Talk:Fallout 3/Archive 4

Plot?
Ok, within playing three hours, I could have made a plot section the size of most other games. How are we going to pull something secent off on a game this big? 24.138.68.234 (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I only played the game for 8 or so hours, and from what I've seen there is no set plot. Players get the option to be good or bad, and which is wikipedia going to chose?--Megaman en m (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The main plot is about you catching up to your father and eventually finishing something he worked on (trying not to spoil anything here). It's actually neither very lengthy nor complicated, so I don't think it's going to be a problem. The sidequests are the bulk of the game, and they're not really something we have to write about here. -- aktsu (t / c) 18:32, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The plot is screwed up in current form. I was reading it and wanted to fix a problem--there is no requirement to kill the Overseer to escape. Even if you attack him, he's going to react. He will chase you--just leave. There's a lot of ways to prevent his death or go forward with his death. Other than that, I'd say mention the beginning plot. Your player is born, selects attributes, has a quest at age 1 to be SPECIAL, at age 10 introduces PIPBoy and VATS, at age 16 to take the GOAT, and their final quest to escape the vault. Follow that up with going to Megaton, where you really get a broad spectrum of choices. Detonate the bomb or disarm the bomb. Do a few side-quests or favors. You can roam anywhere right out of the Vault. Ensure that the plot doesn't mention being born in the vault--as that's simply not true. You don't enter Vault 101 until after your birth--as revealed by hacking Colin's computer and dialogue with NPCs. You and your father were born outside of the vault: he was working on Project Purity with Doctor Li and a few others, under protection of the Brotherhood of Steel to get the Purifier working. It doesn't--they need a GECK. Upon the character's mother's death, Dad and the infant character travel to Megaton and then to Vault 101. The Vault had been opened prior, as a mistake of the Overseer's generation. They presumably bring some wasteland-dwellers of significance into the vault, specifically being your father and yourself. The Vault's then sealed and everyone old enough to remember covers it up. From the information available (Vault 101 was only to hold 85 people), it appears that there is single generations within a few years of each other--there are no young adults and no new children, so 19 years prior the Vault was closed with a new generation. The parents know, but just lie to protect the kids. Anyways--back to the point. Mention the main quest--leave the vault, visit Megaton, visit Rivet City, find Dad, go back to Rivet City, fix the Purifier, escape to the Citadel, find a GECK, be captured by the Enclave, then either use the vial acquired there to poison the purified water (killing Ghouls and Mutants) or just turn the purifier on in current form. -Bobsama —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC).

Game Rankings/Metacritic
Don't have time now but could someone update the average review sites, currently theres just one and all three have different scores and number of reviews. Stabby Joe (talk) 03:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Music
Would someone please make a start on tracking down the music from F3? I have to wait to afford games :o( Anarchangel (talk) 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On it. the skomorokh  18:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sweet. WD. Anarchangel (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_(song) is definitely in the game. It's catchy. Townhouse21 (talk) 09:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The Track "Happy Times" (length 2:45) performed by Bob Crosby and written by Johnny Green and Sylvia Fine for the Danny Kaye film "The Inspector General" should be added to the Soundtrack section.

Other tracks are reportedly.

01 - Civilization 3:07 Andrews Sisters & Danny Kaye

02 - Way Back Home 2:54 Bob Crosby

03 - Into Each Life Some Rain Must Fall 3:10 Ella Fitzgerald with The Ink Spots

04 - Anything Goes 3:04 Cole Porter

05 - Fox Boogie 3:16 Trede, Gerhard (GEMA) (C)

06 - I'm Tickled Pink 1:52 Shaindlin, Jack (BMI) (C)

07 - I Don't Want To Set The World On Fire 3:07 The Ink Spots

08 - Jazzy Interlude 2:52 Munn, Billy (PRS) (C)

09 - Jolly Days 1:41

10 - Let's Go Sunning 1:41

11 - A Wonderful Guy 2:48 Margaret Whiting

12 - Rhythm for You 2:59 Christiani, Eddy; Poptie, Frans

13 - Butcher Pete Part 1 2:28 Roy Brown

14 - Butcher Pete Part 2 2:43 Roy Brown

15 - Mighty Mighty Man 2:36 Roy Brown

16 - Swing Doors 2:59 Gray, Allan (GEMA) (C)

17 - Maybe 3:06 The Ink Spots

18 - I Don't Want To Set The World On Fire 3:00 The Ink Spots

19 - Crazy He Calls Me 3:05 Billie Holiday

20 - Easy Living 3:06 Billie Holiday

21 - Boogie Man 2:23 Phillips, Sid"

Bloodholds (talk) 03:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Butcher Pete Part 2 is not in the game 207.250.116.150 (talk) 15:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I see a song missing on this list, however, I won't add it in right away. I'll place it here,

and if there are problems, concerns, list them here first so they can be addressed here. The mising song (proposed addition)

22 - "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" (?:??) Gil Scott-Heron  KoshVorlon  > rm -r WP:F.U.R     21:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What? Where was that song in the game? 124.169.108.38 (talk) 01:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not in any particular place... it played at random times on Galaxy Radio during the game.

 KoshVorlon  > rm -r WP:F.U.R     16:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference 75
The quote seems to have changed, maybe someone should update the quote or something. Ameki (talk) 20:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The quote is "While Inon Zur's score is filled with epic goodness, the real star of Fallout 3's music is the vintage songs from the 1940's." Our version replaces "While" with "[w]hile" for grammatical reasons, and inserts sic so that the reader understands that the grammatical error ("the star" is singular, while "the vintage songs" is plural) is in the original. Hope this helps, the skomorokh  20:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot
Add a "spoiler warning" to the article's plot part. I was reading and haven't finished the main quest, and accidentally read parts of the plot I did not want to hear up front. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.214.3 (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This isn't neccasary. What would you expect if you read a paragraph under the headline: "Story"?--Megaman en m (talk) 15:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect/irrelevant information
"Weapon schematics can also be found and used to create various devices such as the Rock-it Launcher, created by combining a leaf blower and a wood chipper, that can fire various items such as lunchboxes and stuffed animals, or the Clever Shrapnel Bomb, made out of a Vault-Tec lunchbox and bottlecaps."

The Rock-It Launcher is made out of a leaf blower and a vacuum cleaner, not wood chipper.

Also, the "Clever Shrapnel Bomb" is called the "Bottlecap Mine." Unfortunately, the only thing I can cite as a source is the game itself. Although it would give you crazy Wikipedians something to do for about a minute. Chop chop! Vicious203 (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Was here to read some stuff about the game after getting some play time in, and he's right it should be "bottlecap mine" ditto on the rock-it launcher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.92.108.28 (talk) 04:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Wrong name for Colonel
His name is Autumn, not Amber. (full: Colonel Augustus Autumn, it's the name spoken and IN THE TEXT) Crantor (talk) 17:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

dogmeat
dogmeat hasn't been mentioned in the chacters list of joinable npcs —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doodlecrazy (talk • contribs) 09:03, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

List him please,he's mentioned in the strategy guide.A lot of fans liked him if I recall.--76.208.58.137 (talk) 15:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

spoilers
Can we put a spoiler tag in front of the plot section? just inadvertently read it and ruined the game for myself. - Wickemt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.41.114 (talk) 23:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the character list of joinable NPS's because Wikipedia isn't a gameguide.--Megaman en m (talk) 14:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

It would only deserve a spoiler tag if people wouldn't think it would runin the story. For example when talking about weapons it mentions how the game ends, but talking about the story in the plot section is logical. If you don't want to know the story then don't read about it.

Oh and sorry about what happened, (124.184.114.24 (talk) 08:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC))


 * Wikpedia is not a gameguide.--Megaman en m (talk) 23:38, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you ment to do that on the section below, because it doesn't fit with this one. (124.184.114.24 (talk) 08:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC))

Minor errors in the home-made weapon's section
The Rock-It launcher is actually made from a vacuum cleaner, leaf blower, fire-hose nozzle and a conductor. The Bottle-Cap mine (not whatever it was called in the article) is a lunchbox, bottle caps, a cherry bomb and a sensor unit.

It's also probably worthwhile to mention the "Shishkebab" which is made from a motorcycle gas tank, a motorcycle handbrake, a pilot light and a lawn-mower blade. It's essentially a flaming sword, and is pretty awesome. There are also good sketches of it in the Fallout 3 art book.

Seems a bit game guidey but if it's in there it should correct.(124.184.114.24 (talk) 08:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC))


 * Okay, reworked to avoid the ref conflict...obviously, if the ref doesn't match the actual game, its pretty worthless. I think two examples are enough, so I left out the Shishkebab. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 11:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Engine
It should be noted that Fallout 3 uses the Havok physics engine and the SpeedTree foliage engine. Darkicon (talk) 06:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No, mentioning the engine itself is sufficient. We don't need to mention RAD Game Tools, libvorbis, and all the other third-party middleware that's bundled in a game.--Voidvector (talk) 15:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

External Link to Forum?
Would the addition of a 3rd party forum be acceptable in the external links section? If yes, could someone add http://www.fallout3zone.com, aka Fallout 3 Zone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aceaus3000 (talk • contribs) 15:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It isn't notable.--Megaman en m (talk) 16:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * How so? It's quite active. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aceaus3000 (talk • contribs) 23:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't mean it isn't important, just that it doesn't have any bearing on the article, unless its a offical site but it is not a offical site.(124.184.114.24 (talk) 23:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC))

planes
if anyone is wondering, the planes on rivet city(and some in the technology museum) are American P-80 or YP-80 Miaoo1016 (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miaoo1016 (talk • contribs) 21:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source to support it, feel free to add it!. And please sign your post by typing four tildes at the end of your messages.--Megaman en m (talk) 12:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot: Story
"While the game is designed to be played in whatever manner the character desires, the central plot of the game deals with the main character trying to find his father, James," should be changed to, "While the game is designed to be played sandbox style, the main quest is linear with the central plot of the game dealing with the Vault 101 Dweller (the PC) trying to find his father, James," for clarity's sake. I can't edit the article (I'm not autoconfirmed yet, need 10 edits) so it'd be nice if someone made this change. UncannyGarlic (talk) 23:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I incorporated your suggestion though with some small modifications to make it flow with the rest of the paragraph. Any comments let me know. Nick Ottery (talk) 12:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Better than what I wrote but it feels choppy to me. The sentence, "The main plot follows the Player Character's attempts to locate their father, James," should be moved to before, "Shortly after the Vault 101 Dweller (the PC) turns 19, their father disappears from the Vault in mysterious circumstances," for better flow and so that all of the story is together and the general information about it precedes it.  Also the following, "After being threatened by the Overseer of Vault 101 the player has to escape the Vault, emerging into the wider world and then pursuing James, tracking him first to a radio station," needs a comma after Vault 101 or, "the player has to escape the Vault" needs to be moved to before, "After being threatened by the Overseer of Vault 101." UncannyGarlic (talk) 07:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there a particular order that the story should actually go in. I haven't read much of the plot section as I haven't begun to touch on the main stoyline yet, however the article says that you first go to the radio station. My first port of call was Megaton and I was told to go to the GNR station whilst I was there. Also I haven't gone to the station yet and actually managed to meet my father which was very annoying as I had to quit and load a save that was about 20/30 mins earlier. Don't know how near the end of the game that would be. I'm not sure how the storyline section should be done as you can clearly skip out most of the main quest if you know where you need to go or are just exploring, and people writing might have missed certain things out on their first play through. Dark verdant (talk) 12:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You can skip sections but there is a linear order that it progresses in. I do believe that you are right that Megaton is the first step for the main storyline right out of the vault.  While you can't use it as a source, I think that following the order that The Vault has them listed is the correct way of going about it as it lists them in order of acquisition, hence the route through the main quest (it also lists how they can be skipped and such, not that it's relevant to the main quest but I thought it worth mentioning since you mentioned skipping parts).  UncannyGarlic (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Should it be noted that you can skip the entire Megaton and the radio station part? By doing those parts you find out that you need to get to Vault 112, but if you go to Vault 112 right after you leave Vault 101 (before Megaton), you will simply continue the storyline.--Megaman en m (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Miscellaneous fixes still to be made
As the article is currently locked, I can't fix the typo "amound" which occurs late in the "Plot" section.

Add any other minor fixes here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.242.151.221 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the "amound" typo along with some other typos.--Megaman en m (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Sales
I have read in several sources (i.e.) that the game has sold well, but I don't know where to add this in the article. --Harac (talk) 22:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi guys, I would like to comment in the reception area that among fans it is generally considered a fun game, but would "not" be considered Canon to Fallout 1 and 2 because of the many glaring errors and inconsistencies presented.

It is considered more of a Spin-off game, like FOS: Brotherhood of Steel. (even though that game wasn't fun) ---EzekielArkady (talk) 07:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure if its notable, but if you are going to add something make sure you have reliable sources from offical sites (forums are not reliable). Dark verdant (talk) 09:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Besthda has the say-so on what is and isn't cannon and they give Fallout 3 the O.K., so unless its a besthda source it most likely doesn't count as relible.(58.168.123.66 (talk) 23:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC))

No, it's not really up to Bethesda to define what is cannon and what is not. The theme defines that. I'd also suggest to delete the following: "Sales for Fallout 3 have thus far been very high, and figures suggest that the game has outsold all previous Fallout games (including spin-offs) in its first week.[79]" - Reason: Irrelevance and the point that comparing games from different times is a pointless thing to do. Would anybody write on a mobilephone article that the newest version has outsold mobilesphones from the year 1998? Of course not, because it has nothing to do with each other. 117.14.205.7 (talk) 03:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well there is official canon, which are the events, settings, people, etc. which the current owner of the franchise says happened and is part of the franchise. Then there is the Fallout Bible canon, which attmepts to go further into explaining the Fallout universe and correcting some errors in Fallout 2.  Then there is Van Buren canon, which includes a more of the Fallout Bible than Bethesda canon but not all of it aswell as the parts of Tactics which don't breach canon created by Fallout 1 & 2.  Lastly there is the fan accepted canon which includes all of Fallout 1 and all of Fallout 2 which does not breach Fallout 1's setting, theme, and tone (so it excludes New Reno, Hubology, talking Death Claws, Vault Experiments, etc.).  The latter most is fairly consistent though there is some debate over some of the details.
 * Thinking of Fallout canon like Star Wars canon is a decent way to go about it. There are a few camps of Star Wars canon.  There is the official canon, which is all 6 films, the extended universe, "official" games, books, comics, etc., and original trilogy canon which consists of those who exclude all of episodes I-III and those who just exclude parts which breach Star Wars theme, setting, and tone (medicloriants being the most prominant).
 * All that said, finding sources for the different camps for canon will be a struggle.UncannyGarlic (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Introduction
Given the current tag status I have expanded the introduction. As a basic layout I followed the BioShock article leader. Does anyone have any comments? I feel that perhaps the response paragraph needs more generalising. Nick Ottery (talk) 12:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I like what you wrote but there are very similar thing written in the reception section, such as how 1UP praised the game for its open-ended world etc... And I don't think that the reception belongs in the intro, I think it belongs in the, well, reception section.--Megaman en m (talk) 14:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Things are meant to be duplicated in the introduction: see WP:LEDE, whcih says that the intro should serve as an overview of the article's key points. The expanded intro is excellent IMO, and I've de-tagged it; if anything could be improved it's as Nick suggested, in that the reception comment could be made to be more of an overview rather than giving specifics. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, as I said I basically followed the BioShock leader which does summarise the game's reception etc. I see no problem with an introduction section covering ground that is then covered in more depth later on. If anything it suggests the reception part of the article could be expanded upon? Nick Ottery (talk) 21:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. Feel free to add to it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Controversies
I see a lot of recent activity in the section on cannibalism etc - I think this ought to be worked on in the discussion page rather than flip-flopping the main article back and forth. I have not come across any notable articles which discuss these controversies. Until this happens it is simply the opinion of an individual editor. IMHO murder etc is more than likely to be a part of a post-apocalypse game and no longer feels particularly controversial. I'm willing to have my opinion changed, but let's see some verifiable sources. Nick Ottery (talk) 11:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I don't see any importance/contoversy over these issues. There are many other games that include some if not all of these issues. Prostitution, Fable 2 and Fable Lost Chapters (hell you can even dress up as a woman and prostitute yourself out). Cannibalism (WoW, if you are an undead you can cannibalise humanoid corpses to restore health), theres not many games that don't have some sort of murder, fable 2 alows you to sell people into slavery. Also im pretty sure Nova isn't the only person you can kill in their sleep and cannibalise. Why is destroying Megaton with the bomb controversial, compared with all the other killing you do in the game. Dark verdant (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Of the things mentioned in the section in question, only the issue about Bethesda not allowing children to be killed in the game is something which IMO might be considered for inclusion. The other "controversies" is such minor points that I don't see how it'll pass WP:UNDUE, even if an article about it is found. I might be wrong of course, but this is going from what I've seen/read so far. Also, as I wrote in my edit summary, the description of the setting and karma system probably don't belong in the "Reception" section where it is now, and should instead be merged with the previous mentions of it longer up, given the issues of original research is resolved. -- aktsu (t / c) 11:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I neglected to include details in my edit summary on the controversies page, so I'll post here. The controversies section, specifically the parts about murder, assassination, and the child-killing XP exploit, were EXTREMELY poorly written, using excessive sentence syntax and including too many caveats to make what should have been a relatively straightforward point. So much so, I had a tough time deciphering just what the author of that particular section was trying to convey. I rewrote the section in a more understandable manner while doing my best to retain what I felt the point was. To whoever the author was, I want to remind you that Wikipedia should not be written in such a way that only those with a Master's Degree in English Language can read it. Keep it simple in focus, even if you're using descriptive words and long sentences.Tenraixtreme (talk) 00:02, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that looks a lot better, although that first sentence is still a pretty effective tongue-twister. I still believe this doesn't fit in the "reception" part of the article. I will look at incorporating it into the gameplay section. I think it still suffers from some non-encyclopedic language - for example "peculiarly ironic" which I will also consider changing. Nick Ottery (talk) 08:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It does look better but I too think that most of it doesn't belong there. The child killing section should be there, but the cannibalism, murder and prostitution shouldn't. Looking at the other controversies they actually explain why they are controversial (eg getting rid of the blow up megaton quest for Japan) however there is no explanation as to why cannibalism, murder or prostitution is controversial in the game. I agree it should be incorporated into gameplay section, that is if it is even notable considering the increasing amount of games that also contain these themes. Dark verdant (talk) 08:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not particularly sure that the mention of Cannibalism is intended as metion of something controversial, I personally didn't find it the least be controversial. Of course, I do wonderhow it's worth mentioning. The only time I ever see it brought up in reviews is when someone is pointing out how silly it is that Child Killing in a first person shooter would get a game banned but killing and cannibalizing prostitues after sleeping with them doesn't. That's an issue that should be taken up with the ERSB and Bethesda though, not brought to the Wikipedia forums. It could just be that someone is trying to create a controversy where there just isn't one, maybe the section needs to be renamed and reformated to be about the child killing exploit. --Valentine82 (talk) 14:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

--Valentine82 (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Level 20 Cutoff
The internet is rife with complaints that there is a maximum level of 20 in Fallout 3, which was not the case in other Bethesda games. Players who planned on being jack of all traits characters are screwed. Players also look forward to being able to work towards getting all the perks, but that can't happen because level 20 cutoff. People are HEATED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.164.35.150 (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * People always complain about minor things on the internet, unless a reviewer complained we can't ad random forum user opinion. Stabby Joe (talk) 02:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. At best this is a gameplay mechanic which forces you down one particular road or another. It may merit inclusion in the gameplay section if anyone can find a reliable source that discusses this. Nick Ottery (talk) 08:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And what are you trying to say? Wikipedia is not a forum.--Megaman en m (talk) 11:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Many games have level caps eg Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, WoW, City of Heroes/Villains so it is nothing new. However I am in favour of mentioning that there is a level cap in the gameplay section. I don't think that gamers complaints about it in a forum warrants any mention, in my opinion it is not notable Dark verdant (talk) 12:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. "OOh, the Internet is rife with complaints! That's never happened before - it must be important!" Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides it's my understanding that there are in game cheats and mods to circumvent this, and that expansion packs may be in the works making an increased level cap an added incentive to buy future expansions. I don't see why complaints about a level cap is worth mentioning, that belongs on the Fallout 3 wiki site, not on wikipedia's Fallout 3 page.
 * I doubt even there... Stabby Joe (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

There should at least be a warning or some kind, especially since the last Bethesda game people played was Oblivion which didn't have the limit. Even going from level 19 to 20, they don't say "this is the last perk you're going to be able to select" or anything like that. You get all these quests that you've been getting experience for, then you have a list of quests remaining once you get there and you get no experience. It also means you're permanently locked out of some computers and locks if you didn't juice your stats the right way. Other bethesda games have not had this, it is a change in operating procedure, it should go on the page. It's a source of information, and players coming to wikipedia for information about the game while playing could very easily find this information useful. It could not hurt to give players this information, and most people won't go to the game's wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.63.201 (talk) 01:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Firstly, it already mentions the level cap in the Game Mechanics Overview section of the article, and secondly if you read the instruction manual that came with the game you will see that there is only a list of perks up to level 20. This should be enough information to let people know about the cap, I understood that 20 was the highest level when I got the game which I must have got from reading on here or reading the manual. Also if the game didn't have a level cap people would be complaining that there were no new perks available after level 20, or something even less trivial, people do like a good moan especially in forums. I don't think any more information about the level cap is important unless a reliable source writes an article stating otherwise. Dark verdant (talk) 09:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly. It's not going in just as a public service. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Regarding the manual: if it's not explicit, it's not there. And it's not explicit. So it's not there. In loads of other games (Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: Tactics) there are limits to the level of perks, but that doesn't mean you cannot advance beyond that level. There are many perks in the game and you cannot get all of them by level 20, or even level 40 (in fact there are 92 levels of perks, some which are obtained through quests, and one taking up to 10 levels). I say it is definitely not clear by any official source, that there is a level cap of 20.FrederikHertzum (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Fan reception
There's a review written by a community member at, hope it's notable enough for you POV nazis. 85.221.144.107 (talk) 05:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Being Nazis has nothing to do with it. Wikipedia requires reliable sources, fan reviews are not reliable. Dark verdant (talk) 18:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Why then is GameSpot, a source who fired an editor-in-chief for posting a negative review on a game from a company who spent a large amount of money on advertising there ? Or the IGN review which had the complaints of bugs edited out at one point until the story about it spread ?  Just saying that if "reliable" reviews are all that can be posted, I think it's fair to say that GameSpot isn't reliable in general and IGN is certainly not reliable for Fallout 3, even if the review was reverted.  That said, Wikipedia requires notable sources and notable isn't necessarily reliable.  I think it's fair to say that in the Fallout fandom, NMA (along with D&C {duck and cover}) is probably the most notable site, though I'm not sure if that is enough for it to be posted in the review section.  Something along the lines of 'No Mutants Allowed, a prominent Fallout fan site, said in their review of the game that, "It’s a good and entertaining action RPG provided you can ignore the fact that it was supposed to be a Fallout game and mentally block that aspect of it, and if you can do the same about the silly “amusement park” setting."'  On a seperate note, I'm going to go ahead and edit in complaints about bugs and the like (from multiple sources, one of which is IGN), my exact edit is listed in Archive 2, it wasn't made at the time because the article was semi-protected but it fulfilled the request of a member for notable sources. UncannyGarlic (talk) 03:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can see your point but unfortunatley its up to wikipedia as to what constitutes reliable and notable, I would be happy to see fansites and their info as I tend to trawl the forums of games anyway to find out other peoples' views on them. If anyone else thinks the IGN review (edited then unedited) is notable and the source is reliable I think that it should go in the article, maybe the sacking too if it was relating to Fallout 3. Although maybe IGN should be deemed an unreliable source now if they did actually attempt to post an edited review. The only problem with fan sites is that they are made by fans and would be biased toward the game. Wikipedia needs professionals' opinions rather than those of the average person. Dark verdant (talk) 09:24, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that putting in the NMA review is a bit dubious and that it doesn't deserve more than a sentence (hence my suggestion of what to be added) but do note that Thomas "Brother None" Beekers is a game journalist for GameBanshee and that Vince D. Weller (aka VDweller) is a developer for Iron Tower Studio. That said, Mr. Beekers has repeatedly stated that NMA is not a professional publication and thus does not have to hold up to journalistic standards so it's a mixed bag.  My point wasn't that NMA was a reliable source but rather that some sources which are considered reliable are iffy.  I think that it's also probably noteworthy that the conditions which the prerelease reviews were done in were questionable(PCPowerplay said that they played it in the same hotel for the same amount of time I do believe) for reliable reviews. Also note that NMA does have some articles which I do think are good enough to be sited on Wikipedia (their preview of Fallout 3), it's just that said articles are no longer relevant (the information is out of date).  I think the biggest problem with the NMA review is the quotes at the start of each section, while clearly satirical they are also clearly unprofessional.  Again, I think it's a toss up and can see why it would or wouldn't be included.  UncannyGarlic (talk) 22:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On top of that, the distinctly minority opinion of some guy on the most hardcore conservative Fallout website on the Internet is not "fan reception" anyway. I'm sure it's fairly easy to find a reliable source which would indicate that it was guaranteed that some weenies would hate the game viscerally. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Fallout 3 Editor and DLC announced.
http://www.edge-online.com/news/fallout-3-editor-announced Add this in the main article. Thanks. --SkyWalker (talk) 15:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I read something last night saying that PS3 won't be getting the DLC because they didn't think PS3 owners would buy the game or want the DLC (which I think is absolutely absurd in this age of updatable console games) should this be mentioned? Cant remember the link at the moment, if anyone else has seen it would be good to see if others think if its notable or not. Dark verdant (talk) 13:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's worth including their official rationale. UncannyGarlic (talk) 04:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Version
Just noticed that in the info box it says version 1.0.0.15(?) which I assume is the PC version. However what happens if/when PS3 and Xbox are updated. My game didnt update when I first played so I assume it is still version 1.0.0.0(?), will Xbox and PS3 versions be put on the list separately as they will probably not be version 1.0.0.15. Just a thought. Dark verdant (talk) 16:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not a fan of including this sort of information in an info sidebar for an article. A) It requires waaaaay too much constant updating for a picayune bit of information, B) It seems to me to fail WP:NOTE, and C) as Dark verdant points out, there may be disparate versions for different platforms.  Can this be removed from the sidebar? Deltwalrus (talk) 16:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm in agreement for removal as per resoning from Deltwalrus Dark verdant (talk) 17:32, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If people are wanting to keep the version it probably needs changing, as of yesterday PS3 received an update for Version 1.1, this was the trophies patch however the blog on the Fallout website states that it fixes the game freeze when you get the messages of freinds coming online and also some other bug fixes. Not sure what the fixes are as I cannot check if its been updated yet. If anyone else wants to check the fallout webiste to see if they have stated the fixes please do so. Dark verdant (talk) 15:04, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference 78 - Sales
"Sales for Fallout 3 have thus far been very high, and figures suggest that the game has outsold all previous Fallout games (including spin-offs) in its first week." I'm a bit dubious about that claim simply because it provides no sales figures. I checked the other Fallout game articles and they don't even mention them but I'd feel a lot more comfortable about the claim that Fallout 3 outsold them if someone could provide the lifetime sales for the four previous games. I've seen two sets of sales figures for Fallout 3, the first of which totals somewhere in the 500,000 range while Bethesda claims to have shipped about 4.7 million units, the latter of which I assume to be more accurate. UncannyGarlic (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * [|//www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/fallout-3-outsells-all-previous-titles-in-the-series-combined] This article from gamesindustry.biz seems to support the above claim; Although it references the proper sales figures, it does not actually source them itself. Grain of salt.  Deltwalrus (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Developers and publishers do not rate games, the ESRB does
Bethesda also chose to rate the game M for mature

Inaccurate and misleading. Only the ESRB grants ratings to games. Publishers and developers can develop toward a target rating, but it is not up to their determination. I propose changing the above text to "Bethesda also chose to pursue an ESRB rating of M (for mature)" Deltwalrus (talk) 19:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, go ahead. UncannyGarlic (talk) 04:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Done! Deltwalrus (talk) 16:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference for Japan version censorship
I added a ref for Fallout_3, hope no one minds. Seemed to need one. Deltwalrus (talk) 16:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems strange that the phrase 'fat man' was changed in this game, considering Metal Gear Solid 2 had a character called Fatman who made bombs. Oh well, that's censorship for you. AlexFili (talk) 18:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Slightly different point as Fat man was a nuclear bomb that killed thousands, whilst Fatman made non-descript bombs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.113.180.236 (talk) 12:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Additional Controversy
Not sure if this is relevant or not but I decided to present it here for opinion. Due to their graphic nature, the majority of media promoting the game was removed from GameTrailers.com by order of the ESRB inciting much anger from the site and the game's publisher. The videos were said to be garnering the website huge numbers and on the verge of "10 million views". No written articles unfortunately but it is discussed in length during a GameTrailers podcast "invisible walls". Episode 31 on this list, http://www.gametrailers.com/invisiblewalls_list.php. Towards the end.--Limericklad23691 (talk) 01:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Bethesda has commented on leak
"Bethesda Softworks was aware of the situation, but made no public comments concerning the leak"

was in the article. However, on websites like kotaku.com, Bethesda has said that they are looking into it.

link: http://kotaku.com/5062027/bethesda-looking-into-fallout-3-leak SSBBchamp (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

"It has been compared to the 2007 game BioShock for its setting and use of elements from mid-Twentieth Century American culture."
I don't understand what that's supposed to imply. The Fallout retrofuturistic setting came way before Bioshock.. we're talking about Fallout 1 here. If anything, you should reverse it and put it in the BioShock article and remove it from here. -- nlitement [talk]  01:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

1-"we're talking about Fallout 1 here" wrong article.

2-Fallout 3 is the first to use 3-D.

3-Nobody has compired Bioshock to fallout 3 so it can't go into that article. (139.168.114.230 (talk) 06:45, 11 December 2008 (UTC))


 * 1-Nlitement was actually talking about the setting for the fallout series, they all use elements from mid-tewntieth century American culture and Fallout 1 was the first to do it, which came out before BioShock, so if anything Fallout 3 uses the elements of Fallout 1


 * 2-I don't think the dimensions have anything to do with setting and culture.


 * 3-If no one has compared BioShock to Fallout 3 then I agree it should not go into the BioShock article. However someone has compared Fallout 3 to BioShock so I guess the information should stay, we can't pick and choose certain bits of information only putting in the bits we like we should include everything that is relevant. Maybe if consensus agrees that article irrelevant then it may be removed Dark verdant (talk) 10:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I added the sentence discussed. I was basing it on the [referenced article]. I/the article was not implying that Fallout 3 was the first game ever to use elements of mid-20th Century American Culture, but that on this generation of consoles/hardware, BioShock used it to great effect, and can therefore be used as a comparator for a subsequent game. I argue that including the article as a reference to this point is relevant - I was not familiar with the world of Fallout prior to Fallout 3 but have played BioShock. The comparison between the two gave me useful information about Fallout 3. Nick Ottery (talk) 12:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Size of Game?
Does anyone have info on how large the gameworld is (in terms of Miles squared or kilometers squared) and if it is larger or smaller than prevoius fallouts?

Also, any info on the number of NPCs from game to game? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.99.42.180 (talk) 22:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the article says (maybe I just read it elsewhere) that it is similar in size to Elder Scroll Oblivion which was about 16 square miles. Obviously as the other Fallout games weren't 3D it is hard to compare.  The overall maps in the previous fallout game where much bigger probably close 200x200 miles, but didn't have any detail whatsover and were really just pictures with dots on them.  As for NPC, I havn't seen any estimates, but I would estimate that there are about 150-250 named NPCs with maybe a quarter of them with something unique to say, plus maybe 75 "Megaton Settlers" and their equivlent.  Definitely smaller than Fallout 2 but maybe similar in size to Fallout 1.   What actually got me was that there are only real 2 settlements with more than one or two quests associated with them as opposed to the previous game which had a bunch particularly Fallout 2 which must have had 10 or 15. --Leivick (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And why do you want to know this? Remember that Wikipedia isn't a forum.--Megaman en m (talk) 17:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the size of the game world is mentioned in some other articles, notably the Elder Scrolls ones which fallout 3 is based upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.99.42.180 (talk) 23:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

phone
Shouldn't we mention that the phone number of the trailer is real and you get a vault number / are in a waitinglists and many different links could be found by searching 1-888-4VAULT-TEC -- mabdul  0=* 22:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)