Talk:Faggot/Archive 1

Biblical Allusion
I have studied Biblical passages used in the debate on homosexuality extensively. There is no passage about the fires of Hell being stoked by homosexuals. I can only assume that there is a passage that some interpret in this way but without a citation of chapter and verse this is impossible to say. This is an unsupported (and I believe completely unfounded) statement.

To the comment below, the Bible does not use the term 'mortal sin' for any offense. This is a theological term that developed in later Catholic teaching. 24.15.91.98 15:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If I may comment, being a born-again Believer I'd like to add my two cents. According to Romans 1:26-27, homosexuality is indeed a sin because it goes against the natural order God set up for the world. However, it is no worse a sin than any other.


 * In either case, this statement in the article should either be removed or include a citation. As it stands it is incredibly misleading. I also haven't read Romans 1:26-27, but paraphrasing it doesn't really say much. What is the EXACT reference? For example, if it uses the term sodomy, this is not limited to homosexuals or homosexual acts as noted in most dictionaries and, specifically in Wikipedia: "The term is most commonly used to describe the specific act of anal sex between two males or a male and a female. The term "sodomy" also may include non-coital sexual acts ranging from oral sex to paraphilia." —Smack416 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Further to the above paragraph, I believe this is an accurate reference of Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."


 * Unfortunately, this is out of context. "For this cause" is referring to statements previously made in Romans 1:20-25. (Reference here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=9;) Regardless, it is not a statement of fact, nor could it be interpreted that the bible states the "fires of Hell being stoked by homosexuals." based on Romans 1:26-27.


 * As stated in the Wikipedia article: "Alternatively, the Bible is claimed to refer to homosexuals stoking the fires of hell (Sodom and Gomorrah)." Any Tom, Dick, or Priest could back this statement up, sure. It only takes one person to state this claim, technically. But, where is the citation? And is it enough if a single person or small group of people make a statement that has no clear relation to the source material. Really, why is this misleading statement still published in this article? —Smack416 18:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Religious references
For clarity: The Bible and Catholicism do not state that homosexual people are going to hell, but that the act of homosexual intercourse is a mortal sin, falling into the category of lust called "the unnatural vice". Saying that all homosexuals are going to hell would be cruel, since people who are born with the inclination would be condemned from birth, no matter what they did.

EDIT: and this isn't a diatribe on religion, it is an explanation as to why I changed the paragraph under "Biblical Allusion".Don&#39;t give an Ameriflag 21:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Batty boy
Whilst "poof" and "queer" are very common British English terms, I have never heard "batty boy" used outside of rap music. I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's a common British English term&hellip; &mdash; OwenBlacker 22:34, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * It's actually Jamaican, I think. Tuf-Kat 23:51, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, apparently so, according to batty boy. Tuf-Kat 23:51, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject of brit slang, what the hell is up with faggot meaning someone SILLY OR FOOLISH LIKE A BUNCH OF STICKS EH WHAT PIP PIP? Are you people stuck in some kind of 19th century time warp here?

A lot of black british males use batty boy, or "batty boieeee". Take me word for it, I've been called it many a times in Northern England myself (meeep). [date]


 * It's also been popularised somewhat by Ali G, though it's unlikely people who get it from him use it seriously. I have to say, by the way, that I've never heard or used faggot to mean silly or foolish. To me (except in American films) it's always been a kind of pork meatball; and a fag is a cigarette Garik 14:35, 16 May 2006 (BST)

Discussion on merge with Fag (pejorative)

 * Support. Exploding Boy 21:16, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Also Support. --Bcshell 05:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong support - "fag" is the more common usage today, but they are essentially the same word with the same cultural elements that should be documented by WP. -Harmil 12:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Followup: When they are merged, the target should either be Faggot (slang) or Fag (slang), but not Fag (pejorative), since the word is not always used in a pejorative sense. -Harmil 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I was bold, and went ahead and did the merge. I chased down all of the old links and updated as well. Since Fag (pejorative) was so short, there was little to merge. Just the mention of current use in the UK, so I pulled that over and redriected. -Harmil 17:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Slang
Slang is a very biased term that implies judgments about the value of a word based on who uses it and in what context. It carries with it a negative connotation about both the word and its users. I think this page should be moved to Faggot (epithet). Any comments? Dave 05:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that while the new page name doesn't bother me all that much, the above makes no sense at all. Slang is simply common usage, and I have no idea what the "value of a word" is. Value in what units or relative to what? "Yo mamma" is slang. That doesn't make it particularly good or bad, but it probably indicates that your expected not to use it when writing in a formal or educational context. "Fag" is also a slang term and the same applies. -Harmil 02:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Epithet
An epithet is something like a nickname or a title added to a person's name, such as Alexander the Great. "Faggot" would only be an epithet if it was used in a similar way, such as Alexander the Faggot. TharkunColl 23:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An epithet is indeed a nickname or title "imposed" on someone, and thus it can be either complimentary or insulting. You've given examples of both. Which one is which depends on your POV. Either way, young Alex was famous among all his men for having the biggest... sword. >:) Wahkeenah 00:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

British Meaning?
Sorry if this has already been covered here, but it seems to me like the "British meanings" section needs to be removed from the article. It has nothing to do with americanizing wikipedia, or anything like that. It's just that this is specifically an article about using 'faggot' as an insult. And while although 'fag' is an entirely valid word for a cigarette, I can't imagine how it could be used as both a cigarette and an insult in the same sentence. I hope I'm making myself clear here; I might be rambling. The disambiguation page for 'fag' (rightly) includes the link to cigarettes. But the article specifically for the insult really shouldn't. (or, at the very least, shouldn't have an entire section on meat and cigarettes) Bladestorm 18:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

No 1) it's relevant for the origins of the epithet, if only to rule out some popular misconceptions  - there used to a load of fanciful nonsense on this. 2) the article needs to define the limits of the epithet by covering different meanings  Johnbod 18:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) No, the etymology section is relevant for the origins of the epithet. 2) Cigarette is not a meaning of specifically the insult. See the difference? Cigarette is a meaning of 'fag'. Cigarette is not a way of interpreting 'faggot' if you first specifically clarify that you intend it as an insult. Bladestorm 04:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

See section below - this article attracts so much nonsense that it is best to stake out the whole linguistic area in an accurate fashion, otherwise you will have (as we have had in the past) that the Uk cigarette meaning comes from burning gays (although using them to light witches is new). Johnbod 02:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuals doused in fuel and burned?
''homosexuals were supposedly burnt at the stake in medieval England. More accurately, they were doused in fuel and used in place of sticks for the burning of supposed witches.'' Surely that can't be right??? They might indeed have been burnt at the stake as heretics, but used as mere kindling to burn witches?--Ramdrake 15:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I find this very odd as well. Now most sources I've read certainly indicate that burning has never been the normal punishment for homosexuals in Britain.  And burning homosexuals as heretics is not the same as burning them for homosexuality &mdash; particularly as that was made a crime in itself.  Has anyone read this Homophobia book?  How well-researched does this item appear?  Either way, the burning-at-the-stake story is highly unlikely to have much to do with the modern offensive use of the word. garik 15:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

This is absolute nonsense. It's a myth, one, and the word didn't mean "homosexual" when people were burnt at the stake, two. Just because some guy repeated it in a book doesn't mean we have to. Grace Note 06:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Faggot to fag
Although this is "original research", after learning the original meaning of faggot, the first connection I made was that gay men are people who put their "sticks" together. also Is there any chance that this is a source for the word? 68.166.67.241 01:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No. garik 23:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Written uses
On October 3, a vandal blanked several sections. Later, restored much of the vandalized content, but seems to have missed some of it. If you look at the diff from before to after, a section was dropped in Balilas's edit. It's not clear if this was intentional, since no edit summary was left. As this was a helpful, and contextually useful section, I'm going to restore it. If anyone has problems with that, please discuss. Note: this is not new content, it's actually quite old. -Harmil 15:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Uses in popular culture dispute
Hey fellas, I'm not sure if anybody is actively editing this article, but I'm going to contend the statement that "The term is often used by young people as a synonym for words such as jerk (i.e. "What a jerk!" becomes "What a faggot!")". Do be honest, I have never heard anybody use this term as lightly as "jerk". In fact, in Oregon, it's quite possibly the most vulgar word period. It's an unspeakable, like Nigger. In fact, I've heard it less often than that. If this is not the case in other places, then the statement needs a qualifier on it, such as "many young people in Australia...", however if it is the case, then the statement needs to be removed. I'll wait around for a day or two, and if nobody responds, or if responses are in consensus, I'll remove the passage. Xeinart 21:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Since nobody has said anything, I'm going to remove the aforementioned line. It was poorly placed in the article anyway. Xeinart 02:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sad that my edits seem to have been come just before an edit war. That said, to go on a revert to an arbitrary version of the article is not an appropriate way of dealing with edit wars. The general policy is for the article to become protected until the issue has been resolved. Now, I'm going to re-implement my edits, with the knowledge that somebody will construe this as contributing to the edit war. If you have an issue with it, come discuss it on the talk page like a civilized editor. Xeinart 22:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Bible?
Your edits to Faggot (epithet), recently, have both increased internal contradiction (e.g. stating the claim that the term stems from the burning sticks meaning, when later sections bring this into question), and introduced a great deal of original research with respect to the meaning of certain passages in The Bible. If you have a point to make, there are many discussion forums on which you could do so. I invite you to contribute to and improve the article, but bringing your own personal debates to the article isn't the way to accomplish that. Thanks. -Harmil 21:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your frankness, but of course the section like anything else here, is one in a state of development. Not to mischaracterise your criticism, but you arent arguing against using the Bible as a source, are you? If you can, can you please identify which statements you think are claims and interpretations. Thanks. I'll see you at the talk page shortly. -Stevertigo 21:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Specifically, your edits sought to establish a connection (which is unsourced, and appears to be OR) between a particular passage in The Bible and a particular, hypothetical origin of the word "faggot". You then continue on, in an analysis of the biblical take on homosexuality. The former is, as far as I can tell, not a consensus as you indicated by re-writing the intro. The latter is simply not appropriate for the article at all, as it's an analysis of homosexuality (from a religious standpoint), not information about the word "faggot". -Harmil 21:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Instead of making blanket judgments, please take the issue to the talk page. I will see you there. -Stevertigo 22:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Im moving your comments from my talk to that talk page. -Stevertigo 22:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Harmil, a couple questions for you:
 * Do you have a problem with referencing the Bible?
 * Are you asserting that the specific word "faggot" has to be used in the Bible for it to be relevant?
 * Are you arguing that the Bible is not as relevant as other sources in indicating (at least as a possibility) the meaning of a term?
 * Are you claiming that a religious viewpoint is invalid?
 * Are you claiming that there is no connection between the religious concept of "hell" and the religious criticism of homosexuality? -Stevertigo 22:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Stevertigo


 * I would agree with Harmil in that perhaps the entries may be more appropriate for an article on homosexuality under the Christian perspective with citations of point of view. I for one didn't know that the word "faggot" had other meanings beyond an epithet. So, I guess I strongly agree with Harmil. PEACETalkAbout 22:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This seems reasonable, provided of course that some basic footprint is left here, which points to that article. -Stevertigo 22:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Strongly Agree While you have many interesting ideas, Wikipedia is not a place to publish your own research. If you have a verifiable source for your information, that's different, but we cannot have original research on Wikipedia. Also, it's important to realize that Wikipedia does not attempt, nor wish, to deal with every possible aspect of every topic. Whether there is, in some conservative religions, or not a relationship between hell and homosexuality has little to do with this epithet. Finally, I hope that it is fully impressed on you that the possibility of an origin is original research. If a reliable source said, "this is a possible place the word comes from" you could cite that. At present, it's still original research, which is against the rules. Xeinart 22:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to your questions: 1) I have no problem referencing The Bible when talking about things where The Bible has some pertinence, though it constitutes a [primary source and according to Wikipedia's policy on the matter, should be cited "only with care, because it's easy to misuse primary sources." 2) I'm not asserting that the word "faggot" has to be used in The Bible in order for it to be relevant, but there would have to be some direct association between the two that's not simply your theory. 3) Possibility isn't terribly interesting, since we don't have a source that backs up the possibility. We can't just say, in an encyclopedia, "The Bible says X, and so that could mean that Y," because we think it's a cool idea. 4) I'm not claiming that a religious viewpoint is "invalid", I'm claiming that Wikipedia isn't a place for viewpoints, but for neutral cataloging of fact and the consensus established by external sources. 5) I made no statement about hell or criticism of homosexuality, other than the fact that this article is not a place for either concept, other than perhaps to suggest that the word faggot is often deeply tied to criticisms of homosexuality. -Harmil 00:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your responses, and agree that this would belong better somewhere else, provided some basic linkage is established. The notion that no relationship exists between religious condemnation and a pejorative term used in the context of said condemnation appears to be specious. In that context, of course the Bible does have "pertinence." "Wikipedia isn't a place for viewpoints," appears to contradict NPOV policy, which insists that major viewpoints be represented. -Stevertigo 01:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I dislike this characterization of "original research" - itself an easy pejorative that often tries to takes the place of discussion. As for verifiable sources, someone here has to answer my questions: ''Are you arguing that the Bible is not as relevant as other sources in indicating (at least as a possibility) the meaning of a term? Do you have a problem with referencing the Bible? Are you asserting that the specific word "faggot" has to be used in the Bible for it to be relevant?''
 * SV

"Also, it's important to realize that Wikipedia does not attempt, nor wish, to deal with every possible aspect of every topic." This is somewhat in contradiction to our mandate. Certainly there are fringe claims which can be excluded, but here you seem to be asserting that the Bible is equivalent to a fringe claim. Certainly that can't possibly be a valid argument. Likewise, if you look up the meaning of the word encyclopedia, you can sort of understand the inclusionist viewpoint. Where is Harmil by the way? It seems strange that he's chosen to remain uninvolved in this discussion. -Stevertigo 22:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Unless you can provide some published analysis that links the word "faggot" with the biblical passages you include, then it does indeed look like Original Research. "The Bible" as a source isn't the problem; it's the extrapolation you make. CovenantD 23:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How then does the article handle the usage of the word "faggot" by religious extremists? It seems to avoid the subject in an altogether cowardly fashion. Interpretations do vary, but in the religious context, they don't vary so much as to require their exclusion per NOR. Further, NPOV trancends all other policies, and requires the representation of all relevant points of view. The passage "he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" appears to be explanatory enough without relying on commentary.Im not unwilling to compromise on how the section is worded. Lastly, editing is done by cooperative means, not by LGBT people who violate OWN with respect to particular articles. Most responses have been unspecific and general, and contradictory to NPOV. Considering this incivil remove first, discuss later approach, taking this to dispute resolution seems to be the next step. -Stevertigo 23:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't make assumptions about others. For starters, it makes the conversation too personal and besides, you're likely to be wrong. -Harmil 00:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I was referencing OWN as an example of poor behaviour, not asserting that this was in actuality the improper modus operandi of those here opposed. Though you would agree that its a likelihood in the context of this article. The sticker at the top that claims "this article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues" appears to assert a dominion over this topic. Again the remove first, discuss later approach is prejudicial. -Stevertigo 01:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Responses

 * There's nothing in the above that has anything to do with the word "faggot"... and that's the crux of the problem, here. Now, if you wanted to say, "The Bible says ... and Christians [...of some sort...] have used this as justification for the use of the word 'faggot'," then you would just have to find an acceptable, published source that asserted that that was the case... almost all of the rest of the text is simply not appropriate for this article. -Harmil 00:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Harmil, WADR, you contradict yourself in several ways: On the one hand you say that the Bible can be referenced, but you claim it to be only a primary source in this context. You say that the term "faggot" doesnt have to be in the Bible for it to be relevant, but then you claim that the quoted sections don't have "anything to do with the the word."
 * The article talks about an epithet which in its common usage characterizes certain people as being like 'a bundle of sticks,' and yet you claim that a passage from the Bible &mdash;one which states by way of an explicit metaphor that people who "are the branches" who are by some action of their own caused to be "cast forth [ie. pruned] as a branch, [..] withered [ie. dried] [..], and cast [..] into the fire, and they are burned" &mdash;is too far removed to mention? Ridiculous.
 * What I agree is controversial is the modern application of the term to homosexuals exclusively. The Jesus quote does not appear to have this meaning explicitly, instead referring to "those who dont abide in me" which some interpret to mean those who reject Christianity while other interpret this to mean those who don't abide in God, where God is (simply) love. In this regard the characterization is not one which is critical of homosexuality per se, but of the perversion of love though sex devoid of love.
 * The excerpt from the Book of Kings might sort of 'back up' the more discriminatory definition, but that of course is more interpretational and best left for an article specific to religion and homosexuality.

-Stevertigo 01:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Stevertigo, and Harmil, and really everybody else involved, let's try to deal with this like rational people. If you'll cooperate with what I'd like to do, I'm sure that we can reach a solution in which one side backs down, or a compromise in which both sides are satisfied. I'd like to ask a couple of questions, and see where things go from there. If we find that we are unable to reach a solution on our own, then we can involve others. I'll admit going in to this that I do have a bias, which is clearly toward Harmil. That said, I don't want to tell either of you what to do. I simply want to pose some questions and let you two work the issue out on your own. I'd like to remind you both to remain civil. Manners are a part of what separates us from wild animals. The first question I'd like to pose is to Stevertigo. What text would you like to add, where would you like to add it, and how do you think that it improves the article as a whole? Xeinart 02:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What do you propose? -Stevertigo 03:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to start things off by asking you what exact text you would like to add to the article, where, and how it improves the article as a whole. It's possible that once you've explained all that, this entire issue will disappear. If not, we can move on from that point. I'd like to thank you for showing maturity in being willing to work with me on this. Xeinart 06:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Stevertigo has already injected the text in question, and pasted it above. There have been three separate users who have reverted that text (I was only the first). I realize that SV's penchant for re-formatting discussions and sectionalizing has made it difficult to follow, but read the text above. It's not as if the desire hasn't been clearly stated, it's just that there's never been any response to the concerns about relevance. The tenuous connection between the fact that faggot can refer to kindling and the Bible passage in question is not sufficient to support its inclusion. We would have to find some author who published in a venue that's considered an acceptable source, and actually made that connection. THEN, we could cite that source, and say that, "so and so claims that there is a link between the Bible and this usage of the word faggot." Until then, I'm not sure what we could possibly do within the scope of Wikipedia's policies other than not include the suggested text. -Harmil 18:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * OFF TOPIC: "Sectionalizing"[sic] doesn't make discussion more difficult to follow, and Ive not 'reformatted' anything.
 * "There's never been any response to the concerns about relevance." Ive responded in detail, whereas your responses have contradicted themselves, in the ways that I've listed above. The issue of relevance for the Book of John quote is obvious, while the your "NOR" argument appears ridiculously overstated, claiming that someone has to publish what is obvious connection between a metaphor and a pejorative. The topic is a pejorative, not some scientific method or historical event.
 * That said, I agree that any extrapolations beyond the basic similarity is a stretch. As a compromise, I propose that the only the first two paragraphs be included, (the BoJ quote) and some of the rest will belong on a more appropriate article. As someone who understands Wikipedias policies and its history of development, I assure you that establishing connections and relationships between concepts is not OR. "NOR" on the other hand appears to be used here as a means for censorship. -Stevertigo 20:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sectionalizing (definition) certainly does make this harder to read, since it's much harder to follow the flow of the conversation. On the point about re-formatting, if you didn't reformat my comments, then why is my comment at the head of this section, not where I put it (in response to your comment)?


 * You've made vague responses to the concerns about relevance as you do here. You said, "The issue of relevance for the Book of John quote is obvious." Frankly, no it's not. You leap from (my paraphrase) "faggot has an alternate definition which means 'a bundle of sticks'" to (again, my paraphrase) "a quote from the Bible which happens to involve both a bundle of sticks and (arguably) homosexuality should be included here." I'm not following that leap of logic, and apparently nor are at least two other editors. It is that leap of logic which must either be patently obvious to all concerned (e.g. "faggot is a word") or cited from a reliable source. You don't just add to George Washington, "and another man from American history, who was famous for being on a river at once point, is Mark Twain."


 * You can't overstate the problems related to original research. Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Period. There's no debate there, and it simply cannot be overstated. It's not a rule that you can ignore once in a while as long as you're good. Frustrating though we all may find that sometimes, that's the deal we edit Wikipedia under. Again, you rely on the word "obvious." If it were obvious, we would not be having this discussion. I don't find anything obvious about the need to include a quote from The Bible that just so happens to involve burning sticks and homosexuality. You mean "obvious to me." That's not the same thing.


 * Please don't complain about censorship. No one is censoring your ideas. You can paste them all over the Web, but in order to include them here, there is a very simple test: did you include a reliable source? You cited The Bible for a quote. That's good. Now, just cite the idea that that quote relates in any way to the modern or historical use of this word other than by pure coincidence, and there will be no one stopping the inclusion of the quote.


 * Finally, please don't take this personally. I'm sure that you're a fine person, and I'm not questioning your integrity. I just patrol this and many other high-traffic articles, and your edit was one which simply didn't meet any criteria for inclusion that I could find. -Harmil 23:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We need not only the Bible quote but a source that actually relates this to the modern use of "faggot". Otherwise it's very clearly original research. garik 01:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont respond well to deletionists, and for that I apologise. I happen to be someone who was around at a time when there were only a relative handful of dedicated editors, and view Wikipedia according to an inclusionist framework - one that assumes good faith, allows time for material to be sourced after the fact, and frowns upon the deletionist - the one who thinks pruning is more vital than planting. There is a difference between knowing what it takes to build something from nothing, and claiming to know what is fit for inclusion.

But given the success of this site it is of course a natural consequence that newer waves of contributors view their self-appointed tasks in a different light. In that context the subjective venemosity of what sources are "reliable" or not has brought us to certain paradoxes. One example of which is a culture that is free to wax poetic about a term's "Usage in popular culture" for example (all of it unsourced and and certainly unreliable, or at least unimportant), but is unable to allow for the Bible itself to be referenced in a direct way which leaves the interpretation up to the reader.

You say that you don't see how the relation between the "I am the true vine" passage can be called "obvious," but I find this answer to be specious at best. There is no matter of interpretation or extrapolation. There is only the matter of including a Biblical reference in relation to a term, which itself has no real scholarly meaning. Garik unwittingly sums up the gaping hole in your exclusionist argument by bad example: "we need not only the Bible quote but a source that actually relates this to the modern use of [the term]." "Modern use" is of course a ridiculous limitation to assert for any word, let alone a Biblical passage, and contradicts what you (Harmil) and I agreed above to in that the term "faggot" need not be used in the Bible itself for there to be relevance. Naturally the article is not just about a word (epithet in this case) but a concept in which people are deemed destined to be discarded inflammatorily. -Stevertigo 04:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Administrative Involvement
Since you guys have established that you have no desire to actually work through this issue in any kind of constructive manner, leastwise not to make use of my services as a moderator, I see no option outside of administrative involvement. Unless one of you objects, rather strenuously and eloquently, I'll be putting in a request. I tried to get you guys through this. You didn't take it. Xeinart 03:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * First off, I take objection to being characterized as someone who has "no desire to actually work through this issue." Were that the case, I would not have been here, practically begging for an answer to the central question of relevance (to which no answer has yet been provided, other than the establishment of coincidence and, "it's obvious.") Since others have reverted since I did, I could have simply shut up and reverted him two more times if he tries to put it back, without violating the 3RR rule. But, I'm not that kind of guy, and I wanted to find out what the source of relevance was to see if there was a kernel of a good edit here.


 * I'd also be somewhat concerned about expanding the scope of involvement (and thus consuming valuable community resources) when this user has, thus far, been unable to state his case in a way that has resulted in any other user issuing support for the edit in question. In fact, the number of users expressing opposition has simply grown. It just seems a waste of everyone's time to say that every time someone really wants to put something on a page that no one else agrees is relevant, we need to involve the larger community to "work through the issue." Rather, I'd say that even grudging support from someone, or some outright abusive treatment would have to occur before we consider it an issue at all.


 * All that said, I won't try to stop you from doing what you think is right. If you feel involving yet more people is the way to go, then have at. -Harmil 14:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Broadening of Meaning
Lately the younger generation seems to use fag/faggot as a general purpose insult with no set meaning and no care towards sexual orientation at all. How much of such a trend has to go on before it warrants a mention here? Howdoesthiswo 15:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. While straight people who use that word may feel like it is not offending anybody or targeting anybody in particular, that word plays a vital role in the enforcement of heteronormative gender roles in American public schools. In my opinion, while it is easy for straight people to believe that they are not hurting anybody in uttering things like "fag", it is the people to whom this word applies that offense in that word is obvious. Fokion 04:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether it hurts or not isn't the point. The point is that it is used that way, undeniably. A huge number of people, especially younger people, use "faggot" in the same way they use "loser." Many people who use that word, especially people without much experience with gay culture, think nothing of gays when they use it. While it shouldn't be a huge factor in the article, it should most definitely be discussed.--Josh 06:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply stating such would be original research, however, if you can find an authoritative source that confirms your understanding, you should cite it in the article. -Harmil 02:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's just tangential though, because there are so many things throughout wikipedia and even in this article that do not have citations. Take the sentence "'Fag' and 'Faggot' have historically been two of the most offensive terms that could be addressed to an American man or adolescent boy.", for instance. It seems as though this statement is "pending citation", but has been allowed in without it because no one has come forward who disagrees with it and challenges it.  It is quite false to say that one must cite sources on wikipedia.  If this were true, the encyclopedia would be much smaller from all the deletions.  It is good that we do not delete material without citations that seems credible or widely held to be true, because if no one challenges it, it is like a work in progress, pending citation.  And as this usage of fag is very widespread, I think all contributors will fall into two categories: those who are familiar with this usage and will allow a discussion of it pending citation, and those who are unfamiliar with it but do not necessarily believe it not to exist.  Thus no one will come forward to challenge its accuracy until someone finds appropriate examples in mainstream communication, which, in any event, should not be hard to find.  Of course, you may just reiterate the "policy", but it still seems that wikipedia's articles widely lack appropriately extensive support while nonetheless being pretty accurate, because people will cut out false stuff they "know" to be false and leave in stuff they have no first-hand knowledge of or know to be true.  In fact, Wikipedia IS original research, or, rather, we cite our intellects when editing articles.  Only obscure or controversial topics have a more urgent need for citation, because in the first case, few people will know anything about the topic, and in the second, different people will have different viewpoints.  This usage of faggot is neither obscure nor controversial, and precedent suggests it be allowed in, unless someone believes it to be false152.163.100.8 00:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

faggots come from the english west midlands, a Black_Country(the part of the country where all the black smoke used to be) dish called "faggots and peas", pronounced faggytsunpays its like bits a meat n onions with like a skin, in a brown ball, served with gravy, I dunno how you make em you have to ask the people at the "black country living museum" to get the most authentic recipy. its usually served with gravy, the peas can be mushy. where I live on the south staffordshire black country border we tend to use other worlds like sheartlifta qaya, qayabugga, puffta,, wolly wufta, arse bandit, qayer ba*****, the other words are starting to apppear such as faggot buts thats only because of the jamaican immigrants and on the television, it may of been an old word preserved in american english that wants to reapear in the mother country, maybe americans have forgotten what faggots really are and what they tasted like after they lived in the new country for too long. I've seen faggot in hhhhholliwood movies most the time the people who say it have southern accents, I dont think it origonated from the northen states, or maybe its both, in some small area of ingland the word never completly died out, because where i live faggot for a gay person is quite common, i also happen to live in the place where faggots were first eaten.-paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.10 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 9 March 2006

Just a note to the guys above; "Bastard" is a perfect example of an insult degenerating into general purpose use. Do you think illegitimate people are going to contest this fact? How many times have you used the word bastard without thinking.

According to Andrew Sullivan, a published author and renown political commentator, in one of his "The Daily Dish" articles, titled "Faggot." "The word "faggot" is used for two reasons: to identify and demonize a gay man; and to threaten a straight man with being reduced to the social pariah status of a gay man." Therefore, the meaning of faggot has been broadened to define and insult any men who the name-caller deems as a "faggot."

Uses in Popular Culture
Please add the following: Daily Kos. "Democrats and the faggot problem.", "Who invited the little faggot?", and "When is a faggot just a bundle of sticks?" [] []-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.222.5 (talk • contribs).


 * Why don't you add it? garik 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

In the movie Repo Man the character of Miller states that John Wayne was a fag, and when he went to his house to install a two way mirror Wayne came to the door in a dress.

In addition to the many inappropriate comments by Ann Coulter that are already included on the page, I think this page should address the abundance of "faggot" in music. Music, especially rap music, has had one of the largest effects on the usage of "faggot" in today's society. This type of music is very popular with teenagers, and a prime example of homophobia in rap are the lyrics of Eminem. Eminem has been "assailed for his repeated use of the term faggot" (Ramlow). He claims that to him, "fag or faggot does not necessarily mean 'gay' or even 'homosexual' but is a term of disempowerment, used to refute the masculinity of an adversary" (Ramlow). This is the definition that teenagers have recently adopted and use the most often. I think that it is important that people understand what influenced these young adults to use the word to describe people they consider annoying or not part of their social group. Apocinki 01:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In the 2007 movie Superbad, the word “faggot” is used often. For example,

Jesse: You're not invited. Tell your fucking faggot friend he can't come either. [motions towards Evan] Seth: [Seth and Evan walk away together] So Jesse wanted me to tell you you're a fucking faggot and you're not invited to his grad party.

The use of the word in this context represents the extreme negative feelings associated with “faggot.” The fact that a character in the movie would not invite the boys to his party because they are, in his mind, “faggots,” shows the association the word has now with being un-cool. Jonesbabwe (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above two posters in that the "Uses In Popular Culture" section should not only discuss uses of the word by media figures, but also uses in popular music, movies and television shows. The excessive use of “faggot” in these areas reflects the views of many of their viewers/listeners. An example of a television show in which “fag” is frequently used is South Park, in which its main characters, elementary school boys, regularly use the word uncensored. The word has been used four times in the show’s current season alone (including in the name of the fictional restaurant “Buca de Faggoncini Italian Restaurant”, an obvious reference to the word). In an interview with GQ.com, South Park co-creator Trey Parker said, “In the first year, they’re like, “You can’t say ‘fag.’ There’s no way. And you can’t say, ‘That’s gay,’ because it’s offensive to homosexuals.” It’s like, Yeah, but that’s how kids talk.” The idea that elementary age children conversationally use the word “fag” suggests that, in America, the use of “faggot” as a derogatory term is extremely widespread. --Kate220 (talk) 04:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Fagging
I have also heard "fag" use as a transitive verb in England. It means to wear out or tire. I think this is why public school boys were said to "fag" for the older boys when they ran errands. They would often serve them sexually. It was also used as a noun for such boys. I think it is commonly thought that a cigarette is a fag because it makes you short of breath to smoke them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.55.201 (talk • contribs) 10:02 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes but its likely the uses of 'faggot' and 'fag' are connected (it also makes sense that cigarettes are called fags on that ground) Like the article points out the words have a number of uses and have a number of ways they are also used to be derogatory. But something I think people might be missing is its likely that there is no completely direct connection to homosexuality; that it was sort of used at different times as more general term and form of derision, and only became narrowed down to homosexuality later when the more general language went out of fashion. Or in a alternatively but in a similar sense there were just a collection of uses that owed to many different derivations into derogatory uses because of the similarity. (words like 'dog' are used in different types of ways for derision) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianshapiro (talk • contribs)

Brian - no; OED sees no connection between faggot (from French) & fag (origin unclear, perhaps from flag in the sense of getting tired, around which most of its many meanings cluster. The cigarette meaning comes from fag-end (see below), coming to mean the whole cigarette. first citation 1888, when they were still supposed to improve breathing etc. Johnbod 02:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Please note the lack of reference to the English term 'fagged out' - to mean spent, tired, weary, burnt out: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fagged - this is still in common usage. it's likely derivation is that of a 'burnt out' cigarette - a fag end.

Also, a possible that has not been mentioned here. The teutonic word 'Fey' is used in the UK to describe camp or effeminate behavior. It suggests being a fairy or fairy-like - another word used here to describe gay men.

The word fey has also been suggested as the possible root of the yiddish term for effeminacy Fegala: http://www.fegmania.org/archives/fegmaniax/1997-1/v05.n037 - Could this itself lead towards feg... 'fag'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nijrose (talk • contribs) 12:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

fag-end, faggot-end, faggot-girl, & mutton
I have deleted the following: (and the ref, which I'll add below)
 * It is also possible that the meaning derives from the use of the word as a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because of their association with the gutter, where "faggot-ends" (or fag-ends) of meat were thrown by butchers.[3]

- because it is not supported by the OED reference given, and the OED has no mention of "faggot-end" at all; it is "fag-end", still in common use in the UK,OED 2: "the last part or portion of anything", deriving from OED 1:"the last part of a piece of cloth". Nor is "faggot-girl", supposed C19 British, in the OED. Reference? Where the butchers throwing meat into the street come from who knows. The mutton quote comes from 1613; the prostitutes supposedly from the late C19 (see below). This non-association seems to have survived any number of edits on this article, but its time has come.

This is a fairly ancient version of the section (lost date,sorry): " Prostitution + "Faggot"  - It is more likely this use of faggot was originally a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because they were associated with "the gutter", where "faggot-ends" of meat were thrown by butchers. The term "faggot girls" for prostitutes is attested from the late 19th century. Often perceived still as gender traitors, homosexual men are still often spoken of as "girls," and there were probably a number of male prostitutes at the same time referred to as "faggot boys". In either case, it would be a short leap from "faggot girl" meaning "prostitute" to "faggot" meaning "homosexual male"&mdash;probably starting with male prostitutes who tend to serve primarily or exclusively male customers." Johnbod 01:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

lost the reference of course - but it will be in the history Johnbod 01:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

all this was in the "etymology" section of course Johnbod 01:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I remember my mother (born 1923, Northern English, a resident of Manchester and West Yorkshire Town Todmorden) using the term'faggot' to describe defiant or willful behaviour by girls: "Come here, you little faggot". This would uphold the 'faggot girl' theory previously stated.

Recent origins edit
Recent edits to the origins of the term have attempted to simply remove the phrase:


 * "It is often claimed that the derivation is associated directly with faggot meaning "bundle of sticks for burning", since homosexuals were supposedly burnt at the stake in medieval England."

While I agree that the statement needs to be sourced or otherwise dealt with, simply removing it in the way that it was, leaves the next section without context. I've tried to edit it so that this is not as much of a problem, but the correct solution really is to get more, and more authoritative sources, not to chop up the article when the sources that we do have weakly support the initial premise (that this origin is often cited) and strongly support the subsequent premise (that this origin is incorrect). -Harmil 19:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is utter bollocks though. Encyclopaedias do not necessarily need to traffic in tittletattle. Grace Note 06:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I know that this is not very well substantiated in Federici's book. However, the burning of Heretics and those called "Witches" in England certainly occurred, as well as in the colonies (and is extremely well documented). Witches and Heretics were both groups accused of (and in the case of Heretics definitely practicing) homosexuality. Now, Federici does mention this and backs it up with considerable sources. Therefore we can somewhat surmise that faggot is indeed a slang term used to describe, in the least, those who deviated from the sexual norms established by the dominate group in England during the 15th-18th centuries.

Additionally, the current statement,


 * "One historical meaning of the word faggot, "a bundle of sticks for burning", is not likely to have been a reference to homosexuals, since burning at the stake was never a punishment for homosexuality in England, making the connection of the two an urban legend."

does not consider Wales, Scotland, Ireland, or the English colonies.


 * "'Faggot' sometimes reminds us that homosexuals were at times the kindling for the stakes upon which the witches were burned."

~Federici, Silvia. Caliban and the Witch. Autonomedia: Brooklyn, 2004. Pg 197. —Preceding

Sorry, I posted this with out signing in. This is from burneatgodfeartv. If my post was supposed to be approved before it was posted, sorry, I don't know the etiquette for this article, and this is my first time posting. unsigned comment added by 24.61.64.99 (talk) 05:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The term "Fag" was attached to younger boys acting as unpaid servants to British public school (actually private school) prefects in their live-in single-room accommodation only because their primary task each morning was to carry up the bundles of sticks (faggots) and re-light the open fires in the cold bedrooms. The act of being a fag was thus termed "Fagging". The next morning task would be to toast the breakfast bread over the open fire.


 * The practice of the younger boys becoming "bedwarmers" and sexual partners of their prefect certainly took place, but nowhere near as frequently as depicted in popular fiction and common heresay. It is most likely that this sexual aspect of fagging was simply misinterpreted across the Atlantic and led directly to Americans associating Fags solely with the homosexual activities. Cigarettes became known as fags in Britain simply because their glowing ends resembled the glowing ends of the dying faggots in the fireplace. The whole question is nowhere near as convoluted and drawn out as the article implies. 21st CENTURY  GREENSTUFF 22:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Bassoon in norwegian
Could someone please ad to the article that the norwegian name for Bassoon, the musical instrument, is Fagott, pronounced just like the english insult. This is good to know, english people turn their heads when they hear it in norwegian sentences.
 * Afaik it's pretty similar in German and several other languages. I've played countless pieces of music where my part said Fag. 1/2 on every page except the first. Bassgoonist 02:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So, straight folk are confusing gay folk for woodwind instruments? I mean, of course everyone confuses Truman Capote and TR Knight for bassoons, and we have all heard of the Great Clarinet Orgy of 1932, but is it notable in this article? -  Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What the fuck? Because English speakers before going to Norway always read up on all the instrument names in Norwegian so there can be no confusion. Arcayne, if this were a no-longer-used Norwegian word, I'd agree with you, but this seems important. I know, as a non-Norwegian speaker and European traveler whose first language is American English, that if I had gone to Norway and heard "Fagott" in a Norwegian sentence, I'd be very confused and interested. Furthermore, in the "kike" article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kike) its not only noted that in a foreign language the word means something else, it actually puts it at the top of the article. Why? Because its an offensive word with a non-offensive word spelled the same. This is a word spelled and PRONOUNCED similarly. Worth noting. End of story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.168.12 (talk) 10:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you might want to brush up on the humorous device called wit, my friend. I was making a joke because this is the English-language wiki, not the Norwegian language wiki. There is precisely zero verification that a word that sounds like the word 'faggot' actually occurs in Morwegian. And if it does, so what? Look at the name of the article: it says "Faggot (epithet)". Are you for even a moment suggesting that people in Norway angrily call each other bassoons after auto accidents? "Listen up, you stupid bassoon, we don't cotton to your type around these here parts" is not a likely statement occuring on a sunny Norway evening. Ever.
 * The Norwegian word for bassoon may or may not sound like faggot, but it isn't meant as a curse word/swear word/epithet, so it doesn't belong in this article. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  19:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This would also be good to include in the disambiguous page if there is a reference. Benjiboi 02:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Be Sure to Update!
Be sure to update the information as it relates to Isaiah Washington's Larry King interview were he stated that his reference to T.R. Knight is incorrect, according to Washington his use of the word was directed at another co-star during a verbal argument where he used the word in sexually neutral manner...furthermore he denied that he had directed any slur's at co-stars nor was his behavior unprofessional prior to that. Also make sure to note for contexts sake that Washington was gaged by Disney not to talk publicly about any of the rumors. Also note that Knight's outing himself has nothing to do with Washington, considering his interview with Larry King. Thank you --216.76.232.52 03:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

another use in pop culture
It should also be noted that in the Mel Brooks film "Blazing Saddles" one of the characters uses the term "Kansas City Faggots" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aramaki (talk • contribs) 21:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

finocchio and fennel
The etymology of the English word "faggot" is possibly similar to the etymology of the Italian word "finocchio" which literally translates to "fennel." The word "fnocchio" is common in Italian profanity(slang) and can be used as a blatant slur equivalent to the word "faggot"; that is, if not in jocular context and depending on its tone and sentiment, in which case it is like using the words "gay' or "queer." Italians use other words for similar use and meaning, but it is popularly assumed that "finocchio" finds its etymology in the age of the "Holy Inquisition." In that era, finocchio, or fennel, was apparently thrown on persons burned at the stake. During "Inquisition" individuals were executed for homosexual acts, as well as other "heresy." Fennel was used in order to mitigate the stench of burned flesh, especially since it is a common herb seen throughout Italy. In fact, in English language, "finocchio," the herb, is often referred to as "Florence fennel." The etymology and history of fennel in English, Italian and other languages seems to support this arguement.
 * The above was just added and although I imagine someone will pick it apart or remove it altogether it seems an interesting angle I'd never heard before. It may be worthy of further consideration. Benjiboi 10:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I made the addition to the etymology section because I think it has just as strong of a possibility as other theories and even like etymology of the word "fennel" itself. Please see those wiki topics, as well as the "Inquisition" and "heresy."   Of course, it would also help to understand the influence of Italian history, the Papal States and the Roman Empire on the rest of Europe, including England.  The English language, unlike others, does in fact incorporate the etymology of other languages and cultures, thus making it unique in many ways.

Furthermore, I invite you to look up the topic and etymology of "bugger" in the English language, as it has similar development that is linked to "heresy" under the reign of King Henry VII, who notably created the devide between the Roman Catholic world and the protestant Church of England. Years removed from this era, it is not surprising how the history and meaning can be lost. To understand the history of English, I do think it is important to consider these facts. DjZ (talk) 11:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)DjZ
 * I didn't delete the material simply noted here that i found it compelling. Do you have some reliable sources that others can access that show the parallels? Benjiboi 12:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * First, I think you can see it in the most obvious topics at Wikipedia itself. See the topics for Buggery and then the Buggery Act of 1533.  If those topics need to be clarified or questioned in of themselves, or even for the interest of the etymology of the word "faggot" as a slur word; then, too, notwitstanding the general history of homosexuality, heresy and "deviancy," then let's start that discussion.  Myself, I am somewhat familiar with Henry VII role in the Renaissance age.  The King was certainly a controversial figure, well beyond his country of England. 69.109.208.103 (talk) 21:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)DjZ
 * The word "Bugger" has its etymology from the word for the ancient Bogomil gnostic sect, which spread into the Byzantine Empire, Serbia, Bosnia, Italy and France. To see the evolution of the name "Bogomil," go to the wiki topic and section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomil#Name.  Here is an example of how things can be hidden from history and yet how they have evolved through time.  The word takes on variant meaning as it travels.   As you will see, the word connotes "heretic, traitor" to "peasant, blockhead;" then, as the writer points out, it "entered old Italian as 'buggero' and Spanish as 'bujarrón,' both in the meaning of "sodomite", since it was supposed that heretics would approach sex (just like everything else) in an "inverse" way. 69.109.208.103 (talk) 22:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)DjZ


 * The OED first use of buggery (sexual meaning) is 1330 - 200 years before Henry's break with Rome. The word comes from the French, 11th/112 centuries, where it was linked to heresy, but whether English users remained aware of that, and for how long, must be questionable. Johnbod (talk) 13:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Oxford English Dictionary is certainly a strong source; however, it by no means clear of criticism.  First, although the OED is excellent for etymology, how do you explain the fact that "faggot" is mostly used in American English, whereas British English is more likely to use words like "Bugger."  Language and culture takes on different significance when it crosses time and continents.  I can think of other examples, not just in language usage, especially with the age of conquest and world exploration and trade.   All the same, it is ironic that "finocchio" in Italian is used like the American equivalent of "faggot."   Let's look at other English speaking nations and their use.   Let's also find cognative words for "faggot" or "fagot" in the French, Portuguese, Spanish and other languages of the world.   Finally, I am reminded of Black/ African American theorists criticism of etymology and linguistics.  Do note that both theorists like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X have criticized popular dictionary entries for the words "black" and "white," noting a seeming bias in the entries and definitions.   You see this contribution in many of their famous speaches.   Likewise, modern use of the words "gay" and "queer" have evolved over the years with changes to the dictionary.  Furthermore, the words homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual are words that were added to the dictionary just within the last century.  Before that, it was common to use slur words, if not those associated with the earlier era of the social movement, such as "invert" and so on.  The only arguement you may have in support of the OED is its use of historical timeline with etymology.   However, historians and anhropologists can be subject to correction, clarification or enlightenment, too.  As a case in point, consider the historic meaning of the words (lyrics) to the popular American song, Yankee Doodle. 69.109.208.103 (talk) 21:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)DjZ
 * Please correct the red link: "fennel." instead of "fennel". — ru:Klimenok 16:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.85.224.35 (talk)

Fixed Jeepday (talk) 16:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Etymology section
I've reorganised this section, and removed an unsourced claim that had been there too long. If anyone has a reliable source stating that homosexuals were regularly burnt at the stake in some English-speaking country, then please let us know. The finocchio stuff is interesting, but also needs to be sourced. It's also not terribly good evidence for the origins of English "faggot". Overall, however, the bundle-of-sticks explanation just seems rather unlikely; the old-woman etymology seems much more plausible. And that's not just me saying so: two reasonably reliable sources are of the same opinion. garik (talk) 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The "homosexuals burnt at the stake" theory seems to be a widespread belief. On that basis, its inclusion (with references to sources--which I suspect will date mainly to 1960s and '70s liberation theorists) might be merited, along with the discussion of why the theory might be less plausible than others. Rangergordon (talk) 04:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can find such sources, please update that section. It's crying out for good citations! garik (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

"Fuck-and-Go"
In the UK "FAG" is used as an acronym for "fuck-and-go" sexual behaviour stereotypical of gay/bi men, i.e. men in the LGBT community who typically have "no strings" one-night stands purely for sexual gratification, involving very little or no emotional intimacy. Such interactions rarely involve the sexual partners sharing a bed for the night, for example, as typically one of the partners will leave shortly after orgasm.

The slang term originated in the late 1980s as a sideways reference to the marketing by Proctor & Gamble of its shampoo & conditioner all-in-one product Wash & Go. The original TV adertising of the product extolled the virtues of saving time, energy & trouble by having to use only one product instead of two.
 * Interesting but we, of course, need a reliable source to use this content. --  Banj e  b oi    00:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Editorializing and comments not directly related to the entry
Lines suggested for removal.

Original: Someone with a harley.

Suggested read:

On July 27, 2006 American author and pundit Ann Coulter said that the former Vice President of the United States (Al Gore) was a "total fag" while being interviewed by MSNBC's Chris Matthews[17].

The referece to her comments about Clinton are not germain. Why not reference the rest of the interview? Only the total fag comment is appropriate. This is a list of usage in pop culture for the entry and not what ever she had to say about political figures in that interview.

The suggestionon that the comments caused a controversy in the LGBT community maybe true but is not sourced and in the event that it could be is not needed in the article. It also could be considered POV. Each item in the list of usages could have comments about the effect that they produced but would make the article unwidely. Keep it to just the referece used and document it. Anything else is editorializing. If she is a pundit she is also an author. Either add author and link it to american authors or just author or delete pundit.

Original:

On March 1, 2007, Coulter again created a controversy when she made an off-color joke: "I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, but it turns out you have to go into rehab if you use the word "faggot," so I'm kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards ..."[20][21] Her comments using the "f-word" triggered a campaign by a gay rights group and media watchdog to persuade mainstream media outlets to ban her shows and appearances.

Suggested read:

On March 1, 2007, Ann Coulter said "I was going to have a few comments on the other Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, but it turns out you have to go into rehab if you use the word "faggot," so I'm kind of at an impasse, can't really talk about Edwards ..."[20][21]

The phrases "created controversy" and "off-color joke" could be considered POV. At any rate there is no source that this was created or was off-color even though it may be. It is more in line to just have "Coulter said" just like the previouse mention of her comments two paragraphas above. Why use "f-word" when there is no source that is being quoted. Or is it necessary to use the ephamisim f-word in an article discussing the word faggot? Either way the fact that it triggered a campaign is not sourced. What campaign? What watchdog group? And even if it could be sourced as I'm sure it could, why include it? It's editorializing. Just list its' appearance in popular usage and document it. Just like the other references in this list.

If what I consider to be editorializing is being used to support why the reference is significant to be included in the list, why not do that for each entry? Let's just keep to a list of references or usage in popculture. Uniformity should win out over extraneous comments. These comments would be better suited for an article about homosexual references that led to public outcry or something like that. Heavywikiduty (talk) 17:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

poor substitute for
I read somewhere that fag/faggot is used a lot to mean 'poor substitute for', by analogy to the bundles-of-sticks used as a poor substitute for firewood (serving boy for servant, ciggarette for cigar, stand-in for soldure, lump-of-offal for meat, etc) and hence faggot comes from 'a guy is a poor substitute for a woman'.

anyone got any citations/mind if i plonk it in the article? --Dak (talk) 19:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Find a reliable source first then it could be written NPOV and added. -- Banj e  b oi   09:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

concerning burning at the stake
The line "Nevertheless, there is no tradition of burning at the stake being used as a punishment for homosexuality in Britain[4]" is NOT what the cited footnote indicates.

It reads: "The oft-heard statement that male homosexuals were called faggots in reference to their being burned at the stake is an etymological urban legend." This means burning at the stake is not the way homosexuals acquired the term fag/faggot.

Continuing: "Burning was sometimes a punishment meted out to homosexuals in Christian Europe (on the suggestion of the Biblical fate of Sodom and Gomorah [sic]), but in England, where parliament had made homosexuality a capital offense in 1533, hanging was the method prescribed." According to the source, burning at the stake was used to execute criminal homosexuals from time to time, just not as often as hanging.

The sentence as it stands implies no homosexuals were burned at the stake, & I think the wording needs to change, because it isn't true. Anyone have any ideas how to do this succinctly? wbm (talk) 04:43, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Not quite. What the source says is that burning sometimes occurred in parts of Europe, but not in England. It does say that "burning at the stake was used to execute criminal homosexuals from time to time", but it does not say that this ever occurred in England (the same can probably be assumed for Wales, which adopted English law at a reasonably early date; I have no idea about Scotland), and it implies that it did not. garik (talk) 14:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC) edited by garik (talk) 10:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I'm new and haven't worked out how to add to whats already written; however, my twopence worth. In England during my lifetime (nearly 50 years ) the word faggot or fag has been used to insult someone by inferring they are weak and feeble with the alusion that they are homosexual even when they are clearly not( gay is now also a term used for weak and feeble, as is fairy, but not queer). It has the same root as fag meaning cigarette, ie faggot is a small stick or twig used to light fires - hence obvious use as cigarette - and a twig is something weak and feeble as in the phrase " snap him like a twig". Faggots were usually collected by children not old women so the idea of a 'faggot carrier' being the source for faggot seems a bit out although possible. ( Pandderian (talk) 07:35, 12 November 2010 (UTC) )