loquacious Gurus that this country is not in dearth of. The only difference, perhaps was that Sree Narayanan was committed to the upliftment of the Ezhavas. One would certainly not dispute, that the consecration of Siva Lingam ( the erect phallus of Shiva) at Aruvikkara was equivalent, in Freudian terms, to a bestowal of virility to an otherwise emasculated people.
 * Reply - He worked for all who were denied right (not just Ezhavas). You may not like Ezhavas but please don't show that on Guru. He was a saadhu. pallathottath

By the way, have you watched "Kodiyettam", Adoor's masterpiece?.The concluding shot, of flaghoisting at the Temple - the antithesis of "Dhwajabhanga" or erectile dysfunctioning- tells it all. In fact "kodiyettam" in Malayalam means flag hoisting. The role of the village idiot is immortalised on the screen by Gopi, an actor of formidable virtuosity, bordering on the genius. Well, I would draw a parallel with the film's theme here. Sree Narayana Guru presided over a "Kodiyettam " for the Ezhava community.And that's about all. 208.49.241.227 13:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

What do u mean they are tryin to show some as high class and some as low? if u mean nairs and ezhavas, nairs were high caste and ezhavas low caste..thts basic history..Manu

Manu - If I say you are of a low caste will you agree? NO. Same is the case with me and my caste. I am not ready to agree that we are/were a low caste (may be we were poor) and you have no right to say so. You don't dare to say this physically in front of an Ezhava.

See, caste is a very touchy subject and nobody likes to accept inferiority etc...but on a website like wiki we need to mention facts rite...im sorry if i hurt anybody...its just that wiki needs to carry information and we will have to go against each other for that Manu

Manu - Your statements won't hurt anyone. It only injects hatred between two communities. I still say no caste is/was inferior or superior to anybody. If you still believe in those things then I would say your mind is very inferior. Pallathottath

CONSIDERING THE GROWING TRIBE OF ENTHUSIASTIC EDITORS, IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SOMEONE CAME ALONG AND DECLARED THAT THE MONKEYS WHO CROSSED OVER TO SRILANKA AND FOUGHT FOR SITA AND SRI RAM, WERE NONE OTHER THAN EZHAVAS; THEY WERE JUST TAKING TIME OFF FROM DUTIES ATOP COCONUT TREES. HANUMAN, SUGREEVAN, BALI etc WERE THE REBEL LEADERS (PROTOTYPES OF MODERN DAY HEROES LIKE VELUPILLAI PRABHAKARAN.)JeeviykaanAnuvadiykoo 06:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Jeevi - Those monkeys must be your ancestors :)

Say "Our common ancestors", Pallatthotam

Thiyya Ezhava
There are confusions/arguments on the origin of these two groups. I saw some new stuffs come up on Thiyya origin. I am not commenting on that now. Whatever be the origin or culture, we just have to know that we are two communities cooperating each other socialy, fighting together for the betterment of both communities and has many marital relationships. I myself is an Ezhava married to a Thiyya. If we start creating a divide what will happen to the offsprings of Ezhava-Thiyya parents? Let's also add some stuffs on the Thiyya customs in Malabar, somehing about Muthappan etc.

Thiyyas prefer to marry among themselves. The culture and traditions of Thiyyas are quite different. They were not cut off from the main stream hindus, like the Ezhavas were.Thiyyas have martial traditions.Thiyyas of North Malabar are a prosperous groupChandranKadalundi 05:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Chandran - Ezhavas of Kollam prefer to marry from Kollam. Same is the case with other areas. This is only a regional preference. That does not mean that Ezhavas in each areas are different. Ezhavas too have martial tradition and are prosperous. I don't wish to continue this discussion any futher in this forum. May be it can be taken offline.

This has nothing to do with the regional preferences.We are two different communities and thatz a fact and am not telling just like that ..just based on the fact how the social strata of North Malabar was. information being passed on to me from my grand parents.Dunno why Ezhavas are so eager to align with us.

You are mistaken my friend. Ezhavas of south gets NOTHING aligning with Thiyyas of North. Ezhavas have enough glory to be proud of. If you are are a genuine Thiyya I invite you to join the yahoo group ""ezhavas"" and debate within the group. We have Ezhava and thiyya members over there. User:Pallathottath

Subcastes
I think we should not have this section. I am not aware of these subdivsions (I guess a majority). It's a fact that lot of different castes combined together to form the present day Ezhavas and there was heirarchy within the community. But we don't need to look back and say somebody was superior to another. This can only create divide within the community. What say? Pallathottath

What say? = enthu parayunnu ?

No grass is going to walk here. = Ivide oru pullum nadakkan pokunnilla.

Masgunan Mananthavaadi 10:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed it .. Pallathottath

pALLATHOTTAM SHABARIMALAYKU

KALLUM MULLUM KAALUKKU METHAI,

SWAMIYE, AYYAPPO,

AYYAPPO, SWAMIYE

Koppan Kottukalpalli 09:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

ONE FAILS TO SEE WHY A SLY COMMENT ON VELU THAMPY DALAWA, THE UNSUNG HERO OF THE STRUGGLE FOR RELEASE FROM THE BRITISH YOKE, HAS TO FIND A PLACE IN AN "ENCYCLOPAEDIA ARTICLE"(!)ON THE OCCUPATIONS OF EZHAVAS, EXCEPT FOR THE MALICIOUS INTENT OF SLANDERING THE GENERAL KNOWN FOR HIS MANY VIRTUES.

IS IT THAT WIKIPAEDIA ALLOWS UNSUBSTANTIATED, UNIMPORTANT STATEMENTS WHICH ARE BETTER SUITED FOR A PARLANCE BETWEENN IDLE HOUSEWIVES? WHAT PROOF CAN ANYONE PRODUCE THAT THAMPY HAD YARDSTICKS OTHER THAN THOSE BASED STRICTLY ON MERIT FOR RECRUITMENT TO THE TRAVANCORE ARMY? VELU THAMPI WAS KNOWN FOR HIS EQUANIMITY AND COMMITMENT TO JUSTICE FOR COMMON MAN AND IF HE HAD REJECTED SOMEONE AS UNFIT FOR SERVICE IN THE ARMY, IT WOULD CERTAINLY NOT BE ON THE BASIS OF THE LATTER'S CASTE.

AS SUCH, THE PHYSICAL STANDARDS MAINTAINED BY THE TRAVANCORE ARMY WERE EXCEPTIONAL. (THE COURTYARD OF THE PADMANABHAPURAM PALACE STILL HAS A HUGE BOULDER THAT THE ASPIRANT FOR ARMY SERVICE HAD TO LIFT UP AND HOLD ABOVE HIS HEAD FOR FIVE MINUTES!)

FOR CENTURIES, THE OFFICERS OF THE TRAVANCORE ARMY HAILED FROM THE MANY "PADANAIR VEEDU" (LITERALLY FAMILIES THAT BRED NAIR SOLDIERS" ) SPREAD OUT IN SOUTH TRAVANCORE.HENCE THE NAME "NAIR PATTALAM" FOR THE ARMY.IT WAS NOT A TERM THAT VELUTHAMPY INVENTED.

THE ARTICLE IS AMATEURISH; APART FROM THAT THE QUALITY OF ENGLISH IS LOW, BARRING A FEW SECTIONS, viz BUDDHIST ROOTS, CONVERSION TO... etc.).

EITHER WAY, IT SHOULD NOT BE AN ORGAN FOR VILIFICATION CAMPAIGN AGAINST TRAVANCORE'S MOST AUDACIOUS GENERAL.

IT'S HIGH TIME THE MATERIAL FLOUTED HERE IS THOUROUGHLY SCRUTINISED BY A PANEL OF EXPERTS LEST THE CREDIBILITY OF WIKIPAEDIA IS IMPAIRED.

S R K MENON 06:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * dear SRK - VELU (Velayaudhan) is no hero for me. He fought against british to safe guard his power and the beniffiting class of those times and not for the entire Malayali community. VELU THAMPI WAS KNOWN FOR HIS EQUANIMITY AND COMMITMENT TO JUSTICE . Do you think justice was given to all? Think before you write something. Also people are not fools to believe that the only meritious soldiers were from your community. I would call it 100% reservation to a group. Pallathottath

English-Pallathotish Dictionary meritorious == meritious Are there History Books in Pallathotish? If not, where did Pallithotam pick up this history from? We must hail Manichan Chirayinkil( jailed by the anti-people establishment for hooch heroism) as Kerala's leader; not Veluthampi Dalwa. He's only any other Velu.

Menon, you should "think" before you write. Look before you leap.Learn history from Pallathottam. Otherwise he will scold you in Pallathotish. ( He can't do much more.)Masgunan Mananthavaadi 05:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Masagunan, My english is poor. Apart from that I don't get time to do spell check or grammer check. Thank god, Masagunan is there to correct it.
 * Why are you unneccesarily bringing in Manichan to this discussion? Did I talk about Sukumarakurup or Latha Nair? Manichan was an Abkari just like any other abkaris (belonging to all communities) and was trapped. The same will be the fate for others too. Pallathottath

As far as I understand,this is a site meant for people who can communicate effectively in English. There is n't any reserved quota, whatsoever, for substandard expression.

Also, why does one have to stop at Velu and Nanu? Why not Sukumara Kurup and Lata Nair too, not to mention Manichan, that ingenious inventor of affordable inebriation, that dispenser of justice for the masses?Masgunan Mananthavaadi 06:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, "Reservation". That was your intention behind playing this whole language drama. For your kind info, Reservation for education is based on financial status. I heard you are also going to get that. And reservation for jobs is only in Govt sector, which most of us are not interested in. I am living in a global world where there is no question of reservation arising. Btw, how could you play this reservation trump card when your ancestors were enjoying 100% reservation in the past for centuries?
 * Coming back to language, my standard is sufficient to communicate but for few spelling mistakes which will be corrected by Masagunan, my PA. Anyway I need C, C++, perl than English to survive in this world.


 * This discussion is going off the topic. I didn't see any valid argument from you Mr. Masagunan. Keep spitting vocabulary from Barron's GRE Pallathottath

Did you mean "Paternal Ancestor" by PA ? Spare me the ordeal, please. I am not interested.

Barron's GRE is too elementary for most, though it may be your Bible.

C,C++ and PERL too have rules of syntax. I fail to see how you will be able to grasp these, since the same neuron network will be at work. I hope against hope that the bridges and flyovers will not collapse all of a sudden, that aeroplanes will not come crashing down en masse - mere portents of a truly calamitous future- if tom, dick and harry are allowed to write software. Fortunately, the multinationals are slowly waking up to the reality, though belatedly, of the need for strict quality control in HRD.(Bill Gates' openly expressed preference for the Iyengars of Mysore is well known.)

No government in India can go ahead with a progressive policy to encourage merit and talent as long as the "followers" of Chempazhanthi Nanu etc cry foul.

I appreciate your aversion for govt. jobs. That's certainly why Nanu Annan's boys hail the Mandal Commission.

Therefore this country will continue to maintain status quo as the World's latrine.

Indeed there's little point in paying attention to substandard stuff - not to mention arguing!

I pin my hopes on the developed world at large, where merit alone counts!- at least as of now.Masgunan Mananthavaadi 06:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Masa, Try to be more civilized.. Your parents should have taught you this instead of injecting caste hatred. Anyway I don't want to argue with idiots. Pallathottath

My parents have alerted me in time, of the dangers posed by the upwardly mobile, gene-hunting Nanuites.As a result an outstanding academic record helped me sail through the conundrum of the Indian System, growing hostile everyday to intelligence and talent, thanks to the efforts of Nanuites and their brethren elsewhere in the country.It's worked out right for me, since I shifted to the International arena very early in my career, gathering strength from the open, fair competition.(I should be grateful to the Nanuites, perhaps!

Since two negatives cancel each other, I rejoice when a moron of the first order-steeped in the murk of caste jealousy and incompetence-, chooses to brand me an idiot.By Jove, you thought I was arguing with YOU? Masgunan Mananthavaadi 10:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)