Talk:Ezhava/Archive 8

correct citation
Please change cite journal |title=Indigenous Knowledge and the Significance of South-West India for Portuguese and Dutch Constructions of Tropical Nature |first=Richard |last=Grove |journal=Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 30, No. 1 (Feb., 1996), pp. 121–143|jstor=312903 to cite journal |title=Indigenous Knowledge and the Significance of South-West India for Portuguese and Dutch Constructions of Tropical Nature |first=Richard |last=Grove |journal=Modern Asian Studies | volume = 30 | issue = 1 | month = Feb | year = 1996 | pages = 121-143|jstor=312903

(inside double braces). Thank you. 76.14.86.123 (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I have tweaked that citation and a couple of others in the same section. I don't see the need to link the journal. - Sitush (talk) 09:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

IP question
Its relating to ,the removal of thiyya from ezhava; these two casts are entirely different ,to prove otherwise what evidence you have?which are those books,on which you guys reached an assumptions dat both r d same? some pretending to b historians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.230.129.84 (talk) 11:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read the article--the sources are all there. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:39, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Article Validity
This article doesn't have any validity as far as this says both Thiyya and Ezhava are same!!! Is there any source which says both are same??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.213.28.127 (talk) 09:30, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are several sources, right in the article. There are also previous discussions on this talk page. Please review them, and if you have other sources that meet our guideline on reliable sources, discuss them here. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:08, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Liquor businessmen
The reference to "liquor businessmen" looks somewhat derogatory to me. In the caste system based on the jobs, they might have done jobs like climbing the coconut trees, to get coconuts primarily, and yes, toddy. But it could not be the primary 'caste-job'. I wonder whether we have any reliable reference to make sure most "liquor businessmen" tend to be ezhavas historically. otherwise I suggest we remove this.

Please share your comments and if OK please make the change, I am not seeing edit permissions for me for now.

As a side note, in the modern society, the wiki page on castes should tell the new generation that these were how things historically were, and emphasize on the fact that there is no difference between an ezhava and a nair if we look around now. Reading the first sentence, to me this is not the message it conveys. It would be much better if things are presented in a positive, non-dividing manner going along with our unity in diversity way of thought.

brnfvr 01:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hiding facts this article?
Vandalism throughout the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orginofezhava (talk • contribs) 09:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NOTVANDALISM. - Sitush (talk) 09:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Origins
I've just some a recent addition here for the second time. It added some content that was sourced to an anonymous website article and that rather contradicted what is said in the subsequent "Origins" section. The website article may be correct but it is not a reliable source. We'd need to find something better if we are to use the information and, because of our policy regarding neutrality, we would need to incorporate it into the Origins section as being another point of view. I'm digging around for more info right now because the Origins section is itself tagged (alternates sources for the info contained there seem to include this from 2013 and the Social History of S. N. Sadasivan, although SNS is himself not great). Hope this makes sense. - Sitush (talk) 06:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * S. N. Sadasivan is an Ezhava he writes favourable to Ezhava only?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orginofezhava (talk • contribs)
 * Please note that that is not at all an acceptable reason to reject a source. In fact, editors have been blocked from making claims like that. By your argument, no human is ever qualified to write about humans as a species, because we're all biased in favor of ourselves. We judge the reliability of sources based on their qualifications, where they publish, and their reputation in their field. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Section titles as comment
I just removed a bunch of "sections created by Originofezhava. If you want to make a comment, you need to 1) write in complete sentences with multiple sentence of accusations, not individual four word accusations, and 2) not just put them in section titles--instead, expound upon them in complete, clear sections, and 3) provide sources that support the changes you think should be made. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Were Ezhava Slaves ?
According to Slavery in Kerala a book written by Adoor K. K. Ramachandran Nair(page no.24) Ezhava were slaves.Please check this google book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Videofrom (talk • contribs) 04:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the first thing I see is that that claim isn't Ramachandran's; rather, it's a copy of a book from the 1800s by Rev. E.V. John. It does seem to imply that 1.36 million of the Ezhava (is that all of them? some? some only in Kerala?) were slaves prior to an 1820 proclamation by Rani Lakshmi Bai of Travancore. If we believe that John is reliable, this could be worth including. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I've never seen this claim made elsewhere. It is commonly found for some other castes in the region - Pulayar, Paraiyar, Kurava etc - but not for the Ezhava. They were lowly but not that lowly and I suspect that John got his identification wrong, as is so common among these early colonial sources. For example, see this (which is a promising source for other things Ezhava, when I get round to buying it) and this (which is top of my to-buy list right now because it is a fabulous summary-cum-bibliography that opens all sorts of doors). - Sitush (talk) 07:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Since the article was deleted I've removed the deletion discussion tag; the right thing is just to discuss it here, anyway. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:41, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Relation with Konkini People
Namadhari Naik of Konkini People is also known as Ezhava.So nexus with Ezhava and Konkini People are high. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Namadharinaik? (talk • contribs) 07:34, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Please provide a reliable source to suport that claim. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Channar is Oginal Konkini people ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elamsrilanka? (talk • contribs) 18:10, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Etymology
Ezhava is derived from Ezham or Elam of Sri Lanka. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elamsrilanka? (talk • contribs) 18:14, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2014
Thiyyas and Ezhavas are same caste, know by diffferent names in north ad south kerala. A recent genetic study from all regions of kerala was conducted, which gave the abstract that both have similar genetic structure. ref: http://chekavars.blogspot.in/


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Blogspot-hosted websites are not usually considered to be reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2014
Thiyyas and Ezhavas are same caste, know by diffferent names in north ad south kerala. A recent genetic study from all regions of kerala was conducted, which gave the abstract that both have similar genetic structure. ref: http://chekavars.blogspot.in/


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Blogspot-hosted websites are not usually considered to be reliable sources. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thurston
I have just reverted an edit that cited Edgar Thurston. I'm sure that this is far from being the first occasion that he has been removed from this article. The source has been repeatedly rejected on the grounds of reliability, across an entire swathe of articles relating to South Indian communities: he was a scientific racist, untrained in ethnography, unable to speak the local languages and reliant mostly upon a few Brahmins whose own biases he did not take into account. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * So are the sources that you have used in Nair. They are all from scientific racists who do the same as you have said. You have removed them in Izhava, but kept them in Nair. Why is that?Rabt man (talk) 08:02, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit Request
The Ezhavas are actually warriors and higher in caste than Nairs and Brahmins. Please add that, also, Nairs are sudras and are inferior to Ezhavas in caste so they do not have common heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balakrishnan Koran (talk • contribs) 16:03, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You need to provide a specific change you'd like to make in the article and back that up with a reliable source. --regentspark (comment) 17:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Too much wannabe stuff detracts from the quality of the Article
Seriously, the whole article has a bunch of claims of origin that have never been heard of before. Tiyyas claim different origin from Izhavas, but pan-izhavas in this article say that Tiyyas are Izhavas. Nairs are a whole different caste altogether, and had no admixture. In fact, Izhavas and other castes considered 'backward' status were not allowed a certain distance within a Nair, and a certain distance from the Nair's home.other It is also mentioned many times that 'Izhavas were the best of the lower castes'. The case that Izhavas were servants of Brahmins that were not given military functions is a total joke. Its as if the Izhavas are saying in this article that they wish they were Nairs. Seriously, this whole article talks about an identity crisis and comparison with other castes, as opposed to any complex studies on who the caste really was. Moplahs are not even a caste and don't rank within the caste system. Moplahs are seen as 'foreginers' in reality because they are partly the descendants of Arabs who came to settle in Malabar. Moplahs were not considered in the caste system, and if anything, they may have been considered high caste. This article overall seems very POV. Rabt man (talk) 08:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You'll have to be more specific and relate your comments to WP:RS rather than making generalised assertions. For instance, on the Ezhava/Tiyya issue, the text in the article is referenced to cited sources. Rather than just saying "Tiyyas claim different origin", you'll need to explain why we should not use those cited sources (if you have a reason). "It is also mentioned many times that 'Izhavas were the best of the lower castes'". I can't see the quoted text in the article. Could you pooint it out please? DeCausa (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Not one quoted text but many:

Parts of Article in which there is POV shown to say that Izhavas were the 'best of the lower castes'


 * "Pullapilly describes that this meant they "... were given kshatriya functions, but only shudra status. Thus originated the Nairs." The Ezhavas, not being among the group protecting the Jains, became out-castes.[11]"


 * "Thiyyas of Central Travancore were historically the highest-ranking of the "higher polluting castes", a group whose other constituents included Kanisans and various artisanal castes, and who were all superior in status to the "lower polluting castes", such as the Pulayars and Paraiyars."


 * "The Buddhist tradition of the Ezhavas, and the refusal to give it up, pushed them to an outcaste role within the greater Brahminic society.[11][12] This tradition is still evident as Ezhavas show greater interest in the moral, non-ritualistic, and non-dogmatic aspects of the religion rather than the theological.[11]"


 * The Source [11] as shown above, is from a book about Izhavas and to quote the book for your convenience "Izhavas and their Historic struggle for acceptance in Hindu society" by Cyriac K. Pullapilly (A Christian, and from a community that had large amounts of converts from the Izhava community, and in addition, possibly an Izhava convert himself due to the name Pullapilly which was given to Izhava converts). Also, the source [12] is clearly from a biased opinion. The source itself is [Joseph, George Gheverghese (2003). On life and times of George Joseph, 1887–1938, a Syrian Christian nationalist from Kerala. Orient Longman. p. 18. ISBN 978-81-250-2495-8. Retrieved 2007-12-09.]. "A Syrian Christian Nationalist from Kerala". Hmmm....


 * Regarding the Thiyya stuff, it is a dispute. I merely said that they claim different origin, and it is ongoing. But if you really want to know, Western Anthropologists are not always the most reliable. Gough's work (cited in the tiyya dispute) is considered very controversial as she did not know the language, customs, or proper history of the people. She took accounts from Izhavas, if you have read the book. But overall, comparing the Izhava caste to other communities makes the Izhava look like a wannabe community.


 * If you want more cited evidence regarding the wannabe stuff and specific examples where the castes and communites are compared, I can provide evidence from the article for that too as soon as possible, but I have to go now so...cheersRabt man (talk) 09:56, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Pullapilly, Gough etc are respected post-war anthropologists. You might not like what they say or their personal religious affiliations etc but we cannot ignore it. I've referred you to WP:NPOV and WP:RS previously, and more recently to WP:SPA because you are quite obviously here just to try raising the status of Nair and to diminish that of Ezhava - communities that have a long history of battleground activity on Wikipedia and of sockpuppeting etc. - Sitush (talk) 10:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh I never said anything about Gough in this article yet, but I have given explanation to why Puliapally is unreliable. Also, you are attributing motive which we do not do in Wikipedia. Please see WP:AGF. Also, I am not here to fight disputes between Nair and Ezhava. Like I said earlier, this article makes the Izhava community look like wannabes due to the heavy comparisons of origin from unreliable sources. I also am not trying to 'raise' the status of Nairs as the entire article on the Nair community is a public attack, and you with all due respect, seem to be trying to enforce every single negative opinion in that article. While on the other hand, trying to 'raise' the status of the Izhava community itself. Cheers Rabt man (talk) 06:23, 3 August 2015 (UTC)


 * That you think Pullapilly is unreliable may perhaps demonstrates your "newness" here, although you seem to have picked up some obscure policies and "in-house" stock phrases quickly! I think that if you want to challenge the reliability then you will find yourself at WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 09:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Toddy tapping and liqour business are the occupations of not just ezhavas but aso the Syrian Christians(abkaari)- Only a common ancestry can explain this. Many of the ezhavas converted to escape the brutal caste system in kerala106.51.20.13 (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2015 (UTC) Pullapilly tries to assert that ezhavas are buddhists, then how is it that they were/are hindus? they should have continued in their religion which is not the case, the CHEKAVARS of the caste had worshiped "Kali" and ARJUNA NRITTAM performed in Bhagavathi temple further substantiate this fact — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.51.20.13 (talk) 17:23, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See the information at WP:RS and compare with that at WP:OR. The article follows the former and you are engaging in the latter. - Sitush (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2016
Thiyyas are not ezhava

Thiyya

Belongings to Haplogroup L. Indo-Aryan caucasian Class (Unlike ezhavas of haplogroup C australoids,Nairs of K and Namboothiris of H) from central Asian Thiyassa valley of Tia-Shan Mountain Ranges lying south of Russia to North Malabar. Genetic Marker for this group in general is KLM9/M20. Ancestors traveled through Rajasthan where the people who settled were known as sekovars. They were probably descendants of Rajputs,who later became fierce fighters and warriors. From there ,the group migrated through the sind province,Gujarat, Maharashtra, and to southern India. The thiyya group acquired warrior qualities, martial arts, and acrobatic talents from the ancestors living in the Thiyyas valley in Kyrgyzstan and the pamir plateau ( north-central Asia). These class of people were great warriors of ever. Muthappan, Wayanadan Kulavan ,Unniyaarcha, Aromal Chekavar,Payyamveli Chandu, Kannappa chekavar,Unnikkannan etc belongs to this class. Thacholi Othenan was born from the womb of a Chekava girl Akkamma Uppatti,a member of old Martial arts tharavad near vadakara.

Unniyarcha,Wayanadan Kulavan, Aromal Chekavar, Koodan Gurukkal Chekavar who conquered Bakel fort from Bamini Sultans in 1370s, Unnikannan Chekavar , Aromalunni Chekkavar , Chandu Chekavar , Arangodar Chekavar , Kurooli Chekavar who lived in 18s in vadagara , Kannappa Chekavar , Chemmat Ouvay Chevar of Calicut mentioned in Keralolpathy, Thacholi Othen was born to a chekava girl Akkama Uppatti , Shankaran Moopan who was Commander in Chief of Pazhashiraja’s Army etc were Chekavar warriors of south India.

Another legend concerns wyanadan Kulavan, who was born in 1500. He lived in the slopes of Wyanad and was a popular thiyya leader. He commanded large areas of agricultural land. He was an expert in martial arts and archery. He owned agricultural lands in the plains. He was a kind and generous leader. His feats and skills are serenaded in the Ballad of North Malabar and in Theyyam dance. Sangam Literature mention about a great warrior Chekavar Andavan (Andavan=God) who saved his class from external invasion. Muthappan, deity worshipped throughout north Malabar was actually that great warrior. British India also pave great respect and worshipped him. You can see 20 Railway muthappan temples dotted along 307km long shorannur- Mangalore stretch ;Covering the entire Malabar to protect their massive and dream project going well. These class also have a great Buddhist History buried under present day Darmadam and other parts of north Malabar. These People brought the most Perfect Martial Art Kalari to Malabar. The 'vadakkan Paatukkal' is a collection of folk songs sung to praise the life and fearless characters of chekavars.

Adhithya Kiran Chekavar (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 14:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Subcastes
Please add information about Ezhava subcastes.


 * Channar (Southern Travancore)
 * Panikkar (Central Travancore
 * Chogans (Central Kerala)
 * Thiyya (Malabar)
 * Billava (Northern Malabar)
 * Ezhuvathi
 * Thandan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.245.177.106 (talk) 09:13, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Do we have reliable sources for these as being subcastes? For example, Thiyya is a synonym. - Sitush (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Thiyya is different from ezhava Manukoppal (talk) 16:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

History
Moved from User talk:RegentsPark
 * "Apart from the views based on legends and tradition about the origins there are many historical view points differing in the time and formation in Kerala. The unkown author of the Periplus Maris Erythraei, who visited Malabar about 80 A.D., mentions about commodities exported from Malabar. The coconut not among the 15 items listed in it. A Byzantine monk, Kosmos Indikopleustus visits Kerala during 522-547 A.D. and describes about coconut palm found in Malabar. Based on this fact, William Logan believes that Tiyans (islanders) arrived in Malabar before the time of Kosmos Indikopleustus and after the Periplus was written" How can this be of Kerala alone, It is how William Logan arrived at the conclusion of the period of origin of Ezhavas. --Challiyan (talk) 15:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Imo, the text is way too convoluted. Shorten, add a reference or two, and let's see. --regentspark (comment) 15:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Genetic studies
We do not usually bother with genetic studies in caste articles. It is something that has been discussed at various pages and the consensus has been that they are at best inappropriate. In the case of the one just added to this article, I note that the "driving force" behind it (quote from The Hindu source) was Sree Budha Education Society, which is a body that I think has links to the SNDP. I realise that it has been published by a rather obscure-sounding medical journal but I am not filled with confidence, nor with basing the interpretation on a general news source.

recently commented at some other article about use of genetic studies and did so in a manner that was much more cogent than I can usually manage. I can't recall which article it was but perhaps they can? - Sitush (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2017 (UTC)


 * You are acting like protagonist of the ezhava tribe with a zest. I do not understand what is the problem in adding a research findings that was published in a notable newspaper. The citation wasnt used to prove any other statements or theories. I too think that the driving force behind the research is what you have mentioned above, as they might be the funding agency. It is not the one that is driving me though. It was added as unique information that certainly involved the caste in question. I don't find the logic behind the deletion of the edits. it beats me. I would like to point out here that I was not aware of the earlier incidents that led to the current state of the article. I am on my second comeback to wikipedia after after a 6-7 years of absence.  --Challiyan (talk) 20:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Sitush. Ideally, we should only include results of genetic studies that have been published in peer reviewed journals and then cited in other peer reviewer articles. A newspaper quoting a single study is a very low bar for inclusion because the study itself may not have been scrutinized by other researchers for methodology (was the study methodologically sound) and to see if the results are accurately represented (for example, perhaps all Kerala natives, or even all Indians, have exactly the same gene structure as the Ezhava men studied in this study). I've summarized the results in the history section for now but, barring a proper reference, would be happy to see it removed altogether. --regentspark (comment) 21:29, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Sitush, for pinging me. I have to say that I know next to nothing about the Ezhava, so I can speak only more generally.  There are many issues here.  (i) There is the issue of origin in terms of culture.  The Ezhava are an ethno-linguistic group.  There is no evidence that the particular routes that different strands of their lineage took in their long migration from Africa (the original human habitat) to India had anything to do with the creation of their marvelous culture; at least the study gives no hint of that. To be sure, these different routes may have created different biological characteristics, such as variations in lactose tolerance, eye color, average melanin in the skin, absence of sickle cell anemia, etc, but it is a long stretch from those to the cultural practices that make the Ezhawa different from their neighbors. (ii) There is the issue of the reliability of such studies.  All genetic studies are based on application of methods of statistics and mathematical visualization to biological data.  Even when the data is reliable, the methods are not, or rather, they have an an error margin.  What was acceptable statistical modeling twenty years ago, may not be acceptable modeling today.  (iii) The data itself in such studies is not always reliable.  Take Chicken, for example.  The issue, of maternal, i.e. Mitochondrian DNA, origin of the domesticated chicken is a much ruffled field.  The origins keep changing, at least, they have during my ten-year stint on WP.  (iv) The cited article itself, is not a high quality research paper.  It is published in a lesser-known journal.  It was published in 2011, and in the intervening six years, it has been cited just two times.  Contrast it with 304 citations over 11 years for one of the chicken papers.
 * Along with RegentsPark, I too would be happy to see the reference to the genetic study go. Instead, I would be delighted to see some real contributions, such as pictures, of the Ezhava people.  Perhaps you could get in touch with the people who have put some spectacular pictures of the Ezhava on Flickr and ask them for permission to upload on Wikipedia, or look for video content somewhere else.  Best regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  22:03, 4 April 2017 (UTC)


 * There are some spectacular picture of Ezhava and Tiyya people in and the copy right of the book is expired. I tried to add one of the picture to the article and it was removed.--Challiyan (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks, F&f. It was your comment about the chicken situation at the other talk discussion that stuck in my head. I am going to remove the genetics thing from here. - Sitush (talk) 08:27, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading
The Picture of an ezhava girl form a famous book by Edgar thurston was added to the article and the Sitush reverted it back, I don't know on what grounds. He answers to me as if he thinks whatever I have been doing is to disgrace the article. Again when I quote Francis Day and his book published by Indian goverment at a period when the caste and tribes were subject of studies of europeans are alse reverted saying that one should not quote any references from 1863. you can see the revert here According to the user, Wikipedia should not cite anything beyond (so so ) years>  I would like to know on what grounds these are being done. --Challiyan (talk) 12:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't recall removing an image here recently. As for Raj sources etc, see Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 172 for one of many discussions concerning them, all of which have for years reached the same conclusion, ie: they are not usually reliable. - Sitush (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Ezhava caste being downgraded
The details given about the Ezhava caste on Wikipedia is completely false and biased. Somebody against the Ezhava caste has given such false information to downgrade the caste. The details of Ezhava are given below : Kindly help update the ezhava caste wikepedia information.

Radhika80 (talk) 04:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Material in the prior message copy/pasted from sites such as this removed as copyright violation - Sitush (talk) 06:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The caste-affiliated blogs you cited and whose text you copied above are not reliable sources. Please do not copy/paste huge chunks of texts in future - see WP:COPYRIGHT. - Sitush (talk) 06:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Actually, it turns out that the site you copied was itself copying from this site, which said it had copied from our Ezhava article of 2009. I'm still not reinstating the text because that version of the Wikipedia article was extremely problematic and, if I recall correctly, included copyright violations itself. You can't use Wikipedia as a source for anything on Wikipedia - see WP:CIRCULAR. - Sitush (talk) 06:32, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2017
117.222.189.172 (talk) 11:35, 11 May 2017 (UTC) The word "chova" (used in the article) is considered as derogatory and the ezhavas are called so only in a derogatory sense and hence it cannot be considered as a caste name. The term thandan is used as the caste name of an entirely different community that is unrelated to ezhavas. Certain ezhavas had and still have a title called Thandar. It is a title similar to panicker, warrier, kurup etc. So any reference to ezhava as thandan is wrong.
 * Please provide a reliable source for your two statements above (Ezhava is not a caste name, and Thandan is unrelated to Ezhavas). --regentspark (comment) 13:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Cyriac Pullapilly statement on Nairs
First of all, Cyriac Pullapilly never wrote a book on Nair hierarchy and few are quoting his notes to validate the hierarchy of Nairs. The statement "... were given Kshatriya functions, but only Shudra status, Thus originated the Nairs" is ambiguous and never quote everywhere as reference to Nairs. Nairs had Ruling class, Kshatriya class and Shudra class. A cohesion of all these class happened during the formation of NSS that doesn't mean that all Nairs become Shudras. The cohesion of classes happen to unite all Nairs and strengthen the Nair community by increasing the percentage of Nair community for political and social influences. Few has taken the cohesion as a platform to picture all Nairs as Shudras. Such people should read books like Keralaolpathi, Malabar Manual etc to understand the fact that Nairs had been rulers like Samoothiri, Koyi Thampuran, Rajah etc.. These histories cannot be changed. so the statement must be removed from this page if the editor is not frustrated and stop finding inappropriate links to type caste other communities. And appreciate stop spreading wrong information though Wikipedia. — Preceding Aryavams comment added by Aryavams (talk • contribs) 08:18, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Ezhavas in central Kerala, particularly in the district of Thrissur and Palakkad, is known as "Chon".
Ezhavas in central Kerala, particularly in the district of Thrissur and Palakkad, was known as "Chon." "Chon" for the male members, and "Chotthi" for the female members. Even though, according to government records, this group of people comes under the broader umbrella of "Ezhava," they have unique cultural features and probably a different history. So I wish you to add this name "Chon" in central Kerala, along with Chovans and Chekons to this article, so that this may look a bit more truthful — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethurajkr (talk • contribs) 05:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Please can you provide a reliable source for your claim. - Sitush (talk) 08:39, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ezhava caste being downgraded on purpose
Hello ,

I see that you have on purpose removed the original content given in wikepedia in 2009 and replaced it with false information from books and references which have no authenticity. I urge you to urgently update the information correctly as it was given in 2009 atricle. The link is http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisien.fr/EZHAVA/en-en/

The purpose of Wikipedia is to encourage and glorify the history of cultures but it is disappointing that you have misused your privileges as an editor to downgrade the culture.

Note : If Wikipedia information is not corrected, I will escalate this to the Chief minister of Kerala who is Thiyaa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radhika80 (talk • contribs) 16:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no need to go to the CM of Kerela. This is Wikipedia, if you find something wrong with the article, then you can edit the article yourself to correct it, especially if you have reliable sources you can cite.  ~ Chris Fynn (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Fake details about Nairs
Admin, why you have written about Nairs in the article about Ezhava community? And that too fake details. Which situation in Nair community was complex? In Nambudiri community, a child inherited only his father's ancestral property because Nambudiri community is patrilineal. Similarly, in Nair community a child inherited only his mother's ancestral property because Nair community is matrilineal. After the declaration of "Hindu act of 1951", new rule came, that every Hindu child should get the ancestral property from both his father's and mother's family, irrespective of caste.

'''Stop this Nair-Ezhava thing. Nairs are NOT related to Ezhavas in any way. Also Nairs are NOT interested in having any relation with Ezhava community. Its the right of Nairs.'''


 * Read the article together with WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:RS. That is why Nairs are mentioned. - Sitush (talk) 10:37, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Admin, you have written that "It has been suggested that the Ezhavas may share a common heritage with the Nair caste. This theory is based on similarities between numerous of the customs adopted by the two groups, particularly with regard to marking various significant life stages such as childbirth and death, as well as their matrilineal practices and martial history." Which customs are common in Nair and Ezhava? Please tell me. Bunts and forward caste Reddies of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh also have martial history. Does that mean that they are related to Nairs? There is are an Illava(Billava) community in Karnataka. They are also the devotees of Sree Narayana Guru. Why have not written about them in this article? NAIRS DON'T FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF SREE NARAYANA GURU. Cyriac Pullapally doesn't know anything about Nair community. From which Nair Tharavadus he got all these details?

In Nair community, the naming ceremony is conducted on the 28th day and it is called "Iruvathiyettu". In Ezhava community, naming ceremony is conducted on the 90th day and it is called "Thonnooru". "Illamnara" was performed in all the wealthy families of Kerala. Does that mean that Jenimi Nambudiris, Kovilakakkaars and Kirithil-Illathu Nairs are related to each other? NO. Vishukkani, Vishukkaineettam, Pookkalam, Sadya, Thiruvathira Vratham, Ekadashi Vratham, Makara Sankranti, Karkitaka Sankranti are observed in all the Hindu Malayali families. At the same time there are some rituals which are not followed by all the communities.

In Social History of India it is given that "Nevertheless, the Ezhavas in the eastern part of the Kanyakumari district ceded to Madras (Tamil Nadu) in 1955, have taken the name, Illathu Pillai which in no way a step towards Sanskritisation." You have not written about Illathu Pillaimaar in this article. https://illathupillaimarsangam.weebly.com/about-us.html

This is what I got about Ezhava community from some books. Even the divorce in Ezhava community was completely different from that of Nair community. In Nair community a man had full right to end his marriage by saying to his wife "I don't want you as wife anymore" and openly declaring that he has ended the marriage. Women too had full right to end the marriage by putting the mat and pillow of her husband outside the Tharavadu. Relatives try maximum to save the marriage but if both husband and wife are not willing to continue their relation at any cost then the relatives respectfully accept their decision. Neither husband nor wife was forced to pay money at the time of divorce.

From 'Children's Lifeworlds: Gender, Welfare, and Labour in the Developing World by Olga Nieuwenhuys' “An Ezhava girl, for instance, have the option of either saving for a dowry from her (nominal) wages or meeting educational expenses if she is sufficiently bright in studies. The idea of self-reliance has its impact on the amount of dowry an Ezhava girl is expected to bring, that tends to be comparatively low. Most of it is raised by the bride herself and with the help of credit revolving among neighbours and relatives.”

From 'Slow Flows the Pampa: Socio-economic Changes in a Kuttanad Village in Kerala By K. E. Verghese' “The craze for jewellery has greatly increased among Izhava woman. Young women save their earning to buy a gold necklace and it may take two or three years for their dreams to come true. In October 1978 a sovereign cost around 650 rupees, which was the highest price recorded for the yellow metal. The higher price of the gold, the greater desire for women to have it.” “Nair and Christian agriculturists told me that the Izhavas of the present generation are troublemakers and that they deliberately want to create tension in the agricultural world. The allegations are based on the fact that most of the communist leaders of the village are Izhavas. A number of Izhavas themselves agreed to this.” “A Brahmin told me that young Izhavas make fun of him whenever he passes by the Izhava Temple. They talk contemptuously of some upper caste people. A number of Izhava men are underemployed and they often assemble near their Temple. Or in the local tea shops.

From 'Global Encyclopaedia of the South Indian Dalit's Ethnography, Volume 1' "Divorce is permitted to both the genders in Ezhava/Thiyya community. It can be by mutual consent or on any reasonable grounds at the will of any of the partners. If it is the interest of a single partner, then the elderly members of the community in the locality after hearing the appellant and respond, give their verdict. Accordingly, the compensation and other matters are fixed. Among the patrilineal group the responsibility of children lies on father and among the matrilineal group lies on the mother after the divorce. However, nowadays, it is mainly dealt by the SNDP Yogam leaders and sometimes by the court of law. Widow/widower and divorcee(male/female) are permitted to remarry. Sororate and levirate are not a custom a, but not objected too." (Sororate marriage is a type of marriage in which a husband engages in marriage or #&xual relations with the sister of his wife, usually after the death of his wife or if his wife has proven infertile. Levirate is a custom by which a man may be obliged to marry his brother's widow.)

From 'Economic and Political Weekly, Volume 33' "Judicial decisions on the question of the conditions of divorce were often conflicting. An account of the customary practice of divorce among the Ezhavas revealed that if either party wanted a divorce, relatives and village elders were informed. If a compromise was not effected, the husband had to pay the wife 'Azhivu' (a "compensation for damage to the youthfulness and health of the woman"), 'Chelavu' (cost of marriage) and 'Ozhivu Pudava' (the 'release' cloth which the husband presented to his wife to mark the end of the relationship). Another form of divorce was that effected through mutual consent, through the "wish of the husband supported by the decisions of the caste assembly" and wife receiving a share of husband's property or 101 Fanams or a deed for 101 Fanams by the husband." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.246.107 (talk) 11:49, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I am not an admin and you are missing the point. You can give me as much stuff as you want about what the Nairs do or don't do but we follow the sources and your attempts at providing sources above do not actually change anything because they do not mention Nairs in any way that changes things - you are engaging in a form of original research. - Sitush (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I have written my comments in Nair talk page too. For example, I have written about 'Jathinirnayam' that it was written by Sree Narayana Guru in 1914 and he was an Ezhava. He has given incorrect details about Nair community in that book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.246.107 (talk) 12:26, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Who has written incorrect details in what book? Pullapilly? What page in it? Do you actually understand what this article says? It doesn't say for sure that the Nairs and Ezhavas share a common origin, nor does it claim that they share entirely the same practices. I wonder if you are misreading what we do say. I know for sure that this article frequently gets misguided comments from members of the Ezhava community, hence the notice at the top of it. - Sitush (talk) 12:33, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I was talking about Jathinirnayam(Jathimimamsa). It was written by Sree Narayana Guru. In that book, it is given Pallichan, Chakkala-Vattakkadan, Vilakkithala, Veluthedathu etc. are Nairs. It's wrong and no one had requested Sree Narayana Guru to write about Nairs. There is an another stupid book called "Nairezhava Charithram" filled with lot of fake stories about Nairs. If I write on my blog that Ezhavas were the people who came from Sri Lankan forests, will they like it? What they have written about Nair community has hurt the Nairs a lot. Has Shree Chattampi Swamikal written anything about Ezhava caste in his books? No. He was a highly religious person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.246.107 (talk) 15:56, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I am sorry but I don't think I understand the point that you are trying to make. We don't use blogs etc as sources, nor do we give any weight to the opinions of Swamikal or Narayana (they were not qualified, so they do not count). As far as I can see we are using things written by academics and published by academic presses etc. You are not going to get that changed unless you can find a source of equivalent status that specifically disputes the possible shared origin. The titles you mentioned in your previous message above do not do that. - Sitush (talk) 16:35, 2 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Sitush, why you are not giving importance to the opinions of Shree Chattampi Swamikal? He was born in this community. He belonged Poniyath Nair Tharavadu. From where did you get the history of Christianity? Bible. From where did you get the history of Islam? Quran. Similarly, you will get details of the real Nair community from the books of Shree Chattampi Swamikal. Bible and Quran were not written by academics. Accurate information are given about these two communities in Wikipedia. Then why wrong information is given about Hindu castes? Whenever Nairs share any information about their caste in Talk page you say "this cannot be allowed, that cannot be allowed." Very cheap. Kiriyathil Nairs and Illathu Nairs have no interest in having marital relations with Kaniyars. Though Kaniyars use the Nair surnames they are not at all related to us. Genuine Nairs respect every Hindu castes but their marriage rules are very strict and genuine Nairs will never change their marriage rules. Learning Sanskrit will not make anyone a Brahmin. To be a Brahmin a person's both parents should descendants of Maharishis. I hope you understood at least what I have written about Kaniyar community. You have a habit of praising Kaniyars. Kiriyathil Nairs and Illathu Nairs are Nagavanshis. We belong to Kashyapa Gotra but we are not Brahmins. Because Princess Kadru, the mother of Nagavansha, was not a Brahmin woman. We do not follow the message of Sree Narayana Guru, that is, "one caste, one religion and one God for all." We don't want to become the members of Yogakshema Sabha or Kshatriya Kshema Sabha. Also, we are not interested to get related to other castes. We are proud of who we are.


 * I haven't read your entire message. I stopped at He was born in this community., which I already knew. That makes him unreliable when it comes to caste articles. In fact, he was a well-known activists in caste matters, which rather proves the point as to why we do not use that type of source. I am sure you will find that all of this has been discussed before in the archives to this talk page - just look towards the top. - Sitush (talk) 15:47, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

It is better not to say anything about another caste. Ezhava and nairs may look alike. But they originated from different tribes. It is highly unlikely that Ezhavas originated from Nagas. Chekaun (talk) 17:23, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Thiyya and Ezhavas are different
Thiya people of North Malabar and ezhavas of South kerala are different Rahuldev1810 (talk) 10:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

They are politically categorised as ezhava post indepence. Yes needed a separate page for thiyya because of a different history / ancestral worship style / different customs. Vn2525vn (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

The publisher of this article needs to get his facts right before posting it. It is supported by pundits of the Thiyya community that it is not an offshoot or related to the Ezhava community. I request the publisher and Wikipedia to take serious note of this belittling of a major community that has contributed to the country and world by calling it an offshoot or a community that goes by another title in the southern region of Kerala. This article has to be taken off the Wikipedia site with immediate effect. Shailendran Oyittey Murkoth (talk) 07:00, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Enathinatha nayannar
Enathinatha nayannar, chola general is said to be ezhava channar in periyapuranam, a chola period Tamil work. Chekaun (talk) 17:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The Periya is not a reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 12:51, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Enathinatha Nayannar, a saivaite saint was called in Periya Puranam as Ezha Kula Channar. Periya Puranam is a secondary source as it was a biography written by Sekkizhar , a vellala about 63 saints who belonged to different clans or castes. Why can’t we add the information in this article? Chekaun (talk) 14:26, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * See WP:HISTRS. &#x222F; WBG converse 16:07, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Chekaun, Periya puranam is a poem from the twelfth century, a literary embellishment of earlier hagiographies of the Saiva saints — see our article Periya Puranam. A work that's so old, and is a poem, cannot be considered a secondary source, or a reliable source. Please use modern academic sources, and, as Godric says, look at WP:HISTRS. Bishonen &#124; talk 16:13, 6 January 2019 (UTC).

Modern Asian Studies and Thomas Nossiter
A journal of impact factor 0.25 is given too much importance and it is used to substantiate just a claim and words of an economist turned historian is given too much importance. Chekaun (talk) 12:53, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Why? And the factor is now over 0.44 and was't 0.25 when the article was written. I think you're misunderstanding WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 12:55, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

SOME FACTS ABOUT EZHAVA COMMUNITY WHICH HAS NOT BEEN HIGHLIGHTED
1. Largest number of Ayurvedic Physicians in  traditional Kerala belonged to Ezhava Community. This could be due to their association with Budhism which prevailed in Kerala till 6th or 7th century AD when Brahminical Hinduism gradually started gaining upper hand

2. Many Ezhava families traditionally learned Sanskrit. There were many Sanskrit scholars in Ezhava community

3. As per Shiva puraanam, Ezhavas were Kshatriyas.

4. Though a good number of Ezhavas were small peasants, there were many Ezhava families with extensive land holdings and wealth. Alumoottil family of Central Travancore was the wealthiest family of Travancore after the Royal family. In Malabar, Madathil Mooppans, a Thiyya family, was the wealthiest after the Zamorins- the royal family of Malabar

5. Ezhavas, in reality , comprised all the four Varnas of Brahmins, Kshatriya,Vaisyas and Shudras in the traditional society. There were Thanthric and priestly class ( a reminscant, probably of their Budhist past), Warriors & Local Chieftains. Traders, especially those traded in agricultural produce, including export which Kerala was famous for.And many workers in Coir making & weaving ( Shudras ). However, due to their resistance to the invasion of Brahminical Hinduism, they were given a lower status. Or it could also be due to the diverse occupational pattern of the community which made it practically difficult to classify as Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya or Shoodra.

( Sources - Vishvavijnaana Kosham ( Encyclopedia ) by Govt of Kerala, Kerala History by Velayudhan Panikkasseri, P K Gopalakrishnan, Sadanandan Vaidyar , and many other books on Histroy of Kerala ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.200.29.75 (talk) 17:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

History of thiyya
Please provide citations about history of thiyya of North malabar. TIME LINE OF THIYYA HISTORY in their belief system. Non dogmatic - ancestral worship / tribal leader worship - budhism - brahmanism gets mixed up - entire narrative changes - present day Vn2525vn (talk) 12:21, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Thiyya is wrongly defined in Wikipedia, which should be corrected.

Thiyya community is thickly populated in Kannur, Kasargod, Kozhikode, Wayanad & Malapuram districts of Kerala state ( North Malabar area under British rule before independence) and Mahe of Pondicherry state  ( French occupied area before independence) of India and spread to other parts of India and abroad. Religion of Thiyya community is Hindu.

The name of Thiyya community has also been spelled by some people  as Thiya, Thiyyas, Thiyyan, Thiyyer , Tiyya and Tiya.

Thiyya community is not having any other related community or sub caste or Thiyya is not a sub caste of any other caste in Kerala or Pondicherry or any other state in India.

The customs, rituals, worships, gods & goddesses, marriage customs and social status of Thiyya community are peculiar and do not match with any other caste in India. Thiyya community do not give or take dowry during their marriage. Most of the Thiyya families have their own place of worship ( Kavu or Temple) and their own different gods and goddesses and its Thiyya poojaries to perform rituals. In each Kavu or temples of Thiyya community, there may be 3 to 39 nos. of different Gods and Goddesses in the form of Theyyam. For example, Theyyams are performed every day at Parassinikadavu Madappura in Kannur. It is called Muthappan theyyam ( Vellattam and Thiruvappan ) is worshipped there. In other Kavu or temples of Thiyya community Theyyams are performed once in a year only,  starting from 27th October ( 10th of Tulam Month of Malayalam era) till June of every year, but there will be daily pooja in all Kavu. Other example, at Konoth Kavu, at Thottada, Kannur there are 3 Theyyams, named Kuttichathan, Chamundi & Gulikan. And another example, in Kalarivattam or Kalariyadath Kavu at Chala, Kannur is having 39 nos of different theyyams, perfumed or worshipped during February, every year and it lasts for 3 days. In Kottali kavu, Kannur, there are about 8 different Theyyams worshipped there. In North Malabar area of Kerala and in Mahi of Pondicherry, there are so many such Kavu or Temples of Thiyya community and at each Kavu there are number of different gods and goddesses are worshipped in the form of Theyyam and thus called Gods own country. There is no idol in these Temple or Kavu like any other temples of Hindu. Brahmans has no role in these kavu or temples. All daily poojas are performed by Thiyya poojari only.

Theyyams in these Kavu or temples are performed by the communities called Malayar, Vannan, PeruVannan, Munnoottan ete. There are categories among Theyyams allotted to these communities to perform. Cloth washing to Thiyya community is the right of Vannan community. Rights for hair cut, shaving , certain rituals after birth and death are performed by KavuThiyya community for Thiyya community.

Earlier, Thiyya community has their own ritual for diverse of their marriage relationships, which was approved by Indian judicial system, recently. Earlier, there used to have a Kazhakappura (dicesion making place) in each Thiyya tharavad or family in where, all disputes among the family members or out side families  are settled there in these kazhakapura by the karanavers ( respectable elders ) of the family.

Earlier, there were 8 illam system among Thiyya community.

In Thiyya community, people are found in various jobs like King, Ministers, soldiers, land owners and agricultural cultivators , small scale industrial owners and workers, business men, quarry owners and workers, liquor  or toddy manufactures and workers, Professionals like Engineers, advocates, Collectors, Magistrates, teachers, doctors or vaidyars, Vishaharis, Poojaries, Kalari gurus or teachers etc..

For example, Mannanar Raja was the Thiyya King, ruled north Kerala till 1905, before taking over his kingdom by British, because of no successor for his kingdom. Sri Pinarayi Vijayan, Honourable Chief Minister of Kerala belongs to Thiyya community. There was Thiyya regiment, under French army in Mahi. Civil administrative incharge of Kannur area, under British Malabar was from Kanoth family or tharavad of Thottada was belongs to Thiyya community. Mahi Mayor during French rule was from Thiyya community.

Thiyya community has been listed under Other Backward Classes of Kerala state and Pondicherry state as per Mandal Commission report OBC list at sl. no. 185 and state list sl. no. 14 of Kerala state and sl. no. 222 and state list sl. no.221of Pondicherry state, vide Ministry of social welfare resolution, Government of India no.12011 / 68 / 93 BCC  ( C), dated 10th September 1993.

Government of India have had under consideration the judgment of the Supreme Court dated 16.11.92 in the case of Indira Sawhney and others Vs Union of India and others ( No 930 of 1990) relating to reservation of 27% vacancies in civil posts and services under the Government of India in favour of Other Backward classes OBCs.

The OBCs list was published for  the purpose of the aforesaid reservation as per orders of Government of India issued vide O.M no.36012 / 22 /93 –ESIL (CST) of 8th September 1993 by the Ministry of Personal, Public Grievances & Pensions                   ( Department of Personal & Training).

Later on the Thiyya or Thiya community has also listed under OBC in Delhi state and Maharashtra state also.

Later on, In Kerala state OBC list, even though prepared in alphabetical order, the Thiyya community name has been placed wrongly at alphabet “ I “ at sl. no 21, which is highly objectionable. Rest all other caste names in that list are placed in alphabetical order. Thiyya should be placed at alphabet “ T “ in the OBC list of Kerala.

In Wikipedia, definition of Thiyya has been wrongly given, which is also to be corrected. Ezhava community has no relation with Thiyya community of Malabar  region in any respect. Customs, social status, rituals, marriage, worship etc of Ezhava community  are no where related to Thiyya community. Ezhava community is having dowry system in their marriage in south Kerala. Both the communities are 2 different castes of 2 different region of Kerala. Ezhava is listed at sl. no. 44 and Thiyya is listed at sl. no.185 of Mandal commission report and OBC list of Government of India list for Kerala state and in Pondicherry state Thiyya is at sl. no 222 and Ezhava or Illuvan or  Irulas at  49 and  at 73 and thus Thiyya and Ezhava are 2 different communities, 1 from  Malabar region  & the other from south Kerala.

Conclusion:

Definition of Thiyya in Wikipedia should be corrected. Thiyya community has no relation with Ezhava community. It should be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.114.235.238 (talk) 11:16, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Ezhava and thiyyas could be different. But there are certain similarities too. Both Ezhavas and thiyyas used chekavar surnames (itty achuden, komalezhathu chekavar). Both had martial traditions. Enathinatha Nayannar, chola general was an Ezhava Channar. Both had toddy tapping as occupation. Both have Ayurvedic knowledge . Both have separate priests - Ezha vathy and kavuthiyya. Southern Ezhava also have Illam classification like thiyyas. Ezhavas are seen in the land ruled by ancient cheras. Cheras were called as villavars in Tamil inscriptions. Villavar or Billava is only seen in Tulu Nadu and northern Kerala now. So the original villavars are Ezhavas or mixed up with ezhava considering present status of Billava. So these three communities ezhava thiyya Billava may be from the same tribe only. But since they were ruled by different kingdoms , their practices will look different. Chekaun (talk) 17:17, 12 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The long screed above is pointless because there is no sourcing, other than for the stuff about the OBC list. You're both engaging in original research and the issues relating to Thiyya vs Ezhava have been dealt with many times over the last decade or more, always with the same outcome. The article as it currently exists reflects that outcome. - Sitush (talk) 12:55, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Definition of Thiyya in Wikipedia should be corrected. Thiyya community has no relation with Ezhava community. It should be corrected. Sukeshthazhathuveettil (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Chekavar
The Chekavar are discussed in Ezhava and appear to be a subcaste or alternative name. Doug Weller talk 18:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * We quite often have separate articles for subcastes where sufficient information exists for them to be notable in their own right and they are indeed verifiable as subcastes rather than being synonyms. - Sitush (talk) 00:25, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The source describes them, spelled Chekavan, as another name for Eshavan. That's why I proposed the merger. Chekavar says also known as Thiyyas, as does this article. Doug Weller  talk 13:19, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, yes. I was merely pointing out for the benefit of the caste pov-pusher who has been hovering around this and other articles. They've been blocked now anyway. - Sitush (talk) 13:23, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Positive Discrimination/Fixing Links
Okay, this article is a mess and generally speaking I'm not wading into it. However I feel the need to point out that the article referred to "positive discrimination" a phrase choice that caught my eye and confused me. Using the term positive discrimination here reeks of POV pushing. I checked the references to see if they use the phrase (cause that would be maybe a bit more understandable), but reference 42 just goes to a generic news page (I'm not sure how to fix that), while reference 43 doesn't use the phrase at all. As such I've changed it to "Affirmative Action" which seems less POV and more in line with linking to another article on the wiki. Now, how does one go about fixing the reference link cause I found the actual article cited (https://www.news18.com/news/india/thiyyas-to-move-sc-against-government-order-439733.html), but I don't want to break the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lord0fHats (talk • contribs) 16:51, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You can edit the page and replace the url. I've fixed it for you.--regentspark (comment) 19:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Positive discrimination is the term used outside the US, and notably in the UK. Indian articles tend to align with the UK, if only due to the historic colonial period (hence ddmmyyyy dates etc). - Sitush (talk) 13:25, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Different Communities
Even Thiyya and Ezhava are separate articles in Malayalam Wikipedia itself with solid proof, and OBC list of Kerala govt also saying the same fact. I think, it is better to create a separate page for Thiyya as in Malayalam Wikipedia with solid and reasonable reference and remove the re-directions to this article from the word related Thiyya. -Rajesh K Odayanchal (talk) 09:47, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Anybody can verify the reason form these references itself, Its already given in the article!!   Rajesh K Odayanchal (talk) 11:02, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Just for starters, on this language version of Wikipedia, neither sources from the British Raj/East India Company era nor modern newspapers are considered to be reliable for statements about castes. User:Sitush/CasteSources has some background to this consensus. Also, legal rulings are usually considered to be primary sources and we are not qualified to interpret them or the extent of their impact, nor to ascertain whether they have been superseded. The situation may be different at the Malayalam version of Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 05:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thiyya marriage custom
Thiyya marriage custom is this

The South Malabar Tiyan bridegroom, dressed as if for a wrestling match, with his cloth tied tight about his loins, carries a sword and shield, and is escorted by two companions similarly equipped, dancing their way along. The Izhuvan does not carry a sword under any circumstances. The chief feature of his wedding ceremony is a singing match. This, called the vatil-tura-pattu, or open the door song, assumes the form of a contest between the parties of the bridegroom and bride. The story of Krishna and his wife Rukmini is supposed to be alluded to. We have seen it all under slightly different colour at Conjeeveram. Krishna asks Rukmini to open the door, and admit him. She refuses, thinking he has been gallivanting with some other lady. He beseeches ; she refuses. He explains, and at length she yields. The song is more or less extem- pore, and each "side must be ready with an immediate answer. The side which is reduced to the extremity of having no answer is beaten and under ignominy. Marriage is strictly forbidden between two persons belonging to the same illam. The bride and bridegroom must belong to different illams. In fact, the illams are exogamous. The following formula is repeated by the headman of the bride's party. Translated as accurately as possible, it runs thus. "The tara and changati of both sides having met and consulted ; the astrologer having fixed an auspicious day after examining the star and porutham ; permission having been obtained from the tara, the relations, the illam and kulam, the father, uncle, and the brothers, and from the eight and four (twelve illams) and the six and four (ten kiriyams) ; the conji and adayalam ceremonies and the four tazhus having been performed, let me perform the kanjikudi ceremony for the marriage of .... The son of. . . . With .... Daughter of .... In the presence of muperium. ” - Castes and Tribes of Southern India (Vol - 7) by British museologist Edgar Thurston (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Thurston) (1855-1935)

Please add. Kalangot (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

May i add this? Kalangot (talk) 03:45, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2020
Those information box is unnecessary. Caste page of other castes does not follow this format KZbot (talk) 07:29, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It's used on several articles. The infobox was added last week so you are within your right to request WP:BRD if you oppose infoboxes, I will however leave this request open if someone else wants to comment about whether it is useful. It is unsourced and some of the information not directly verified in body. Pinging . – Thjarkur (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Done, I left the image. I am myself not opposed to an infobox but I would request inline citations in it. – Thjarkur (talk) 00:44, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2020
replace They are the largest Hindu community in Kerala constituting 21.6% of entire kerala population to They are the largest Hindu community in Kerala constituting 21.6% of entire Kerala population Tsla1337 (talk) 22:21, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done --99v (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Cherukudi Mattuvayal Tharawad (ചെറുകുടി മാട്ടുവയല്‍ മാളിക).jpg
 * Kallumburath Thiyyar Tharawad.jpg

File:Salt_Sipoys_in_British_Indian_Force.jpg
There is no proof suggesting Salt Sipoys British force were exclusively Ezhavas. Therefore, it is misleading to use this image in this article. --99v (talk) 12:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi ,

99v, it is thiyyar who were employed as salt sipoys in malabar. they were few in number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othayoth shankaran (talk • contribs) 14:14, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As I have already told you, Wikipedia is not a place for your Original Researches. --99v (talk) 18:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Personal Attack
User:Othayoth shankaran is continuously attacking me personally using derogatory and racist caste names as he had done here and here. Let me again remind him that name-calling and insulting other editors is seen seriously in Wikipedia. Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans. @Othayoth shankaran: Since you have already mentioned on my talk page that you don't like Ezhavas, I suggest you stay away from this article because you have already agreed that you cannot be neutral on the subject. --99v (talk) 18:54, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Thiyya wikipedia
I request the need of a Thiyya wikipedia page for better recording the culture and history of thiyya ethnic group from Malabar.There are even Menon, Nambiar ,Pilla , Kaimal pages even they are all belongs to Nair.

I request for the relaxation of protection in thiyya page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othayoth shankaran (talk • contribs) 09:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose There is no need of a separate Thiyya page since Thiyya is an alternative name for Ezhava. - 99v (talk) 11:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * This issue has been discussed to death and is why pretty much every alternate spelling of Thiyyar redirects to this article. A lot of sockpuppets and off-wiki canvassing has also resulted in editing restrictions being imposed at various places to limit the disruption. - Sitush (talk) 05:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Etymology
I came to notice that some sourced content I added here was removed by User:Othayoth shankaran. I don't know why he would think that information is disgraceful to the community. To be clear, the content I added states clearly that they were the opinions of two people, one is Sree Narayana Guru, leader of Ezhava community and another one is A. Sreedhara Menon, a well-known historian. In his edit summary he has personally attacked calling me 'converted christian' a nadar or channar vandal. I don't know whether you are a new user in Wikipedia, but I have to tell you that your act is against Wikipedia policies. Please take a moment to read No personal attacks. Let's just stop calling names and focus on adding quality content to Wikipedia. The content I initially added is given below which anyone can review or verify the sources. If someone has any objection regarding the factual accuracy of the content he or she can share his/her views on this page. You could also bring reliable academic sources which refute the opinion of Narayana Guru and Menon. I am not planning to re-add the content until consensus was reached here and that is how Wikipedia works.

Sree Narayana Guru, who was the spiritual leader of the Ezhavas, argues that the term Ezhava is not a caste name but derived from the term Sinhalan meaning that Ezhavas came from Sri Lanka. According to A. Sreedhara Menon, Ezhavas and Thiyyas are descendants of the Channar colonists from Ceylon. He argues that the honorific title Channar assumed by certain Ezhava families also supports this interpretation. He also pointed out that Sinhalese tradition has recorded an event when Sinhala people were forced to evacuate the island after the invasion of the island by Chola kings in third or second centuries of BCE.

--99v (talk) 08:42, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi, This is not a relevent information , whether it's from narayana guru or from some other , narayana guru was not a historian, he is a spiritual leader who united the community , he might have used some other things , there are numerous comments made by many in ezhava , all these cannot be included. do you believe that all these 21% of kerala population came from sri lanka via some ships or something ? Since the community is called as billava,chekavar,thiyya,thandan,chovans and ezhava, how come you can call ezhava from lanka ? In counter to these sridhara menon and others many articles have also published by various historians and community leaders during those 1900s itself ,one is Kambil Anantha Master's works questioning this.

Hope makes things clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othayoth shankaran (talk • contribs) 10:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reply. I would like to point out that whether "I believe" something has nothing to do with article. But to answer your question, I don't see why it is not plausible that one-fourth or one-fifth of population of Kerala are descendants of those who migrated from a neighboring country 2200-2300 ago. Just remember the population increase exponentially and a few hundred migrants can have many million descendants after 2200-2300 years. I also like to point out that Sinhalese people are descendants of Aryan migrants from north India if some kind of national pride is what bothers you.
 * Regarding Kambil Anantha, I don't know whether he was a well established historian or someone who put forward a fringe theory, but I am very well interested to see what his story is. I suggest you to be precise and give more information such as name of book, page number and if possible a link to the mentioned work where everyone can check and verify the matter.
 * Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion regarding the origin of Ezhava people and the term Ezhava? From where did you get that opinion? --99v (talk) 15:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

hi ,

Actually the word meaning of ezhava, some refers to Uzhuvar meaning one who works on fields , and you can see this meaning in Tharussapally script. Also, some argues that ezhava is a collection of almost 32 castes with different names , and it was narayana guru who united them.Also ezhava consists of the largest population with still 21% of kerala population , take the converted muslims from malabar and christians from south kerala , this would become more than 50% of kerala population. This will be almost 1.5 crore. I you take srilankas's population it is still currently only 2.14 crore ? How come these people in ships or something, like you told came in ancient times still able to make these huge population in kerala still present ? also assume that namboothiris were the actual inhabitants of kerala (as parashurama myth ! ), how come they only make just 1% of kerala population now , if they have existed much before these migration happened ? or consider some other hindu group as an example. If they had existed much before or the same period as those migration happened from lanka, why are they smaller in number that ezhava ?

Also you cannot find anything in those scripts during chera rule mentioning the word ezhava, nor in sangham literature ,so it is wrong that these people were before 1000 or take , 2000 years before .Within these 1000 years they could not make into these huge population.

Simply i can conclude that the word ezhava refers to someone who follows bhuddhisim like as of srilanka, after the conquest of namboothiri's in kerala's socio-political structure , namboothiri's started calling the followers of bhuddhism as ezhavar , teasing them relating to sri lankan bhudhists , kings started recording them as ezhavar in royal land records , slowly slowly they became ezhavar ?

how come both chovar and chon came with those people ? they are not called as ezhavar in their native, they were called as chivan and chins in travancore and central travancor , in malabar thiyyar as seperate caste entity. Ezhavar were a political term coined by nambudiri to defame the belief and structure, the same way someone calls sanghi ,kongi and commie and not as 'Sangha Pravarthakar', 'congress men' , 'Comrade' .... This is the history and they are many new books , which uproots all parashurama kind of history and explains logically. You can refer to on one of them. Them book i have mentioned of Kambil Ananthan master is famous. if you don't know kambil Ananthan master or Pootheri Kunjambu or Rarichan moopan, one can simply say that you are here for some other intention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othayoth shankaran (talk • contribs) 09:04, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you still don't understand what Wikipedia is, Wikipedia is not a place to write your own imaginations and fabricated versions of history. Only those content which are substantiated by reliable third party sources goes into Wikipedia article. The authors mentioned by you do not seem so. --99v (talk) 12:51, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

A guy with only 200 edits need not need to help me. I know what wikipedia is ,and stop attacking me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Othayoth shankaran (talk • contribs) 16:31, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, since most of your actions do not show you are familiar with Wikipedia. First of all, go and learn how to sign on a talk page. --99v (talk) 12:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I've not read the sources, so this is just a general comment. There is always a bit of a question mark about using even modern district gazetteers for statements of history because often they reprint the unreliable material compiled for their Raj era equivalents.
 * I suppose the opinion of Narayana is relevant, not because he was an expert but because of his profound importance to social developments in Kerala. - Sitush (talk) 06:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Removing contents
POV from 'certain paid groups' removing the works which carries original reference. Admin must interfere and not some editors.

Admin must look into this.


 * WP:NPA is worth a read, along with NPOV, RS etc. If you think I am paid, please prove it: I have been editing here for a long time and am pretty sure someone would have spotted a pattern of paid editing by now. - Sitush (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Images
I have removed loads of recently added images. They seemed to be random, had captions that made them look like stub articles within a main article, and in many cases were dreadful quality. Images are meant to complement an article by aiding tge reader's understanding; articles are not meant to be collages of the things. - Sitush (talk) 05:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Please review the description given for the image ".A 19th century Thiyyar gentleman in British Indian Service holding the tile of Rao Bahadur, Amsham Adhikari and Menon in South Malabar" in the infobox. The quotation could not be found in the source given. LordImhothep (talk) 14:31, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The image and its description appears to be totally OR as well as POV pushing by a Thiyya user. --99v (talk) 17:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I had removed it around the time of my first note above but it was briefly reinstated by someone who is now currently blocked. I have just removed another misleading image that we claimed showed Ezhava musicians Sitush (talk) 03:30, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion
I saw the new gallery nice work Adding some prominent Ezhava families from Central and south of Kerala would be more informative. This is the first time am writing on Wikipedia it's a new experience Ww0468 (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Please see my note in the next section. Wikipedia is not intended to be a scrapbook or repository of images - Wikimedia Commons exists and is linked from this article. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 05:42, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Another suggestion I would like to make is that the page should have a bit more information from the south side of the Kerala the Thiruvithamkoor kingdom region. How they where appointed to the Thiruvithamkoor army as well as the British Force's. Also the Chekavar is referred as a subcast. In Herman Gundert dictionary it's refers to 1. Military man 2. A person from the ĪLavar cast (Ezhavar) does this mean it's a title that only people with martial training from the Ezhava/Thiyya community uses it Ww0468 (talk) 15:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, kingdom of Travancore did not employ any Ezhavas in their army.-99v (talk) 17:29, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

In the eighteenth century Travancore, there were many Ezhava warriors like Renakeerthy Chekavar (Chief Commander of Marthanda Varma’s army), Akathiyadi Panicker (Chief army Commander of Kottarakkara kingdom), Ambanattu Panicker (landlord and chief army commander of Chempakassery kingdom), Pappan Chekavar (Kalarippayyattu trainer, palace physician and commander of Chempazhanthy Pillai’s army), Lokanatha Panicker and his son Patheenatha Panicker of Varanapally tharavad (Chief army commanders of Kayamkulam kingdom). These Ezhava warriors were totally ignored by the historians. . I'll try to find some solid evidence to support all these. Even after all the people left from Ezhava cast due to castism. Still Ezhava hold a large chunk of Hindu population in Kerala. And also considering the Kalari skills as well there is a high chance of they being in the army. Ww0468 (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Reform movements and fight against Brahmanism?
When you are writing about ezhavas, you should understand that the history of ezhavas is incomplete with out the fierce struggles our people did against Brahmanism. You should try to include more about the fight of ezhava warriors against the Brahmanism like what resulted in Dalavai kulam massacre, Nangeli, Arattupuzha velayudha chekaver and the modern reform movement under Sri Narayana guru ( he is not a petty guru . He was a learned sage who was well versed in three languages- Sanskrit, Tamil and Malayalam and was respected even by royal house of Travancore who gave land for his ashram). We are the only community in all of India who can claim success in this regard by own efforts. Channaar123 (talk) 13:42, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * See WP:V - Sitush (talk) 14:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Ezhava and Nair's
Nairs are nagas who have same parental lineage as maravans or thevars in Tamil Nadu, bunts in Karnataka. Ezhavas and billavas are villavers or archers, one of the hunting tribe who founded Chera kingdom. Others were vanavar, malaiyar, vettuvar. It is better to remove the common parentage of nairs and ezhavas. There might have been some mixing. But both are separate communities. The occupations of nairs were mostly warriors, administrators and land lords. But ezhavas were a multi occupation community (Ayurvedic physicians and traditional medicine practitioners, kalaripayattu trainers more than being warriors, small agricultural land lords, coconut cultivators, coir makers, ship makers, weavers, agricultural labourers, toddy tappers). Channaar123 (talk) 14:09, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Has been discussed before, I think. Still needs WP:V. - Sitush (talk) 14:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

This is a sensitive issue among both communities. It is not a thing you should put in a caste article based on the observation by one author.kindly remove it. Channaar123 (talk) 15:16, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid it's policy that Wikipedia is not censored to protect anybody's sensitivities. Please follow the link to see. Bishonen &#124; tålk 15:26, 23 April 2020 (UTC).

Ittu Achuden Chekaver - not given due respect
Kindly give more respect to the knowledge than giving importance to warrior tradition. He is behind the great work of Horthus Malabaricus. It is a great work because the father of taxonomy Carl Linnaeus based his work on that text. one entire genus of family was based on Achuden's name. He worked with three konkani brahmin Ayurvedic physicians under guidance of king of Cochin and Van Rheede, governor of Dutch. These are undeniable facts which can be claimed by any other community. Give importance to knowledge. Vidhyadhanam sarvadhanal pradhanam. Channaar123 (talk) 13:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * See WP:V but he would never get much mention in this article anyway - it is not about one person. - Sitush (talk) 14:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

The way the section of Ayurvedic traditions is written is horrible and is not giving any importance to Itty Achuden or the traditional medicine we followed. He himself was part of the team who wrote Horthus Malabaricus and that book is foundation stone for modern taxonomy in Botany. What is the use of wikipedia if you are not giving clear picture of history. Some editors please look into it. Channaar123 (talk) 14:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * WP:SOFIXIT, but only if you have reliable sources. I suggest you propose your changes here. - Sitush (talk) 15:00, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

One thing I noticed is the article two different statement regarding traditional medicine and Ayurvedic practitioners. Why can't you combine it. Itti Achuden was a co author of Horthu Malabaricus, he dictated in Malayalam which was translated to Dutch. It is clearly return in Dutch in Horthus Malabaricus that he is a doctor of Chego origin from malabar and dutch governor Hendrick Van Rheede was behind the book and there is a section in the book about king of Cochin also. In these article about ezhava so many unwanted things like ongoing supreme court battle between ezhavas and thiyyas and thiyyas claim of superiority ( you cannot say something which is subjudice in India. It is a content of court) and unnecessary legends with no citations. I think all these things about Itty Achuden are relevant things since it directly influenced a scientific branch of taxonomy. Channaar123 (talk) 15:35, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Contempt of court I meant Channaar123 (talk) 15:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have linked to our article about Achudan. It would be undue weight to have loads of information about him here. I am not even sure that his caste was relevant to his achievements - could he have done the same if he was, say, a Nambudiri or Nair? The point being, yes, he is a notable person but his life and achievements really don't add anything to the reader's understanding of Ezhava people as a whole (except perhaps some demonstration of the hero-worship that caste association seems to generate & which appears absurd to many people outside India).


 * I, too, don't fully understand the organisation of paragraphs in that section. It probably does ned some work but ayurveda is not something I have ever really delved into. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I think we can make more of the Bicker/Parkes source already in the article but I will have to read it properly first. - Sitush (talk) 16:31, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

For an ezhava, he is an exception. In 17 th century an outcaste person having this much knowledge and having got international recognition is an exceptional thing. I don't think any outcaste or Sudra person got this much recognition in that time and for people outside India say a botanist or a historian that is an interesting feature.The details about ezhava caste doing kalaripayattu or they are Buddhist is not that interesting according to me. Because many other outcastes have trained in martial arts. Many were Buddhists in BCs. Channaar123 (talk) 17:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

One more thing is the father of Taxonomy Carl Linnaeus, based his classification on Horthus Malabaricus. If you read about Hendrick Van Rheede article, it is evident. As a student of history a Kshatriya king allowing an outcaste person to have his name in a Dutch book is a very interesting thing. Channaar123 (talk) 18:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I am afraid you are just confirming what I think: Itty Achudan was not a typical Ezhava. As such, his achievements tell the reader little about the Ezhava people as a whole and therefore should not feature too much in an article that is indeed intended to be about those people generally. - Sitush (talk) 02:53, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Itty Achuden is a typical ezhava traditional medicine practitioner. He is like an old ezhava vaidyar like velutheri perunneli or chavarcode physicians of erstwhile Travancore who were physicians of royal house. Ezhava as a community had most number of physicians. But what made Achuden distinguished is his international recognition. There were more vaidyans in the community than martial arts experts. His international recognition means traditional medicine of Kerala was the basis of modern taxonomy and what we were practising was not some black magic. I don't know how to explain more. Channaar123 (talk) 03:29, 24 April 2020 (UTC)


 * You are explaining his status just fine, thanks. I think the problem is more one of you not appreciating the balance required in articles. He has his own article and people interested in him can get to it from this one, and we already mention that ayurvedic medicine was a feature within the community. I hope to expand slightly on that latter point when I have read some sources.


 * I think the kalaripayattu stuff has much to do with a group of people who were insistent on promoting the alleged warrior status of the caste because they sought self-glorification of their community & to downplay the perceived inferiority of being shudra. I am afraid that is a common problem with caste articles on Wikipedia and it particularly affects certain groups, such as people from Kerala (famously "a melting-pot of castes" - see Caste system in Kerala). -Sitush (talk) 05:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Sitush Channaar123 (talk) 09:12, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Buddhist tradition of ezhava
There is no definite evidence regarding this. A stone inscription about an ezhava Buddhist. He is a Sri lankan Buddhist or a buddhist belonging to this community, only God knows. The legendary characters like aromal and unniyarcha were Hindus definitely. This community had produced a saivite nayyannar, enathi nathar. He had the surname and his caste mentioned in the olden books. Buddhism and theories of Srilankan origin are less likely to be the cause of ezhava becoming avarnas because the artisan castes were also considered avarnas ( usually they are savarnas in other parts of India). Channaar123 (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you are referring to but you have made a lot of poor edits recently and I will be reverting them. As you have been told here before, you have to abide by WP:V. - Sitush (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I have reverted it. You have to reflect what reliable sources say, not add unreliable sources, mangle what they say and insert your own commentary that isn't even said in the sources. I suggest for the time being you propose changes here rather than edit the article directly - you mean well but seem not yet to understand how Wikipedia works. - Sitush (talk) 06:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Legend about ezhava
Why do you want to entertain a legend which has no citations? Channaar123 (talk) 15:14, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I added a source for some of it. Fairly sure it was me who tagged it as requiring sources a few days ago - I knew I had seen it somewhere reliable. - Sitush (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks sitush Channaar123 (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

But still showing citation needed Channaar123 (talk) 15:38, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The bit you removed is now sourced. I haven't yet even looked for the other bit. - Sitush (talk) 16:13, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The other bit - Another version of the story says that the king sent eight martial families at the request of a Chera king to quell a civil war that had erupted against him - may come from Journal of Kerala Studies, volume 38, page 59, according to my Google search for "ezhava eight chera origin". I cannot see the entire source and thus have not added it. NB: S. N. Sadasivan mentions it in his Social History of India but he has long been determined not to be a reliable source. - Sitush (talk) 07:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Similar Communities
There are similar communities in other parts of the country like Billava, Bhandari, Ediga, Goud and Kalwar. The Alhuwalias from Punjab are also a similar community. 116.72.161.30 (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.&mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 22:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2020
Alumootil family was one of the wealthiest families in Travancore and the Channar of the family was the second person to own a car in Kerala. 116.72.161.30 (talk) 21:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 22:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2020
Martial Tradition of Ezhavas

=
=============== Ezhavas had the monopoly of Kalari and Ayurveda practices. The Ampanattu panicker (Chief commander of Chembakassery Raja), Cherayai Panickers & Ampalattil Panickers were renowned Kalari experts, Aramkunnam Kalari experts of Eranadu kingdom, Umayanadu Kizhavan (Chief of Kollam Raja), Moolor Thandan, Kochu Krishnan Asan - a Kalari trainer of Marthananda Varma (helped him to combat ettuveettil pillammar), Varanappallil Panickers (Royal Commander of various Rajas), Akkathayyadi panicker (Commander of Kottarakkara - Elayidathu Swarupam), the famous Kadathanadan warriors like Aromal Chekavar, Kuroolli Chekon, Unniyarcha, Kalari trainers for Ettuveetil pillammar - Kulathoor ezhava Kalari panicker of Travancore (They even have a Kalari Devatha temple at Thozhuvancodu), Arattupuzha Velayudha Panicker (son of Kallisseri Perumal Chekavar) & almost all the royal palace Kalari trainers were ezhavas, and that's how Lord Ayyappan went to Cheerappan Chira Ezhava tharavadu for Kalari training. Ref: S N Sadasivan; A social history of India;:ISBN 81-7648-170-X

Imp Note: Thacholi othenan Kurup is considered as Nair. He was titled with kurup, but not Nambiar, this was a bit strange. Those days Kurup was a title given to anyone who was proficient in Kalari or Astrology. And Othenan's mother was a thiyya lady called akkama uppati. So Othenan’s lineage needs further confirmation.

Also, as per historical references, It was ezhavas who trained nairs Kalari and related Marama chikitsa and its form varma adi. Kalari warriors or gurus of famous Kings were Ezhavas. Kallingu madathil an ezhava family of calicut were the kalari trainers of king Zamorin, Cheerapanchira and Vallabhasseril were the kalari trainers for Pandalam Royals and If you take kayamkulam kingdom, alummootil channars were kalari trainers and Varanapallil panickers were their commanders. Also, Mudakathur (Mavelikkara), Lakshana panickers were famous ezhava kalari trainers. Mundakkal chekavars were the part army of Venadu and they were also kalari trainers. As mentioned above, Puthiooram veedu was well known for kalari and related Martial arts. Tulunadan kalari was also run by ezhava trainers.

=
========== 2601:87:300:4130:6197:20A6:D8C7:C41D (talk) 01:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Please do a bit research before adding this. S.N Sadashivan is an unreliable source. Already blacklisted in Wikipedia. Thanks.27.97.175.188 (talk) 07:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 13:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020
Requesting to edit two things in the very first sentence:

A) According to the below Wiki article, Ezhavas account only 21.6% of Kerala's population. But, this article says Ezhavas constitute 23%. This should at least be corrected to at least 22% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kerala#Castes_of_Kerala[36][37][38][39][40]

B) In this article Thiyyas (a distinct ethnic group) are classified as Ezhava which is technically wrong and subject to interpretation. Anyway to make things clear, can you put "(Ezhava+Thiyya)" just after 23%.

So, if my edit request is accepted, then the first line will be changed to :

"The Ezhavas are a community with origins in the region of India presently known as Kerala, where in the 2010s they constituted about 22% (Ezhava+Thiyya) of the population " Cometrudolf (talk) 16:10, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, note that Wikipedia is not a reliable source as per WP:NOTSOURCE ~ Amkgp  💬  11:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2020
Martial Arts Experts from Ezhava / Thiyya Community: 1	Aromal Chekavar 2	Unniyarcha 3	Kannappa Chekavar 4	Aromal Unni 5	Kannappan Unni 6	Arattupuzha Velayudha Panicker 7	Akathayyadi panicker - Chief commandor of ilayidath swaroopam(Kottarakkara kingdom) 8	Ambanattu panicker - Chief commandor of chempakassery Kingdom. Ref: Pathonmpatham noottandile keralam by Bhaskaranunni 9	Lokanatha Panicker - Chief commandor of kayamkulam kingdom 10	Patheenatha Panicker - Son of Lokanatha Panicker, Chief commander of kayamkulam kingdom who defeated Marathanda varma of travancore 3 times. The name of his tharavadau is Varanappally near kayamkulam where Sree Narayana Guru lived during his education from Kummapally Raman Pilla Asan. Ref: KK SN Directory. 11	Renakeerthy chekavar - Commandor of Marthandavarma. Ref: Travancore state manual. 12	Kallassery velayuthan chekavar - (Arattupzha velayudha panicker)A social reformer and great warrior from kayamkulam, who made the first Ezhava Siva prathishta even before Guru. 13	Aringodar 14	Kuroolli Chekon known as Kadathanadan Simham, was an Thiyya warrior lived in the 19th century in South Malabar who fought against the caste oppression by the Savarnas. 15	Kottakkal kanaran gurukkal he was the guru of C V Narayanan nair who started CVN kalari. 16	Keeleri Kunhikannan a circus legend from thalassery. Hitler called him the jumping devil of India. 17	Muthedath Aramanakkal Kelappan Mannanar - An ezhava from north malabar,he is the one have the right to receive the outcasted ("smarthavicharam") namputhiri women. Ref:Sree Narayana guru suvarna rekhakal by G.Priyadarsan 18	Manakkadan Kunhambu Gurikkal- conducted a kathakali yogam in Erannholi 19	Karithotta Kochukunju Assan 20	Sri. Balakrishnan Munduchirayil, Kalari and Marma (vadakkan sampradayam) expert in Alappuzha 21	Panayam parambil Kittunni conducted a circus named Malabar Cannanore Circus in the year 1913 2601:87:300:4130:E1A3:D88E:7DEF:87C7 (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This list is just not relevant enough for this page. If any of those happen to have an article here on Wikipedia you can suggest adding them to List of Ezhavas. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Ezhava
Wikipedia has published few wrong statements in Ezhava.

'''This kind of publishing wrong statements leads to forceful community conversion. Forceful community conversion is a crime in India.'''

The entire Thiyya community of India is against Wikipedia.

It is against the intention of creation of Wikipedia.

So kindly correct the wrong statements published in Ezhava in Wikipedia.

Regards Mangool Kanakath Surendran — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangool Kanakath Surendran (talk • contribs) 11:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Provide a reliable source for the correction that has to be made. Read WP:SOURCES WP:V Outlander 07@talk 11:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thiyyar Wikipedia
Government of Kerala Department of Backward communities Development order granting permission to record Ezhava/Thiyya/Billava (E/T78) instead of mentioning cast community as Ezhava in application for Admissions to schools, school transfer certificates and cast certificates, census documents. Thiyya and Ezhava cast is separate cast new government order, please approval to Thiyyar Wikipedia page. Nandanavijayan (talk) 08:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2020
To re-add the image, the user is blocked and the edit summary was misleading, also see WP:NOTCENSORED. Please add in the body of article. 2409:4073:49D:2C65:8DB8:5BAE:62F4:FB28 (talk) 15:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done I added it to the infobox as you hadn't made clear where you wanted it (I used my own judgement). I agree that the justification of the user who removed it was inadequate. SSSB (talk) 11:19, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Thiyyar wikipedia
New.govt.order. Nandanavijayan (talk) 08:47, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended confirmed protection
is something I'm reluctant to set. However, given the persistence of the disruptive socks and given that the page was indefinitely semi-protected, I see it as necessary. Apologies for inconvenience, please make edit requests supported by reliable sources. -- Deep fried okra ( talk ) 13:24, 21 December 2020 (UTC)