Talk:Fakhr al-Din II/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Ganesha811 (talk · contribs) 00:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi! I'm opening a Good Article Nomination review. Hoping to complete the review over the next couple of days. I'll be using the template below. This looks like a big one - sorry you've been waiting a while! Ganesha811 (talk) 00:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , if you would like to start responding to some of the issues brought up during the review, particularly the sourcing, as I continue the prose review, that would be good. This one is taking me a bit longer to review due to my general unfamiliarity with the subject, so the quicker we can knock things down the better. Thanks. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:12, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * With regard to Abu-Husayn's Provincial Leaderships, this is a book and not a thesis/dissertation. The confusion is understandable considering the original publisher is the American University of Beirut (1985) - no ISBN. It was also published in 1985 by Syracuse University Press (ISBN 9780815660729) but I have and use the original edition. The author, and this particular book, are widely cited by scholars of the period, Abu-Husayn being one of the few leading authorities on the subject (the other major authority was his mentor Kamal Salibi). I will address the other issues raised asap. Thank you for your patience. Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your responses on the sourcing issues. Looks like we're well on our way to resolving all of them. The Daily Star issue turned out to be that my adblocker was blocking the content, oddly. Close to finishing my prose review so I'll have more comments soon. Ganesha811 (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , Let me know what you think of the changes I made. It would also be good to go through the prose issues, which should be relatively straightforward fixes. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No issue with the changes. I addressed most of the prose issues raised, but still working on shortening the Lead. Al Ameer (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , thank you, the prose fixes look good. Just two things left, then - shortening the lead, and the 'Memory of the South' source. Feel free to remove that source + the information it cites if that's the easiest fix. Ping me when you're happy with the lead and we can wrap up this nomination! Ganesha811 (talk) 14:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have made those changes to the lead, let me know if satisfactory. As for the material from Memory of the South, some of the material appears to be supported by additional sources. I do not have access to any of them so I will contact the original contributor of this section. If no luck, then I’ll have to hide/remove quite a bit of this section. Al Ameer (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Dear Al Ameer & Ganesha811, I am afraid that the "Memory of the South" does indeed not have an ISBN. I think I bought it in the shop of the AUB Museum and it is a real gem, as it contains both high quality photos and info on places in Southern Lebanon which are not easily accessible for obvious reasons. As a then-resident of Tyre I double-checked and found the info on the city all reliable. Personally, I find it a great chance of Wikipedia to feed in info from sources that you cannot have easily sent by Amazon the next day. For instance, I used to work a lot on Sudan and there is a great wealth of knowledge from local publications from University of Khartoum Press etc., which do not have ISBN either. But still: they can be verified, though it might be more difficult than for expample with a standard University of Oxford Press publication. Which is why there is on WP an unfortunate bias in favour of books from the Western World. However, it can be helped: like in the case of "Memory of the South" I would gladly email scans to those interested. It has been cited in other publications already so at least people know that it actually does exist. And on the other side I would argue that from my experience there are also books with ISBN which you can hardly get access to as well, especially if you sit in a place like Khartoum. For those reasons let me strongly plead to keep the reference and info. All the more so, because Southern Lebanon is such an important yet marginalised area with next to no specialised books on it and it deserves to be mentioned comprehensively in the context of Fakhr al-Din II, too. In any event, best regards & wishes RomanDeckert (talk) 09:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ,, thanks for this information. WP:AGF is one of the core principles of Wikipedia, so I'm content to trust you and keep the source+information in the article. If there are *any* other parameters or identifiers that you can fill out in the citation, please do so, to help future readers identify the source. Publisher, editor, photographer... whatever you've got. As to the article as a whole, I'll take another look, though on first glance I think the first paragraph of the lead could still some work. It spends the bulk of its time describing his area of power/influence, and only the very beginning and end actually talk about him and his life, accomplishments, or legacy. Take a look at it and imagine you are a reader who has literally never heard a thing about him before - it must be hard, since you have written this article, but I think it's a useful exercise. Most readers will not be Lebanese or likely very familiar with the geography of the region, so the list of place-names will be largely glossed over. That kind of detail should be further summarized and discussed later in the lead and body of the article. Ganesha811 (talk) 12:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Ganesha811, I really appreciate and shall try asap to find any additional parameters, though I think I already put in all I could get.. Dear, I did not want to interfere with the intro and obviously have not researched the emir nearly as much as you did, but sometimes it perhaps does help to have a bit of a distance to the subject and so I dare suggest the notion which I got from my readings, i.e. that his notability for present times lies in his aspiration to establish an independent state and that this has been widely viewed in the public discourse as the earliest vision of Lebanon as a country (I found this in: Bayeh, Joseph (2017). A History of Stability and Change in Lebanon: Foreign Interventions and International Relations. London / New York: I.B.Tauris. pp. 19–20, 33. ISBN 978-1784530976). Best of luck, RomanDeckert (talk) 22:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , thanks. I generally agree with your comments on the lead. We're there on everything but prose now! Ganesha811 (talk) 15:27, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I shortened it further but still trying different versions and scrapping them until I strike the right balance. The lead was the main issue I anticipated when nominating the article. It’s a bit complicated. Need to mention his formal and traditional roles in the first sentence or two as this is standard. The duration of his office/rule should also be mentioned. This sounds straightforward enough but Fakhr al-Din governed and tax farmed several districts and subdistricts, sometimes at once and sometimes at different periods, officially or in practice through family members and close associates. And this should probably be underlined by the fact that he ruled with great autonomy and power and was often seen as a rebel. He was an emir of the Chouf area Druze and later the paramount chief of all the Druze and he forged ties with the Maronites unprecedented in their closeness and impact at the time by any local outside of that community. As the idea of a greater Lebanon developed in the early 20th century he was naturally credited as the country's original founder though this is probably more nation-building myth than fact. This legacy role is very important but not sure if it should be in the first sentence but perhaps the last of the first paragraph, which should probably be 3 to 4 sentences. As for his accomplishments, they are many, but are best left for the third paragraph imo. I will continue to try different versions and welcome proposals as well. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , take a few days and come up with a version you like, and I'll take another look. I'm willing to accept something that's less than perfect, especially as this is a GA review and not an FA review. Ganesha811 (talk) 14:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , how's it going? Are you comfortable with where the lead is now, or are you still planning to do some more work on it? Ganesha811 (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I just finished the latest version and believe it should pass muster. I do plan on an FAC soon but would be prepared to rewrite the lead from scratch at the point if necessary. — Al Ameer (talk) 04:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , no I think you've done enough! The FAC crowd may have their own comments, but I'm prepared to say this passes the GA standard. Congrats! I'll do the needful now. Ganesha811 (talk) 04:57, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:left" ! width="30" | Rate ! width="300"| Attribute !           | Review Comment
 * - style="vertical-align:top;"
 * - style="vertical-align:top;"
 * colspan="3" | 1. :


 * I don't think the lead sentence is clear enough - it should mention the Ottoman Empire at least once and perhaps put his religious heritage after his political position. His "founding" of Lebanon might also be mentioned in the lead or second sentence.
 * A rough suggestion: "Fakhr al-Din II was a Druze emir under the Ottoman Empire who is considered the founder of Lebanon by the Lebanese people."
 * I made some changes to the same effect as what you proposed except I kept the “founder” credit to the last sentence of the 1st paragraph. I feel that a reader would need the context on what territory those sanjaks spanned to give them an idea why he was considered the founder of the modern country. Al Ameer (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The lead in general is somewhat too long. I would recommend combining the two middle paragraphs about his many exploits, summarizing and shortening a bit more, to allow the first and third paragraphs to have slightly greater weight in the section.
 * Agreed. I have started, but still working on this.
 * I have shortened it further by removing unnecessary context. Let me know if the current state works. Al Ameer (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 *  beylerbey is used without definition or explanation for the first time in the second section.
 * Done.
 * A sentence in Origins implies that ibn Farakh died in the 1585 punitive expedition, but then he pops up again in 1594. I assume you mean he was an ally to the Ottomans the earlier time? The sentence is confusingly written.
 * Changed, let me know if it makes more sense.
 * You say "according to abu-Husayn" for the first time in Rise without explaining who that is.
 * Fixed.
 * For "Mutual interests played out again", you could say "Their interests coincided again" which is clearer
 * Done.
 * "grand vizier" probably deserves a wikilink or parenthetical explanation the first time it is used. Same for "Porte" which is a term unfamiliar to those who have not read about the Ottomans. Sekbans also. You could move note 'h' up and use it to explain the term.
 * Done.
 * "The Ma'ns defeated them in four engagements in the heart of the Druze Mountain, and subsequently burned the provisions of the Druze in the Gharb, Jurd and Matn and the homes of the Arslan chief Muhammad ibn Jamal al-Din in Choueifat and Aramoun and those of the Sawwafs in Chbaniyeh." - run on sentence, should be split.
 * Done.
 * What does "massacred to extinction" mean? How many people are we talking about?
 * Their line was eliminated-seven men killed in total. Changed to “all were killed”. Al Ameer (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Missing comma between 'families' and 'in' - "Harris places Fakhr al-Din, along with the heads of the Janbulad, Assaf, Sayfa and Turabay families in the category of"
 * Fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Pass, no issues here.
 * - style="vertical-align:top;"
 * colspan="3" | 2. :


 * Pass - well-referenced.

Source check:
 * Is "Memory of the South" by Kemal Jaber a book? An article? Is this an offline source, and if so, does it have any kind of identifying code or ISBN we can add?
 * I could not determine that. Could you clarify what type of source this is and provide further citation information?
 * The Daily Star "News in Brief" link does not link to any actual content, the page appears to have moved. Al Ameer (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Please check again. The link works but the relevant section is at the bottom of the page. Al Ameer (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This article appears to rely heavily on Abu-Husayn's 1985 work, Provincial Leaderships in Syria, 1575-1650. Was this a doctoral or master's thesis, or something else? WP:SCHOLARSHIP says that theses should be used with caution, and are best when they have been peer-reviewed outside of the educational context, or else heavily cited from in literature. Is this the case for Abu-Husayn's '85 work?
 * Please see response above. Al Ameer (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Pass - issue addressed above.


 * Pass - no original research found.


 * Pass, no issues found.
 * - style="vertical-align:top;"
 * colspan="3" | 3. :


 * Spot check against sources shows no important information/areas left out. Pass.


 * I don't think the article is actually too detailed, in general, but I think some of the larger paragraphs and sections could be broken up a bit to make it easier for the reader to follow., would you mind if I went through and did that, and then we could discuss if there are any changes you don't like? Ganesha811 (talk) 19:58, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Not at all, please proceed! Al Ameer (talk) 03:30, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Pass, no issues found.


 * Pass, no issues here.
 * - style="vertical-align:top;"
 * colspan="3" | 6. :


 * Pass, no issues here.


 * Well-imaged for such a detailed article, captions are fine. Pass.