Talk:Ezhava/Archive 2

Untouchability
Can we also talk about how people from the caste were also toddy-tappers and how they were victims of untouchability ? It seems to me that while the laudatory aspects of Ezhava culture and achievements are well and good, we should not shy away from talking about what Ezhavas went through. Ashankar 12:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ashankar (talk • contribs) 11:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

Vandalism
There are wiki articles on various communities of India belonging to different states and linguistic backgrounds. Nowhere else do I see this level of intolerance as the communities of Kerala. As a member of Ezhava community, I am miffed at seeing the edits by certain individuals that attempt to belittle, marginalize and defame the community and vandalize the document in general.

Is that a problem with people like Thankachan Pappachan that they cannot be tolerant of others? Wouldn't a little bit of broad mindedness and mental growth good for every one?

Enna okkeyadaa ezhuthi vachiriykunne? Loka mahaa puluvanmaaare? Aromal chekavaru ezhavanannu aaraada ninnodu paranje? ithenthoram nonaya? Ennathinadaa ingane nona paranju valyaalavunne? Ezhavare ividittu odichu thallukarunnilyo? Athalyo sathyam? Athangottu paranjaal ennathaada oru korachilu?Kochu Thomman Kottappadi 08:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a widely known fact that Aaromal Chekavar and Unniyarcha were Ezhavas. For a reference, see Malayalam Encyclopedia, Sarvavijnjana Kosham Volume 4(volume starting with "Ee").


 * This man has surfaced again. It's easy to make out that ""Kochu Thomman"" is not a Christian. I Thought he understood his mistake when he deleted his prior post. But he is repeating the same. Please check out Civility - Panikkar

He could be anything. Why do you say he is not Christian?


 * Here is the previous post from him which he deleted later Potteda makkale, Pottu. Veruthe Videdey. Onnuvillelum avammaru mamodeesaa mungiya ezhavaralyo? margam koodiyavaralyo?Kochu Thomman Kottappadi 11:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC). Do you expect such words from a Christian who claims to be the descendant of nambuthiris? Whatever community he belongs to, he is here to vandalize the article. Panikkar

How can you be certain?He may be trying sarcasm. Majority of the christians areEzhavas.There was a spurt in numbers after mass conversion by missionaries. There are records to prove this.But there is no evidence that any Christian was originally a Nambuthiri.It is a lie propagated by the church.Nambuthiris had strict rules. Many nambuthiri women were turned out of their home for flimsy reasons. Sometimes these cast-away women were sold to merchants.Who were these merchants?They were none other than rich christians. They wished to better their race.For example ,consider Sheela, former film actress. Sheela is a catholic from Trichur.Sheela's grandmother was a Nambuthiri woman, the notorious Kuriyedathu Thathri.She had to leave home because of Bhrashtu. A Christian from Trichur married her. Her daughter was married to Antony, an Anglo Indian. (Rail Engine Driver).Sheela or Sheela Celine is Antony's daughter. There may be many such cases. Because there were many cases of Bhrashtu. Apart from this, there is no Nambuthiri blood in Syrian Christians. Perhaps some more people were forced to convert during Foriegn rule. Ajilal 08:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Halle, nee kollavalloda kochane? Ithenna kandupidithavaada? Neeyaannoda Thomas Ajilalva Edison? Eee kathayokke evidunnu kittiyeda ninakku? Appol..ividuthe kaasholla mothalalimaarokke nazraanikalaarunnu. Ivalumare okke kettunnatharunnu, Nazraanikade pradhaana paripadi, alyo?Pinnethaandu recordo guinnesso ondennu parennondallo? Evidaada ee recordokke? Eee jnaanoodonnu kandotte. Pinne?Vere enna okke ondu? Onnu paranjaatte, Ajilaale.Kochu Thomman Kottappadi 09:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The Namboothiri theory is the result of an effort to gain social respect. Indians have a symbolistic culture, where you need to align with symbols of ancient practices or foreign cultures to feel good. My theory! Anyway this is interesting, the Sheela story. Now, this article is about Ezhava, a community of people in Kerala. The history of other people is not relevant here. Even Ezhava history itself needs to be summarized neatly and not in great detail as we need to provide information about the community today in this article. We need to create another article/articles for other topics and purposes.


 * ORU JAATI, ORU MATHAM, ORU DAIVAM MANUSHYANU - Forget this not. 59.93.222.166


 * What is your point? Everyone knows about the Guru's vision. However all people needs to understand it. The discussions here are about the slander and intolerance some men show towards Ezhavas. Don't we need to respond? May be you need to advice us the teachings that no one follows. "If they slap on one cheek, show the other". Nice try. Unni1


 * Please sign you posts Panikkar


 * As Unni rightly said Guru's vision is not restricted to any community nor it's a rule. This article is about the Ezhava community and not about the teachings of Sri Narayana Guru. About "Oru jaathi....", don't take it in literal sense. Caste is a reality in our society and it's almost impossible to destroy it. So live with it.. But consider all castes as equal and respect each other to reduce communal tensions. Panikkar


 * I just wanted to expose the user Kochu Thomman Kottappadi. He is trying his level best to Vandalise this page and see how much is he interested in Nair page.


 * His comments on Vivin's talk page
 * Roughly translated, the stuff looks like this: If the nairs do not like the use of "sudra", "savarnasudra" etc, why do you force feed these? There may be so many other ways of expressing the same matter.There's n't a need to quote text where it's offensive or unpleasant. The purpose of the article is to distribute relevent details to the public.This can be done in other ways also.It need not pin prick someone..well, it's upto you nairs what you write about yourselves. Similiar tactics with Christians/Muslims may generate violent reactions. Also i feel at ease with Malayalam, and my own brand of Malayalam.This is the dialect of the central travancore christians.I can express a lot with it.Please bear with it.I hope you understand malayalam.Language, after all, is little more than a means of communication.Kochu Thomman Kottappadi 05:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Why is he so much worried about a Nair calling himself Sudra? Panikkar

Chekavar
I see some similarities between Thiyyas and Ezhavas interms of the title Chekavar. Initially I thought it was a surname used only by Thiyyas of Malabar. But I see many examples of Ezhavas (of south) having the same surname in the past.. Please take a look at wiki page Chekavar. User:Panikkar

Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)
http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayItems.asp?id=SET20021221042249&eTitle=Think+Piece&rLink=0

Ezhava and thiyya pls anzr me
Some say Ezhavas and thiyyas are different races.But this is hidden agenda by some vetsed interest to divide the community.The word Ezhava have derived from izham and Thiyya derived from dweep both pointing to island. If so, why are there no ezhavas in north kerala but in karnataka with the names billava and idiga which echos similar to word ezhava? Why idigas is karnataka also called deevaru ? Why edigas is "AndhraPradesh" also called Dhiyaramakkalu, name resembling ezhava and thiyya? How come both have same surname like thandan, thandar, chekavar? Why both have same traditional resposibilities/Jobs in the society, like toddy shopping, Ayurvedic business, martial art? If one set of people from Europe then their mother tongue might be completely different from those in kerala. Then, why those people not using that language, now? Atleast they should have still using some of the words of that language. (Its also remember that kerala's current population's history doest go back beyond 2000 years. Konkani community who started settlement in kerala around 1500 years back still using their mother tongue.) There is a place called "Ezhavathuruthi" in Malappuram Ditrict of kerala. Still ezhavas are called thiyyas there, why? In maladives history, it says the original inhabitants of islands were theevarus and they left the islands to cape camrin in india when 'outsiders' attacked the island.

Also there is shocking refence in old British travalogue which calls Thiyya as shanan? Actually shanans are old name nadars in tamil nadu. see a link here according to 1871 census all toddy tapers are cultivators of trees and castes like idigas of Karnataka ,Nadars of Tamilnadu and Tiyyas of Kerala are categorised as Shanan which means tree cultivators in tamil and slowly its used to refer Nadar caste after Bishop Caldwel refered them as Shanars in his book 'Tinnevely Shanars'...In 1981 shannan category is the second in population http://krpcds.org/report/Ganesh.pdf

How can you compare wrt complexion? how can you say ezhavas are darker than thiyya couterparts? Both have fair and darker people. one of the most beatiful malayali actress Ranichandra was born in south. So the case Kr vijaya, Mukesh, Rathish, devan, chippi etc... If yopu have seen Minister Mullakkara Ratnakaran few years back you might have exclaimed. he was born in Mullakkara(kollam) http://www.kerala.gov.in/government/mullaka.htm.

I am not telling all are fair in south but there both dark and fair skinned people in north awa south not just in thiyya/ezhava, but in vast majority communities.

Daya anjali 09:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the problem here is with the wrong perception of some Thiyyas about Ezhavas, that Ezhavas were merely toddy tappers and laborers. But that's not the fact. Ezhavas too have martial, Ayurvedic traditions, Aristocratic families, landlords etc. My family had acres of agricultural land in the 19th.
 * I have also seen comments saying "don't allign with us for glory".. What glory? I don't know if that was written by a thiyyan or an outsider. Whatever it be, I personally know people who think both (E n T) are two different castes and someothers (my thiyya relatives) think both are the same.
 * Regarding skin color, it's a fact that thiyyas are fairer on an average. That doesn't mean they migrated from Tiyan mountian. Some famous Thiyyas like Srinivasan, Azheekode, Pappu doesn't look caucasian as stated in the book Lanka Parvam (by Damu). I think the book was written out of imagination and lack proper study. Someone commented above "We just don't have that paandi look".. Please understand we all are descendands of dravidians. Tamilians are darker because there were no race mixing. They are purer than us. User:Panikkar

I have seen Ezhava-thiyya differences only in these forums. If you are outiside kerala like Bangalore, chennai, Mumbai,coorg, Gulf etc u wont notice differences. Marriage between from ezhavas of SOUTH KERALA AND PLACES LIKE KANNUR are very common in these areas and its very difficult identify them as by their local names. 125.16.143.133 05:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Ezhava Follows Patriarchal family systems - A tottally wrong articulation
The upper class ezhavas in south kerala always followed Matriarchal family systems while lower class followed Patriarchal family systems. All channar, Chekavar, panicker, vaidyar, thampi(ezhava), Thandar families followed Matriarchal family systems only. Some families which follows are listed here http://www.alummoottil.com/Heritage/Radhakrishnan/Chapter02/C2P01.htm

Daya anjali 07:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's funny. Your very own reference says this:
 * "It may be noted that Ezhavas, in general,                  were following ‘makkathayam’ or ‘patrilinear’ system and only             Ezhava families like Alummoottil, Komalezham, Lekshana, Vallabhasseril,                   Thurayil, Varanappallil, Kallisseril, Menatheril etc in the             ‘onattukara’                   area (the present areas of Karthikappally, Mavelikkara and             Karunagappally taluks) were following this system, till the Hindu             Succession Act                   was introduced." -- vi5in [talk] 17:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is nothing funny out there. ezhavas followed Matriarchal family system. After beeing puuled to backyard by brahmins and their followers most of families become economically weaker and forced to move out traditions like joint family and marumakkathayam.Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 09:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why are you deflecting? Your argument has no basis. You used that reference to justify your position. But that reference says exactly the opposite of what you are trying to say. At any rate, I am looking for references now that talk about what system Ezhavas actually followed. I am aware that some sections did form Marumakkathayam, but by and large, it appears that Ezhavas followed Makkathayyam. -- vi5in [talk] 03:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Are Ezhavas from Iran?
There is a tradition in the ‘Vadakkan pattukal’ that the Ezhavas arrived in Kerala by sea from Ezham, which is interpreted to be the present day Sri Lanka. However, it is interesting to note that the land to the east of the Tigris in Iran, now called Khuzistan was once known as Elam. A civilization flourished there five thousand years ago with city states having distinctive culture and language. Their language is found similar to the Dravidian language. In any case it appears that the ancestors of the present inhabitants of south India had arrived here by sea rather than by land from the north. It was only at a much later stage that the region now constituting Kerala developed its distinctive culture.

Link

Daya anjali 05:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed they are from Iran. That's why Vellapally Natesan and the Shah of Iran lokk like brothers separated at birth.Ninte Ponnu Thampuran 05:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Peace !!!!!!!!!!
Guys Peace! I am no anthropologists. What ever I have stated in my previous discussion was based on my personal observation and experience. I have got friends from all over Kerala and I got opportunities to attend some of their marriages. There are indeed lots of differences between people from Malabar and South Kerala. The differences are not just in looks, there are also difference in language, dressing, food and hospitality.

On one of the wedding that I attended was in Trissur, where the groom was from a Syrian catholic, very well to do family and the bride was a Marthomite from Thiruvalla. It was obviously a love arranged marriage. When the bride's party arrived at the scene there were some silent comments from the guests on the groom side. These were mainly on looks and dressing. Even thought most of the people on bride side were NRI's, mainly from Kuwait and US.

Similarly I attended another wedding reception between thiyya bride and ezhava groom in Ernakulam. When the bride walked on to the stage, I could again here silent voices in the background from guests on groom side specifically on the looks and dressing of the bride.

I can go on and on... But my point is that Malabar and South remained divided in the past for too long and mixing of people didn’t happen. South I have to agree have got more pure stock of Dravidians than north. If you argue based on the "kola thozil" as the basis for a caste, then how can nadars be considered different from ezhavas, similarly billavas from thiyyas.

So let peace remain, the marriages continue and we will have one big happy family! --Keralone 23:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

My deleted posts/ Vandalised
Let me first paste the reply from Wikipedia

My postings deleted Why?
I find that two of my posting on the page Talk:Ezhava has been removed. Is it done by the editor or by someone else? Is it because the posts are content rich and not mere repeatation of oft repeated themes.

My posts headings include: A general answer

Please give me an answer someone.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 18:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that is vandalism. Feel free to undo it. Though I would have to say that you would probably be better served being more concise, as people are more likely to read such material. The Evil Spartan 18:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC) It helps to look at the edit history of a page. You can see who added or deleted what. The removal in this case was done by an IP user, which means it could have been anyone. They did not leave much of an edit summary, so there's no way to determine their reasoning (although Spartan is probably right in this case). This sort of thing happens every day. Several times a minute, actually. [] User:DarkAudit:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 11:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC) It doesn't help feigning blind to facts. It reaches us nowhere

I am re-posting my three posts; I did not know that it was so noticeable as to provoke inimical minds.


 * I have removed your posts - you don't need to repost the same thing seven times. Once was quite enough. Natalie 11:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a wrong perception that has come here. My posts were attacked several times a day, with dangerous themes, for which I cannot take reponsiblity. Instead of being protected my posts have be completely removed. I think this was what the vandals wanted.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 16:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of those who are interested this is the link to the version of my posts, that were removed: [] --Ved from Victoria Institutions 10:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Rejoinder to User:Keraleeyan.
I saw your comment on my writings. I am grateful that someone has openly appreciated the contents. You comments are regretfully lost from this page. It is available on the link I gave above.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 10:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Palm Wine Makers
I would reword it to “Palm Wine Makers” and make it part of our cultural and heritage that can proudly shown to visitors from around the world, similar to what Scots have done with the whisky makers. Remember Kerala is the birth place for Palm wine making in India and other different Palm related products.

For that we must move on mentally, though in material sense we have already moved ahead. --Keralone 12:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Palm wine making is a small job done by a small percentage of the Great Clan "EZHAVAR KULAM". People belong this great clan were Great Teachers, Physicians, Warriors, Aristocrats, Land Loards, Astrologer, Sanskrit Scholers, Artists, Weavers, Farmers and lot more in all noble platforms.

It is not Ezhava or Ezhavas or Thiyya or Thiyyas .It is EZHAVAR, THIYYAR. CHEKAVAR ... "GREAT EZHAVAR KULAM".

Ignore All these nonsense comments
Dear All please ignore all these comments those guys who wanted degrade such an cultured community. contribute to this particular topic so that we can improve the current content of this article.

Daya anjali 10:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The users 125.16.143.133, ninte ..., manu etc are all part of anti-Ezhava and anti-thiyya syndicate. Please ignore their comments. They are suffering from a disease called "jealousy". Yet to be named

I don't know about the rest, but manu does not mean to be anti-ezhava, some of his comments may seem insulting but he does it to keep this page encyclopedic since if you read Wiki policies it strictly says wikipedia is not a place for original research. Manu does the same on the Nair wiki page too. So it is nothing particular to Ezhavas. Lastly just because someone edits an article and makes it encyclopedic that makes them " jealous "? You carry on believing that if it makes you happy. But according to you anyone who corrects another is now officially jealous. Please remind me to accuse you of jealously next time you come on Namboothiri or Nair talk pages and say anything ;) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Veracious-sojourner (talk • contribs).

Intellectualism in seclusion
I find that all my posts have been removed. Also, all the debates that sprang up from them. If this is the type of intellectual debate that is going to be conducted here, it certainly is a sad day for information. Unilateral declarations on the basis of some technical titles, made without any basis do not make valid data. Also, I find that when my posts have been removed, there is no more vandalism. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 12:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you gave a very good point to introspect for the community, but unfortunately it has fallen on deaf ears. It is really pathetic that the so called “intellectual” and rational thinking community is making a mock at reality. Ezhavas should feel proud of their humble past compared to their position in the society today, rather than trying to brag about a fictional past like many other communities. A proud Ezhava should say “ hey we were tody-tappers in the past, but then look what we have achieved today”. Attitudes like “entuppoppakkoru ana undayirunnu” is not a good idea. First be proud of yourself then others will also follow suit. That's the bottom-line. User:Keraleeyan


 * Keraleeyan Why should I say my ancestors were toddy tappers when they weren't ? Toddy tapping was a profession done by a section of Thiyyas and Ezhavas, but not by all. At some point in time it was an attractive profession in terms of income as compared to plucking coconuts. This term was/is being used to insult the community as a whole. Sri Narayana Guru realised this fact and hence advised to stop brewing and consuming liquor.
 * Hi Ved, I feel sorry for you post getting deleted. My reply to that is also lost. I would suggest you contribute your knowledge about thiyyas and expertise in english towards the main article, providing the sources. If you feel a thiyya is referred as Ezhava, pls edit it.
 * I think Itty Achyuthan is from south or central kerala. user:Panikkar

An effort at correction
I would like to bring out the wrong perspective in the post Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)

It is not correct; Ezhavas are not known as Thiyyar in Malabar.
 * in Malabar and some parts of Kochi they are known as Thiyyar,

I do not know about Itty Achyuthan. Yet, as he was a person who helped in the compilation of Hortius Malabaricus, it is possible that he is from Malabar. So he must be a Thiyya. This can just a dream 08:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC) Tiyas of Malabar, like the Ezhavas of Cochin and Travancore, are with martial heritage.” I do not think that all Thiyyas were with marital heritage, like one may identify the Sikhs (even though it is not possible all Sikhs had martial feelings). Kalari was a practise in some Thiyya household, but for the majority Thiyya, it had no relevance. Even among the Thiyyas who did practise Kalari, it was not to give a position of social elevation, other than the physical exercise.

Most of the things mentioned in the article are basically the historical experiences of the Ezhavas. There is no need to superimpose them on the Thiyya population.

This I am saying not because I feel the Thiyyas as a superior race and the Ezhavas as an inferior. It is just because I find that there are severe mistakes being given the halo of scholarship.

When I was in Travancore, the school classes did teach about the ‘terrible British rule’; yet, it is a historical fact that the British did not rule Travancore and Cochin. The problems that the Ezhavas suffered is basically connected to the realities of living under Indian Kings, as opposed to the liberation that was given under the British rule; what I am saying is absolutely contrary to what is taught by History teachers and professors in immense schools and colleges in India.

Being a subjugated class always inspires feelings of inferiority complex. Not only the Ehavas, but also the Thiyyas did have this feeling. Yet, a small time of political liberation did give a small group of Thiyyas the mental liberation.

A Thiyya-Ezhava marriage is essentially an inter-caste marriage It does not mean that one is superior and the other is inferior. There are Thiyyas who have married schedule caste professionals who are internationally mobile. I have not noticed any inferiority complex in them. There are Thiyyas who have married Brahmins. In both cases, I did not discern any inferiority complex.

Again talking about leaders, Dr. Palpu, Sree Narayana Guru, SNDP, Kumaran Asan, R Sankar, and such movements as Ezhava Memorial, Civil Right League in the 1920s and the Abstention Movement of the 1930s, and institutions like Kaumudi daily, Vivekodayam and Mitavadi and such could be connected to the Ezhavas. I do not think that the Thiyyas as a group did have much to do with them; so they cannot claim any legacy to them.. (I am not sure of all of them).

Again in the main article on Ezhava, I find a mention of an incident that is said to have ignited the Mappila Lahala. It is mentioned that one Ezhava women of Ponnani, who had converted to Islam did go to meet a higher caste man attired with an upper garment. She then addressed the upper caste man with his name. In anger, he pulled out her upper garment. Now the basic mistake I find in this story, (if it is true), is that since this incident purportedly took place in Ponnani, in Valluvanad, it is very much possible that the mentioned women is a Thiyya and not an Ezhava. Yet, when propriety of what she did is discussed, it was a misdemeanor. Even now in Malayalam, social or positional subordinates or even age wise subordinates are not allowed to address a superior by name, other with a suffix of a title.

What this means is that the same problems that haunted the people of this land is still stalking us. Actually, now the caste based on Nair, Ezhava, Thiyya, Brahmin etc. is breaking down. For caste is essentially connected to profession as encoded in a feudal language. No Thiyya doctor will marry a Thiyya tailor or a driver unless overcome with infatuation. Similar is the case with Ezhavas and the Nairs; and also with the Brahmins. Doctors, Engineers, Management professionals and other career persons now belong to a higher class. The physically labouring or working classes including carpenters belong to a lower class.

In spite of all social revolutions, we have not arrived at the social designs of English nations. It is not possible with a feudal language designing us.

In Madras, I have seen Brahmin girls marrying lower caste persons of professional standing, and enjoying the benefits.

The present day Brahmin is the government employee; and next the teacher, who comes with the title of Sar and Teacher & Madam (female) in Travancore and Sar and Mash in Malabar. These titles are replacing caste titles. Within a few decades, the whole social designs connected to the ancient caste system will be wiped out. And replaced with newer castes, with the same superiority and inferiority issues.

The antique Brahmins are technically finished as far as social positions are concerned.

Now, to conclude: there is no need for clinging on to wrong perceptions. What is required is real cultural enhancement, which can outlive the affects of years of servitude. Colour and the vocation of ancestors do not matter. I personally will recommend a dose of British English in its uncorrupted form, as fantastic software for personality development.

And now a word to the Vandal who is lingering somewhere like a slimly creature in the grass: Do not simply destroy this post without trying to understand the information it contains.

User:Keraleeyan: Your crisp and sharp words, unlike my long worded prose, is true. Yet, I am not sure if you will agree with all I said. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 13:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Excellent articulation Mr.Ved. Your social observation is impeccable. Yes, the fraternity equations are fast changing. I know at least a dozen brahmin girls who have married Ezhava/Thiyya boys, in most cases both being IT professionals. The staggering fact is that many kids born to these parents are brought up as brahmins! So the next generation will have many brahmins who are born to Thiya/Ezhava fathers! The society is fast moving towards a class based one rather than a caste based. I personally feel this is a good trend and we are slowly moving towards a casteless society, at least in the Metros for sure.

Regarding your other postings, I do have difference of opinion in certain points. I do believe that both Ezhavas and Thiyas belong to the same basic community and the difference one could find in Thiyas is just because of the better education and race mix. Culturally, of course, most of the communities including the muslims in the Malabar area claim that they are above the travancoreans. Even talking in valluvanadan slang is a big vogue among the younger generations of Kerala. However, honestly, one could never find any difference between a thiya, who is dark in complexion (who didn’t have any race mix) and an ezhava from the travancore and most of the thiyas are also dark in complexion.

Reply to User: Panikker :- Sir, I have no intention to hurt your ego, may be there were ezhavas who had other occupations than toddy tapping. Nevertheless, most of the ezhavas were toddy tappers and we are discussing about the community in totality and not about a particular family. I don’t think -even in the remotest sense- that toddy tapping was a low profession. After all, all professions deserves its respect.User:Keraleeyan

reply
How can you say its not correct? how both are not same? do u have any valid proof that they are same? have u heard abt mannan caste of south kerala(also called vannan in some areas). There r listed in ST list in bracket its vannan (of malabar). You know vannan and peruvannan caste has major role in a lot of temples in north kerala and theyyam. but vat abt mannan caste? they dont know any folk art at all. their responsibilty is to wash clothes of ezhavas. with this can u say they are different caste. these guys should not listen this. they will ... Link. ezhavas in south may not be knowing much abt muthappan and in their temples Theyyam may not be there. This is the case of all caste in kerala.

Nambiars and Nairs in North Malabar, until the early twentiteth century held a prejudice that they were superior counterparts in South of korapuzha river. In earlier days, Nambiar women, like most women of Nair clans of North Malabar would not unite herself to Nair men of South Malabar, nor to Nair men from central and south Kerala. Therefore such superior-clan Nair woman of North Malabar(Nambiar women being no exception), could not pass the hills to the eastward and the Korapuzha to the south. It was a taboo and breach of which involved forfeiture of caste.

So as there are no nambiars and menons in south kerala. That doesnt mean that they are not part of nairs. This type cast divide is there in each and every region in kerala.

have u seen `Ilaneerveppu' at Kottiyur Siva Temple? coconut is brought by thiyya members. they are called thandiyars and thandars. just like `Ilaneerveppu' performed at ezhav temples

ved, Your main intention is to divide the community on the basis of caste name. if you say ezhava/thiyya marriages are intercaste marriages, then thousands of marriages have already happned. i too become son of intercast parent !!! Now girls of thiyya community are married to haryana boys. Link its also happening. so there is aprogress of ur intention.

Daya anjali 07:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

u r talking abt Tk Madhavan ,kumaranasan and all. (how can u include asan in this list, man?. he is more a keralite poet than being an ezhava. u dont have even right call urself as keralite...che ) Then what abt Moorkoth kumaran, Moorkoth  ramunni, Moorkoth Kunhappa, Swamy Bodhananda, Champadan Vijayan(Thalassery)? one of the major temple of ezhavas in calicut sree kanteswara temple in built by narayana guru. pls go thru http://www.sreekanteswara.com. so the case jagannatha temple and sundareswara temple. if u stil like to c the divide u can start demolishing all these temples. also SN college kannur, R shankar memorial college koilandy, SN college chellannur, Sree Narayana Guru College of Engineering and Technology (SNGCET), Payyannur,etc. Ask to close down all SNDP union branches and yogams there...

First sree narayana guru statue was built in Thalassery. that also u can demolish. so the cases all other sree narayan statues in malabar. Also u can request so called thiyyas registered in marimony sites like keralamatrimony, shaadi, etc to ask them to change them ezhava to thiyya(90% have added ezhava in profile or partner preference details). So once complete all pls let me know. man, '''entire thiyyas in malabar will come sit on ur head, including me. so beware..'''.. dont come back and say i respect him.. dont do respect him. there are many people like me too do so.....

I know which caste u belong to and which political party u belong to. and of cource, ur intension too. thats never possible, da... evn u should be careful, if u so much hatred towards this community,beware,. one day u will be forced to marry from this community. or ur sister or daughter or 'bharya'. (even one of them may runaway with someone from this community)....

After reading ur comments, what i unserstood is. u r not refering thiyya itself, u r refering tiya.. Just got. Is it because of tiya mountain theory, rt? there is tiyar adivasi in Bengal.LInk. will u say both are from tiya mountains and of same race? how far this mountain from kerala? they have stellted only in north kerala. they have missed many beautiful places like costal konkan, goa etc man.... and they have came 7000 yrs back. and settled only there ...thats toooo much....da

hey u have not anzwered a sinle reply from earlier Question ... and given common reply without any anzwer ..... thats not acceptable ... u prove it man....

Reposting ...... Some say Ezhavas and thiyyas are different races.But this is hidden agenda by some vetsed interest to divide the community.The word Ezhava have derived from izham and Thiyya derived from dweep both pointing to island. If so, why are there no ezhavas in north kerala but in karnataka with the names billava and idiga which echos similar to word ezhava? Why idigas is karnataka also called deevaru ? Why edigas is "AndhraPradesh" also called Dhiyaramakkalu, name resembling ezhava and thiyya? How come both have same surname like thandan, thandar, chekavar, vaidyar etc? Why both have same traditional resposibilities/Jobs in the society, like toddy shopping, Ayurvedic business, martial art? If one set of people from Europe then their mother tongue might be completely different from those in kerala. Then, why those people not using that language, now? Atleast they should have still using some of the words of that language. (Its also remember that kerala's current population's history doest go back beyond 2000 years. Konkani community who started settlement in kerala around 1500 years back still using their mother tongue.) There is a place called "Ezhavathuruthi" in Malappuram Ditrict of kerala. Still ezhavas are called thiyyas there, why? In maladives history, it says the original inhabitants of islands were theevarus and they left the islands to cape camrin in india when 'outsiders' attacked the island.

Also there is a refence in old British travalogue which calls Thiyya as shanan? Actually shanans are old name nadars in tamil nadu. see a link here http://krpcds.org/report/Ganesh.pdf

Daya anjali 07:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not "shanan". It's "channaan" or "channaar". Remember "Bhranthan Channaan" or the "mad channan", the disguised persona of "Ananthapadmanabhan", the central character in CV's "Marthanda Varma". Also, there's "Channaar Lahala" or the "revolt of the Channaars" to recall.The fact remains that Nadars climbed Palm Trees, wheres Ezhavas, their counterparts in Kerala, attacked Coconut Palms, both to eke out a living.It's not surprising therefore that the term "channars" refers to both these communities, especially in the bordering district of Neyyatinkara and in South Travancore, in general.In fact the skill to scamber up tall trees has been transormed in later stages as ambition to make it big in the polity. Both Nadaars and Ezhavas are forces to reckon with in the political scenario of Tamilnadu and Kerala. I wonder whether the terms "chovan" and "channar" are derived from the same root. The phonetic significance of "ch" needs be researched. "ch" is part of the Malayalam words "chakuka", "chathu", "chathichu", "chathi", "cheetha", "chera", "chora", "chaathan", "Chaatham", etc etc. Altogether it portents gloomy prospects! Masgunan Mananthavaadi 09:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Please also research on "na" ( as in "naari", "naaya", "nakki", "naasham", "nashicha" )

Shanar is old name of nadar. u can read this link

Not all channars were related to Palm Trees. there were warriors also. u can refer this link. http://www.alummoottil.com. The chekavan and channan might have derived from same word chekam.

Daya anjali 10:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

What's 'chekam'?Masgunan Mananthavaadi 10:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I would request the aggrieved persons to read my posts carefully, understanding the varied information given. There is no mentions or intention of belittling any caste; neither Ezhava, Thiyya nor Nair. Yet, all castes go on seeing only superior things, and get agitated when information that don’t suit their taste comes in.

As to personal level of talk and suggestions of ill-happening for me, I think it doesn’t suit the quality of debate in this site. It may only spoil the reputation of the persons involved, further. Moreover, these are things that can happen to anyone.

As to my political affiliation, I have none. I basically believe that our politicians and bureaucrats are taking us all on a wild goose chase.

My agenda is different from anything that has been suggested. What I may propose is that there is a lot of negativity in the communication around here. I remember one incident in a local village around many years ago. One locally acknowledged Nambhoothiri of superior family was crossing the river. There were many Thiyyas who were having bath there. The Nambhoothiri’s companion said to them: Please move away from the path of the Nambhoothiri.

All moved away in reverence. Yet, one impertinent one among them said: Nee poodo ninthe aithavum kondu (You get lost with your un-touch-ability). I am sure many persons here would rejoice in seeing this dialogue. Yet, there are other grave factors involved. The talk is in feudal Malayalam. It may be similar to saying: Nee poda to one’s teacher or boss or some other social superior now.

Do not misunderstand me. I feel that all Malyalees can imbibe a lot of quality improvement. Not by being doctors, and Engineers, but even by being just drivers, coconut climbers, and other common man; what is required is a communication code that allows dignity in them also. Not just in Engineers and doctors. When there are doctors and Engineers in a community now, all that happens to the community is that it forces others to bow and respect them; others go down. Quality comes in being able to see dignity in others. I fear Malayalam and most other Indian languages cannot do this. It can see dignity only in higher people, whether they be higher castes or higher career.

As to dividing the community, I think it is much better the various castes leave their caste identifications behind, and aim for pure quality improvement. I do think that this reservation to public posts is making the whole nation sick. Remember that only few get its benefits; the majority suffer from the quality degradation.

Before embarking on any offensive talk, please read my posts completely and then only go on the defensive. Most of them have been lost from this page. Yet, there are in the link I have given in a post above.

I am giving a link to a writeup on Muthappan I did on a UK [site:http://www.ukresident.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30736]

As to more detailed answer, I will have to post again. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 12:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Read carefully before letting your blood boil
I did not expect the present level of agitation that has been generated over here. So, I think I will go over the issues carefully and delineate the points in a most detailed manner.

My attempt here:

As a person, who knows most of the districts of Kerala with varying levels of depth, and also having been exposed to the differing Malayalam dialects of the different districts, and also being reasonably good in English, with a more than average command over expressions, I think I will attempt at it.

When I first had my encounter with the southern districts, starting with Alleppy in 1970, as a young boy, there were a lot of impressions I had.

The Malayalam dialects

One of the first was the difference in Malayalam. In Malabar, there were two different Malalyalams then. One was the educated version, spoken by few educated persons, and the rest talking a dialect which may be absolutely incomprehensible to most southerners. For example, njalu oone oriyane keechu, will not be understandable to most southerners. The sentence I have given is from the standard uneducated Malayalam dialect of inner Calicut district. The southern versions were more connected to the official Malayalam.


 * The dialect used by people of kerala vary from disctrict to disctrict. The dialect used by peopl in trivandrum is completely different from it used in Alleppy. Use of annan and akkachi is very common in rural areas of trivandrum  while thats not all there in central kerala. chettan and chettathi is very common. while move towards north its changes to ettan and ettathi. in malabar ist becomes jeshtan/jeshattathi or chettan or ettan is  used. Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Overwhelming Caste feelings

Second impression was the overwhelming presence of caste feeling among everyone. Caste was a very vibrant issue in the southern districts. The impression I received was of a very ungainly competition between the Ezhavas and the Nairs. I did not notice this level of mental competition between the Ezhavas and the higher castes like the Brahmins, and the Varmas, maybe because they existed in wider apart compartments.

Both the NSS and the SNDP were seen to be very militant in their attitude to each other; and also using disparaging terms about each other. This type of mental competition was not there then in Malabar; for one thing, the Thiyyas had not experienced any political suppression during the British rule. Yet, the Zamorins did not give much opportunity to the Thiyyas, but the British had effectively disabled the Zamorin. Yet, socially the lower level working class Thiyyas were in lower mental compartments.

Even now both the NSS and the SNDP are not very visible in the Malabar areas, other than among persons who think there is political mileage to be gained in being identified with them.


 * maximum number of communal riots have happened in the district of kannur, kasargode, calicut and malappuram. eventhough muslim population equally strong in south, that much communal riots not occured Daya anjali

Educational quality

As to education, Malabar was comparatively poor educated if formal education was to be taken into account. Yet, what existed in the case of formal education was a minor group of educated persons. Now, at that time education was easily identified with a grand capacity in English. Thus there was a small group of persons, who were graduates, and were very much different from the larger crowd of persons. These types of persons are rare to find now. For, now education means having something called degree and PG degree, but with meagre capacity in English, and more or less no greater attainments in finer aspects.

Visibly different English

One very visible difference that I noticed was with English. Even though the educated persons were very less in Malabar, their English was reasonably good. When I came to Travancore, I encountered for the first time a strange variety of English. Work was vark, wash was vaash, Is was ees, and almost all English words sounded absolutely different.


 * The local dialect have good influence of English langauage used anywhere in the world. If u compare English language used ny malayalees with that tamils u will feel the diffrence which will broader than that difference in use of english language across kerala. Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Difference in addressing

Teachers couldn’t be addressed with a nigal in Travancore; only with a Sar for both you and also for He and also as a suffix of positional title. The corresponding word in Malabar was Mash, with nigal allowed. He and She were ooaru.


 * in many palces in souh and cental travancore like, Erunakulam, pathanamthitta, the use Mash is very common. This is just a difference iin meaning of the word nigal'. nigal has two meaning one to address more than one person which is the case of south while a person with a respect which is the case of north. ie. ni + avarakal -> ningal Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Honest bureaucracy

Next aspect was at that time; Malabar was reasonably honest, for there was a more or less honest bureaucracy.


 * this is totally wrong as each and every regions in the world have good(honest and trustworthy) and bad people. Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The terrible expletives

When talking about education, one remarkable thing worth mentioning is about expletives. In common Malabar, the highest bad word was Nayinte mone (Son of a bitch). Yet, when I reached Travancore, I found an immensity of bad words, used at random, just to show off one’s social assertiveness. Most of them are not mentionable in their original form here in Malayalam.
 * this is totally wrong as bad words are very common acroos the state, acroos the country, across the world ......Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Bribery as a lifestyle

The senior bureaucrats of Malabar till 1956 were in the Madras government service. Most of them were severely incorruptible; yet not because of some inner goodness, but that was the general standards. The first impressions that I had when I came to Travancore, from the general talk I listened to was that bribery was a common way of dealing with bureaucratic problems; and any one who did not practise it when he or she had the opportunity was an absolute fool and a simpleton.


 * I have anzered this in my previous reply of the same section. (this is totally wrong as each and every regions in the world have good(honest and trustworthy) and bad people. )Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The street-smart southerners

When comparing people, my impression was that the southerners were more street-smart, and more practical in their approach. They were seeing a lot of opportunities, with the PSC being in Trivandrum, and the general Malabar persons not knowing much about it, the whole crowd of educated and semi-educated persons in Travancore clamouring to get into it. Generally, in Malabar a government profession at that time was not a life aim for most persons. One of the reasons for this was that everyone could address the highest bureaucrat itself with a ningal, while in Travancore even the smallest bureaucrat was a Sar. Beyond that in Malabar, bureaucracy was not so vast in number.


 * i dont know abt this. however evrybody outside the kerala state tells same thing abt malayalees. Daya anjali 05:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The tumbling of the bureaucracy

Yet, I do remember elders remarking in Tellicherry area of the slow degradation of the bureaucracy after the British left, with now the Indian bureaucrat having no one to fear for.

The wide chasm

Next impression that I had was that on a general level there was no knowledge of Malabar among the common person of south; and in the same manner, the Malabar man was also having not much knowledge about the southern districts. The southerners were called the Statetukar by the northerners.
 * this is new knowledge. Didnt u hear abt sabarimala? didnt u hear abt Thrissur pooram? didnt you hear abt kovalam or munnar? thats too much Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The media

The Malayalam papers had different editions, and my feelings are that the content and focuses were entirely different. So that what was discussed in the Calicut edition may vary much from the Kottayam edition. Nowadays, what is written by someone in Mathrubhoomi and Malayala Manorama influences the whole of Kerala in one stroke, and more or less everyone parrots the same ideas from Trivandrum to Kasargode.

When talking about media there is this issue. When the first Trivandrum edition of Mathrubhoomi came out, I was in Trivandrum. There was a general talk in the air of it being a Nair paper with Kerala Kaumudi being a Ezhava paper. With the militant stand of these communities, one could even identify the caste of a person by just seeing what paper he was subscribing to. I do not know what the present scenario is over there now. Now the most funny thing was this. In Malabar no one carries such a feeling about Mathrubhoomi. Moreover, one of the main partners of Mathrubhoomi is reputed to be the KTC, which is again reputed to be a Thiyya family.


 * this is tottaly wrong as kaumudi is treated as left aligned newspaper and Mathrubhoomi as congress-sided in south. If you travel to Anchal and eroor areas entire ezhavas subsctribes to mathrubhoomi. Also many thiyya families of calicut and kannur subscribes keralakumudi.(if that was not the case keralakumudi editions must have closed already in that areas). Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Initially mathrubhoomi cnsidered to be nair newspaper when KP kesavamonon started it. Later Influence thiyyas and now have good control of the publicatiosn. Now a lot ezhavas subscribes it in south. Daya anjali 05:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Kumaran Asan

Now going back to the questions asked of me: I did not single out Mahakavi Asan for sectarian thoughts. I just copy pasted his name from the other article {Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)} where he was clubbed along with the list of Ezhava leadership.

The Malabar personalities

Someone has mentioned : Moorkoth kumaran, Moorkoth ramunni, Moorkoth Kunhappa, Swamy Bodhananda, Champadan Vijayan(Thalassery)

I do not know all the names. For, it is my impression around here that generally people do not talk much on SNDP-NSS lines. Champadan is a know Thiyya family name of Tellicherry. As to the Moorkoth family, I do know that they were Thiyya family from Tellicherry which gained much social and professional elevation during the British times; with one of them actually being an Indian flying officer in the Royal Air Force. He did even fight in the Second World War. As a Thiyya family, yet being in the superior government services of the governing British must have been a sweet experience, when compared to the common Thiyya of Malabar, who were at best not a higher caste. Yet, in one of his writings I did see mention of British racialism, but nothing about the subjugation by the higher castes in Malabar on his family.


 * With the comments on moorkoth family and chambadan family i conclude that u dont know anything abt the sree narayan movement in malabar . for basic study of the subject u can go to this mathrubhumi article.  http://www.geocities.com/guruforum/moorkoth.jpg. Daya anjali 05:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This can be like crash cource for u... Daya anjali 05:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The fisrt biography of Narayana guru was written by Moorkothu kumaran when guru was alive.His son Moorkothu Kunhappa written biography of Narayana guru in English, HIndi and tamil....Moorkothu Ramunni is a strong follower of narayana guru.... Daya anjali 05:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The first statue of sree narayan guru in kerala was built in thalassey, second in calicut inside sreekanteswara temple compound. then southern people started following this.I think u need to visit kaivattom sreenatayana matam and learn abt the subject more in details. also go to payyannur matam... Daya anjali 05:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Similarity of customs

I do not have any personal aims in this debate other than to express my impressions on seeing scholarly article containing themes which are doubtful. For, one can find a lot of similar customs all around the world. Yet, just by seeing them in other places, one should not bring them under the address of one’s own historical experiences. For example, one may find similarities between Chinese and Western Herbalism and Ayruveda; that does not mean its practitioners are from the same group. One may discern some similarity between Indian Tantric philosophy and Western Witchcraft, again the same issue.
 * i have asked so many questions to you ..without replying to that simply blabering something without any soul doesnt require any reply

Widening the caste boundary

If Kerala border were to extend beyond Kasargode, and enter much beyond Mangalore, there would be the need to again pass on all southern experiences to the communities living there. It is at all not required.

Creation of newer castes

As to caste, it is not dieing. New ones are being created. For the connection between ancient castes and vocation is dieing. New links are coming out. The new castes will be again based on professions. Yet, in the new scenario, for sometime, everyone will get a chance to change their caste as per the profession of their offspring. This will stop when the bureaucrats become able to reserve all government post for their own children. In a minor manner this is already happening. I have seen many government employee’s family cornering government jobs for generations. Even in the Medical colleges, many years ago, I did notice almost all of them being the children of government employees, with a few from Gulf based children.

The closing of gap

Beyond all this, at present there is not much difference between Malabar and the South in many aspect discussed. Bureaucratic corruption is rampant in Malabar also. Malayalam communication has become more feudal, than in the south. Common English standard are very pitiable, the English that comes especially from government schools are terrible; Women exist more terrible panes than in the south; either very low, or on very high level, never in a level of normalcy. Most people aim for government jobs, even that of a peon. The other option is a job in the Middle east, where again the aim is to garner money and come home to overlord over others. Generally Malabar Malayalam at lower levels is more stingingly feudal. Its effects can be seen in the general narrowness of roads, and unscientific designs of many things. And also in the demeanour of the persons at its butt end.

Another thing that is bound to come up is the general degradation coming to ‘Autorickshaw drivers’ of Calicut. Calicut autorickshaw drivers have a rare reputation of honesty. Yet, with the bureaucracy and the police becoming more and more corrupt, and more feudal in communication, it is only a matter of time, before they also become like Trivandrum autorickshaw drivers.

Simmering caste feelings in the south

What I find from the reaction that has come from many others here is that there is still simmering caste antipathy burning in the southern districts. In a haste to garner strength, any information that seems to be not in line is not liked. In recent years, with the issue of communal reservation gathering enduring strength, caste issues are likely to come to Malabar also. I hope it does not.

The other visible thing is the general attitude of disparagement to many vocations. The feeling that only a doctor or engineer or being a government employment is a good job. It is not the fault of the people, but of the language which degrades many good professions.


 * Thats only thing i agree with you. Also simply making some websites and writing third books(which nobody reads) also doesnt mean that they are good people and their job is the best in the world. It also doesnt mean that whatever that person comments about a subject which he is not at all aware of is perfect. Daya anjali 05:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 01:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

reply
U r not at all talking abt the points which i have mentioned. u r painting the diferences between the people of travancore and malabar here which is not the subject. and with the comments on moorkoth family and chambadan family i conclude that u dont know anything abt the sree narayan movement in malabar. for basic study of the subject u can go to this mathrubhumi article

http://www.geocities.com/guruforum/moorkoth.jpg.

This can be like crash cource for u...

The fisrt biography of Narayana guru was written by Moorkothu kumaran when guru was alive. His son Moorkothu Kunhappa written biography of Narayana guru in English, HIndi and tamil.... Moorkothu Ramunni is a strong follower of narayana guru....

The first statue of sree narayan guru was built in thalassey, second in calicut inside sreekanteswara temple compound. then southern people started following this. I think u need to visit kaivattom sreenatayana matam and learn abt the subject more in details. also go to payyannur matam... then ownwards u will stop abusing narayanaguru and thiyyas...

Thiyyas had martial heritage and it lost after the arrival of brahmins... its a known fact. if somebody spit from some victoria institutions that cant be changed.......

Some other links that can useful for u are : http://www.snms.net/disciplesmain.htm

http://stjosephshss.info/fstudents.htm

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/author/Murkot%20Kunhappa

U can visit sree narayana matams in Mayyazhi listed out in following webpage

http://mahe.nic.in/links/tourist%20spot.html

Daya anjali 06:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that I have anywhere said anything bad about Sree Narayana Guru. It may be pointed out, if I have. As to being a follower of Sree Narayana Guru, I think even a Brahmin can be his follower. For, what he said sitting inside a superior-caste king ruling kingdom and having the daring to say that he was worshipping an ‘Ezhava Shiva’  when the higher castes questioned the propriety of his sanctifying a Siva Idol, truly requires not only courage, but also extreme intelligence and wisdom. I do not think that any particular caste should claim Sree Narayana Guru solely for themselves.

As to the write up that contains a variety of themes, they do give a background to many simmering problems haunting the places; all of them do have severe connection to the caste issue also.

Also, please understand that this is a debate page, and not everyone who comes to write here will write the same things. Then there is no debate. Only a lot of self congratulatory sentences.

Also, I have been accused of being anti-Nair, anti-Ezhava, and now anti-Thiyya. It all has no meaning. Everyone is reacting as per their own affiliations. There are perspectives, some you like, some you don’t. But it is not right to tell others to write only what one believes in. If it is not liked, then write the other version; use that right. Only do not say that others said what they did not. And that they should not write such and such views.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 07:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

please remove ur content, Mr ved
This not a forum to discuss abt difference between the people of travancore and malabar ion detail... U can point that there is dieffrence so there could be dieference in cast also... so pls remove. and start a new thread and discuss there Daya anjali 06:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Reply
At least u apreciated Guru's vision and work to the society. thats a gud sign. But in many of ur posts u were telling narayana guru has no impact in north kerala. impact is invisible to u. may be due to the growth of comunists in that part of kerala. However it was guru's impact that have given basis for communist growth.

u shud visit temples built by guru to c the change that have done to the social spectrum there. Sree Bhakthi Samvardhini Yogam was constituted with the blessings of Sree Narayana Guru by a disciple of guru which has many institutions(School, engg college, TTC centre tec) in kannur, where a lot of thiyyas got employed. so the case of SN colleges in kannur, Chelannur and kasargode. so the case of SNDP Yogam College,Koyilandy and what abt gokulam gopalan who was born in calicut and is the president of sndp in chennai who is an ezhava/thiyya(as both are the same)u say that sndp is not popular in calicut and there are no ezhavas in calicut so who is gokulam gopalan ur a big fool who ever wrote this shit!!! Sreekandeswara Kshetrha Yogam trust has many intitutions under its belt including sree narayana samskarika kendram. Daya anjali 09:31, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

To User:Keraleeyan and user:Panikkar
I had no intention of causing commotion on this page. I came to the Ezhava page in a most coincidental manner, when I came searching for some caste lists. I found the writing in an internationally reputed website to be not fully informed.


 * Some say Ezhavas and thiyyas are different races.But this is hidden agenda by some vetsed interest to divide the community.The word Ezhava have derived from izham and Thiyya derived from dweep both pointing to island. If so, why are there no ezhavas in north kerala but in karnataka with the names billava and idiga which echos similar to word ezhava? Why idigas is karnataka also called deevaru ? Why edigas is "AndhraPradesh" also called Dhiyaramakkalu, name resembling ezhava and thiyya? How come both have same surname like thandan, thandar, chekavar? Why both have same traditional resposibilities/Jobs in the society, like toddy shopping, Ayurvedic business, martial art? If one set of people from Europe then their mother tongue might be completely different from those in kerala. Then, why those people not using that language, now? Atleast they should have still using some of the words of that language. (Its also remember that kerala's current population's history doest go back beyond 2000 years. Konkani community who started settlement in kerala around 1500 years back still using their mother tongue.) There is a place called "Ezhavathuruthi" in Malappuram Ditrict of kerala. Still ezhavas are called thiyyas there, why? In maladives history, it says the original inhabitants of islands were theevarus and they left the islands to cape camrin in india when 'outsiders' attacked the island. Daya anjali 06:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Now, why should I feel that the grouping of Thiyyas under Ezhava as wrong? For one thing, I had noticed the slow amalgamation of Thiyyas with Ezhavas in government records happening slowing over the years. Earlier it happened with the Medical and Engineering college reservation/so-called Merit sears. Then it started happening in the major government records.
 * have you heard about C. Krishnan, Kallingal Rarichan Mooppan and C. Krishnan(All famous thiyya leaders from calicut and kannur) who invited Guru to Malabar?

The problem here was at that time, the common Thiyyas had not much heard of the Ezhava (I am not talking of the learned and well travelled persons). And the common Ezhava had not heard much of the Thiyya.
 * the ezhavas(thiyya)s of north kerala might have heard about Ezhavathunadu and "Ezhavathuruthi", rite? The word Ezhavathunadu (means land of ezhavas) used in vadakkan pattukal to refer the land of chekavar' families....


 * Nambiar and Thampi names:: Both are surnames used by nair caste. But nambiar-menon names are not heard in south and nobody knows. (I am not talking of the learned and well travelled persons but common nairs). So the case of use of Thampi name by north kerala nairs. pillai is very common in South while thats not there in north much.


 * Thulukk, methan and mappila: All are muslim names. mappila is in north kerala. Buth in south, muslims use this word mappila to adress cristians. While mappilas of north doesnt knwo the muslim names like Thulukk, methan. Also majority of muslims of south oppanaa nd mappila pattu is not part of their culture(only used in competion that too hindu students mostly), while thats not the case of mappilas of north.


 * these types of differences are common in within same caste of all communities in kerala.

Daya anjali 08:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Then User:Keraleeyan speaks of the base community and common looks. Well, it is true. Yet, the wider truth is that all Malayalee do have a more or less common looks, as of now. As I did remark in one of my other posts, if you go to a interior government school and look at the features of the children, nowadays it is not very much possible to find out who is a Thiyya, who is a Nair, and who is a Brahmin. (Varmas are rare). I have to insert here an observation that any man who lives for a long time in Tamilnadu imbibing the essentials of the Tamil language, after some time acquires a Tamil look. Likewise, corresponding features changes can be seen when persons live in Hindi areas, Bengali areas and even English areas. Malayalee children, Thiyyas, Ezhava, or Brahmin, if born and bred in England in pure English social atmosphere, will acquire features very much similar to perfect English men and Women, with only the colour standing out.


 * have u heard abt mannan caste of south kerala(also called vannan in some areas). There r listed in ST list in bracket its vannan (of malabar). You know vannan and peruvannan caste  has major role in a lot of temples in north kerala and theyyam. but vat abt mannan caste? they dont know any folk art at all. their responsibilty is to wash clothes of ezhavas. with this can u say they are different caste. these guys should not listen this. they will ... Link.
 * ezhavas in south may not be knowing much abt muthappan and in their temples Theyyam may not be there. This is the case of all caste in kerala. Nambiars and Nairs in North Malabar, until the early twentiteth century held a prejudice that they were superior counterparts in South of korapuzha river. In earlier days, Nambiar women, like most women of Nair clans of North Malabar would not unite herself to Nair men of South Malabar, nor to Nair men from central and south Kerala. Therefore such superior-clan Nair woman of North Malabar(Nambiar women being no exception), could not pass the hills to the eastward and the Korapuzha to the south. It was a taboo and breach of which involved forfeiture of caste.So as there are no nambiars and menons in south kerala. That doesnt mean that they are not part of nairs. This type cast divide is there in each and every region in  kerala. have u seen `Ilaneerveppu' at Kottiyur Siva Temple? coconut is brought by thiyya members. they are called thandiyars and thandars. just like `Ilaneerveppu' performed at ezhava temples

I have seen more assertive features in children from rich houses, gulf-returned children, and on children of government employees. The earlier caste version is getting erased. I am not sure it is all in a positive manner.

So all Malayalles are increasing becoming equalised in the same base community so long as they live in Kerala. This statement has a very grave implication; which needs more inspection.

Another thing is consider a case of a Thiyya marrying a Nair or Pulaya or Brahmin. What happens is that, that person is entering a web of relationships in which he or she has no other connections. For example, if you think of Thiyyas in Cannanore, one may see that all Thiyyas can claim some family relationship with any other Thiyya. Yet, if one Thiyya marries into the other castes mentioned, it is an entirely new web, with no one to seek as some relative in the new links.

Now, this is or was the case with a Thiyya marrying an Ezhava. Or an Ezhava marrying a Thiyya. Over the years, I am sure many relationships have developed I am sure. Moreover, there would be mixing in the boundary areas of north and south Kerala.
 * A lot of ezhavas from kannur have settled in souther districts like Trivandrum for GOVT and IT jobs and in many other districts for running businesses like bakery shops(they are famous for !) have married to ezhavas in local area itself. People from Claicut/malappuram marries from districts like Erunakulam, palakkadu, thrissur...Daya anjali 06:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

These are some of the reasons why I proposed both the castes are different. Other than that, all the recent historical problems of the Ezhavas with the statutory laws of Travancore have nothing to do with Thiyyas. So, such mentioning is not correct. For, it gives false links to people who are not so connected. Moreover, I did see mention of persons involved, to be linked with the word ‘Kerala’, when actually their period of life were much earlier to the birth of Kerala.


 * Why both have same traditional resposibilities/Jobs in the society, like toddy shopping, Ayurvedic business, martial art?How come both have same surname like thandan, thandar, chekavar?

The problem of these writing is that they are from a southern perspective; which I found very awkward, not because of some parochial spirit, but because the perspective needs correction. For, this perspective will become formal history, when actually it is only partial history of the state known as Kerala.

Now, what is the problem in saying the observation that both are different castes having similar, not necessarily same, social positioning historically? There is no need to fight; there is no insult intended.

About Itty Achyuthan, I have no qualms about accepting the information given by user:Panikkar. Yet, I find the sentence posted by someone: This can just a dream 08:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC) as very funny. I am not standing here holding a Thiyya flag or come here to trumpet Thiyya supremacy. I am purely interested in correcting information, as per my observations. Once I did see a similar contest among some persons, some of them claiming that some of the major characters in the Vadakkan Patttukal are Nairs, and others fighting to show that they are Thiyyas. As for me, I would be happy to hear the correct information, their being Nair is not going to hurt me, nor their being Thiyya going to make me beam with glory. I personally have noting to do with them, and it seems pretty silly to feel that any caste connection with them is going to give an impression that I am also having inherent proficiency in Kalari.


 * Have you heard about Ezhavathunadu? The word Ezhavathunadu (means land of ezhavas) used in vadakkan pattukal to refer the land of chekavar' families.. The same surname is used by many families in south kerala like komalezhathu, Valiya mundakkal, Thalikkal etc. This surname is only used by ezhavas, FYI. Daya anjali 07:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

As for the observation about Sree Naryana Guru, on retrospect I regret that an impression that I see him in bad light has been felt. In fact, my admiration for him is more than any feeling that I have for most of the National leaders, including those connected to the so-called freedom struggle. For in the case of the freedom struggle leaders, the higher persons were acknowledged by the British, and most of them had lived in England. Such leadership is cosy. In the case of Sree Naryana Guru: here was a well-informed person, who lived among the lower castes, and the butt of disparaging comment from the higher ups. To bear the brunt of derision, that too in a feudal language, and yet maintain his equanimity and lead the people to liberation, necessarily requires a divine halo.

Yet, there is some thing more to be said about this. I may point to that in another post, as the words here are becoming too long.
 * just want to let you about Sre narayana guru and his inluence in malabar with details i got a from website...

''It is worth remembering that Gurudevan's first statue was put up at Thalassery when he was alive.The architect of that bronze statue was the Italian artist Thavarly. The statue was installed at the initiative of Gurudev's grahastha disciples such as Moorkothu Kumaran''.


 * have ever heard about Sree Narayana Guru football tournament, in kannur ?

There are other things also that need mentioning; actually much more. Those also I may find time to post another time.

All these comments may be taken lightly; there is no need to get agitated. I write with no ill-will. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 06:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC))


 * Your post on malabar travancore comparison is a little provocating. Good and bad is found everywhere. What you wrote is from your own observation which will have some amount of bias. I can't comment much on your post as I am not that familiar with Malabaris in general. user:panikkar

I totally endorse your comments, Mr.Panikker. There is good and bad everywhere. Similarly, when a travancoorean travels to today's Malabar, will find that it is a place where time stands still. There is no much development happening on that part of the world while the southern part of Kerala have gone forward by leaps and bounds. Malabar today is a backward, Muslim dominated area which is under surveillance for terrorist activities. Having said that, I would never say that all Malabaris are backward and terrorists. There is good and bad everywhere and we need to leave it like that.

During my last visit to Southern Kerala, after a gap of almost 17 years, I could see that there is lot of changes taking place. The Nair-Ezhava contest which Ved mentioned is no more there. I could even find an organization in Trivandrum to promote mixed marriage among the two communities (This is promoted by a former chief secretary). Of course, there could be simmering even now between the community leaders which is not the case with the community members.

One other point is about the 'feudal' language which Ved has mentioned in his article. Considering Malayalam as a 'Feudal' language and 'English' as a ‘fantastic software for personality development' is a concept I cannot buy. Malayalam is a common man's language, your perception of English being a more lenient language and British being better rulers is mere colonial hangover. May be the Indian kings would have been more hostile to the backward communities than the Britishers in denying education, but that doesn’t mean that they were better rulers. For the British, the whole of India were a slave country not just a community. An Indian King would have never done a ‘Jalianwalahbag’ for sure. Learning English cannot bring socialism to the country, most of the best ruled states in the world (France, Germeny, Japan and China) don’t speak English. user:Keraleeyan


 * I have requested User:Ved036 to remove the content that compares Malabars and Travancore. There is nothing wrong comparing the culture of two regions just like unity in diversity. its just sharing of knowledge as it seems he has more knowledge on this subject. But the main issue here is this is not the platform for discussing that subject.. What we can do is we can create new article and add/discuss there.....

Daya anjali 05:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a lack of noticing the fact that I was doing a comparison of two places as was my impression they existed 30 to 40 years back and way beyond. What I did write was simply an introduction to a longer theme.

Yet, I am happy there is tone of healthy debate here, even though there has been comments about my website and books with no readership. There are personal attributes, as to whether I give my books to another publisher or not.

Since there has been replies, I hope to come back with a mood of healthy talk; not with any vibrant feel of fighting for any caste or philosophies. I want time for that, as I am otherwise engaged now.

I do understand that when I did a comparison of the places mentioned, it did have a feel of not suiting this page. Yet, there is a link, for it does give a start to a particular theme for debate which is consistent with the people of Kerala, who also include the mentioned communitites.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 06:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I am billava from Mangalore. I accidently come across this page from a link from billava article. I really pained by your comments to divide ileva community by ur nonsence comments...Are you interested only in ilevacommunity? i assume you are from north kerala boardering mangalore.you must me aware about bunts and nairs.. why dont contribute to those article also just like here in this discussion? In the case of this discussion also, you can contribute there also even if you are ignorent(i assume you are doing the same thisng also.) Tulu war 06:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You are under a misunderstanding that I am representing any community. I wrote my impressions as I saw it happen. As for communities, I think it is time to think beyond narrow communities, and go for a more cosmopolitan approach.

--Ved from Victoria Institutions 06:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Poojya guruklE, aavu malpuga. Sir, cool. I have seen that you are editing only this page. Do you have interest in any other article? please learn the culture tulunadu, billava and bunts etc and contribute. please...since you are sitting idle in your office/home (i assume so because it looks like you dont have any work and doing a lot of researchs on this subject), you can do that sir. Tulu war 07:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Only thing i appreciate you is your command over English. however your comments are baseless  as i have gone through its reply by someone also. What you can do is to contribute to tulu related article where someone is required to do some research. As you dont have any work, what you an do is, you can do the same i feel. Tulu war 09:39, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Having good command over English doesnt mean everything like goo heart, good behaviour, respect for others etc. There are good english speakers in US, UK etc. It doesnt mean that all they are good and cultured human beings. Tn pillai 10:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Gentlemen:

I just saw the various replies. I would like to reply. Time is the problem. Generally when I write from my own mind, I can write around 10,000 words in a day, when typing on the computer. Just because I write fast doesn’t mean that I am idle. I write when I have time.

As to civility, I do not think that amount of insults that has been directed at me is comparable to anything I have said. In my emails also, I did receive an immensity of emails with low standard comments; may be they are still arriving. The spam filter is doing its job. As to the insults, I can bear it as I know what the standards in the streets are. Moreover, in my college days, I did find that this was the way the students were involuntarily being trained.

What I understand here is that instead of arguing a point with civility, generally the tendency has been to make personal attacks and comments. I think if a few persons around here can maintain the standards, I think this discussion page can be made to exist at a very intelligent level. It in itself can exhibit a lot of character.

I find that most of my posts have been removed. People put words into my articles and others argue about that.

In the early stages, there was someone constantly putting some paragraphs on ‘Toddy tappers’ into my writings; in so much, even the Administrator thought that I am the person doing the mischief.

Before going ahead, I think I need to think of a way to keep my posts intact.

As to caste factors, I must say that I am a person who has no caste feelings. In fact, when I first came to Travancore, when the caste count was done in the class, I did not know my caste. Actually, caste was not an issue with me. I was simply writing what my observations were. Even if I were not an Hindu also, I would have mentioned what I was under the impression of.

Similarly, when I mentioned the Nair-Sudra connection, again I did get an immensity of attacks. It may simply be understood that people believe in and argue for some sort of ancient superiority, when what actually is required is only a quality improvement of the present generation.

As to antiquity, please understand that a person to be born 20 generations hence is actually connected to around 2,000,000 persons currently alive.

I will give answers to the various points; yet, I would also like to continue the essential theme of my various earlier post; which at the most is stalled by so many commotions here. I will come back as soon as I get some time, in the next few days. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 10:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Refined Language
I would request the anonymous user to use refined language. Mr Ved, Please don't get taken away by the foul comments. We don't know what his intention is. user:panikkar


 * it seems like a lot of edits are happening between the anonymous users and registered users. its the responsibilty of us just to ignore those comments and move ahead with our discussion Daya anjali 05:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To anonymous users
please control your language. if you have difference in opinion please come forward share your knowledge and face critisism politically. please contradict someones opinion with your knowledge and proove yourself..... Daya anjali 06:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Reply to many of the comments
I have replied to many of the comments(related difference between people of malabar and travancore) of User:ved036 as he is not ready to remove the contenet even after requesting personally and telling this is not the right place to discuss that subject. I have not asked anyone put the comments on as per i like. i am ready to contradict anyone's comments if i feel i have the knowledge on that subject. otherwise i will simply ignore that. Daya anjali 06:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

use of the word malabar
I also want to remind user ved that use of malabar is questionable to rep the north kerala as the meaning of malabar and malayalam are same'. ie.. the kingdom of hills (Mala means hill and both the words bar(persian) and aalam(local) means empire or kingdom). malayalam means a region not a language (though now it has become to rep a language) Daya anjali 05:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Origin of this caste
Hello guys, just want to contribute here i found in older post and from some website the following content. somebody interested to discuss this.

DNA analysis may prove that today's O'Odhams are genetically related to the India-Indians. Arjuna, Krishna's companion in the Mahabharata Wars (fought on Northern India's Kuruksetra plains in about 3000 BC), was married to a Patalan (American) princess. Military forces from Patala, possibly even some O'Odham among them, fought in those famous wars.

How did I'Itoi's deification get exported to India? Because Isvar was once the religion of all mankind, It could have been a partial contributor to all worldwide myths about Siva, eventually becoming consolidated in the Indian subcontinent. I'Itoi earned "godhood" on his own merits. Also, as a Hindu supreme leader, he was deified anyway. After all, the O'Odham and the Hindus do share the same India-originated "Way of Life."

Hindu immigrants to this country often tell me that they see the Southwestern Native-Americans as long-lost brothers. They say that many Native-Americans tell them the same thing. If we use Sanskrit language resources, Hindu mythology, Shaivite practices and mutually identical holy names as measuring sticks, the kinship between Native-Americans and South Asians becomes easily verifiable, no matter what the "experts" say. Could there be a special political reason why "The Great White Father" doesn't want certain Native-Americans to know they're Himday?

Some tribes, such as the Huicholes in Central Mexico, even remember from what Indian seaport they left for America - Aramra in Gujarat. The Huicholes revere a part of the beach at the old Mexican seaport of San Blas, Nayarit, as Aramara, "Place of Origin of the Huicholes." Millenniums ago, Gujarat was called Jukhar. Juj-Kha is an O'Odham name for "Mexicans." The Navajos call them Nakaii (Nagas). The Apaches claim to be Inde (Indus People.) They worship Shiva as Yusn. In Sanskrit, Yishan = "Shiva." Apache = "Enemy" in O'Odham. In Sanskrit, Apachnan = "Destroyer." Another name of the Zunis ("Zoonyees") is Ashiwi (Azhuva?, "Way of the Serpent," in Sanskrit). Two of their principal deities are Shivani and Shiwanikoya. Zoonya (Zuni?) and Zeenya ware epithets of ancient Kashmir. According to Indian historian K. P. Chon, the Naga Azhuvas, perhaps the forefathers of the Zunis, were India's oldest ruling dynasty. He said that they ruled for more than a thousand years.

"The descendants of this dynasty are still to be found in the southernmost part of India in Kerala. They are even now called Azhuva or ezhava. The emperor Azi Dahaka, -- with two snakes around his neck -- was a devotee of Isvara." (Remedy the Frauds in Hinduism; p. 22.)

The ezhavas' ships were said to have sailed all over the world.

The Hopis worship Siva under several of his names, one of which is Massawa (Maheswa?). The Hopis are ophiolators (snake worshippers). Thousands of years ago, a famous Naga cult called Hophiz lived near Kabul, Afghanistan. Orginally, this nation was named Oph (Serpent) + Gana (Group; Family) + Stan (Nation). "Afghanistan" evolved from "Oph-gana-stan." The Afghan Hophiz snake cult spread to Greece, becoming Ophis. The Ophis cult was popular in the ancient world, even among the Christian gnostics. Needless to say, it also found its way to the American Southwest. We may never know the exact "hows."

The name of the ancient Hopi village of Oraibi causes me to wonder whether the Hopi nation was a famous stronghold of Saivism, known even in India. This unusual word lacks only the "Bh" in Bhairavi, epithet of Goddess Durga. However, Grierson's Dictionary of the Kashmiri Language mentions another meaning of the term, which may explain exactly how and why Oraibi got its name: "Name of a certain class of lower deities who form Siva's host..." One of these is after the local godling of some locality or tract of country. Special localities protected by him are looked upon as sacred" (p. 129; item 44.) Was Southwestern United States an important Shaivite holy center in earliest times?

Other ancient Naga sea-faring miners, traders, conquerors and colonizers who left their bloodlines and names all over the Americas and the rest of the world were the Ute, Yuti, Yutiya, or Juti (Jutes). The Northern Mexican Indians called the invading Spaniards, "People-Who-Came-Before:" Yutiya ("Judeeya"); Yuti; Juti ("Jodee" or "Judee)." In Spanish, the word is usually spelled as Yori; Yuri. "R" is trilled as in "City." "Y" often approximates our "J." Because of the Spanish spelling, we can't see that this word is really the English "Jute.". Why did these Indians believe the Spaniards were Jutes? Juti now means "non-Indian Mexicans and Gringos." In Sanskrit, Juddhi; Yuddhi = "Conquerors." Our history books tell us that the "Jutes" were "Northern German or Danish tribes."

Tn pillai 08:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont have any knowledge abt this. what u can do here is u can put this in the arictcle Origin of ezhava caste.

Daya anjali 09:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

An Explanation
There have been a lot of comments of varying moods on my posts here. Most of my posts are not here on this page anymore, with most of them having been vandalised/removed by someone.

This page is actually meant to bring in improvements and corrections to the Ezhava Page. I do not think it is possible with the current mood of taking offence to information that seems unpalatable.

There have been a lot of retorts to my comments. It is not possible to reply to them without going a bit beyond the parameters of the castes in discussion. Yet, since the castes are connected to the people here, many of their aspects also will need to be brought into the debate. It is only natural. Thus words cannot be confined to watertight compartments.

English & Malayalam

First to take user:Keraleeyan’s words in regard English and Malayalam. When talking about personality development on an individual level, I think English cannot come near Malayalam. For, once a person reaches some social position or financial acumen, feudal level Malayalam words can give him crippling powers over others. This type of ‘personality development’ English cannot lend to any of its speakers. The personality development that I was referring to was of a whole society developing.

Subduing an human aura

I remember an incident that happened around 1984. One of my relatives, a senior retired bureaucrat had a tiff with a working-class man (of equal age) on some financial aspect of some contract. Naturally this person took it to the police station. There (I understand) both were present. The retired bureaucrat in a seat and addressed with reverential words, while the working class man addressed as ‘Nee” and referred to as ‘Avan”. To say that these words do not have any affect is to be blind.

Later the police informed that ‘we have told him (avanodu) that we will punch his bone into water (idichhu vellamakkum)’. Being well ingrained in the security that English lends, I only hope that persons placed in similar position could tell the police with assertiveness that they can’t understand Malayalam, only English is comprehensible.

What created the aura and how it was lost

Now, this incident may be taken to an earlier referring of mine to the ‘converted to Menon’ issue. People who are kept at the lower edges of a stinging feudal language do exhibit a hue of subjugation, and possibly physical/spiritual ugliness. It is definitely not a genetic design, even though science has not yet discussed on this aspect of physical designing. If

Again, I did mention about the superior looks of a minor percentage of Thiyyas that came to be perched on them during the times of British rule. I do not think that the Thiyyas population has been able to retain it in the newer social circumstances.

The issue in that ‘converted to Menon’ issue, which I feel is the only rude thing that I did mention on this site, should not be taken as an offence, but the persons concerned should have the profundity to understand the powerful codes that created the issue. The person who did make this comment was only displaying the affects of the liberal social atmosphere he experienced from English and English superiors.

The imbalances

Again, it must be stated that the problem with unbalanced languages is that they can create severe imbalances in social relationships as the society tries to go in for liberated social designs.

Creation of aversion

Now talking about the suppression and aversion that the higher castes felt to the lower castes is not a bygone issue. In fact, it is a fact of everyday life even in present day India. Now castes do not mean much, profession and financial capacity means much. Recently one persons of superior social position told me that when he was standing in a market, a unfamiliar man from the labour class came and addressed him with affable familiarity, in a most friendly manner, with a ‘Nee’. It was only a display of camaraderie; yet, it was repulsive and the other man made haste to move away.

A different historical perspective

Again user:Keraleeyan has said about British rule and Jallianwala bagh. Not only Jallinawalabagh but also the immensity of police and military atrocities going on in our nation can be explained only from a very different perspective of history, till now not attempted by any so-called experts. A slight attempt can be seen at on this link.

As to the evilness of the British colonial empire, well what we saw over here was only a amalgamation of soft English systems as they existed in the midst of a feudal language social system. Even then, British administrators were far better in their approach to local problems, when compared to local persons who came to don administrative authority. Not because the former were better persons, but because they were living in a more liberal language system; one that couldn’t despoil another man or woman’s innate individuality by the simple choice of words.

The present day Malabar

user:panikkar has admonished with me (in a refined manner) for my comments comparing the south and north. I appreciate the tone. Thank you. Now let me say that what I wanted to say was that the Malabar which was once identified with the ‘offspring’ of the British does not exist. In many ways, especially in the interiors, it is creepy.

The spiritual parameter of development

Yet, talking about development, it is true that the south does exhibit the affect of huge financial investments. I remember when I used to travel regularly by my own vehicle from north to south every month, around the beginning of the 90s, I was deeply impressed by the stretch of road from Quilon to Trivandrum. Straight like an arrow, with mirror like finish.

Going beyond the physically visible development there is another side that is not noticed or noticeable to the layman. When one thinks of development, it is sort of visualising a car and a concrete house for everyone and all of the population either a doctor, an engineer or a government employee. This type of development is not possible.

The other indispensable development is in the quality of the people. And not of a people who are differentiated into a varying levels of groups, each bitterly envious of the other. Not of a group of persons trained in showing obsequious servitude to the highly placed and terrifying repression to the lower placed. This I feel can come from a good training in English. Whether it be Brahmin, Ezhava, Malayan, Nair, Pulaya, Thiyya, Varma, and much else.

Escaping the rhetoric

It is easy to demonstrate a passion for Malayalam. Yet, to the lower placed persons, I would say, ‘''do not believe in such rhetoric and gimmickry. Learn good English and escape the slavery that is encoded in the language of the higher ups.'' Let English not be the language of the rich; let it be the language of the common man.

The factor of honesty

Then about the factor of honesty. I had qualified by sentence with: “for there was a more or less honest bureaucracy.” I fear that it was not noticed. Bureaucratic honesty does have a great role in permeating this quality down the ladder. I remember an incident in 1984, when I was travelling from Statue to Kesavadasapuram in an auto rickshaw. The driver overcharged. When it was pointed out, he said to the effect: “Everywhere we have to give bribe; to the RTO office, to the Motor Vehicle Inspector, to the policemen on traffic duty, no paper, permit or certificate is given on time. We do not complain or have any place to complain. When we simply overcharge you a few rupees extra, you are raising a hullo bulla.” He did not mention that he was also bearing the brunt of lower levels words in Malayalam usually addressed to commercial drivers.

Innate goodness

Then I need to answer to another comment about innate goodness and English. It is true that there are good and bad persons everywhere; yet, crude languages can spoil others who come to bear their brunt. Speaking English does not make a man good. Yet, it saves him from the heinous codes aimed at him using feudal languages by others.

Candid observation and shallow research

Then about research. I do not do research if this word is supposed to mean reading a lot of book by so-called experts. What I have written here is simply what I have observed over the years. Yet, I must admit that I have also read much on a variety of themes.

Women and social class

I had mentioned thus: Women exist more terrible panes than in the south; either very low, or on very high level, never in a level of normalcy.

Around 1980, when I brought some young friends of mine from Travancore, to Tellicherry, they were deeply impressed by the assertiveness of the womenfolk (thiyya) in the house there. Yet, there was a lot of Thiyya women there itself who lived in the lower levels of assertiveness also. Even though, I had first thought that the higher assertiveness of the former group of women were connected to the now-redundant matriarchal system, I later did find certain other clear reasons for both the higher as well lower assertiveness of the differing groups of women.

Designing beauty

Then back to the issue of language; it may be felt that I am a person who has no knowledge of Malayalam. It is not true. I have seen the beauty that can be carved using Malayalam words; I have seen it in the immense film songs of Vayalar Rama Varma. When it came coupled with the haunting music of another genius called G Devarajan, the effect was simply divine. Yet, there are much more to be said of Malayalam.

Exceeding the bounds

It may be felt that this post of mine has exceeded the parameters of the context of the subject of this page. I had to say so much because the other posts demanded a explanation. Yet, I do doubt whether the Talk Page has the ambit to contain a wider debate on the various aspects of the subject matter. It basically can only debate on improving the Ezhava Page.

A copy to forestall vandalising

Because there has been constant vandalising of my posts here, I keeping a copy of all my posts here in this link.It may be understood that no replies or comments can be done there. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 12:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)