Talk:FIBA Basketball World Cup

World Basketball Champions' Teams
I like the idea, thanks to whoever found all the names of the players, but it should be cleaned up a bit. What does everyone think of turning the "look" of the article into more of a FIFA world cup look. Such as having First and Second place teams, and the links to the teams lead to their basketball teams. That's going to take some work, but is anyone up for it. And if not, what do you think? --Hurricane Angel 01:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

"Third Place Match"
Shouldn't it be "Third Place Game" or "Third Place Playoff"? We have basketball games, not basketball matches. -- Howard  the   Duck  13:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it already. -- Howard  the   Duck  05:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Champions
Strangely, according to the FIBA web site (in spanish) Brazil has 5 championships and Argentina two:

http://www.fiba2006.fiba.com/pages/esp/fe/06_wcm/pres/hist/allTimeMeda.asp?selNodeID=725&openNodeIDs=725&level2MenuBgColor=%23B30707&level2MenuBorderColor=white&level2MenuHlBgColor=white&level2MenuHlTextColor=black&level2MenuTextColor=white&level3MenuBgColor=white&level3MenuBorderColor=black&level3MenuHlBgColor=black&level3MenuHlTextColor=%23B30707&level3MenuTextColor=black&roundID=3507&selTopLevNodeID=715

Does anybody know what happened in those years, and why is different depending on the web site language?
 * I counted them, and Wiki is consistent with the list. -- Howard  the   Duck  16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Title: FIBA World Championship
Shouldn't this article be moved to FIBA World Championship? "Basketball World Championship" Only seems to be a nickname for the said tournament. "FIBA World Championship" is the official name of the tournament.
 * User:Mkr moved it already. -- Howard  the   Duck  16:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Map
I'm planning to create a map but there are many defunct countries... -- Howard  the   Duck  16:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've created a map. If there are some omissions, post on the Image's discussion page or at my talk page. Thanks. -- Howard  the   Duck  05:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Revert
I self-reverted the "Comprehensive team results in each World Championship" section but it was a duplicate of the same section found at National team appearances in the FIBA World Championship. -- Howard  the   Duck  02:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

SFR Yugoslavia, FR Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro, Serbia
-- Howard  the   Duck  17:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Did FIBA recognize FR Yugoslavia as the successor state of SFR Yugoslavia?
 * 2) Did FIBA recognize Serbia and Montenegro as the successor state of FR Yugoslavia?
 * 3) Did FIBA recognize Serbia as the successor state of Serbia and Montenegro?


 * NO it Does Not http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/FIBA/fibaHist/p/openNodeIDs/987/selNodeID/987/fibaHist.html


 * Yes, Fiba officially recognized all of those, in Fiba Serbia is the direct descendent of SFR Yugoslavia.
 * What I know is only FIBA recognized the records of FR Yugoslavia to Serbia and Montenegro, which was succeeded by Serbia. SFR Yugoslavia had many player outside Serbia. -- Howard  the   Duck  04:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * FIBA transferred SFR Yugoslavia's records to FR Yugoslavia because it was the continuation of SFRY, other countries like Croatia and Bosnia succeeded and created their own new countries even if SFRY had many non-Serbian players on the teams Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and FYROM still broke off from the original country.. Do you understand what I'm saying?  FR was the direct continuation of SFR and in turn SCG is the continuation of FR and Serbia is the continuation of SCG.
 * Take a look at the 2 references. On the first ref, the PDF by FIBA, there are 2 Yugoslavias on the last page. On the USA Basketball link, they've listed only one Yugoslavia, with an asterisk "*In 1998 Yugoslavia included only Montenegro and Serbia". Since FIBA > USAB, I chose to follow the FIBA PDF. -- Howard  the   Duck  05:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Howard:

as somebody already pointed out to you, Croatia (and others) have separated from Yougoslavia, while Serbia stayed as its sucessor, and that is being recognized by virtually all international organizations, including FIBA. You may want to look at Serbia team profile at official eurobasket site, and you'll see that sucesses of SFRY basketball are listed there: http://www.eurobasket2007.org/en/cid_BqypGFJPHy-Nw4lwIAq,v3.teamID_96799.compID_qMRZdYCZI6EoANOrUf9le2.season_2007.roundID_5169.coid_J6itdCOZG-U2fSw6JdXEE0.articleMode_on.html

You may also want to compare it with with Croatia team profile on the same site. Of course, this all does not mean that non-Serbian players didn't have a strong impact on SFRY results, they contributed immensely, but the fact is Yugoslavia has a legal sucessor state (which is not the case for Soviet Union or Czechoslovakia).


 * Read this scroll to the very bottom. -- Howard  the   Duck  03:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

FR Yugoslavia as the successor state of SFR Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro as the successor state of FR Yugoslavia, Serbia as the successor state of Serbia and Montenegro!!! That should count!

Aca Srbin, 30. 09. 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aca Srbin (talk • contribs) 10:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Serbia is successor of Yugoslavia so correct the table!!!! Count all of medals to successor state of Serbia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.223.15.37 (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Go tell that to FIBA. We only follow them. – HTD  ( ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens. ) 23:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

To put it simple: The SUMMARIES table (under the RESULTS header) lists "Yugoslavia" as the World Champions in 1970, 1978, 1990, 1998 and 2002. However, notice how the first three have a different flag, with a red star in the middle. This means the original SFR Yugoslavia, which disbanded in 1994. The last two don't have the star, which makes it the flag of FR Yugoslavia - the state which later turned to Serbia and Montenegro, but only in 2003!!!!! This is all correct, BUT... The MEDAL table shows Yugoslavia with 3 gold medals (correct) and Serbia with 2 gold medals - not correct! The winner in 1998 and 2002 was then known as FR Yugoslavia! This distinction should be made, just as it was done in the table above it. I was very confused when I was looking in the SUMMARIES table for a FIBA World Cup in which "Serbia" as such finished as champions. There isn't any. It was FR Yugoslavia.186.205.93.19 (talk) 00:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * To tell you the truth, I honestly don't know, since Serbia has to place fourth or better after Montenegro separated (until now); my gut fell is, having seen FIBA allocate FR Yugoslavia's records to Serbia, they'd also do the same thing here. – HTD  ( ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens. ) 03:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

The table does not need to be updated. Early Yugoslavia teams were made up of at least half non-serbian players. You don't have claim to that. Get over it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.31.7.233 (talk) 23:47, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Serbia is not the 'offical' succesedor of the Yugoslavia in terms of FIBA and basketball Championships, so please don't let any vandalism that shows Serbia as succesedor. Kindest regards. William9991 (talk) 14:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

In the spanisch WP we have now again one editor who wants to mix Serbia and Yugoslavia. []--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 11:43, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Tournament articles
The Spanish Wikipedia has articles for each and every tourney. If anyone has Spanish skills (mine is very bad), it'll be great if they're translated. -- Howard  the   Duck  16:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Prestige
"The World Championship gold medal is considered to be just as prestigious as the Olympic Basketball Tournament gold medal." Are you kidding? The players that show up, the size of the crowds, and the television viewership numbers would all strongly disagree—that's just silly. Fridgey34 (talk) 13:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I am in complete agreement with Fridgey34. And the choice of "source" (or reference) is hardly authoritative. I would say the opposite of the article's statement is much closer to the truth. Therefore I have hidden the sentence, with plans to delete it after enough time on this discussion board.--SidP (talk) 01:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Coach K had a good answer when he was asked about this. – HTD  ( ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens. ) 02:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yugoslavia won 5 gold ones
And in the table below says the States are number 1 with 3 gold medals, and Yugoslavia is number 2 with also 3 golds (when it's clearly Yugoslavia won 5 gold medals). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.73.32.45 (talk) 06:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Mauzervlada, 9 September 2010
To whom it may concern,

By the international law countries which are successors of former countries should be placed in medal charts as successors. Therefore Serbia should be put together with Yugoslavia and Russia should be put with USSR. That means that Yugoslavia/Serbia should have 5 basketball world cups. Same thing with all other tournaments.

Best regards
 * See these:
 * Scroll all the way to the bottom
 * Scroll all the way to the bottom, then click "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP MEN MEDAL TABLE 1950-1998" which also has Spain who won in 2006.
 * It's been established that FIBA keeps the records of SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia/SCG as separate. I'm interested where they'll include SRB. Same for USSR and Russia. – HTD  ( ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens. ) 10:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny Mauzervlada, I'm aware of no international law which requires successors to be placed with former countries in the medal charts. Second, I'd find it hard to believe that FIBA, as a non-state actor could possibly be bound by said international law.  Finally, hasn't anyone from Serbia ever heard of the Badinter Commission?  Where the UN SPECIFICALLY stated that Serbia and Montenegro were NOT the successors and that all of the former republics were EQUAL successors...that doesn't ring a bell for anyone? Bds69 (talk) 13:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

FIBA World Championships medals' table 1950-2006 http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/FIBA/fibaHist/p/openNodeIDs/987/selNodeID/987/fibaHist.html Pantagana (talk) 21:01, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The one on archive.fiba.com is newer so that's the one I followed. – H T  D  04:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we are supposed to follow official data, but FIBA seems to be messy here. For a period, country X is a sole successor, than for a period on their pages country X is not a sole successor. This looks like "love me, love me not, love me etc.". Are we going to change our page every few months depending on the webmaster who cropped the countryname so the name can fit in the table cell?

I have a proposal for all participants here: let's find out who in FIBA creates those pages. Who in FIBA decides who will be the successor and who will not?

When the question of succession of former Yugoslavia arised, there was a Badinter's Comittee that gave its opinion about the succession of Yugoslavia. We all know who were the members of that comittee. Who was in FIBA when the succession of Yugoslavia's medal was discussed? Which FIBA's body decided that? Or FIBA's policy on their pages is being created by a webmaster, by some student that types the pagescontent as his part-time job, by a cleaning lady, by an uneducated administrative worker that does not know anything about the basketball from the other side of Atlantic Ocean? Pantagana (talk) 15:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "Are we going to change our page every few months depending on the webmaster who cropped the countryname so the name can fit in the table cell?" Yes. FIBA is a reliable source in this regard. This has always been my position on the matter (follow FIBA). If we don't follow them, then we're making things up. AFAIK, the guys at FIBA must be on the east side of the Atlantic (as FIBA is based in Switzerland) so we better leave them stupid Americans out of this. – H T  D  15:57, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Howard. Thank You for the quick reply. You're right, FIBA's seat is located in Switzerland, not in USA. Switzerland is prominent basketball country ;) I agree with You that we must follow FIBA, because of reliability of sources and avoiding of making things up. But the source should not be contradictive, as it did with here (two different claims about trophy succession), but transparent and firm. And after all, that still does not answer the question about succession of former Yugoslavia, Soviet Union etc. Who fullfills those tables and lists? Where is the official decision about that? Who signed it? Where and when it was discussed? Do You have any information about that? That would be very helpful. Pantagana (talk) 14:07, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it really is simple. It doesn't matter who in FIBA makes them, what matters is FIBA is the one that publishes them. We'd follow whatever is their latest stand on the matter, although it's acceptable if there's a line about the history on how FIBA recognizes on what modern country "gets" the old records of the countries that no longer exist.
 * If you noticed, my stand on this issue is to accept whatever FIBA releases without question. Before FIBA didn't allocate the Yugoslavia/SCG records to Serbia, so that was my position. Now they allocated those to Serbia, then we'd follow them. – H T  D  14:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Look at this page on FIBA: Vilmos Loczi, player of Yugoslavia national basketball team. The flag is completely wrong! Actually, that flag was forbidden in Yugoslavia in 1955. Pantagana (talk) 14:29, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That means FIBA allocated SFR Yugoslavia's records to FR Yugoslavia. Can you check on Soviet players? As for Soviet players, they supposedly use a Soviet flag (FIBA doesn't have one), and not the Russian flag. – H T  D  14:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Sergej Tarakanov - Soviet Union, not Russia. Toni Kukoč, Dražen Petrović, the key players of Yugoslavia and of independent Croatia, have Croatian flag. Jurij Zdovc, Slovenian player, one of key players of Yugoslavia and of independent Slovenia through a dekade 1991-2001, has the flag of FR Yugoslavia (Serbia-Montenegro), although he never played for them. That is why I say that FIBA is inconsistent with statistics. Pantagana (talk) 14:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing here, those which had played for Yugoslavia and SCG but not CRO, SLO, MKD and BIH get the flag. Those who had played for those 4 countries but never for Yugoslavia/SCG get their respective countries' flags. And after all, we're listing teams here, not countries. I thought we were talking about the medal table, now we're into players? FIBA has been inconsistent, but we'd follow on what they're using now. We have to be consistent with FIBA's inconsistency. – H  T  D  14:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Err, Zdovc played for Yugoslavia and for Slovenia, not for FRY/SCG, Emir Mutapčić played for Yugoslavia and for BiH, not for FRY/SCG, but despite that, they got the the FRY/SCG flag on FIBA's pages.
 * Let's return to original topic - the medal table. Discussion led us into the players' matter. Anyway medal table 1950-1998 (World Championships), medal's table 1950-2006 - these two show separately the results of Yugoslavia and FRY/Serbia-Montenegro, this one shows them together.
 * It's OK to be consistent with FIBA, not to make things up, but who is making those pages? What's their source? We have to find out.
 * This looks like... as if someone thinks that SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia is a simple namechange of the same country (such case was with DF Yugoslavia -> FNR Yugoslavia -> SFR Yugoslavia) - a completely wrong opinion.
 * Therefore, I propose to be more statistically correct and use FIBA's stats that respect different states medal table 1950-1998 medal's table 1950-2006 . We will not make any mistake that way, we will not make things up. We will simply be more precise that way. Pantagana (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * medal table 1950-1998 medal's table 1950-2006 are the old ones that were superseded by the new reference that is being used now. medal's table 1950-2006 in particular was used in this article for a long time before the new table appeared. Also if we'd be using the 1950-2006 table as a reference, the results of the 2010 championship shouldn't be there, otherwise, that's WP:OR. It can be mentioned though how FIBA previously allocated which modern country gets the records of a former country, if ever.
 * Now as for "It's OK to be consistent with FIBA, not to make things up, but who is making those pages? What's their source? We have to find out." That's not our problem anymore. – H T  D  15:33, 4 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm very interested to see how someone get the idea to put FRY/SCG as the sole successor of ex-Yugoslav medals. Unless he or she thought that SFR Yugoslavia -> FR Yugoslavia was a simple namechange.
 * The ex-Yugoslavia began winning the medals in 1961, but the true regular harvest began with World Championship 1970, when Croatian clubs already regularly began to win the championships. Since then, Croatian clubs won 12 championships, Serbian 6, Bosnian 3. Pictures gets more sharper if we add the administratively taken title from Croatian club Šibenka, from non-sport bodies and if we count the leagues before play-offs: Cibona two times won the league, but lost in the play-off (Zadar and Partizan won). Partizan once won the championship, Cibona won the play-off. With that, you got 14 championships to Croatia, 5 to Serbia, 2 to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
 * The importance of non-Serbian players is without any doubt. They were not the sidekicks, but the main players (D. Petrović, Kukoč, Rađa, Ćosić, Đerđa, Komazec, Jerkov, Zdovc, Delibašić, Radovanović...)
 * Also 1970-1990/91, Croatian clubs won 10 Euro-club titles (Split 5, Cibona 5), Serbia 4 (Partizan 3, C. zvezda 1), Bosnia-Herzegovina 1 (Bosna). Runners-up: Croatia 6 (Split 2, Cibona 2, Šibenka 2), Serbia 6 (C. zvezda 3, Radnički 1, OKK Beograd 1, Partizan 1), Bosnia-Herzegovina 1 (Bosna). In total, club finals: Croatia 16, Serbia 10, Bosnia 2.
 * Where did the get the idea about Serbia's sole succesorship after all this? Pantagana (talk) 15:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Like I said, it's not Wikipedia's problem anymore. We'd only follow FIBA, so go ask them. This has been a contentious issue before (with Serbians wanting YUG/FRY/SCG medals to go to them), and now that it happened, now apparently Croatians are pissed. – H T  D  15:55, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Not only Croatians, but Slovenians, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro etc. too. I was hoping that you will take some more effort to dig out something new for us :) Pantagana (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't bitch here. Go bitch at FIBA. We'd only follow them. If we don't follow them, who'd we follow? – H T  D  18:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Please don't use words like "bitch" when talking to others. I just kindly asked others for more profound searching. I have not deserved that someone tells me "bitch". Pantagana (talk) 21:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I did not refer to you as a "bitch". Re-read the passage again. – H T  D  01:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I still don't like when someone is using such verbs when talking to me. Looks rude. How would you feel if someone told you "Don't sh*t here."? Looks bad. Noone wrote that you're a sh*t, but - very wrong verb to use. Now let's get to business. Any news regarding my questions above? (Where is the official decision about that? Who signed it? Where and when it was discussed?) Has anyone investigated? Howard? Bds69? Phil Marlow? Sherlock? Monsieur Poirot? Pantagana (talk) 14:54, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I apologize if you were in any way offended when I described what could be your (or anyone else's) actions as "bitching".
 * With that said, I really don't know about how FIBA decides on this. For the longest time, it was separate. Then two years ago, they allocated all of Yugoslavia's results to Serbia. The easiest rule to follow is to follow what FIBA says, since after all, it's their tournament. Their game, their rules. We don't decide in behalf of FIBA which medal goes to what country; it is FIBA that decides for us which medal goes where. – H T  D  18:01, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What happened to the participation chart??
why is this page locked? who took the participation chart away that was on this page for years??? now you cannot see anymore which nation participated how often.....very sad Stephreef (talk) 16:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It's in a subarticle now.
 * As for the reason why this is locked, people are STILL insisting on applying Yugoslavia's records to Serbia even if FIBA says otherwise. – HTD  ( ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens. ) 17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Medal Table
Currently the section is badly presented. The reader is not able to have a clear image of all the countries which has won a medal in the FIBA World Cup throughout history.

There are three different medal tables, with the explanation that they are directly copied from the FIBA website. The fact that some countries like Serbia/Yugoslavia can be presented in different ways justifies the existence of two medal tables. But the third one seems unnecessary.

Furthermore, each one of them has its flaws. The first and second table demonstrate only the top 10 of the countries, while the third one is stuck on 2006.

I request permission to correct the medal tables and update them and delete one of them. Whoever else is eager to do it should feel free to... I'm not talking only about adding tonight's champion, but also about erasing the extra table and having all medal-winning countries listed. And of course about getting over FIBA's out-dated website.

Thank you for reading

vsliatsos 08:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * There are issues with all three:
 * The first one only shows the top 10. But it should be updated once the final is over. Hence that's updated.
 * The second one would only be stuck up to 2010, and is also just limited to the top 10.
 * I don't think FIBA would still update this to 2014.
 * I'd rather keep the first one, but we'd only list the ten best teams. Anything else would be made up. – H T  D  12:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't agree that adding all medal-winning countries would be original research. The source of the first two tables, both of then official sources from FIBA, shows a medal table limited to the top ten medaling countries but also include all the medal-winning countries for all editions of the World Cup/World Championship. In the first case, FIBA Archive, they show it here. In the second case, the 2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Media Guide, they show a medal table with only the top ten in page 128, but also show all the medalists through all editions of the event up to 2010 in the page 140. For some reason FIBA chose to crop their table to the top ten even though only 14/15 countries (now we have 15/17 with France and Serbia) have won medals through the history of the competition and that bugs me... And in the only place they finally resolve to make the full table, their history page on their official website, the source for the third table here, it is just outdated, with information only up to 2006, but also takes from nowhere one additional inexistent bronze medal to USA! That bugs me even more... FIBA must be a mess... But continuing, by doing a complete medal table, including Philippines, Croatia, Germany and Lithuania, would be just showing in a form of a table the official information of medal-winning countries published by FIBA itself. Nothing being "made up" here. Also I don't think we have to wait for a "official medal table of FIBA" including the medals of the 2014 edition (by knowing FIBA, something like that should be published in 2019...) to include those results here in the table in the article. We just have all the results, incluiding the 2014 that ends today, all of then from official source, FIBA. We should just plot then in our table here.177.94.146.106 (talk) 13:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I already got rid of the two tables. They'll be oudated after tonight. The FIBA archive website gets to be updated pretty quickly; I think it's automated, TBH. The first link you've shown is a table of the top 3 teams in reverse chronological order, not in the "medal table" format, and someone could argue that any reproduction of the data from that table into a new one might be WP:OR. Now, I suppose we can add the other teams outside the top 10 and I won't personally oppose that.
 * The reason I'm insisting on this is due to the Yugoslavia case. I want to be sure we're not making up medal tables out of something else. At least with sticking to the FIBA archive, we have something to use as a reference. If we started making up things, Serbs would allocate all of Yugoslavia's medals to Serbia, while Croats and the others want it separated.
 * I'm interested on how the FIBA archive will list Serbia's medal. I'm almost sure that the FIBA archive lists achievements by IOC code. So "Yugoslavia" isn't just restricted to SFR Yugoslavia as what was previously thought/presented, but FR Yugoslavia as well. I would have wanted to know how they dealt with Serbia and Montenegro, but they haven't medalled. In the EuroBasket medal table in the FIBA archive, Yugoslavia has 8 golds and 5 silvers; Serbia's 2009 silver wasn't counted. The medal table only reaches to the top 10, to Serbia's medal count of 0 golds, 1 silver and 0 bronzes, if it exists, isn't shown. – H T  D  14:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's better this way, even though Yugoslavia A and Yugoslavia B (The Federation of Serbia and Montenegro) is not the same. But that's on FIBA to decide how it should be listed. As for the rest of the countries (following the top 10), we' d better create a new page with details.

vsliatsos 20:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vasarchit (talk • contribs)


 * I myself don't think appending the other countries not presented in the top ten based on official information of FIBA would be original research. In lists in wikipedia we have cases in that even names of countries are shown here distinctly of that of original source based on common name policy and that is not considered original research. That would be just reorganising official information and showing it in a friendlier way. But I also undertand the issue involving SFR Yugoslavia, FR Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro and Serbia and the need to be quite strict here to try to avoid edit warring between Serbians and citizens of the other countries that emerged from the SFR Yugoslavia, specialy Croatians. I also was interested in how FIBA would act about Serbia and Montenegro medals, since they were exactly the same FR Yugoslavia, just a name change, but with a new IOC code. Unfortunately they didn't medaled during the short period of time they existed under that name. At some point in the past, up to anytime between 2006 and 2010, FIBA had consistently listed medals of SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro separately, what in my opinion would be the correct approach. And since they are the same, just a name change, if Serbia and Montenegro had won any medal, I think their record should be added and listed together with those of FR Yugoslavia. But at some point in 2010 or after FIBA just changed their approach on the matter and started listing medals of SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro together under just the name "Yugoslavia" and to worsen it, using sometimes the SFR Yugoslavia flag sometimes the FR yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro flag. Just FIBA being FIBA... But now at least (and thank God Serbia managed to win at least a silver medal to appear in top ten!) we know they list Serbia separately from all the predecessor states (for now at least... let's wait and see... ). I think Chile (now droped of top ten by Serbia), Philippines, Croatia, Germany, Lithuania and the newcomer France (congrats) deserve being in a complete table based only in official FIBA information. The full table is quite small, 16 entries. But I'll understand any course of action taken from here on that matter.177.94.146.106 (talk) 00:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Just to add one more source to the medaling countries through FIBA World Cup/World Championship history. On the "FIBA Basketball World Cup history" section of the official website of the event there is all the medalists up to 2010 includind a descripition text for each edition. And since it's the official website of the event with also all the information about the 2014 edition, we have in one single source all the information up to 2014. See it here.


 * As a testimony of "FIBA ways of doing things", there is one mistake (there must be others...) I and many others found on FIBA Archive. First of all, the bureaucratic part of FIBA is really messed up. And having a history section on their official website with a medal table 8 years outdated and with a "ghost" additional bronze medal for the USA taken from nowhere is just a testimony of that. But I'll talk about another case. Brazil won the 1988 American Olympic Qualifying Tournament for Men in Montevideo, Uruguay. Brazil beat Puerto Rico in the final by 101-92. But, there cames FIBA, for some God only knows why reason FIBA staff upped on FIBA Archive the correct score but just decided that Puerto Rico won the match by 101-92! Seriously! It can be seen here and here. FIBA Archive simply "declared" Puerto Rico the champions of that tournament. Through several years many people sent various e-mails and used every channel of communication available on every FIBA or FIBA Americas websites and as far as I know none ever got a response and the obvious mistake survives intact there on FIBA Archive for years. That even started a discussion on the article of the event here in wikipedia and people had to search for alternative sources including Puerto Rican and Agentine newspapers of the time to settle the matter for the astonishment of the people that, out of good faith, were using the data from FIBA Archive to edit the article. That can be seen in the article page here and specialy on the FIBA Americas Championship talk page here


 * After that testimony and many more "not so good" experiences with FIBA, I can just imagine the process that brought then to first show records of SFR Yugoslavia and FR yuguslavia separately and later to fuse those records, using flags randomly and so, something Pantagana questioned above. My guess would be something related with chaos theory...177.94.146.106 (talk) 01:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Heh. That FIBA Americas screw-up must've been a clerical error that won't be updated anymore. Haha.
 * I won't be opposing anyone adding all of the countries outside of the top 10 to the medal table. Just that some person might argue that we're not following the reference. That's all. – H T  D  01:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I think SCG would be a separate country if they ever won a medal. The archive uses IOC codes to sort out things. Check out the "national teams" section. FIBA also followed that up with the media guide for the 2014 championship, with the identical table, save for using, they used . If anyone noticed, when the media guide medal table was up, I used the flag with the red star on it to follow the reference. – H T  D  01:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * What impress me more on that case is that it's not a mistake hard to be seen. On the contrary, it's quite easy. The problem is those alleged "contact us" or "report an error" sections are just for show. They are actually inexistent and no one seems to read what is sent through those supposedly channels of communication with the general audience. Or even worse, they read it and just ignore it.
 * As for the complete medal table I was in doubt if I should add the remaining medalist to try to avoid fueling Serbians and Croatians on their "cruzade" in this article. If I was to do it I would waited some time since the 2014 World Cup just ended. But that seems like a pointless thinking of mine. Just looking at the history of the article and that ruge ammount of vandalism and edit warring over the SFRY/FRY/SCG/Serbia issue. They just completely ignore sources and any explanation. Whatever, another editor just added the missing countries and the post 2014 final game vandalism spurt seems to have calmed down.
 * About an SCG and if they had won a medal, I was expressing what I think should have been done. But what FIBA would have done is probably what you said. And I said "probably" and not "for sure" just because we can never rule out any outcome coming from FIBA. Don't forget the "chaos factor" around their "decisions". Haha.177.94.146.106 (talk) 00:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Separated SFRY from FRY+Serbia
Apologies for jumping the gun with this edit, where I separated achievements of Yugoslavia national basketball team from Serbia and Montenegro national basketball team (note where the latter redirects). I should have known better to check the talk page first (well, not that I found anything unexpected). However, I merely brought the table in concordance with our own treatment of those teams, so whatever mess FIBA has made with those rankings should not concern us too much. It matches the one found at so I added them as a more convenient source to check (no particular opinion whether they satisfy WP:RS, but they're apparently better at counting than FIBA ;) ).

I'm also inclined to reduce the painful editorializing in the #Medal table section, explaining all the minutia how and when FIBA changed their rankings and how they misspelled "Yugoslavia" and miscalculated US medals. Per WP:CALC, we are permitted to do routine calculations, such as adding up medals, according to team classification brought up by consensus (and I hope we have one for the changes I introduced). No such user (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Your first edit was perfectly right, with your second one you brought errors into the article. is certainly no appropriate and convenient source for that. Only FIBA has to decide which medals count for which country and that is well cited in the article. Here is the source we have to follow: . "Our own" treatment of the team's pages need to be changed not vice versa.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 14:49, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * How can you say that some private site can be better at counting than FIBA????????--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 14:52, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hold on. I made the change in good faith and explained myself on the talk page. FIBA seems to change their mind every so often, and it is contradictory to how our articles are organized: Yugoslavia national basketball team stops at 1991, while Serbia and Montenegro national basketball team redirects to Serbia national basketball team. After the last round of reverts at the latter, S&M medals are not accounted for on any article. Either we split all articles, or keep S&M achievements under Serbia, its legal successor, as we did for Serbia and Montenegro national handball team, Serbia and Montenegro men's national volleyball team Serbia and Montenegro national water polo team (but not Serbia and Montenegro national football team, which is separate). What FIBA did on that page makes the least sense: they summed up all the medals for "Yugoslavia", and there is broad consensus on other sports teams and articles that Yugoslavia≠FR Yugoslavia, rump country having about the third of territory of population. I don't think this is a tenable situation, and we cannot just parrot the international federations, because they're often inconsistent among themselves and even within themselves (FIBA in particular, quote: FIBA considers the Basketball Federation of Serbia and Serbia national team as the direct and sole successors of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro basketball federation and its team, respectively). It seems we would need a broad RfC, all-round edit-warring is really problematic. No such user (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * And another point: please refer to Talk:Serbia men's national basketball team, and FIBA's medal history from 2006 linked therein . Apparently, "some private site can be better at counting than FIBA" (as evidenced from their USA miscount). I stand firmly of the opinion that FIBA's count in their latest whim should not be parroted. No such user (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wikpedia has to follow FIBA as the world governing body of basketball, Wikipedia has not to judge whether FIBA is right in their decisions and FIBA only changed their mind once, not every so often. Your green quotation is from 2006 and obviously outdated and not the current point of view of FIBA. Every sporting governing body has it's own oppinion, so how the situation is in handball, volleyball, water polo or football is irrelevant to another sport. And I think is totally obvious that how our articles are organized is the sole personal oppinion of the authors. There is a reason why Wikipedia declares itself to be not a reliable source.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * is from 2006!!! I think that says everything, it's outdated. This is the actual medal table: --Anaxagoras13 (talk) 16:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Wikpedia has to follow FIBA as the world governing body of basketball – no it does not. WP:CONSENSUS and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. Let's leave it at that for the moment. No such user (talk) 16:09, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Of course Wikipedia has, otherwise it's Original Research and personal oppinion!--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 16:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Counting medals comes under WP:CALC, "routine calculations", which is generally exempt from WP:OR. As to what to do when sources disagree, see WP:ASSERT. It is undisputed fact that SFR Yugoslavia has won 8 World Cup medals, FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro 2 and Serbia 1. How we present that information is subject to editorial consensus. No such user (talk) 16:21, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I already cited the ACTUAL medal table by FIBA twice, all other "self-contradictory " sources are from 2006 and please show me 12 of them. It is not our editorial consensus.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Non sources found yet?--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 18:21, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Count the medals as FIBA the official world body counts them. Serbia started with 2007, that's how it should be counted. Prior to that it should be SFR Yugoslavia, and FR Yugoslavia (which should not be redirected to Serbia). The biggest problem here is that SFR Yugoslavia, FR Yugoslavia / Serbia Montenegro, and Serbia should all have separate articles. Serbian national team article should not be taking credit for when it was the nation of FR Yugoslavia. This is just basic common sense, and how FIBA counts it officially, which is the official way it factually is. I don't see how the personal opinions of site editors can be justified to overrule what are basic facts on that issue. None of this would be a problem, if we would just separate the FR Yugoslavia article from the Serbia article. Regardless, it was two different countries, and two different national team histories officially.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Deleting, wrong argument. Sorry. Asturkian (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * As a compromise, I support splitting SFRY, S&M and Serbia medals in the table in this article. That is obviously the correct thing to do, as the setup with merged SFRY and S&M medals is simply nonsensical (except for the name, those two countries have practically nothing in common), whatever FIBA published in their last show of incompetence. As for splitting S&M and Serbia articles, it makes sense, and I'm neutral on the issue, but good luck with that – I foresee you will encounter a strong pushback. No such user (talk) 08:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

If there is a vote, I would vote not to split them as it is only a region that gets the independence from a country. I doesn't seem logic if Catalonia gets the independence from Spain to separate the Spain before and after, or to separate the FRG from the re-unified Germany as it is done with the GDR. Anyway, should Wikipedia have the same criteria in all sports? Seems unlogic to merge both teams in football, waterpolo, volleyball, handball, etc. and to separate them in basketball, rugby, ice hockey and the Olympics. Or all or no one. Asturkian (talk) 08:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The criteria is made by the governing bodies. FIFA treats it other than FIBA or FIVB or IRB, every sport is different. It's logical that we follow the governing body's policy on it, so it can be different for different sports.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 12:13, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The medal table you refer to is generated from the database, and is not particularly useful for jumping to conclusions. What we do know from their official statements is that The Basketball Federation of Serbia will retain the place of the former Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro as a FIBA member. . What exactly happened with FR Yugoslavia after the suspension around 1995 is hard to ascertain. I think it's hard to ascertain what is their actual policy on the issue, and you're reading too much from a single page that does not provide any details as to the reasons. No such user (talk) 15:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * It is not up to us to judge whether FIBA is nonsensical or incompetent. Wikipedia do not jude but reflects knowledge and facts.--Anaxagoras13 (talk) 12:24, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Following 's theory about FIBA incongruences in naming teams, in the archive website I can see this:
 * Yugoslavia 1965–2002
 * Serbia and Montenegro 2003–2006
 * Serbia 2007–present

Looking at this absurd, separating also FRY from SCG, and looking to the statement about the admission of Montenegro and Serbia's retain about SCG, can we still argue for separating FRY/SCG from SRB? Asturkian (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Basketball SFR Yugoslavia, SR Jugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro,Serbia
This needs to change, because it's not true. First, Yugoslavia, which ceased to exist in 1991-92 with 6 republics, can not receive medals from the new state of Yugoslavia, which has two states. The UN recognized Yugoslavia in 2000 and Serbia later on as a legal successor. The UN Charter is more important than the FIBA ​​Statute. How can medals be won after 1995 to join Communist Yugoslavia with a star on a flag that ceased to exist in 1992? That's a lot of mistakes and needs to change. Medals won from 1995-2018 should be given to the UN Charters about legal succession to Serbia or to all individually classify Yugoslavia without a star, Yugoslavia with the star and Serbia. Yugoslavia with flag with star that does not exist cant get medals from another country won 1995 and etc. See how volleyball recognizes all medals to Serbia as a legal successor. Medals got a state that does not exist? Funny and inaccurate. Serbs that won medals 1995,1997,1998,1999,2001,2002 with sweat and blood and fight got nothing? Ridiculous.
 * Apparently you didn't see the very long discussion just above this section. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

What discussion? That amateur FIBA on their site put flag of democrtaic FR Yugoslavia from 1992-2006 whitout star that win 8 gold in Eurobasket and 5 gold on World Cup what is not correct. SFR Yugoslavia with star on flag existed from 1945-1992. Second, you putt here that communist Yugoslavia with star on flag and with population 22.000.000 who existed from 1945-1992 won medals in 1995,1997,1998,2001,2002 when population was 7.000.000 people and that country was gone and ceased to exicted and we give them some medals, that not excisted country with star on flag. Rubbish. Big error too. Diffrent countrys and differnet flags on Wiki(with star) and Fiba(whitout star) who won 5 golds and 8 golds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VucoCar (talk • contribs) 13:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Just to be sure, you're saying that FIBA is not right on the tournament that FIBA itself runs, and we should believe you. Is that right? As of now, FIBA does this:
 * Yugoslavia, both with and without the red star, from 1947 to 2002.
 * Serbia and Montenegro, using the flag of Yugoslavia without the red star, from 2003 to 2006.
 * Serbia, from 2007 to the present.
 * Their medal table has Yugoslavia with 5-3-2, and Serbia with 0-1-0. In EuroBasket, that team has 8-5-4. SCG and Serbia didn't make it to the top 10 in EuroBasket, but checking it out, SCG won no medals, and Serbia has 0-2-0. What do you propose to do? Howard the Duck (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Other articles now reflect the medal standings of each political countries. So the FR Yugoslavia (without red star, consisting only Serbia+Montenegro) is seperated from the big Yugoslavia. And ofcourse seperated from Serbia and seperated from Montenegro. The small Yugoslavia is put together with SCG. YUG -1992; FRY/SCG 1992-2006. I think VucoCar is suggesting this. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 16:00, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * What WP:RS is reflecting these new medal standings? Are these based on anything that FIBA published recently? Howard the Duck (talk) 10:55, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes,thank you very much Pelmeen10. This country with 2 federal states(Serbia,Montenegro) exicted from 1992-2006 and is physically impossible to win medals from 1945-1992 that is won by big country  with 6 federal states(Croatia,Bosnia,Slovenia,Serbia,Macedonia,Montenegro). FIBA made mistake and that is possible because in real life we all make mistakes in our lives.Some FIBA ​​official, for example from Malta or Poland, can not know the true history of Yugoslavia and Serbia. I am from Yugoslavia and this is historically correct: " won in World Cup 3-3-2 and won 2-0-0 and  0-1-0. On Eurobasket  won 5-5-3 and  won 3-0-1 and Serbia won 0-2-0 medals." It is historically correct and otherwise not possible. Just look up the flags in the tables by years of winning gold, silver and bronze, and everything will be clear to you. Who won the gold at the 1990 World Cup and who won 2002? Just look at the flags.
 * "FIBA made mistake and I'm right" without any WP:RS that will overrule FIBA in a tournament that they themselves run has to be given extraordinary sources. For example, does the current Serbian (or the SCG) basketball federation recognize those Yugoslavian teams to have 5-5-3 medals or 3-0-1? Do other sources have a medal table that shows what you want to happen? Howard the Duck (talk) 00:41, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes Duck u are maybe historian like me but i do not know from wich country u are? Maybe you're from the Caribbean or Asia or North Pole and you know nothing from Europe and basketball. Hahaha maybe my president Tito who ruled until his death 1980  he also rules  who is exicted 1992-2006. Hahaha, funnyiest thing how FIBA officialy put flag of state that have 5-3-2 medals in World Cup and that state exicted only from 1992-2006 and recognised from UN year 2000. You also put here flag that won 5-3-2 but FIBA officialy put this flag  http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/keyfigures/p/rc//tid//tid2//lid_38179_ct/0/cid/WMM/_//index.html. Hahaha what a rubbish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro this country exicted from 1992-2006 and cant win medals in basketball from 1945-1992. This state exicted from 1945-1992 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia and that state win medals in years after WW2 to 1992.
 * Is there a WP:RS that states that old Yugoslavia got this, and new Yugoslavia got this, and Serbia got this? Howard the Duck (talk) 12:23, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

"The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFR Yugoslavia or SFRY) was a country located in Central and Southeastern Europe that existed from its foundation in the aftermath of World War II until its dissolution in 1992 amid the Yugoslav Wars." http://uca.edu/politicalscience/dadm-project/europerussiacentral-asia-region/64-socialist-federal-republic-of-yugoslavia-1945-1992/. How that country who ceased to exist 1992 can win gold medals in 1998,2002? With magic maybe. See the waterpolo,handball,voleyball World championship and European championship on WIKI and see medal table in those sports for ,,. All make normal medal table only history ameteurs FIBA revisioned history and make history from their heads and not from UN and official world documents etc. FINA say one thing and FIBA difrrent for same states. And just another digression. All medals and trophies in basketball are in the possession of the basketball federation of Serbia and Serbian players who played from 1992 to today. And that is a fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VucoCar (talk • contribs) 16:52, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for sharing that to me. Now if you can present a FIBA source (or of some authority challenging the FIBA authority, such as the Serbian(?) basketball federation or anything basketball-related that has a medal table that shows what you want, I'd gladly change it for you. For a disinterested observer (such as me) choosing between a passionate person such as you and FIBA on determining who's correct in determining the medal table of the FIBA Basketball World Cup, FIBA's flagship event, I'd probably pick the people running the show. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your views on this matter and I respect that too. You, like most, just follow the FIBA ​​website they published. Previously, FIBA ​​correctly led the medal history and then almost introduced it by the code of the state and then it ruined everything and inaccurately started to lead. I suppose they could not separate the code for the two Yugoslavia, so they all attributed it to one country, although they are two different countries, both by the UN and by years of existence and by different flag. We will get soon the new president of FIBA, so I hope that it will correct this, but I really doubt. It's easier for them to stay like this than change something again. Thank you for listening to me and all the best to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VucoCar (talk • contribs) 09:59, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't despair. This wasn't the last time FIBA flubbed around on this issue. Who knows, later, it'll be Croatians causing the long discussion such as this one. But until that time comes, or if WP:RS are presented to the contrary, the revision stays. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:13, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

SFRJ is not SRJ but is SERBIA
You are all idiots or you do not understand the matter because you come from Estonia, Uruguay, Guatemala, etc. How can a Yugoslavia SFRJ with star on flag that has fallen apart and ceased to exist in 1992 can win gold in 1998 and 2002. That was all won by Yugoslavia without a star on the flag that is actually Serbia. And just so you know all the medals, trophies and cups are in the Basketball Federation of Serbia and in Serbia and Belgrade. And you here on wikipedia and FIBA ​​can run all sorts of inaccurate nonsense and pervert history.
 * Gotta ask the idiots who run the tournament, and read the lengthy discussion above. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * FR Yugoslavia medals belong to Serbia

Also u can see quiz about Serbia on FIBA official site
 * https://www.fiba.basketball/news/PR-no-22-Montenegro-becomes-213th-FIBA-Member
 * https://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2022/news/test-your-eurobasket-knowledge-serbia-edition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.228.99.46 (talk) 23:11, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * FIBA is kinda inconsistent with this in their publications and press releases and videos and everything, but officially, Serbia only has 2 medals in the World Cup per their Fiba website. Yugoslavia's medals aren't passed to Serbia. Engr. Smitty   Werben 23:18, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It's apparent FIBA thinks SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia is one team, separate from SCG and Serbia. Perhaps Yugoslavia national basketball team's scope should extend until the country was renamed. Howard the Duck (talk) 04:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. However, users already added the two golds from 1998 and 2002 to Serbia national basketball team. If FIBA considers them seperate on the medal table, shouldn't they be removed from the Serbian team article? Speun (talk) 15:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Good question. This is something that should be discussed at Talk:Serbia national basketball team, not here. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, mate! Problem is that it has been discussed countless of times on multiple articles. It has already been established, that Serbia doesn't inherit the medals on their main team talkpage, but it always gets re-added endlessly. Speun (talk) 22:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * SCG and FR Yugoslavia is the same country. Check out this FIBA ​​presentation from EuroBasket 2022. Medals from 1995 belong to Serbia. This is official FIBA channel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnkoQgKeUPk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.116 (talk) 08:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * FIBA is saying two things at once; when it comes to actual medal tables, they actually have a medal table that we can follow without doing any WP:SYNTH. Let's follow that actual medal table used by FIBA. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:48, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Why don't we make two explanatory tables? (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.4.36.182 (talk) 09:23, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Because FIBA provides one table only. That's the one we should stick with, not just create an imaginary one, which would just confuse readers anyways. Speun (talk) 22:04, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Then why is the volleyball world championship page not created according to the FIVB table (or European by CEV)? On the talk page you have proof that all the medals belong to Russia, but they are separated in the table. Also, FIBA ​​has not included any new data in the table since 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.51 (talk) 13:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a valid reason, and I would not oppose that specific table to be removed from this article. All post-2013 data on that table is WP:OR. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

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