Talk:Falsetto/Archive 1

do women have falsetto?
I've been so curious for so long I don't even care if its added to the article, but if someone could explain to me why some people think women don't have falsetto (but instead a whistle tone?). I'm male, and I have trouble imagining not being physically able to use falsetto. I also have read articles speaking of the break in women's voice, but the break in my voice is between my regular voice and falsetto. Hyacinth 23:50, 8 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Hello Hyacinth! There are conflicting views on the registers of the voice, how many there are, what they are even.  Mostly it is a matter of semantics however.  Personally, I adhere to the school of thought which asserts there are but 2 registers in a human voice (regardless of whether you are male or female): Chest register and falsetto/head register. To answer your question, I think the reason why some people don't think women have falsetto is because in most women it is never heard.  Since women go through a much less dramatic voice change at puberty the voice never splits apart into 2 registers and hence they are integrated from the beginning.  The registers themselves are created by the dominance of one muscle group over the other producing widely disparate tonal qualities.  This is only possible to a certain extent within a narrow range of pitches (a flat below middle C and lower for chest and approximately b to b' for falsetto - incidentally the pitch range is absolute and applies to men and women) otherwise both sets of muscles are present to produce an integrated tone. Of course, it is much more complicated than this and perhaps someone should start an article about vocal registers. Whistle tone refers to a tone quality produced in the extreme upper reaches of a womans voice (above e''').divadiane 03:23, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks, the assertion ("women have no falsetto") now definitely appears to be sexism. I should have known, as this came from an aural skills (ear training) teacher who sat the class according to gender (not, even, by voice). Hyacinth 01:15, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, women can't lyrically sing in the falsetto range as they do this in their head voice. The head voice is similar to male falsetto but more connected to chest and less hooty. Physiologically it is slightly different, something I will elaborate on further when I have good sources for it. In men the head voice is harder to obtain than falsetto because men have a set of lower fundamental tones - the sound is harder to connect to a head voice. Falsetto in women is however possible, it is called whistle register. I hope this answers your incredibly old question ;)--I&#39;ll bring the food 00:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not actually sure that female falsetto is whistle register. There are men who can access whistle register, head register and falsetto and all 3 registers sound different when they use them. EDIT actually I found out today women can also develop falsetto register but IMO there is not much point because most women have head register, which is about as high pitched as falsetto and causes less damage to the vocal chords.

falsetto, developed? lost?
Some information relating to how a falsetto can be developed or lost would be quite valuable to me, as i'm an aspiring voice actor who can only produce the falsetto effect sometimes, other times finding it impossible.. which effectively cuts the man of a thousand voices down to 500. ^^'

Countertenors

 * The falsetto register is used by male countertenors to approximate the register in classical voice that previously employed castrati,

This is enormously misleading. Countertenors sang the alto (and sometimes soprano) parts of SATB music for centuries as a standard practice; castrati were quite rare. While of course countertenors CAN sing parts intended for castrati, that would be a minuscule part of their repertoire. --Wahoofive 18:32, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * also not all countertenors use falsetto. some men can develop their head voice/whistle register and sing high notes with the need for flasetto

so what is it?
hmm. i come from a linguistic point of view (although i have studied music theory a bit) & i find that this article tells me very little about how falsetto is produced. not anyone's fault - i suppose it will take a little digging to find this out. i assume that it will be discussed as some kind of phonation. anyway, take this as a request for expansion for anyone who knows about the articulatory details (at least until i start digging...). thank you – ishwar  (speak)  05:31, 2005 August 13 (UTC)

Useless list
The list of pop falsetto singers is out of control. It's almost all OR, and anyway most pop singers go back and forth from falsetto to full voice. This list could include thousands of singers, and I don't see much value in it. I propose eliminating the list and only including the sentence with Barry Gibb and Michael Jackson. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 15:26, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you could restrict the list to those who substantially use falsetto. That would rule out the Beatles but would include the Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, Lou Christie and the Four Seasons, all of whom are equally as qualified as the two you mention. Wahkeenah 15:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Geddy Lee, but not Robert Plant? Paul McCartney, but not Mick Jagger? I'd add Plant & Jagger, but the list already seems too long.

I added Klaus Nomi because he specialized in falsetto (and was considered freakish for doing so), which he studied under a voice teacher. I do agree this list should include only pop artists who sang primarily in that range, probably twelve names or less, and Jagger & McCartney don't belong here. Geddy Lee I can't hear, but my dog hates him. edgarde 05:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone please remove all those names. We could all just keep adding to it until it took up the whole page, but really all that's needed are maybe 3 or 4 main examples that EVERYONE on earth has heard of for reference. Like Michael Jackson, and the Beach Boys.

Thank you! I wish someone would do the same to the whistle register list, too. Lesanichelle 06:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Have`nt You Forgotten Someone ???
Bold text The list is incomplete, surely you haven`t forgotten probably the most famous name of all,

that of Demis Roussos. I remember him well. !!

Vernon.

NEEDS WORK
How do we add a tag that this article needs more work? The list isn't particularly useful, the heavy metal section is either redundant or pointless (or both), there's no science about how the falsetto is produced (as somebody above mentioned) and overall it just needs to conform to a higher standard of writing. Content, organization, and style. What do you think?
 * Agree. There isn't much scientific knowledge about how falsetto is produced, as far as I'm aware. There are some theories, but no consensus within the field. But the list is totally stupid, and for the most part unverifiable. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 22:01, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey, wait, you know what would be cool, though? What if we categorized the list so that for each singer we listed two or three SPECIFIC MOMENTS in SPECIFIC SONGS where the falsetto is easily audible.  Readers who want to hear examples of how falsettos sound could then hunt the examples down in their CD collections, local library, or iTunes store.  Organize the list with specific verifiable examples and then you might really have something there: a useful falsetto database.

Falsetto Database
I kind of miss the list of falsetto singers this article used to have. Yeah, the list itself kind of stunk, but the idea of listing singers who have PROMINENT, FAMOUS, NOTABLE falsettos is a pretty darn good idea. Like somebody suggested, you could also link to external legal downloads that can "show" readers what different falsettos can sound like. Breaky McWind 20:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * ok. but, having a long list makes the article less readable. if everyone wants to list their favorite singer, they can put on a separate page. peace – ishwar  (speak)  02:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The more, the merrier, I say. It's sort of a light-hearted singers' hall of shame. I was initially outraged to see that Jon Anderson featured in the list, particularly since his WP entry asserts that "He considers himself an alto tenor vocalist, capable of hitting very high notes without relying on falsetto while maintaining the softness that is consistently associated with his voice. Even during live performances, such as those recorded and included in the Yessongs album, Anderson never wavers into falsetto, as many other singers frequently do in live performances to conserve their vocal strength." But, what the heck. This is just one of those pages where the underlying discussion is more interesting than the page itself. Far Canal 06:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Going back to the "too many falsetto singers" agument - once again people are just adding their favorite singers when they might just dabble in the range of falsetto. Like Breaky McWind said, "PROMINENT, FAMOUS, NOTABLE falsettos" should be listed. Bruce Dickinson, while a talented singer, has a vocal range. ASBands 18:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The example sound file
What kind of file is the given Falsetto.OGG example file? The file extension would indicate it’s Ogg-Vorbis, but neither ogg123 nor Mplayer can play it. File identifies as Sun/NeXT audio data: 8-bit linear PCM [REF-PCM], mono, 22050 Hz… SoX converts it successfully into WAV, but I’m not sure whether I can identify the result as human voice. --Bisqwit 22:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

-- It is indeed 8-bit linear PCM at 22050 Hz. As well as not being .ogg, it's not the sound of a human voice. You know the sound of the General Lee's horn in the Dukes of Hazard? It's that sound. Removing it. Thparkth 03:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Axl Rose
Unless there is some regional variation in the definition of falsetto technique, Axl Rose certainly does not "demonstrate frequent use of falsetto", and neither does Bruce Dickinson, Robert Plant, David Coverdale, or Ronnie James Dio. --Mr. Brownstone 01:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see any of the singers listed as using true falsetto, in the classical sense at least. Plus, popular examples would be slightly more appropriate. Perhaps a good example using recent, popular music is that David Pouter, specifically in his single "Bad Day." --Mellesime 19:38, 02 JUL 2006 (UTC)


 * There can often be variation in what falsetto is. It does not have to suit the classical definition to be in this article--I&#39;ll bring the food 23:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference between head voice and falsetto?
I can't seem to find a straight answer anywhere on the internet, and it might be a good idea to put it into the article for those like me who are confused about the difference. --Psycho Hippo 22:17 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That's because only very few know what it is. I have a sample of head voice Vs. Falsetto from my CD collection by Brett Manning, which I will upload at some point.--I&#39;ll bring the food 00:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The main difference is the way the vocal folds close up. I think in one method, they are not fully closed, the other the front of the folds are full closed except a small gap is left at the back of the folds. It was explained on another wbesite, and it had pictures of the vocal folds taken with a stroboscope. From what I understand, it is impossible to mix falsetto with the other registers (unless you count vocal fry as a register) but it is possible to mix head register with chest register. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.200.164.177 (talk) 19:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Not quite true. You can mix falsetto with your head voice, if you do it low enough. Falsettist countertenors (while going up through their range) usually transition really early on into head voice, then modify their head voice to sound more like falsetto, and then let the falsetto mechanism take over. But I think the main point is that the male falsetto and chest voice will not blend readily, and usually create the "crack" we're all familiar with.

(Before you get on to me for not talking about the article, remember anything I said could be sourced and put into the article.) -- trlkly 04:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

"Nominees for removal" removed
Removed my contribution from this discussion page cos it wasn't working. Meanwhile, some sensible person deleted the (long) list of pop/rock singers and replaced it with useful data.

Problems identified:
 * Names deleted will be added again.
 * A knowledgeable person editing the list will probably not have heard all the singers listed, so it is possible no single editor can fix it authoritatively.

Grounds for removal were: edgarde 23:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) only occasional falsetto
 * 2) singing high without using falsetto
 * 3) too obscure to be a useful example
 * 4) redundant (too many heavy metal singers)

Bruce and Dio
One can hear a lot of falsetto by Bruce Dickinson in The Number Of The Beast album, specially in Gangland. His screams in his early years with Iron Maiden were falsetto. He tended to abandon this technique in favor of head voice or lower notes, even in live versions of older songs.

Dio used falsetto for effect, at least, in Don´t Talk To Strangers (live, but not sure about the studio version, need to listen), Children Of The Sea, in which he modulates to fuller driven sound, and also Sign Of The Southern Cross. Maybe Wild One´s highest note, too. -- Cris Spiegel 13:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That is informative. I will take a look at that, but I can't add it unless you have a citation in a reliable source that he sang in falsetto on gangland, and later did it in head voice live.--I&#39;ll bring the food 00:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Need better explenation and a sound probably
This article didn't help much, it apears it's not very hard to say wether someone sings falsetto or not ( at least I got that impression ) but still whats a difference between in exemple a singer singing a C6 in falsseto and singer who's singing it normally, few sounds samples that demonstrated something like that would be great ( Even better would be a mellody sang with and without falsetto ) --Defufna 20:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know many male singers who can hit a C6 in chest ;). It would be rare even among tenors. Perhaps a D4? I could upload that. --I&#39;ll bring the food 00:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok I admit I went to far, but D4 would do wonderfully also :) or even a mellody singed with and without falsetto--Defufna 23:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have uploaded a falsetto and head voice sample as per your request. It doesn't have chest though.--I&#39;ll bring the food 22:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Castrato?
Shouldn't there be a link to this subject, especially referencing when men used to sing falsetto before women sang in choirs. The creation of the casrato voice was apparently intended to bridge this gap.

(Of course, simply letting women sing in choirs would have saved everyone a great deal of heartache.)

Nuttyskin 04:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure it's the heart that's the most painful area after castration. Flapdragon 19:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * These two subjects are pretty much unrelated. Male altos sing in falsetto, a technique in use for a thousand years, and still available to any grown man today who doesn't have a psychological block about it (Anglican church choirs still use it regularly, as well as many early music specialists). Castrato was a short vogue in the Italian Baroque, used to keep certain boy sopranos' voices from changing. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 17:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Castrati are a chest voice phenomena. Alto's are something I need to get to, I haven't got to editing those articles (contralto/alto) yet.--I&#39;ll bring the food 00:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of falsetto page
I have nominated this page for deletion for the following reasons: This article contains material that is covered in other wikipedia articles, most notably falsetto register. Furthermore, this article fails to incoporate itself with the larger topic of vocal registration and is highly biased towards a vocal pedagological perspective that fails to incorporate the perspective of speech pathologists. Furthermore, the understanding of certain terms like head voice, chest voice, and middle voice on this page are controvercial among vocal pedagogists which this article fails to mention. See vocal registration page for details. Nrswanson (talk) 03:30, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Valid complaints, wrong tactic. The thing to do is incorporate the desired material into this page and keep it, not delete it. Binksternet (talk) 14:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Merger with falsetto register page
I agree these two articles should be merged but with this page moving to the other page. Falsetto register as a title is more in keeping with the vocal registration page and the other voice registration pages: vocal fry register, modal register, and whistle register.Nrswanson (talk) 18:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Both articles cover the same subject, and "Falsetto" is a more likely search string than "Falsetto register". Falsetto register should be redirected here, per common sense and per Articles for deletion/Falsetto. / edg ☺ ☭ 19:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But falsetto register is better for being congruent with the overall wikipedia articles on vocal registration. Furthermore, falsetto register is a technical term used in speech pathology as well as in vocal music. We can simply have all falsetto searches redirected to falsetto register. Also that discussion on deletion lasted less than a day so I doubt you are getting a wide array of opinions. And personally I find not choosing falsetto register as being biased towards vocal music and negligent towards speech pathology. This page is a part of wikiproject phonetics as well as wikiproject opera and both projects should be respected. I think falsetto register is a better term for encompassing both views and presenting each viewpoint most effectively. Furthermore, as a vocal pedagogist and someone who is highly knowledgable in this field I can tell you that this is the correct terminology used by professionals and you will find falsetto listed under vocal registration in all vocal pedagogical literature. Your opinion scares me quite frankly becuase it simply points out a glaring weakness in wikipedia which is a tendancy to ignore professional language which ultimately leads to misleading or outright incorrect information. When reading about falsetto it is important to understand falsetto as a vocal register and how this particular register relates to the other vocal registers. Nrswanson (talk) 21:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree per nrswanson. I think the title falsetto register fits better with the other vocal register articles.Voicequeen (talk) 22:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think both articles have their merits and the material of both should be preserved. I think Edgarde is right that people are more likely to search for falsetto but I also think nrswanson is right that the title falsetto register is better in keeping with the vocal registration page especially sense it makes more sense for speech pathology. I say move this page to falsetto register.Ringnpassagio (talk) 06:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have merged the information on both pages to the falsetto register page. Let me know if you think this is acceptable before I make any changes here.Ringnpassagio (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If the changes you are proposing to make here are yet another re-direct to Falsetto register, no I don't think they are acceptable. See my comment below. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 08:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion to resolve this mess
Preliminary Note: ''I have never edited this article or Falsetto register, although I am a member of the Wikipedia Opera Project which has an interest in articles on voice and singing. This issue was brought to our attention on the project talk page. Note also that in the deletion discussion for Falsetto, I voted to keep this article as I considered the call for deletion inappropriate.''

I strongly agree with Binksternet above. The complaints about this article are valid, but the tactics used to remedy them were, and continue to be, wrong. Those tactics have led to the disruption of several related articles and resulted in edit-warring, which has now escalated into a formal accusation of sockpuppetry, All of this could have been avoided if the proper procedures had been followed in the first place.

Wikipedia recommends being bold. But the way to be bold is to boldly revise this original article and then seek consensus to retitle it, if necessary. It is not to write a parallel article and then precipitously ask for deletion of this one (which has had a lot of work put into it by a lot of editors since it was started in 2003). Deletion would have completely destroyed the edit history and much valuable content, which at the time deletion was requested, had not been incorporated into Falsetto register.

For now I strongly recommend that the improved article be worked on here, incorporating the material from Falsetto register and changing or removing any material in this article which is inaccurate or poorly referenced - no more of this constant edit-warring of re-directs between the two articles, which the Opera Project deplores. I personally agree that ultimately this article should be retitled to bring it in line with the other articles on voice registers. There are very good arguments for this. The fact that most people will type "Falsetto" into the search box and hit "Go" is probably true, but that is a non-problem which can easily be solved via a redirect if and only if there is a consensus here for a redirect once this article is thoroughly revised and reasonably stable. But that discussion is premature. First get this article into shape here and then start discussing that issue. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 08:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Please watch Falsetto register
Can someone please watch Falsetto register and revert when someone changes it? It's supposed to be just a redirect to Falsetto (unless it's decided to rename this article to "Falsetto register", obviously), but User:Nrswanson/User:Ringnpassagio/User:Voicequeen (probably sockpuppets) keep creating a parallel article under that lemma. I'm hitting 3RR, and since I'm not actively involved with the Falsetto article anyways, I'll let someone else take care of this. -- Ddxc (talk) 03:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it just be easier to have that space fully protected? NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 09:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC) Never mind, Edgarde already filed a request at WP:RFPP. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 09:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think User:Nrswanson/User:Ringnpassagio/User:Voicequeen are all the same person, nor that they are acting in bad faith. However, they are friends whom User:Nrswanson, specifically recruited into the 'fray'. That was extremely ill-advised. He and they should have read this policy first, as well as the other articles for newcomers before plunging into editing, and especially into editing contentious articles. Ringnpassagio and Voicequeen's expertise is very welcome, but at the very least, they should have made the circumstances of their participation clear on the talk pages of this article. Had they done so, much of this unpleasantness could have been avoided. Hopefully, the edit-warring will stop now and everyone will edit with more reflection in the future. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 09:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Brian Wilson & Frankie Valli
How in the world can you have an article about falsetto singers, mentioning modern examples, without including these 2? Robert Plant is mentioned, and he has never sounded like a falsetto singer to me in any way. The only reason I have not deleted Plant, and added Wilson & Valli is because I suspect there has been debate about this in the past. -- Elaich   talk 20:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)