Talk:FET y de las JONS

Requested move 4 September 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to FET y de las JONS per convincing nom, unopposed. No such user (talk) 14:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista → FET y de las JONS – Under WP:NAMINGCRITERIA and considering WP:NCPP. A quick search in Google Books gives around 3000 results for FET y de las JONS, compared to 885 for Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista or 322 for its English translation, making the proposal more recognizable in English reliable sources as per WP:COMMONNAME. FET y de las JONS also improves over the current title in being more natural and concise (the current title is absurdingly long and is not one a reader would likely search for), while being equally precise and with no difference on consistency (the current one doesn't look like it was thought of to be specifically consistent with anything else, but rather, because of it being the full Spanish name of the party). A quick glance to the page's history reveals that this article was moved several times in the past to other random titles, albeit in a somewhat chaotic way and without a true discussion. Impru20 (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment from nom Correcting myself, it seems like FET y de las JONS could also be more consistent with other articles, with Falange Española de las JONS and Falange Española de las JONS (1976) not spelling out the whole "Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista" wording. Impru20 (talk) 00:24, 5 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infobox
It's been a while since a plethora of IPs and registered users alike have been adding up fancruft to the infobox of this article. Infoboxes are not intended to be a channel for the streaming of original research, they are not intended to become a a memorabilistic altar of medals and badges and they are not intended to be continuously filled just for the sake of it, particularly if it is at the cost of accuracy and/or the cost of adding unsourced crap. This has to stop. In addition, following the 1937 Unification Decree (that is, the beginning point for this article) the leader of the party (Franco) remained in the post of "Jefe Nacional" (National Chief) following the model of Fascist party. Until he died (1975). The leader of the "party" was not the "Prime Minister".--Asqueladd (talk) 10:06, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Sidebars
There are currently 3 vertical sidebars in the entry. Are they really necessary? Forming a wall to the right of the text, they hinder any chance of adding other stuff (for example: images).--Asqueladd (talk) 10:36, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Fascism as party ideology
The party has controversy regarding fascist influence, the early rule of Franco in particular being described as a "semi-fascist dictatorship". However, to just list "fascism" as the party ideology is just flat-out incorrect and should be removed. The other listed terms/concepts are far more accurate (falangism, national syndicalism, national catholicism) --Havsjö (talk) 17:47, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * There were differences between Franco's regime and Mussolini's one, but why is it just flat-out incorrect to list Fascism as the party ideology? Please, explain, and also, Falangism was Fascism. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Because Mussolinis party had fascism as its ideology. Here the fascist Falange was just one section of the different factions merged into the FET y de las JONS, and is a group which were sideline by Franco early on. So to call this collective party which was in power both through the time of the "greatest level of fascistization" early on to the much more relaxed rule in the 70's as having "fascism" as its party ideology is wrong (and note that during its most totalitarian rule its described as the "greatest level of fascistization" rather than "fascist"). Further "falangism" was indeed originally "Spanish fascism" but "it largely became an authoritarian, conservative ideology connected with Francoist Spain". It "core ideology" was, as mentioned, sidelined pretty hard in the "flexible" rule of Franco, who is also widely agreed to personally not being an ideological fascist. This is also why the already included "falangism" makes "fascism" redundant, it covers both the ideology of early and late rule and is not WRONG like "fascism". --Havsjö (talk) 18:41, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it also merged other ideologies such as "Traditionalism" (from the Carlists), so by this reasoning, Traditionalism should be removed as well, although I can agree with removing "Fascism" in the infobox because it is redundant, also no one denies that Franco eventually distanced his regime from Fascism because of the War, for the term "fascistization" and "semi-fascist", once again there were differences between Franco's regime and Mussolini's one, just like there were differenes between Mussolini's regime and Hitler's one, it is still Fascism, also, the Falangist influence started to decline in the late 1950s, when they were replaced by Opus Dei technocrats. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Insofar FET y de las JONS was (partially?) falangist it was fascist too (as a sidenote, the FET y de las JONS cadres were also overwhelmingly extracted from the falangist "political family"). Keeping in mind that, and as long as there are sources describing the party as fascist, removing the category is a disservice. That's regarding the category. I am personally loath to the navigation templates, broadly constructed (the vertical ones are also a huuuge waste of space). Regarding the infobox, that's tricky. Possibly falangism already does the trick. In any case, I feel there is a common misconception (or poor way to frame the situation), necessarily equating the drift of the regime with the nature of the FET y de las JONS (for example: i) this infobox should not strive for describing the regime, but the organization; or, conversely ii) technocrats taking over the government to some extent does not imply they took over the FET y de las JONS).--Asqueladd (talk) 21:01, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This actually looks like a good way to handle the page, I support it to be honest. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Defending the category Fascist parties (and/or possibly also the descriptor), we may also add that the Category:Falangist parties category is from an ontological standpoint an horror (meaninglessly semantical) and the article Falangism is not free from certain level of original research.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:48, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Fascism
According with these sources fascism was one of its ideologies: Rupert Loup (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

"Falangist" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Falangist. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 7 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 20:03, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent infobox edits
I'm proposing these solutions for the infobox due to recent edits that I've made. I've removed the bullet ideologies since they can be grouped into "Falangism" but I think it would be better if we can change it to look like National Fascist Party's page, we're just going to need sources for these claims and nothing else. Vacant0 (talk) 13:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * As opposed to Fascism, Nazisn, and Communism, for instance, very few people know what "Falangism" is and what it stands for. For this reason the bulleted list is preferable to simply listing "Falangism", which tell people who don;t already know nothing of value. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:13, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on that. I'll look into more sources and I'll add them to the infobox. Thanks Vacant0 (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Look, it's good you are attempting to source labels but a trim of labels could be even more useful instead. All in all, besides sourcing labels, I just beg you 1) to consider a discussion on WP:WEIGHT 2) don't mix this organization with neither the regime nor the dictator in a WP:SYNTH fashion, no matter how logical or tempting it may sound to you. I'll map the thing out: This organization  is widely presented  in modern scholarship as a one (read the cited sources, they are available),  as in useful and not obscure descriptor summarizing their ideology (so I don't know the point about moving the label down for some rather "nominal" labels linking to either a garbage article or to a time period). Aside from being the Spanish version of,  —during Francoism— relates to an ideology at least as much as it does to a political culture and an identity/personality cult to "the missing one".  reads like a disposable feel-good badge to pin on the chest more than anything (it also happens to be redundant with ) to begin with. Rather than a full-fledged ideology  is more like one of the two main far-right identities and political cultures of the Francoist regime (together with the so-called , the more fascist one), of course located to some extent within this organization but possibly mostly located outside of it, as in rather having its ideological core on the intellectual remnants of Acción Española (for this please read Ismael Saz's Las culturas de los nacionalismos franquistas developing on the idea of the confluence in the contruction of the Francoist regime of two essential political cultures: "the national-catholic, which had the group of Acción Española as a point of reference, and the fascist of FE-JONS." ). Conversely  looks to be WP:UNDUE/tangential for the infobox, potential discussion on the body notwithstanding.  is, I don't know how to phrase it, redundant at so many levels. The  label  relates more to a modern (as in 21st-century or at least post-1989) construct (brought forward with some level of whitewashing purpose, right?), which does not centrally relate to this topic at all, whether you bring a random source dealing about the biography of the Ukrainian fascist Stepan Bandera (as it was the case in this article some time ago) to verify it or not. Bye.--Asqueladd (talk) 02:33, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

"Falange" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falange&redirect=no Falange] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. 64.229.90.172 (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

"La Falange" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=La_Falange&redirect=no La Falange] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. 64.229.90.172 (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)