Talk:Fallujah/Archive 1

Talk:Fallujah archive

Warning
WARNING: Much of this article discussion is not editorial in nature but is a debate over the appropriateness of military operations in Fallujah. The Fallujah article has significantly improved in the last week (Nov 15 2004), but was at one time riddled with randomly pasted content on both sides of the issue. 52 Kb of discussion remains below, and includes much outcry over the Fallujah offensive and some suspicion regarding the NPOV foundations of Wikipedia. Not sure what to do with it all, but at least the article is looking better. Somebody may want to archive this discussion, but I don't know how to do it. User:MPS


 * OK, I can do that. :) Maurreen 06:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disclosure discussion
I removed the "disclosure" for several reasons. We really need a policy on this - starting from the fact that Wikipedia is part of a registered non-profit organization -not part of Bomis. Rmhermen 18:18, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * You don't need a policy to enforce shell games that hide funding sources and their ideological affiliations - state laws already require that non-profits not hide their funding sources. Bomis is the sole ongoing contributor to Wikipedia, providing bandwidth and server space, which is Wikipedia's primary expense. The disclaimer accurately states these facts, and does not misprepresent Bomis as the owner of Wikipedia. If the Wikipedia foundation does not disclose its funding affiliations with Bomis, it can face prosecution under Florida laws. If you have several reasons, state them. Otherwise, since Bomis is the primary sponsor of Wikipedia, and Bomis directs visitors to sites that raise money for 1st Marine activities in Iraq, disclosure is both appropriate and consistent with typical ethical practices. CNN still discloses its affiliations with former owners when its stories involve those sources, even though management has distanced itself from those sources. I moved the disclosure to the talk page to accompany your unexplained revert of a meaningful contribution. TruthSayer 18:31, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * A disclosure would only be useful if Bomis had any sort of editorial control over Wikipedia. It does not and most users have no idea what Bomis is or what it does. Also when did USMC operations start being funded by web donations? - SimonP 18:59, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * A disclosure would be useful for me because it would have spared me having to discover these relevant funding affiliations on my own. An interest in a better understanding of when the 1st Marines started relying on private funding solicited through on-line sources is irrelevant to the consideration of direct evidence that Bomis sponsors Wikipedia and that Bomis affiliates itself with sites raising funds for war-time propaganda. It is especially useful in the context of an article about the flash-point of a likely explosion of resistance in Iraq. Until this disclosure, the article only reported that "Marines" (not which division) discovered things, but did not qualify that the information was based solely on 1st Marine's claims to have discovered these things, repeated in freindly news sources.


 * The fact that "most users have no idea what Bomis is or what it does" - especially what it does for Wikipedia - suggests articles that overlap Bomis' propaganda interests are uniquely in need of a disclosure. A disclosuer could be best developed in articles describing Bomis, but lacking any other way to report the information, it is specifically relevant to articles in which the 1st Marines tactical and propaganda interests are considered, and in which Bomis is specifically directing its visitors to sites that support that specific unit's propaganda interests.


 * For guidance on when disclosures are typically offered, developed from the CNN example, Ted Turner has long since surrendered editorial control over CNN, but CNN continues to offer disclosures in stories that report Turner's activities, including the activities of foundations he endowed and organizations they fund.


 * Bomis' contribution to Wikipedia's editorial and administrative direction is debatable. Administrators have continually turned to Bomis' owner for guidance and absolution in execution of policies. His work under the title "God King" for several years encouraged new Wikipedia leaders to use cult-like language that discouraged opposition to his views, and to disparage those who offer counterveiling policies. Bomis's owner Jim Wales set the direction away from a peer-reviewed encyclopedia, and presents as a primary pundit against the pheasibility of reviewed encyclopedias in numerous interviews. That policy, driven by Bomis' desire for rapid development, made Wikipedia more available to those who present election-time and war-time misinformation. Though other editors ostensibly correct misinformation, there is no procedure to assure correction and when corrections are made, it can happen hours, days or weeks after the misinformation has been served and forked to readers and to other web services. During election or war-time propaganda campaigns, a few hours of misinformation can be useful. Bomis set the stage on which such misinformation can be presented. Bomis' CEO also states in interviews he hopes to profit from commercial release of a Wikipedia CD, which instead could provide revenue to advance the independant non-profit interests of the Foundation.


 * Wikipedia Foundation could easily distance itself from Bomis by finding other contributors to fund purchases of bandwidth, back-up and primary servers, house servers and server maintenance. Failing to do so, it is in keeping with common journalistic practices to disclose who pays for publication -- Bomis.com. Perhaps a savy investigator needs to review Wikipedia Foundation's 501(c)(3) and state non-profit reports to assure that its primary source of revenue - in-kind donations from Bomis.com - are accurately disclosed. The foundation could act in good faith by publishing those reports under the Wikipedia namespace.


 * In response to the question of when US forces started using private funding to support propaganda operations, the practice goes way back, but was widely reported during the Iran/Contra debate, when missles were privately traded to hostile nations in exchange for money used to support illegal Contra activities in Central America. The use of on-line fundraising might be a new tactic, which again points to a need for disclosure. TruthSayer 20:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * This is all still irrelevant in that no one who helped write this article is paid by or associated with Bomis. - SimonP 19:52, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Who pays for the printing of a newspaper is as relevant to some readers as is who wrote the articles. Journalists typically concur it is not the publishers' decision to decide when fiscal affiliations are relevant; instead journalists typically concur the information is best provided to readers who can individually make judgements about what is relevant to them. TruthSayer 20:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * From an article in American Journalism Review:
 * The online financial publication TheStreet.com discloses its investors and business partners and posts its stringent conflict-of-interest policy on stock ownership by employees.
 * CNET: The Computer Network discloses its investors and business partners and plans to post its in-house code of conduct. The model ethics code covers employee freebies and stock transactions, disclosure of the company's affiliations in news stories, even-handed use of hyperlinks and how to forthrightly correct errors online.


 * I'm looking for some more sources on ethical practices and standards of disclosure in new media.


 * Bomis' general interest that would suggest a need for disclosure include a policy of rapid development that resulted in a lower standard of credibility in Wikipedia, coupled with Bomis interest in profiting from rapid development of Wikipedia. Bomis' support for rapid development of a new information format that lacks the methodically enforced standards of credibility in better funded sources, while also promoting military alternatives to traditional regional information sources suggests it might best be left to readers to decide the implications of Bomis critical role in funding Wikipedia's ongoing operation. TruthSayer 20:17, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * From the American Society of Magazine Editors new ethics guidelines for on-line publications, developed largely without discussion of very new media such as Wikipedia, deal primarily with the relation between advertisers and on-line content:


 * To protect the brand, editors/producers should not permit their content to be used on an advertiser&#8217;s sitewithout an explanation of the relationship (e.g.&#8220;Reprinted with permission&#8221;).


 * 6.E-commerce commissions and other affiliate fees should be reported on a disclosure page, so users can see that the content is credible and free of commer-cial influence. Exact fees need not be mentioned, of course, but users who are concerned about underly-ing business relationships can be thus reassured.
 * TruthSayer comments:Bomis links to Wikipedia in the same sidebar that links to the Marine fundraising sites, but does not disclose in that space either its creation, on-going in-kind support or future profit interets in Wikipedia.


 * A website should respect the privacy of its users.If a site intends to collect information about its visi-tors&#8211;&#8211;whether the data will be disseminated to thirdparties or not&#8211;&#8211;it must offer users a chance to decline if they choose, through an &#8220;opt-out&#8221; option. As part of its privacy policy, the site should explain its use of cookies and other data collection methods and tell what it intends to do with the information it gleans.
 * TruthSayer comments:Wikipedia offers no assurance Bomis does not share its router logs with intelligence interests supporting the Marines in Iraq. Bomis pro-military stance raises a suspicion it could be inclined to use information about Wikipedia contributor interests, especially in controversial articles about the Middle East, to serve the military interets of one side in that conflict. Bomis appears to be a pro-Israel site, by the content of advertisements on its pages. Israel has a long history of tracking journalists' activities to identify the location or identity of its opponents, including some so identified then targeted for assassination. Wikipedians might need to know every keystroke they enter goes through Bomis' T1 lines and routers before it arrives at the Wikipedia server. Bomis has made no assurance of privacy to Wikipedia users, and has not promised to keep private user information beyond that that appears in the SQL database. This lack of privacy assurance implies a need for disclosure, especially on pages where Bomis favored military units are discussed.

How does privacy fit into this, how does Bomis' supposed links to the military-industrial complex threaten the privacy of its writers? - SimonP 20:56, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Did you actually read the comments and attempt to follow the reasoning of professional associations that have developed standards for privacy assurances in on-line publications? Your question has already been answered in the comments above. And the comments are not about the "military-industrial complex" as you snidely misconstrue, but rather specifically about an ongoing practice of some forces in the region to track journalists activities, and specifically about Bomis's access to router logs that are not available to anybody who does SQL dumps. Are you asserting that Wikpedia has no need to review its position vis-a-vis industry standards regarding privacy and disclosuer of business affiliations? JillP 21:07, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Jill, this is a typical administrative practice at Wikipedia of harrassing contributors with questions while refusing to respond to substantive debate, especially when the debate might in any way tarnish the reputation of this less-than-credible information source. This tactic was well developed in Stalinist show-trial purges and in Maoist ritual forced self-criticisms. Billigerant propaganda is easy to recognze. This practice offers ample evidence of Jim Wales influence on the project, in which all opponents are treated as evil and rhertorically shot on site. TruthSayer

I do not believe Wikipedia is a member of any professional associations. - SimonP 21:43, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Do you hold in contempt the ethics developed over several decades by professionals who have dedicated their lives to pursuing the endeavor you seek to administer as a hobby? Is it about whatever you can get away with? Do you have anything substantive to add to this discussion, are you on a power trip protected by your status as an administrator? SaltyDog 21:46, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Apparently the later, based on his five reverts in contravention of the three-revert rule, and his refusal to respond to the substance of concerns raised in this discussion. TruthSayer 21:49, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is one of the weirder discussions I have seen lately. Isn't it remarkable how three new user accounts with the same writing style have all appeared at once to argue the same points on the same article? I'm not sure what could we say that would provide conclusive proof that we're not part of a giant Israeli/CIA/Alien Abduction plot. Here's a hint: if you are this paranoid, it's reasonable to assume that anything you type, anywhere on the Internet is tapped, logged, and sent to the black helicopters in real-time. -- The Anome 21:50, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * No, understanding the truth about the operation of political intelligence requires a little more savy, some homework, and some patience for juveniles who hold in contempt legitimate widely discussed privacy concerns. One might start with a read of Body of Secrets by James Bamford, to get an idea of the signint processing capacity of the NSA. Then one needs to review actions under the Homeland Security Act, develop a general knowledge of on-line security issues in the context of current Internet technology, then - to cover gaps in reasoning unfillable due to what we cannot possibly know about what other people do - learn a little bit about the political affiliations of on-line services one uses. Nope, the last black helicopter I saw was a really cool McDonald Douglas MD520N NOTAR, which I quickly identified as belonging to a local retailer, a fact I discovered by walking into the airport and asking the manager about that nimble helicopter conducting manuevers he found very inappropriate in his airspace.


 * Oh, look, somebody has been so busy harrassing other contributors they haven't bothered to write articles about the topic of all those red links above, subjects about which they likely know nothing anyway.


 * Hysteria is probably a lot easier for you than is substantive contributions to a meaningful debate, Mr. "Anome". What part of the conjectured scenarios are you calling paranoid? That Israel historically tracks journalists to locate opposition fighters? That Wales has access to router logs not available to the general public? That industry standards encourage promises of privacy instead of bizarre insults lobbed at those who raise legitimate privacy concerns? You seem to hold in contempt any discussion that goes against the orders of the beloved God King of your cult. Cult allegiance is a very sad alternative to intellegent discussion. Why not go ride your imaginary Black Helicopter back to your fictional UFO and leave discussion of serious publishing standards to the grown-ups, okay? Your childish insults offer little currency in mature debate. JillP 22:15, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Misinformation littering Wikipedia
When the juvenille followers of Jim Wales' God King cult get over their fear of information that would disclose Wales right-wing Zionist ideology, the following paragraph needs to be inserted to replace the one that erroneously calls the former special forces soldiers (and action adventure television producer, in one case) employs for KB&R.


 * The US asserted that it hopes for a negotiated settlement but will restart its offensive to retake the city if one is not reached. Military commanders said their goal in the siege was to capture those responsible for the March 31 killings of four veterans of US special forces groups employed by Blackwater Security Services. US forces were unable to determine in early April whether those shown in news images attacking the company's elite security team had remained in the city or fled.

JillP

JillP, SaltyDog, TruthSeeker - all sock puppets?
Are these three users all sock puppets? Check their editing records... or perhaps the black helicopter brigade has mobilised en masse and wound up here? -- ChrisO 23:07, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I think that was TruthSayer, but yes, the history and writing style should make it obvious that they are the same person. And I might add that the style and tactics remind me somewhat of User:Bird. --Michael Snow 23:23, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds about right. Perhaps someone can do a fun log check. - Fennec 00:34, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I rather liked the way that at one point they started talking to one another. -- The Anome 07:22, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some bias and innaccuracy.
There are quite few innacurate information or biased views stated in the article. First of all, the "Fatal protest incident" says:

On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of 200 people celebrating the birthday of Saddam Hussein defied the Coalition curfew and gathered outside a school building to protest against the US-led coalition forces who had occupied the school.

During the protest, it is alleged stones were thrown at US troops. Fifteen unarmed Iraqi civilians died from US gunfire. There were no coalition casualties. /quote

There are a number of mistakes here:

-The article states that the crowd was celebrating the birthday of Saddam Hussein. This is far from truth, and such a claim should either be removed or a note should be added,aclearing that this is merely an allegation.

-The article states that there were allgations about stones being thrown at U.S. troops. Then says Fifteen unarmed Iraqi civilians died from US gunfire. There is technically nothing inaccurate in this point, the word "allegation" was used, and the fact was layed out. But, there is bias in it, it's what people call "half-truths", a fact is said, nothing technically worng with it, but other related and important facts are ignored. It should be stated that testimonies from eye-witnesses said that US soldiers started shooting with no appearant reason. The American story says that the troops were firing back at gun fire that came from some roofs, but eye-witnesses deny that. Any ordinary person who reads this article would think that those Saddam supporters started attacking U.S. troops so they had to open fire in self-defense.

When you quote allegations of one side and ignore the other sidess story, you are essentially promoting the story of the first side.

Unfortunatly, since the incedent is more than a year old, it's kind of hard to get links to reports about the incident. For the time being, try this: http://eatthestate.org/07-18/IncidentatFallujah.htm

The article also some times tries link the resistance in the city to Saddam Supporters and Forigen elements and even "gangs", this is very biased, as those are only the claims of the occupation. It should be stated that a large chunck of the resistance is made out of the local ordinary people who feel they have a duty to resist the American occupation of thier country.

Etymological fantasy
"There is some evidence that millennia ago a branch of the Euphrates divided off at that point, and that this is the source of the name, but today that branch has disappeared." This fantasy etymology is matched by the impossible geography, perhaps related to the canal that joins the Tigris to the Euphrates? Wetman 04:48, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Why do you question this? I got the origins of the name from an article in JSTOR on the region in Persian times. - SimonP 05:36, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

L2bairaq.jpg
I removed L2bairaq.jpg from the article, which seemed to serve no real purpose except (I think) to elicit an emotional response. Simoes 14:47, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I returned the picture because civilian casualties are relevant to military assaults on civilian centers. --Alberuni 16:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * If you mean relevant to battles between conventional and guerrila forces, when the guerrillas use civilians as human shields, then I vigorously agree. No matter how precise the GPS-guided bombings are, some civilian non-combatants are going to be killed if they remain in mosques or hospitals used by insurgents as hideouts or staging areas. Hmm. I guess I should write about US military "use of force" doctrine or rules of engagement in land warfare. --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 16:15, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * Some people seem to confuse high technology killing with high morality. --Alberuni 16:25, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * If the insurgents are using human shields then why has the U.S. military insisted that there are no civilian casualties in Fallujah? Did they somehow create a missile that only kills insurgents while avoiding the two or three human shields the insurgents are using to cowardly protect themselves? Richard Cane 08:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute
Okay, I attempted to make some edited to correct what I thought were pov problems, but all of them were reverted without discussion (with the exception of the image removal). Here are my complaints:

User:Simoes 13:32, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Use of scare quotes with objective terms (e.g., "security contractors")
 * Inclusion of blockquote-length editorial commentary from an Internet blogger
 * Inclusion of an image with no obvious purpose other than to elicit an emotional response
 * Reference to an uncited Newsweek article purporting that Pres. Bush gave the order, "Let heads roll."


 * I think we should be very wary of including specific casualty numbers, quotes, etc. No one knows precisely what is going on in Fallujah and both US military and local Iraqi sources are immensely biased.  I do think the image can stay for the present. At least until one more representative is found, as my guess is most casualties are not photogenic young girls. - SimonP 18:57, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * If you bring changes to long-established content to Talk first, they can be discussed and a consensus can be reached about editing. If you just edit them to suit your POV, someone is likely to revert in the interest of maintaining NPOV.


 * Scare quotes are bad and should be deleted. But should the article give a balanced impression that security contractors are civilians, mercenaries - or both?
 * What specific block-length comments are you trying to delete and why?
 * I responded to the picture concerns. I think the picture of an injured Falluja girl is a factual representation of the effects of military attacks on Fallujah, a civilian area. Therefore it is valid. Removing it seems intended to whitewash the civilian casualties ofUS military operations. Would you prefer a photo of the crater caused by a 2000 lb bomb? Or a nice photo of some US Marines saluting in the desert?
 * The Newsweek Bush quote is from a Juan Cole article and I can't find it elsewhere. I agree it is possibly spurious and should be deleted. --Alberuni 19:16, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The blogger quote I was referring to is the one by Rahul Mahajan.


 * As for the scare quote issue, I think calling them "security contractors" (without "civilian" in front of the term) is sufficient in that it lets the reader decide their civilian/mercenary/whatever status.


 * I agree with SimonP's statement with regards to the picture; it's not really representative. If I were writing a critique of the present Fallujah incursion, I would definitely include that photo. Maybe a broader hospital pic, or one of people carrying wounded off from a combat area, would be more appropriate here?
 * Simoes 19:48, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, the photo must go. Its purpose is not informative, but emotive. --mav


 * I disagree. Iraqi civilian casualties are a fact of US military activity. This is just one representative picture of a victim of US war in Fallujah. It is relevant and factual. Deleting such evidence under guise that it is emotive could be considered an attempt at censoring, diminishing, denying or concealing the real human costs of US military operations. --Alberuni 23:35, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The photo does not provide any information; it elicits an emotional response which is designed to support a particular POV about the conflict. The same would be true of a photo of US soldiers giving cheering children candy. --mav


 * Is it representative picture? Or is it an image of the type of person that is most likely to have an emotional effect on the audience? Something like  might be more honestly representative. - SimonP 00:07, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't see much difference in news value or emotional content between a photo of a wounded Iraqi boy or a wounded Iraqi girl. --Alberuni 02:26, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Of course, US Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said that civilians have been given plenty of time to get out of the way, so whatever happens to them is their fault. " "Innocent civilians in that city have all the guidance they need as to how they can avoid getting into trouble," Rumsfeld told a Pentagon news conference. He referred to a round-the-clock curfew and other emergency measures announced by interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. "There aren't going to be large numbers of civilians killed and certainly not by U.S. forces," Rumsfeld said." Why civilian casualties are important to the Americans (not for humanitarian reasons, of course): "One risk of using overwhelming force to regain control of rebel-held Fallujah is that civilian casualties - nearly inevitable under the circumstances - could trigger a backlash elsewhere in Iraq and in the Arab world against the U.S. forces and their Iraqi allies." 
 * Another photo of an Iraqi civilian, a child, injured by the US military assault on Fallujah.

Assault
Well, the assault has started. Should we do some heavy newslike coverage now, or?


 * Only major events in the assault need be covered I'd think. Actually, I was hoping to move the Seige to a new page, seeing as how it's taking up so much of the article. Oberiko 14:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Photo removed for being too Emotive - Thats Bullshit
Regarding the removal of the Boy killed as being too emotive - Well Enclycopedia Bratinnaca showed the twin towers collapse they are being emotive too - The Photograph of dead children Killed by Amercian forces is not imotive but informative - Just if Children are killed by terroists in the USA will be showen all over the world by media if this were to happen - Come off it folks - Human beings are the same - Are we all workinking hard at wikipedia as agents for the neo conservatives in Washington - We here to report facts without censor and do not follow the line of any Country engaged in an illeagal war against another which so far has cost 100,000 lives YES FOLKs I do not listen to Fox News to understand the world instead I read the Guardian, listen to the BBC and read their website and the Independent Newspapers as well as a host of newspapers both left wing and right wing from diffrent countries - I study first hand reporting from Iraqi blogs and Al Jazeera Arab news which has won prestegious awards by Western judges in Europe for un baised reporting.

Those days are gone when control of the news were in the hands of the few and powerful - Wikipedia a democratic information resource is an example.

If Wikipedia become a forum for those who follow the USA line then I think the thousands of its contributors beetr start another non baised Wikipedia

Lalit shastri India

Civilian casualties
There is nothing wrong with reporting on advocacy campaigns relating to civilian casualties. The US military sometimes refers to death and injury to non-combatants as collateral damage and requires local commanders to "minimize such collateral damage to civilian facilities in populated regions." 

Probably the most successful PR tactic used when opposing a US military campaign (such as Operation Phantom Fury) is to emphasize and publicize civilian casualties, especially to women, teenagers and cute attractive children. This is because Americans and American servicemen are highly moral - as compared to most foreign terrorists, anyway. It takes a steely resolve to make the mental effort to distinguish between accidentally casualties, or casualties caused by enemy use of civilans as human shields -- and deliberate or negligent targeting of civilians.

The claim that there are "no combatants in Fallujah" exploits American sensitivites and challenges its resolve. It's basically the same strategy that got the US to abandon South Vietnam to the North -- the pull-out led to over 1,000,000 civilan deaths: purges by the victorious Communists and deaths on the high seas by the "boat people".

I don't think high tech means high ethics -- but as a highly ethical man involved in high tech, I am gravely concerned about this matter. --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 18:11, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)