Talk:FN FAL/Archive 1

Australia/NZ stuff
Why the comment on the Australians being told to keep magazines because of shortages of funding? It's very standard practice here in NZ to keep empty magazines for three reasons: 1) to allow you to bomb up the mags again as soon as practical. 2) to deny enemy 'sign'. 3) to deny the enemy equipment. We get our asses kicked if we leave our gear lying around a battlefield, is it not the same elsewhere? TinyPirate 01:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

We need a photo! David.Monniaux 11:17, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How were Australian tactics in Vietnam dictated by this weapon? That's unclear and needs justification. Rst

I agree with the above sentiments. New Zealand and Australian tactics tended to be off the main tracks. Also the experience of the Malayan Emergency helped their tactics. I'm not sure the FN FAL affected them.

Also used by New Zealand. Did NZ buy them from Australia? Rst

No New Zealand obtained them commercially from Armscor in South Africa. Whirling

Actually, New Zealand did buy them from Australia. New Zealand's SLRs were clearly inch-pattern SLRs made in Australia. These are photos of NZ solders in Vietnam carrying an Australian SLRs and not South African R1s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CMarshall (talk • contribs) 13:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

About tinypirate comment. we may not use the fn fal but its common us practice to just leave the magizine on the ground once there finished. im nbot sure about the Special opeeration

I dunno who the semi-literate ass above may be, but it has NEVER been "us practice" to abandon empty magazines. Magazines are retained and reloaded in US service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.28.168.232 (talk) 11:31, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I am an ex-aussie digger from the 80's. During the period I was in the army it was drilled into us that we do not drop our mags. They were to be stowed in our mag pouches as we changed to a charged mag, or as soon as the tactical situation allowed. The reason given was that you could recharge them later...and if you didnt have them you couldnt charge them! I also edited a portion of the Australian post, someone had put something in there about not being allowed to use them on "fully automatic", not only was it prohibited..it was also something outside the normal range of the weapon, the sear on the Australian SLR was semi-auto only. There was a trick involving a small piece of "hoochie" cord, which would allow the rifle to fire in a "fully automatic" mode, but that is a trick best not elaborated on in this forum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.59.195.104 (talk) 18:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I certainly observed the ad-hoc mod that allowed full auto (British Army L1A1/FN FAL) - a small piece of card lifting the sear. Never saw live rounds fired this way, just blanks. In conjunction with this mod it was common to see the 30 round 7.62 LMG mags being used rather than the standard issue 20 round mags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.222.53 (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

not an assault rifle
changed "assault rifle" to "battle rifle" to correct error and clarify internal conflict

In that case, the infobox on the right needs to be changed, as it's listed as an assault rifle there, but it's described as a battle rifle in the main text. Geoff B 00:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The assault rifle page states that an assault rifle "is a type of automatic rifle generally defined as ... chambering intermediate-powered ammunition." This article clearly says that the FAL "utilize[s] a full-power rifle cartridge." An FAL is a battle rifle, not an assualt rifle.


 * You're correct, the FAL cannot be considered an assault rifle. I'll make it like the M14 article and put "Selective fire rifle" on the spec_type field. --Squalla 18:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

.280 British
I think the page needs discussion about Britains involvement with FN to create the FAL. It was originally meant to be a select fire rifle in a medium sized caliber much like the Stg. 44. The British aided FN in medium powered rifle cartridges and came up with .280 British but changed to 7.62x51 mm NATO (.308 Win.) with the standardization of NATO calibers and pressure from Americans. El Jorge 23:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Australian AR was a L1A2, not a L2A1
In Australian service the Automatic Rifle (AR) version of the SLR was known as the L1A2, not the L2A1. For a reference see http://www.raeme.net/toc.php?cat=armoury&item=2


 * That contradicts the information from every other source on the matter. Doesn't mean its wrong, but I've never heard of that.  Also, since the weapons were obviously quite seperate, it would not make sense that the Automatic Rifle (with its full-auto, heavy barrel, lack of handguards, bipod, and different rear sights) would be a variant of the rifle. Any other information confirming this is welcome. -- Thatguy96 15:18 May 30 2006


 * I suspect that this fellows use of L1A2 is due to a slip of the fingers or faulty memory. Collector Grade Publications' authoritative UK and Commonwealth FALs clearly uses the designation L2A1, and even quotes from Aussie manuals and reports. One such manual is Technical Brochure, Rifle Equipments 7.62mm L1A1, L2A1, L1A1-F1 published by SAF Lithgow, the manufacturer of the rifles.  --D.E. Watters 21:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Out of curiousity what was the L1A1-F1? -- Thatguy96 18:22 May 30 2006


 * It was a special model made up for Papua-New Guinea Forces. The buttstock and flashhider were both shortened.  --D.E. Watters 15:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Of more interest might be the Papua-New Guinea version of the L2A1. The L2A1 Heavy Barrel AR made for Papua-New Guinea is known as the "Toilet Plunger". It has a very unusual muzzle brake with a large somewhat flat profile roughly 2 inches (50mm) in diameter with holes around the outer periphery. Many of these were imported into the US during the 90's as parts sets.

I find it interesting that the L2A1 Australian FAL Variant has so many nicknames: the "AR", the "Bitch Gun" and the "Toilet Plunger". G. Scott 24NOV10

Fiction references
I have moved the list of references to films/tv/video games to a new pages and replaced the section with a link to it for the following reasons: See Heckler & Koch MP5 / Heckler & Koch MP5 in popular culture or MAC-10 / MAC-10 in popular culture) for similar ...in popular culture pages) for similar efforts. Deon Steyn 12:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is to keep it the article clean and uniform with other similar articles
 * Reduces overall length (already quite long) in keeping with size guidelines (see Article size)
 * Help with inclusion into pages like List of firearms in video games and List of firearms in films

Answer to Question B
In regards to question B. Yes, the M1 Carbine family served a limited role as a designated marksman's weapon. Outfitted with the infrared M2 Sniperscope and flash hider, it was used in Korea and to some extent Vietnam. El Jorge 19:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand Army/Air Force
I've edited the section on the New Zealand army since it said that they used American M16s, which is not true, they use Aussie F88 Steyrs. The section seems to have been written by someone from the Royal New Zealand Air Force, who seems to have got the Steyr and M16 mixed up, or perhaps was recalling a period from when the M16 was in service.(before the Steyr replaced it)58.104.198.156 15:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wars
on the info box, it stated "cold war" only. the FAL has been used in MANY MANY wars, and even more if you consider conflicts. i can't think of many off the top of my head except for the Vietnam War (used by Australian & New Zealand army, SASR , NZSAS and the french foreign legion). please help me out with this, i'm sorry but it's dammright disgusting that the M16 article gets more attention then this rifle that has had near more overall use around the world.

How about these:

Vietnam Rhodesia, Congo, well heck...about every war in Africa, Faulklands (Both sides used it!), Libya-Chad Isreali-Arab(6-days, Yom Kippur, Suez conflict), Kashmir, Sri-Lanka, Iran-Iraq, Desert Storm Rhodesian Bush War (Second Chimurenga)

G. Scott, 16 Oct 2006

I must add, the FN FAL was used in the war of Cyprus in 1974 by both sides. The greeks had greek assembled FN-FALs that had just arrived on the island (to replace the M1 Garand), and were used by many units. The turks, although having the G3 as their service rifle, they also had a number of G1 rifles (german made FN-FAL)--Xristar (talk) 10:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Rhodesia?
I believe they were used by Rhodesia, including during the Rhodesian Bush War. Not having any more information than that, I haven't put that in the article. Does anyone have more info, or pictures to confirm this? rst 05:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

--i can confirm that the british SASR used L1A1s in Rhodesia

--I just added a brief section on the use of FAL rifles by Rhodesia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.174.82.215 (talk) 01:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Advertising
Think we can get rid of the advertising for DSArms? 24.28.19.63

We can, and did, apparently... However I don't know that this is the best move. Regardless of whether it may be considered "free advertising", DS Arms is in fact a current producer of the FN FAL rifle. Their product is claimed to be a completely new rifle, not a rebuild from de-militarized parts, and they have been doing it for many years now. Given this fact, they would indeed be one of only a few makers of the FAL still with rifles in production. Also of importance is the fact that DS Arms is one of only a few US makers that ever made the rifle. Based upon these facts, I would be in favor of including a statement in the USA FAL section which merely indicates that the FAL is still in production by DS Arms. FWIW, it turned me off too when I saw it in the article, but after thinking it over, I understand why it should be there.

Is there any evidence that indicates the DS Arms SA-58 FAL is not a completely new, US produced, production FN FAL rifle? and that they have been so for a decade or more? I also had a FAL made by Springfield Armory,for the life of me I can't remember the designation used by them,getting old,an excellent rifle with superb accuracy and function.Safn1949 02:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Ok,the one I had was the SAR-4800Safn1949 02:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC) G. Scott 23 Oct 2006
 * IIRC Springfield Armory SAR-48s were not new production FALs, but built from surplus recievers (Greek and something else IIRC). -- Thatguy96 03:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Springfield Armory SAR-48s were new rifles, manufactured in Brazil by IMBEL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.28.168.232 (talk) 11:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding more images.
This article seems broing with mostly text, and very few images. thta's why i'm adding images (existing, already uploaded) to the erticles where I feel appropiate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TOMNORTHWALES (talk • contribs) 23:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

History of the FN FAL
I believe and have read that the original design/idea was thought up in 1940. The designer fled to the UK upon the German invasion of Belgium to avoid the Germans learning of this weapon. He then tried to talk the British into producing them. They declined as it was to hard to change all there factory's at the time and they where busy fighting the battle of Britain. After that I believe they made 2 or 3 prototypes although never mass produced them.

As for what happened next Im not sure. I read this in the book Military Small arms of the 20th century. Although that was a few years ago. Ill try to find time to re read it. Wonx2150 05:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Saive's rescued prototype was for the SAFN, not the FAL. D.E. Watters 06:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

designation?
The article's title is "FN FAL" and at some point it seamlessly changes to "L1A1" as a synonym. I'm assuming this is a military designation, but it would be nice to have a short text at the very beginning explaining this, as the (non-explanatory) references to "L1A1" are numerous. -- MiG 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have instances? Because a quick look at the history and introductions and I don't even see L1A1 mentioned once, and in the Argentina section under users, which is the first section, it clearly says "British-made L1A1s."  In fact, a quick use of the "find" function shows that only the mention of the L1 in the New Zealand portion of the article comes without a direct mention of it being a military designation or related to the British military desingation.  -- Thatguy96 11:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The term "L1A1" is used an amazing fourty times (CTRL-F) and it's not mentioned as a separate designation. As I said, a number that high warrants some sort of introductory text, for example saying that "the FN FAL is produced under licence in the UK, British made FN FAL rifles are known as L1A1." Does this sound about right? As I'm pressed for time these days I'll probably forget to check this page, feel free to add it to the article if it's correct! -- MiG 22:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I still want an example, because as I said, if you look at the actual text it is relatively self-explanatory. In fact, the first instance of the term in the article is "...or are British-made L1A1s."  The second instance of the term in the article is "...improved version of the FAL rifle, designated the L1A1 rifle by Australia and Great Britain, and the C1 by Canada."  I fail to see an issue. -- Thatguy96 23:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure why you're battling this so forcefully. A line added to the introduction won't diminish the text, won't bother those in the know and will help those that read over this line ("... designated the L1A1 rifle ...") which is well hidden in the body text (second chapter, third paragraph). You don't reckon that no less than *fourty* instances of a specific designation deserve a proper introduction in the very first paragraph? -- MiG 20:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm "battling...so forcefully" because you suggested that it was impossible to discern from the article, and that of the 40 appearances "it seamlessly changes" (which is untrue) and that it is "non-explanatory" (which is also untrue). The reality is that the term's first instance in the article clearly states what I have already mentioned, and the second instance of it also mentions the connection.  To say that the L1A1 designation appears without it being explained, as you have posited, is simply false.  I see no problem in adding what you have suggested, but I see no reason.  If you would like you are more than welcome to do so.  I just want it clear for the record that the L1A1 designation is not as cryptic as one might infer from your responses. In fact, if you actually read the 40 instances (the majority of which are in the UK and Australia), none are out of context, and no entry using the term with the sole exception of the New Zealand entry does not explain the term in the first sentence in which it appears.  -- Thatguy96 21:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I was under the impression that you were vehemently opposed to this fairly simple addition, which kept me wondering. I guess it comes down to either being familiar with weapons or not. I think the article will be improved for those not familiar with the FN FAL by adding this particular line. Done! -- MiG 09:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

DSA-58OSW battle carbine
Shouldn't this article be merged with the US comertial FAl varients subsection. While I have seen photo's of it being tested in US Army hands as is it is not a notable varient.Then again given the amount of information in the article it could also be deleated. Paulwharton 03:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree that that article should be merged with this one. The person who created that has been blitzing new articles of non-notable variants. -- Thatguy96 03:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

30-round LMG magazine (UK section)
I'm not very happy with this statement. The LMG magazine was unreliable with 30 rounds. When used by the infantry, they usually only filled it with 28 rounds as the weight of the rounds was too much for the leaf spring in the magazine (the LMG magazine being designed to work upside down). The 20-round magazine had a stronger coil spring. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TinyMark (talk • contribs). "The magazine from the 7.62 mm version of the L4 also fitted the L1A1 however the magazine spring was not sufficient to the task of providing enough upward pressure to feed rounds correctly." This quote is from the "Bren Gun" article! TinyMark 17:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely clear here as to what the problem is. Your first comment and the "quote" from the Bren Gun article basically say the same thing. -- Thatguy96 19:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually filling it with 28 rounds would still over-feed it. The thirty round magazine would be fit with anywhere from 25 to 27 rounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.253.170 (talk) 15:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Article rewrite?
This entry needs some serious work. The users section consumes most of this page. We need a detailed technical run-down of the design. Koalorka (talk) 02:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Move production/use section to new article?
Seriously, it's gettin' a mighty long folks. Ominae (talk) 01:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think a better approach then a seperate article would to look at some other articles production sections of the same subject (AK47) rings a bell. Royal Orleans  02:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I would vote for a compromise. Where the header of a table like the one in the AK-47 article links to a separate page where the more detailed information could be held. -- Thatguy96 (talk) 15:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

FN P90
Why was the FN P90 not referenced at the bottom? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.71.23.120 (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Because the P90 submachine gun has little to nothing to do with the FAL, with perhaps the sole exception being that they are both FN products. -- Thatguy96 (talk) 19:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pepe la pepper (talk • contribs) 19:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Light Recoil?
I believe that instead of the article reading "Despite using a full-power .30 cartridge, the FAL's recoil is relatively light.", it should read as "Among the 7.62x51 NATO battle rifles at the time, the FAL had relatively light recoil due to the adjustable gas system being able to bleed off extra gas used to cycle the weapon." It makes a bit more sense, as it gives a basis of comparison. Among other things, there are many little bits of the FAL's workings missing. You can show how the weapon is field-stripped, some FAL top covers used to mount optics, and also a few diagrams to help show how the FAL works.--Hunt3r.j2 (talk) 07:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Great suggestions. Why not just implement them yourself? Go ahead: be bold DisarrayGeneral  08:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Unparsable 1st sentence
The 1st sentence reads:


 * The Fusil Automatique Léger (Light Automatic Rifle) or FAL is a 7.62x51 NATO self-loading, (with exceptions) selective fire rifle produced by the Belgian armaments manufacturer Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FN) during the Cold War, and adopted by many North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) countries.

To what does "(with exceptions)" apply? To the "self-loading"? Or "selective fire"? Or to the rifle's manufacturer? Or to its period of production? Or to the countries of adoption? The sentence needs to be broken up into several, I think, but I lack the knowledge to perform the copy-edit. Please fix.

Paul Beardsell (talk) 01:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It means that the FN FAL was a self-loading select-fire rifle, but some countries, like the Commonwealth, adopted the FAL but they disabled the fully automatic function. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.107.199 (talk) 23:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sigh. It only means that to you because you know that already.  Readers of WP are here to learn stuff they don't know.  The 1st sentence remains unparsable.  My original comment still applies.  Punctuation might help.  I'm not sure quite how to fix it, as I know not a lot about gun terminology.  That's why I'm writing this.  Paul Beardsell (talk) 04:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a valid point Paul; the exception is not noted, and if it's referring to the "selective fire aspect, it shouldn't precede it in the sentence. It's nonsensical so I've just removed it. DisarrayGeneral  05:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanx! Paul Beardsell (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Canadian C1A1 & C2A1
The two main differences between the Canadian version of the FN FAL and that used by other nations were the shortening of the bolt cover (half the length of the one on the standard FN FAL)and the addition to it of a speed load guide (to quickly reload the magazines from 5 round munition clips, similar to the US M1). The second modification was to the trigger guard which could be swivelled downward and stored in the pistol grip to allow use of the weapon while wearing arctic mittens.204.50.113.43 (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The C1/C1A1/C2A1 used the original FN designed stripper clip topcover as pioneered for the USA. The other changes were all in line with the Commonwealth pattern as finalized by the Rifle Steering Committee, so not unique to Canada. Interestingly, most of these features such as the the winter trigger guard and simplified/improved gas system were developed by Canadian Arsenals and Harrington and Richardson in the USA. G. Scott 20NOV10

This section needs improvements. G. Scott 20NOV10

Contradiction
The following sections appear to contradict themselves:


 * "Belgium was the first country to adopt both the FAL and FALO (heavy barrel FAL) for its armed forces in the 1950s."
 * "Canada was the first country to use the FAL."
 * "Venezuela was the first country after Belgium to adopt the FN FAL in 1954 and until recently it was the main assault rifle of the Venezuelan army."

It's worth noting that none of these have citations, so it's difficult to tell which are correct. (I'd assume the first one is, but the latter two still present problems in that they contradict each other.) Anybody with good documentation care to correct these? -- 156.34.220.52 (talk) 21:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Canada was the first country to produce the FAL under license from FN. Belgium's military adopted it first, but Belgium is where it was invented. The Venezuela remark baffles me - but maybe its true...?? Engr105th (talk) 02:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * From the quote box under the Canadian section:
 * "Canada adopted the FAL in 1954, the first country in the world to actually ante up and order enough rifles for meaningful troop trials."...R. Blake Stevens


 * A seeming contradiction comes from the same author who states that the United States ordered 3,300 T48 pattern FALs from FN in Autumn 1953. Why he sees 2000 rifles later as more substantial than 3300 previous...I can't hazard a guess. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 22:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Followup from same source:
 * Canada places its order January 1954...also in the same month the United Kingdom adopts the FAL in two configurations, X8E1 & X8E2. On Feb 1, 1954 a heated debate breaks out in the British House of Commons as this adoption was very badly received by the Opposition. L1A1 would not be adopted until after March 1957.
 * Belgian army orders 100 FALs for trial in January 1954...next order for 14,100 is January 1955 to replace the SAFN (formal adoption).
 * Venezuela orders 5000 "Fusil Automatico Livianos", yet a different pattern firing 7mm cartridges, on November 30, 1954. They would later order replacement barrels and other parts to convert these to standard FALs dropping the Liviano..also later orders were for standard metric 7.62mm FALs. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 00:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention that Israel had already it in 1954 and used it in battle in 1956 in the Suez conflict, where the FAL positively impressed the IDF... G. Scott 20NOV10

FN FAL in the Swedish armed forces.
At the end of the 50's the Swedish armed forces obtained 100 FN FAL's as main armament for the Swedish paratroops, named AK1. The armament in the Swedish armed forces at that time did not include any assault or combat rifles, only smg's, light and heavy mg's and Mauser repeating rifles. FN FAL was also included in tests by the Swedish armed forces at the early 60's when the forces would introduce an assult-/combat rifle as a main armament. However those tests resulted in the choise of the German G3 as AK4 (FN FAL was named AK1, AK2 and AK3 was Swedish constructions).

PE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.183.161 (talk) 22:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You can include that information in the article if you can cite a reliable source. ROG5728 (talk) 22:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Need to include citation on the Special Swedish 6.5x55mm FAL's. G. Scott  20NOV10

United Kingdom - L1A1
Still in use with British Army in 1992 not 1991 as the article says, I fired the last one at Purleet ranges in July 1992. Pandaplodder (talk) 09:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure you did. I fired an APWT with mine at Tregantle in July 1992, just before leaving that unit, and there was no replacement date for them in the pipeline. There were definitely quite a few still around in 1993 and I think a few lurked on in the depths of the TA until early/mid 1994. FergusM1970 (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Anyway. Have cleaned up the L1A1 section a bit. I still have the L1A1 PAM at home (I know, sad...) so when I get there I'll dig it out and do a bit more work. FergusM1970 (talk) 01:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Israel and South Africa use of FAL and AK is "dubious"?
Nothing "dubious" about it.

Israel manufactured a version of the FAL in the 1960s. They dumped it soon after due to persistent problems with reliability. It was replaced by the Galil, which is little more than a 5.56mm version of the AK-47.

Agreed. However Israel was one of the first users of the FAL, albiet covertly. They procured large quantities from FN starting in 1954, ultimately securing license and producing at IMI until the early 1980's. This encompassed 3 distinct evololutions, the M1, M1A and M3 FAL versions. By virtually all accounts, the FAL served well starting in the Suez conflict up through the Six Days and Yom Kippur wars. Although the IDF flirted with thier homegrown Galil (Kalashnikov variant), by all accounts it was not a popular weapon (in Israel), and is no longer in service. Anectodal evedence indicates the soldiers much preferred the original AK47 to the Galil. The FAL was only completely replaced in the early 80's after years of the USA sending large quantities of Free M16's, which proved the effectiveness of a modern carbine sized assualt weapon in CQB combat. The M16 is now the IDF weapon of choice. Think about this for a moment: during the years the FAL served the IDF, they didn't just win, but they pretty much routed thier enemies in every single case. For example at the end of the Yom Kippur war, the IDF was only 25 miles from Damascus AND 50 miles from Ciaro. Could you imagine such a thing today? Now they can barely get the enemy out of thier own back yards. These were countless sucessful battles fought on the ground, in the desert, and with FALs. G. Scott 20NOV10

South Africa manufactured the FAL as the Rifle R1. It was replaced by versions of the Israeli Galil rifle (an AK-47 in 5.56mm) as the Rifle R4 and Rifle R5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.28.168.232 (talk) 11:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Both countries are included in the article as users, and both have sources. They have been included in the article for months. No one said either country's use of the FAL was dubious. ROG5728 (talk) 02:05, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

South Africa procured large quantities from FN, and later secured license to produce the FAL at the Armscor factories in Lyttelton. South Africa produced three distinct versions of the FAL, the R1, R2 and R3. It was later replaced with the South African produced version of the Israeli Galil, designated the R4. G. Scott 20NOV10

Queries & observations
'History' section Para 2 "Unlike some other tactical rifles, reliable high-caps for the FN FAL are quite inexpensive". What is a 'high-cap', reliable or not ?
 * "High-cap" is an airsoft walt term. FergusM1970 (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

There is no mention of the rifle's nickname "Right hand of the free world." Seems it should be in there somewhere, but I am not sure where.

'Israel' section Para 1 a. "They (the FN FAL),were effective up to 730m". Somebody has written on the edit page: "This sentence doesn't make much sense". I agree. Indeed, I would go as far as to say that 730m sounds: (a) too precise and (b) too ambitious. If memory serves correctly, the British army taught the L1A1 SLR thus: Maxium effective range, as an individual weapon - 300m; as one in a section (squad) - 600m.
 * Your memory is doing fine. Individual range 300m, section range 600m. FergusM1970 (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

TTK chiming in here: The maximum effective range of full-powered 7.62mm rifle rounds is limited in practice to the range at which the tracer round flames out (particularly in the case of automatic fire). Depending on the model of tracer this typically ranges from 600 to 900 meters. 730 meters is 800 yards, which is the minimum guaranteed range the M62 7.62mm Tracer will reach before flaming out. TTK (talk) 18:55, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh no. The maximum effective range of the rifle is limited by its sights and the grouping capability of the weapon. There are plenty of 7.62mm sniper rifles and DMRs that are effective well beyond 730m, and with these weapons tracer isn't even an issue because it's never going to be used. I also recall being taught that UK 7.62mm tracer burned out at 1100m. FergusM1970 (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

b. "the Mauser K98 and the M1 carbine as sniper rifles". The M1 carbine as a sniper rifle, is this correct ?

'United States' section Is the last paragraph in this section really necessary ? And who is Gary Jeter when he's at home?

RASAM 20:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

'Production and Use - Australia' Section 2.2

At least towards the end of its service life, the L1A1 was not fully automatic (comment saying "fully automatic use was discouraged"). Fire selector had a marking on the body of the rifle for fully automatic, however it could only be moved between "safe" and "single shot". The Kidd 03:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The L1A1 was never fully automatic and there is no "A" marking on the receiver. There IS a third indentation for the change lever detent in what would be the "A" position, but the shoulder on the change lever prevents it being rotated past "R." FergusM1970 (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced material
I've removed a lot of material from this article - it was not sourced at all. Before we restore anything, reliable sources need to be found. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man 20:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If it keeps going at this rate, it will be a stub tomorrow and sent to AfD the following day. Is the current round of deletions (ScottGs) being done to make a point? Currently, article looks like crap. <b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b>  (<b style="color:#00C">(⊕)</b>) 22:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This may be in response to a conversation on my talk page. I invited Scottgs to this page to discuss sources and how we could use them to start re-adding material. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  22:53, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm interested in what folks have to say. Ideas on structure, what needs to be sourced, needed photos, etc. I can help with some sourcing. How can we improve the article? <b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b>  (<b style="color:#00C">(⊕)</b>) 00:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

It probably would have been a better idea to remove the text at a rate that editors can actually keep up with. For example, one unsourced subsection could have been removed per month. As it is, most of the article text is absent, and I don't think anyone will be enthusiastic about finding sources for what basically amounts to an entire article. Anyway, the information on specific international variants (e.g., the FAL as used by India) is not particularly vital to the article. The users list does mention these countries, with sources. This is not to say that the subsections shouldn't be restored when sources are found, but I think these subsections tend to go into unnecessary detail anyway. The most important text removed in your edits seems to be the information on history and FN production variants. The Remtek article in external links could be used as a starting point for restoring this text; it goes into some detail on the weapon's history and variants. ROG5728 (talk) 02:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The problem is there are few accurate resources available for a subject this esoteric. Whether vital to the article or not, a good example is the Jane's source listed for the Indian 1A, which is grossly in error. It indicates  "The 7.62 mm 1A1 self-loading rifle is a licence-produced copy of the UK 7.62 mm L1A1 self-loading rifle".

This is erroneous in two serious ways:

1 - The Indian FAL is clearly not a copy of the British L1A1. Although function is virtually identical, its design is significantly different in many respects. Furthermore, the FAL design is FN owned, it's not the UK's to licence! These fact are widely known and documented, and are simply and easily observed by anyone who has actually handled or examined both rifles.

2 - Jane's indicates the Indian FAL is "licence-produced copy". This is clearly not the case, it is either an illegal copy (FN's position) or a completely different design (India's Position). This is acknowledged by both FN and the Indian Government and there are confirming sources available, including press releases and study by Blake Steven's (The FAL Rifle).

So here we have a supposed authoritative third party source which is grossly in error. It is in error likely because while Jane's may be an authority on weapons in general, they are not an authority, a Subject Matter Expert, or a historian of the FAL rifle. Admittedly though, it is unusual for Jane's to get it this wrong. But regardless, the sources listed in the article are all strewn with mistakes, albeit most of a much lesser scale.

This is why for a truly accurate article, the content cannot be casually derived from "online" third party resources, but must be derived from authoritative sources, which in the case of a half-century old rifle design is probably limited to first hand historians, museum curators, and those who produce(d), deploy(ed) and support(ed) the FAL weapon system.

I agree that it would be much better to take it one piece at a time and get it done properly and correctly. I thought that was what was happening, and I'm sure that's what many of us have been doing here for years. We have many hours over the years invested in this article, and it is not just discouraging, disappointing and rude to have an editor to come in and wholesale (and haphazardly) eliminate the content without warning or discussion, but it is insulting and borders on vandalism.

I would like to see this restored to the decent article it nearly was. Certainly we can could come to a consensus and have it the way it should be. The starting point should not be the Remtek article, but at the least should be a true accepted authoritative sources, original sources, and only with care should we use online third party sources. Good sources would be Blake Stevens' excellent books on the FAL, or Skennerton's books on the L1A1, etc. Unfortunately though, I have little confidence at this point it is worth the time, and if I feel this way, other experts are likely to also. In fact, I know they do. They told me I was wasting my time here...

I guess the wonderful thing about Freedom of the Web is that we can just go somewhere else and do it right. And that is probably what should be done anyway if more detail is to be encompassed into the article. But certainly what we have here now with this article is a shame to all, and to the detriment of those that end up at Wikipedia first. G. Scott 24NOV10 Greetings everyone, I reverted the revert to my edit because I put the edit in as a matter of grammatical exactitude. I hope that this clears up any confusion.Keith-264 (talk) 18:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for a new page/page split for the Commonwealth/"Inch" pattern FAL's
Just putting forth a suggestion here, but, I believe that there should be a different page for the British/Australian/Canadian L1A1/C1 FAL's. To me at least they seem to be distinct enough, to be differentiated from the FN FAL page. I say this mainly because parts and magazine interchangeability is more limited between 'metric' and 'inch' guns. Compare this to, say, how there is a page on the AK-47, AKM, Romanian PM Md. 63, and Chinese Type 56 - all AK-47 derivatives, but with some changes to the design. I have put together a draft for such an article (much of it is derived from relevant sections of the main FAL article [some of which I was a contributor to], but with an original page lead, and several original sections added), and have been sitting on it for a while. If anyone would like to help with or give me feedback on the article, that would be appreciated, too. A link to the draft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:L1A1_FAL/L1A1_Self-Loading_Rifle#See_also --L1A1 FAL (talk) 23:18, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be enough detail here to require a separate article. The Australia subsection alone is larger than the Design details and History sections combined. At the very least, this article is in need of significant trimming (specifically in the Users subsections), so the best way to go about that may indeed be to move the information to a separate, specific article and leave brief summaries of it in this one. ROG5728 (talk) 07:17, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, did you take a look at my draft that I linked above? Because shortening the sections on this article that are included in that draft would shorten the article a fair amount.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 05:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The L1A1 draft looks good, have you made a draft for a new FAL article?-- MFIreland  • Talk  11:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That I have not done. All I had in mind for that was just to trim the Australia, Canada, Malaysia, and UK sections to barebones, and cut the Rhodesia section roughly in half. But I think I'll play around with a draft for that actually--L1A1 FAL (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's a rough draft I put together quick of a re-done FAL main article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:L1A1_FAL/FN_FAL_%28article_version_2.0%29 ) Basically, just shifted all C1/L1A1 users down to a lower section (with a 'See Main Article' note at t the top, and cut much of the nonessential info. I decided to leave the Rhodesia section alone, but added an additional small entry in the new section ('Southern Rhodesia/Rhodesia').--L1A1 FAL (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The list of users flags in your FN FAL draft will need to be relocated, preferably to be directly above the Australia section and directly below the Production and use introductory paragraph that mentions the FAL's use in 90 countries, etc. The way it is currently set up (in the FN FAL draft), the users list is a subsection of Commonwealth pattern FALs, giving the impression that it is a list of users of Commonwealth pattern FALs, when in reality it is actually a list of all FN FAL users. ROG5728 (talk) 21:59, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for catching that. I fixed that bit, and moved the non-state entities part as well.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 05:53, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Haven't seen much activity here lately, so I just wanted to check if anyone was still on board for my spinoff article and re-doing this article.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 02:41, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There has been no objections to an article split so I think you have a good to go with that.-- MFIreland  • Talk  17:52, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, unless there is further discussion here, I will put the L1A1/C1 article live tonight, and change this article accordingly (already have a draft for redoing this article, just need to get proper layout for pics, and cut a few images out).


 * I have putL1A1 live. I have also been redirecting some links, and will get to revising this article shortly. Also, Sorry about forgetting to sign my previous post - no point in signing it now.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 03:42, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Libya Conflict?
Would anyone oppose adding the current Libya rebellion/unrest/civil war to the conflicts list? Don't really have a source for it per se, but have seen many images of combatants (mostly rebels, it appears) using old FAL's in the conflict. --L1A1 FAL (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is an article from Die Welt confirming the FAL's use in the 2011 Libyan uprising. The wars list is already crowding the infobox so a specific Wars subsection in the article may be necessary (inside of production and use). The list could then be moved there and summarized (or simply linked) in the infobox. ROG5728 (talk) 01:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Good idea, it is pretty overcrowded as is. I think I'll do that. Thanks for that source, by the way.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 03:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Qatar as "users"
Do we have any other sources besides that Al-jazeera article that Qatar has used/is using FN Fals?

The problem here is that Libya, during 1963-1969 adopted the FN Fals as their primary weapon (Ghaddafi changed that to the AK-47 after he came to power) and the FN Fals were put in storage, now this is of course original research, but i find it hard for the libyan regime to intercept two boats going from qatar loaded with weapons seeing as there is a NATO ship blockade and that his navy has been hit hard in missile attacks. (not to mention they could transport them by land.)

Chances are that it is old libyan FN Fals that they have put on display and claim to have captured going from Qatar.

So do we have any other sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.91.109.191 (talk) 10:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

re: Qatari FALs
Yes, there is a page describing, with photos, the Qatari FN FAL, adopted officially by Qatar in 1956, on page 257 of R. Blake Stevens "The Metric FAL" from Collector Grade Publications. The 3 Collector Grade volumes (now offered in one massive volume entitled the "FAL Rifle") are the most comprehensive books ever produced on these weapons. There were photos from the Gulf War of 1991 of Qatari troops using FALs as well.SASH155 (talk) 19:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)SASH155/W. Thomas, Alex. VA

re: Adoption dates, exports and distribution of FN FAL rifles, including their derivatives and licensed manufacture.
Exports and distribution of FN FAL rifles, including derivatives and licensed manufacture.

FALs are known to or reported to have been exported to, or used in or by the following countries: (the origin and official date of adoption will be included, as well as the variant or variants if relevant, and local designation if applicable)

1.	Angola: ex-Portuguese Mo.961s, some ex-West German G-1s seen in news photos.

2.	Argentina: FN and local production at FMAP in Rosario; adopted 1955; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

3.	Australia: the L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel; manufacture began at Lithgow in 1958, service entry in 1959.

4.	Austria: Stg. 58; FN and local manufacture at Steyr, adoption in 1958.

5.	Bahrain: FN, 1968.

6.	Bangladesh: some L1A1s and L2A1s reported (Australian Lithgow origin?); 1A SLRs from India.

7.	Barbados: L1A1s and L2A1s from Lithgow, Australia.

8.	Belgium: M-1 FAL in 1954 and modified M-2 FAL in 1960, also M-3 Para. and FALO heavy barrel; all FN production.

9.	Belize: L1A1; UK origin.

10.	Bolivia: Argentine FMAP Rosario manufacture from 1971; FN made FALs acquired from 1978.

11.	Botswana: L1A1; UK origin; FN made FALs from 1978.

12.	Brazil: M964; FN and local IMBEL manufacture, 1964. FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

13.	Brunei: L1A1 and L2A2, Australian Lithgow origin; acquisition ca. 1962.

14.	Burkina Faso (formerly Upper Volta): FN, 1975.

15.	Burma: surplus 'Bundeswehr G-1s; FN manufacture.

16.	Burundi: FN, 1963; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

17.	Cambodia: FN, 1960: There is extremely sketchy photographic and film evidence from the early to mid-1960s of FN FALs in use by FARK (Force Armée Royale Khmère; from 1970 renamed FANK (Force Armée Nationale Khmère) troops. Most reports I have seen seem to indicate that the FAL was only used by elite troops of the FARK either in the Garde Royale of Prince Norodom Sihanouk or by troops in the 1er Demi-Brigade de Parachutistes. The weapon is notable by its absence in both still photography and film footage of either FANK troops or Khmer Rouge during the war from 1970 to 1975. SKS's (mostly PRC Type-56's), AKs (also mostly PRC Type 56's), U.S. M-1 Carbines, M-1 Garands and M-16A1s are ubiquitous during this period. The literature (see sources below) indicates that Cambodian FALs were identical in configuration to those sold by FN to Libya and to Portugal (the Mo.961), ie. they were at least initially provided without flash hiders, but had smooth muzzles instead, and came with plastic handguards and pistol grips, two piece extractors, and had the socket/ferrule type attachment for the wood buttstock (ie. the "Type C" buttstock). A source on the FAL Files (see falfiles.com) indicates that some of the stocks may also have been of the "B" type (where the stock was attached directly to the receiver). He further indicates that an unnamed source at FN in Herstal reported to him that Cambodia had held trials of the FAL in 1959 and 1960, then purchased them indirectly through Thailand, rather than directly from FN. It must be noted that Thai FALs do not match Cambodian FALs, as they had the 22mm flashhider/grenade launcher on the muzzle, an item missing from Cambodian examples- however, it is possible that some later Cambodian examples had this.

18.	Cameroon: FN, 1968.

19.	Canada: C1, C1A1 and C2A1 heavy barrel; adopted in 1953, production of C1s began at Canadian Arsenals Ltd. in 1955; C1A1 production began in 1957.

20.	Chad: FN, date of adoption/acquisition unclear; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

21.	Chile: FN, 1960; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

22.	Colombia: FMAP Rosario, Argentina; date of acquisition unclear; some FALs have been used by narco-traffickers; some used by groups like the FARC were of Cuban origin.

23.	Comoros: FN, date of acquisition unclear.

24.	Congo-Brazzaville (Republic of the Congo): FN, date of acquisition unclear.

25.	Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaïre): FN; the Belgian Congo adopted the FAL in 1956; Zaïrois troops have been seen with the FALO heavy barrel version as well.

26.	Costa Rica: from Venezuela; FN and Venezuelan CAVIM (C.A. Venezolana de Industrias Militares) manufacture; acquired during the late 1970s.

27.	Croatia: FMAP Rosario, Argentina origin; acquired during Yugoslav wars of the 1990s.

28.	Cuba: FN, 1959; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. “Sanitized” Cuban FALs were passed on to rebels in Chile, Colombia, and El Salvador during the 1980s. Also see Venezuela.

29.	Cyprus: type and origin unclear; possibly UK L1A1s, Greek FALs; some surplus ex-Bundeswehr G-1s acquired from Turkey have been confirmed in use by Northern Cyprus security forces.

30.	Djibouti: FN origin? Date of acquisition unclear.

31.	Dominica: L1A1; UK origin.

32.	Dominican Republic: FN, 1959.

33.	Ecuador: FN, 1960.

34.	El Salvador: mostly "sanitized" ex-Cuban FN FALs provided to the FMLN by Cuba via Nicaragua during early 1980s. Quantities of Argentine FMAP manufactured FALs provided to Contra rebels operating out of El Salvador during the 1980s.

35.	Ethiopia: FN origin? Some were marked "EdC"; date of acquisition is unclear.

36.	Fiji: L1A1, Australian Lithgow origin, date of adoption unclear, likely early to mid-1960s.

37.	The Gambia: L1A1 and FN FAL; UK and FN origin; date of acquisition unclear; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

38.	Federal Republic of Germany: FN FAL “Canada” and G-1; FN manufacture; West Germany adopted the FAL in 1956.

39.	Ghana: L1A1 and FN FAL; UK, Australian Lithgow, and FN origin; Ghana took delivery of its first UK pattern L1A1s ca. 1960.

40.	Greece: FN, 1965.

41.	Guatemala: reported; quantity, date of acquisition and origin are unknown.

42.	Guyana: L1A1; UK origin.

43.	Haiti: FN, 1980; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

44.	Honduras: FN and Argentine FMAP origin, 1969.

45.	India: locally made 1A SLR and some FN made FALs; made at the Government Rifle Factory at Ishapore; adopted in 1962, with production starting in 1963. The Indian 1A SLR is in many respects a UK pattern L1A1, but its dimensions and measurements match neither the FN FAL, nor the UK inch pattern L1A1. India was never an official licensee, and FN never received royalties for the rifles made at Ishapore. Somewhat later, due allegedly to continuing tensions with China over Tibet (ca. 1964-1965?), India reportedly purchased an undisclosed quantity of FN made FALs to supplement its own 1A SLR production.

46.	Indonesia: FN, 1958.

47.	Iran: reported in some sources, but not confirmed. The FAL was never a standard rifle in Iranian service as the locally Mosalsasi Arsenal made version of the H&K G-3A3 and G-3A4 (Iranian G-3s were designated as the G-3A6 by H&K) was the standard rifle alongside AK series weapons. It is possible that during the Iran-Iraq War of 1980 to 1988, that Iran acquired quantities of surplus FALs from Libya, Syria, or from Iranian supported Islamist groups like Hisb’Allah in Lebanon from stocks of pilfered Lebanese government FALs.

48.	Iraq: as in Iran above, the FAL was never an official Iraqi service rifle, however, FALs have been seen in the hands of insurgents in Iraq in TV footage taken after the U.S. invasion in 2003. Possible insurgent use of stocks of captured Kuwaiti Army FALs left over from the Iraqi invasion of that country in 1990; possible insurgent use of Lebanese, Libyan, Syrian, or even Jordanian FALs smuggled into the country.

49.	Ireland: FN, 1961.

50.	Israel: FN and local IMI manufacture; adopted in 1955; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

51.	Jamaica: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel; Australian Lithgow origin, from independence in 1962.

52.	Jordan: FN origin? Reported but unconfirmed; date of acquisition unclear. The FAL was certainly not in service in time for use by the Jordanian army during the 1967 Six Day War, in which the M-1 Garand was the primary Jordanian long arm.

53.	Kenya: L1A1 and FN FAL; UK and FN origin; Kenya likely took delivery of its first UK pattern L1A1s before independence in 1963; in 1966 it adopted the FN made FAL.

54.	Kuwait: FN FAL and L1A1; FN and UK origin. Kuwait adopted the FN FAL in 1957, but also acquired some L1A1s, probably during the early to mid-1960s.

55.	Lebanon: FN, 1956; along with pilfered Lebanese army weapons, some FALs of Libyan origin were used by factions during the Lebanese Civil War of 1975-1990. Syria may have provided some of her own FALs to various pro-Syrian groups in Lebanon, and Israel supplied some of her own FALs to groups like the Lebanese Forces (Phallanges, Gardiens des Cèdres etc...).

56.	Lesotho: FN origin? Some were likely to have been South African LEW (Lyttelton Engineering Works) produced R-1s and R-2s; date of acquisition unclear.

57.	Liberia: FN, 1962; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

58.	Libya: FN, 1955; FALO heavy barrel version used as well; Libyan FALs have been used in the Lebanese Civil War and by the PLO; some may also have been passed on to Iran during the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War, and some have allegedly appeared in the hands of rebels in the Philippines. More recently they figured prominently in the successful Libyan uprising against the late dictator Muammar Qaddafi, and second only to the ubiquitous AK series assault rifles, were the most common rifle seen in use during the Libyan revolt. A recent news photo shows stacks of hundreds of AKs, FALs and other small arms awaiting their imminent destruction in large bonfires set by the new Libyan government. Also see Cambodia above.

59.	Luxembourg: FN, 1956.

60.	Madagascar: FN, 1966.

61.	Malawi: FN, 1974; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. It is likely that Malawi has some UK L1A1s as well.

62.	Malaysia: L1A1 and L2A1, Australian Lithgow origin, adoption ca. 1960.

63.	Malta: FN, date of acquisition unclear.

64.	Mauritania: FN, 1980.

65.	Mauritius: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel, Australian Lithgow origin and possibly some L1A1s of UK origin.

66.	Mexico: FN and local Fabrica de Armas manufacture; Mexico adopted the FAL in 1963.

67.	Morocco: FN, 1963; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

68.	Mozambique: FN, 1959; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. Mozambique’s colonial administration adopted the FAL before Portugal did, the colonial overlord; some Portuguese Mo. 961s were probably also used.

69.	Namibia (formerly South West Africa): FN, date of acquisition unclear; a substantial number of Namibian FALs are South African LEW manufactured R-1s and R-2s.

70.	Nepal: 1A SLR, Indian Ishapore manufacture.

71.	The Netherlands: FN, 1961; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. Designated Het licht automatisch geweer Model 2.

72.	New Zealand: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel; Australian Lithgow manufacture. New Zealand adopted the L1A1 in 1958.

73.	Nicaragua: FN, former Cuban FALs provided to the Sandinista Government, and Argentine FMAP made FALs provided to the Contra rebels during the 1980s.

74.	Niger: FN, 1964.

75.	Nigeria: FN FAL and L1A1; FN, Argentine FMAP (reported), and UK origin. Nigeria was likely supplied with L1A1s by the UK from, or slightly before, independence in 1960. Later in 1967, with the advent of the Nigerian Civil War, Nigeria adopted the FN FAL, and it played a prominent role as one of the most common rifles in service with the Federal Nigerian Army during the war. Photos taken during the war show Federal Nigerian troops armed with a mix of 1962 pattern (wood butt stock, plastic handguard, 22mm grenade launcer/flash hider) and 1964 pattern FALs (same as 1962 pattern but for the plastic butt stock), with the latter variant the more common one. From 1977, Nigeria had a license from FN to make the FAL locally at the Kaduna Ordnance Factory, but it does not seem to have done so until at least 1983 at the DICON facility in Kaduna, and then only with great difficulty. Reportedly, the Nigerians designate their FALs as the NR-1.

76.	Oman: FN, 1960; FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

77.	Pakistan: FN; it has been reported that Pakistan may have acquired some FALs in 1977. However, it must be pointed out that the G-3A2 and G-3A3 have been Pakistan’s standard service rifle since 1967 and 1986 respectively, and have been producing the weapon locally at the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah.

78.	Panama: FN, 1969.

79.	Papua New Guinea: L1A1 and L1A1F-1 (a special shortened L1A1 for soldiers of short stature); Australian Lithgow origin. Papua New Guinea acquired the L1A1 about 1960-1961.

80.	Paraguay: FN, Brazilian INDEP, and Argentine FMAP manufacture; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. Paraguay adopted the FAL in 1956.

81.	Peru: FN and Argentine FMAP manufacture; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. Peru adopted the FAL in 1958.

82. Phillipines: Some reports have stated that rebels on Mindanao acquired an undisclosed quantity of ex-Libyan FALs during the 1980s.

83.	Portugal: Mo. 961; FN manufacture; adopted in 1961. In the 2002 film “The Dancer Upstairs”, starring Javier Bardem, largely filmed in Lisbon, Portugal, there is a scene involving Portuguese security forces in which some of the soldiers are equipped with UK pattern L1A1s; it is possible that Britain supplied Portugal with some surplus L1A1s, either after Britain’s adoption of the L85A1 assault rifle, or after the end of the Cold War, when many of the larger and wealthier NATO countries provided surplus equipment to poorer allies such as Greece, Portugal and Turkey. Also see Cambodia above.

84.	Qatar: FN, 1956.

85.	Rwanda: FN, 1963.

86.	St. Kitts and Nevis: FN, 1969. St. Kitts likely used UK pattern L1A1s as well.

87.	St. Lucia: FN, 1963. St. Lucia also very likely used UK pattern L1A1s.

88.	St. Vincent and the Grenadines: FN FAL and L1A1; the L1A1s are presumably of UK origin. The FN FAL was adopted in 1968.

89.	Saudi Arabia: FN, 1960.

90.	Sierra Leone: L1A1 and FN FAL; UK and FN origin. Sierra Leone acquired L1A1s at or around independence in 1961, and then in 1968 adopted the FN FAL.

91.	Singapore: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel; Australian Lithgow manufacture. Singapore acquired the first L1A1s at roughly the same time as Malaysia, ie. ca. 1960, due to the now independent Singapore being part of the Malay Federation until 1965.

92.	South Africa: FN; South Africa adopted the FAL in 1960; FALO heavy barrel version used as well. The first FN manufactured rifles for South Africa arrived in 1960, and local licensed manufacture started in 1963 at the Lyttelton Engineering Works (LEW) under the aegis of ARMSCOR (now DENEL). The South African made FALs were designated R-1 (a standard 1962 style FAL with a wood butt stock), and the later R-2 model, based on the 1964 pattern FAL with all plastic furniture, but apparently somewhat shortened, was made from 1974.

93.	Sri Lanka: L1A1, Australian Lithgow manufacture; 5000 surplus refurbished L1A1s were acquired in 1984 and 1985 from Singapore, primarily for use by the police.

94.	 Surinam: FN, presumably Dutch-type FALs; Surinam did not become independent until 1975, and it remains tied to the Netherlands for defense equipment.

95.	Swaziland: L1A1 and FN FAL; UK, FN and South African LEW manufacture. Swaziland probably received stocks of L-1A1s from Britain when it became a self-governing territory in 1967 or shortly after becoming fully independent in 1968. The FN and LEW produced weapons were probably acquired during the 1970s.

96.	Syria: FN, 1956.

97.	Tanzania: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel, plus possibly some FN FALs; Australian Lithgow origin, plus possible UK and FN origin; Tanzania likely took delivery of its first UK pattern L1A1s slightly before or at independence in 1961; in 1966 it adopted the FN made FAL.

98.	Thailand: FN, 1961.

99.	Trinidad and Tobago: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel, Australian Lithgow and some L1A1s of possible UK origin as well; these were likely first acquired on or around independence in 1962.

100.	Tunisia: FN, 1967.

101.	Turkey: surplus West German G-1s, the date of their acquisition was likely the mid-1960s.

102.	Uganda: L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel, including possibly some FALs of FN origin; Uganda is known to have acquired L1A1s and L2A1s around the time of independence in 1962 from Lithgow in Australia, as well as possibly some additional L1A1s of UK origin.

103.	United Arab Emirates: FN, various dates due to the different constituent members of the UAE. The UAE was formed from seven constituent sheikdoms, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Ras al-Khaimah, Sharjah, Fujairah, Umm al-Qaiwain, and Ajman, which until 1971 were independent principalities. Several of the individual sheikdoms adopted the FN FAL on their own, usually prior to the union. The militaries of each principality continued to acquire military equipment on a largely independent basis, with Abu Dhabi and Dubai being the primary customers. The emirates which adopted the FAL are in chronological order as follows: Abu Dhabi, 1965; Ras al Khaimah, 1968; Dubai, 1969; Sharjah and Umm al-Qaiwain, 1975. It is also very likely that the emirates had some quantity of L1A1s of UK origin in service due to their long standing defense relationship with Britain.

104.	United Kingdom: L1A1 and FN “X-8” series test rifles; RSAF (Royal Small Arms Factory), BSA (Birmingham Small Arms Company), and FN for the initial 14,530 X8 series rifles. Great Britain officially adopted the FAL in February 1954. Some of the X8 series test rifles ordered in 1954 saw combat use during the Malaya Emergency, and during the Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya. Production of the UK, inch measurement, L1A1 started at RSAF and BSA in 1957.

105.	Uruguay: Argentine FMAP Rosario and reportedly Brazilian INDEP manufacture, date of acquisition unclear. FALO heavy barrel version used as well.

106.	Venezuela: FN and local CAVIM (C.A. Venezolana de Industrias Militares) manufacture. Venezuela adopted the FAL in 1954, with the first 5000 examples chambered for the distinctive 7 x 49.15mm (Optimum 2) cartridge instead of the 7.62 x 51mm NATO, making Venezuela the only country to initially acquire FALs chambered for a different cartridge. FALO heavy barrel version used as well. There is a photo of Fidel Castro taken in January 1959 during the fall of Havana showing him armed with a Venezuelan 7 x 49.15mm FAL, which is identifiable by its distinctive flash suppressor. How he acquired the rifle is open to conjecture.

107.	Zambia (formerly North Rhodesia): L1A1 and L2A1 heavy barrel, plus possibly some FN FALs; Australian Lithgow, plus possible UK and FN origin; the L1A1s and L2A1s were likely supplied at or slightly before independence in 1964; any FN weapons would have been acquired post independence.

108.	Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia): FN, 1961. The former white Rhodesia also used South African LEW produced R-1s. Some reports indicate that Rhodesia may also have had quantities of UK sourced L-1A1s prior to the unilateral declaration of independence from Britain by the country’s white dominated government in 1965.

Sources: For good information on FAL service dates, exports, variants and production see: "The Metric FAL", R. Blake Stevens and Jean E. Van Rutten, Collector Grade Publications, Toronto, 1989; "UK and Commonwealth FALs", R. Blake Stevens, Collector Grade Publications, Toronto, 1987; for more general overviews see: "Small Arms of the World", 7th Edition, W.H.B. Smith, Stackpole, Harrisburg, 1962; "Small Arms of the World", 12th Edition, Edward C. Ezell, Stackpole, Harrisburg, 1983; for fairly detailed country small arms inventories as of the late 1980s/early 1990s see "Small Arms Today", 2cd Edition, Edward C. Ezell, Stackpole, Harrisburg, 1988; also see any of "Jane's Infantry Weapons" yearbooks; I referred to my own copies of the 1975 and 1991-1992 yearbooks, Jane's, London, 1975 and 1991; for some of the Latin American details see "The Armed Forces of Latin America", Adrian J. English, Jane's, London, 1985. Also see www.falfiles.com, particularly entries by some of the contributors, notably "C-2A1". Photos from numerous news bureaux (AP, Bettman Archive, Getty Images, Corbis, Agence France Presse, Reuters) seen in magazines and books are primary sources for weapon's intelligence, including any Time or Newsweek covering the various wars the FAL has been used in (for example, see the May 1978 Newsweek edition covering the French rescue operations in Kolwezi, Zaire, where Zairean soldiers are seen armed with FALs; both Corbis and Getty Images have photos taken during the Lebanese Civil War showing FALs being used by the various militias there). Film footage and still shots of the recent Libyan uprising show the FN FAL in widespread use there.SASH155 (talk) 19:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)SASH155 (talk) 04:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)SASH155/W. Thomas, Alex. VA


 * I think you need to reformat your comment. If you are happy for someone else to do so, please say. It's bad form for others to do so without permissionGraemeLeggett (talk) 09:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello Graeme; just attempted to address this issue, I hope it worked. SASH155 (talk) 04:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)SASH155/W. Thomas, Alex. VA

Variant barrel length inconsistency
The main article infobox states that the 50.63 FAL has a barrel length of 436mm (17.2") and a weight of 3.79kg Aside from this sounding a high weight, considering it's just a 50.61 with 3.8" of barrel removed (losing just 110g of OA/weight), the variants list nearer the bottom of the page states that the 50.62 FAL has a 458mm (18") barrel, and the 50.63 FAL has a 406mm (16") barrel. The '436mm barrel 50.63' FAL is in no way alluded to in the variants list, despite being featured in the info pane.

Due to this discrepancy in barrel length, the weight (which seems high) for the info pane 50.63 is possibly also incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.192.226.233 (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment on the opening line
"The Fusil Automatique Léger ("Light Automatic Rifle") or FAL is a semi-automatic, selective fire battle rifle.. " The statement isn't strictly correct. If a weapon is semi-automatic then it cannot be a selective fire weapon, though a selective fire weapon can generally be used in semi-automatic (Aside: I can't think of any selectives that don't have a semi-auto setting, though I suspect it may be that some had a burst setting instead of the semi). I propose that the "semi-automatic" portion of the line be deleted in the interest of accuracy. 2.101.133.72 (talk) 17:29, 19 April 2015 (UTC)Frank Obolobolopoulos
 * Corrected to "semi-automatic/selective fire" since it was made both as a pure semi-auto and with full auto capabilities (as a squad automatic weapon). Thomas.W talk 17:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Austrian soldiers, NOT German!
The two soldiers in the photo are Austrian, not German. I know the photo was captioned incorrectly in its original location (not by me), but I have only relabeled it correctly here in the article. You can tell that they are Austrian by their uniforms and equipment. Evets70 (talk) 01:20, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Or...maybe just the soldier on the right is Austrian? Evets70 (talk) 01:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

DSA
Since DSA is a US manufacturer, shouldn't the SA-58 be moved to the "Other FN variants" section instead of "FN production variants"?Grimwol (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Major problems with content and structure
The article reads strangely at present, due to three things. Grant &#124;  Talk  02:25, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The lack of any discussion of the background and the rifle's designers in the "History" section – which is mostly about on the to-ing and fro-ing of UK/US politicians.
 * The "Design" sections lacks consideration of the the designers and what inspired/influenced the design.
 * The history of the design should come before the story of its adoption/non-adoption by various militaries around the world.

need to include Canada
Canada used the FN (under the name FN C1). It's not in use anymore but i had my basic training with it back in 1986. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.122.67.149 (talk) 02:29, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on FN FAL. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110927060025/http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=655 to http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=655
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110403053606/http://www.worldcrunch.com:80/close-mustafa-abud-al-jeleil-leader-libyan-rebels to http://www.worldcrunch.com/close-mustafa-abud-al-jeleil-leader-libyan-rebels

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 21:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 6 external links on FN FAL. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.worldcrunch.com/close-mustafa-abud-al-jeleil-leader-libyan-rebels
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://drdo.com/labs/arma/arde/achieve.shtml
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131019061430/http://www.kotzot.com/mauritius-police-force-nomination/ to http://www.kotzot.com/mauritius-police-force-nomination/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100705100331/http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/portal/issueareas/producers/Producers_pdf/2007_Production.pdf to http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/portal/issueareas/producers/Producers_pdf/2007_Production.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130930182159/http://www.mg0815.com/FALinfo.htm to http://www.mg0815.com/FALinfo.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120813062429/http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilliiee/FALRIFLEEJECTOR/ to http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilliiee/FALRIFLEEJECTOR/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:19, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on FN FAL. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151123141639/http://www.saaaca.org.za/?page_id=916 to http://www.saaaca.org.za/?page_id=916
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090318112305/http://www.fides.org/eng/news/2004/0407/24_2910.html to http://www.fides.org/eng/news/2004/0407/24_2910.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Italy as well
I haven't more information on the subject, but the FAL was used in Italy, too; my "Alpini" mountain riflemen unit had them in 1988. 2.39.12.122 (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine use
It's really unexpected that Ukraine are using FALs since 2022. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 21:57, 7 May 2023 (UTC)