Talk:Falun Gong/Archive10b

'''This is an archived discussion page. DO NOT EDIT THIS PAGE. Please go to the main talk page and join the discussion there.'''

Archived discussion:
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive9, 26 May 2006 to 2 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive10a, 2 June 2006 to 4 June 2006

I reinsert my edits on origins
Yesterday I made edits "01:10, 4 June 2006 Fnhddzs (→Origins - add info. for the biography) ". But they were deleted without reasonable bases.

I cannot find the original of biography now. But according to my memory, your edits on that biography have inaccuracy. I also looked up Penny's paper. I could not even find "numerous masters" there. I could not find things like "very embodiment of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance" either even in Penny's paper. It is not in print any more. I don't think it is appropriate to put it here. Fnhddzs 17:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC) I remember it is 1 or 2 page biography in the last page of Zhuanfa lun (old version). Fnhddzs 17:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC) How could you guys say it is 17 pages? Fnhddzs 17:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Below is what I copied from Penny's paper (on China quarterly) on his notes of finding that biography. " http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/�dongxue/biography.html, downloaded on 9 March 2001. The “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” is credited with the translation and no author is given. By 1 May 2001 it had disappeared from this site and I have been unable to locate another website on which it appears. All citations come from this text. Another translation is available in Chinese Law and Government, Vol. 32, No. 6, pp. 14–23. This translation is, in many ways, more readable than the falun gong version but as it does not have the imprimatur of the movement, the official version is preferred. '''The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) pp. 333–345 under the title “Zhongguo falun gong chuangshiren, falun gong yanjiuhui huizhang Li Hongzhi xiansheng xiaozhuan” but has not been published in that book since 1996.''' An English language internet version of Zhuan falun, translated by the “Translation Group of Falun Xiulian Dafa” and dated 1997 has the biography listed in its table of contents but the relevant link leads to the message, “The page cannot be found” (http://www.nb.net/�boying/ZFL/en_zfl.htm and http://www.nb.net/ �boying/ZFL/Biograf.htm)."Fnhddzs 17:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This bio was seventeen pages long used to introduce the Master as a saint to the public from 1995 to 1999. Before 1995 a shorter version was used. Why are you practitioenrs trying so hard to hide information about Li?--Samuel Luo 17:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the biography you referred to was the one in Zhuan Falun (please see Petty's paper). If you like to refer to other biographys, please say clearly. Why you want to hide Li's quotes on Canada lecture?Fnhddzs 17:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't make major edits to the intro
We don't have agreement on what the intro should be yet. I've just reverted a bunch of edits that weren't discussed here first. CovenantD 17:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Why people remove stuff without my agreement either? If the article owned by "we", who are "we"? Fnhddzs 17:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. let's discuss the following edits of mine. People say it changed the meaning of the first paragraph. So what is the meaning of the first paragraphy supposed to be?

In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li: "I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered: No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation.

Fnhddzs 17:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, if we are going to revert intro to an earlier version it is this long standing one 05:20, 4 June 2006. Changes have been made since this time without consensus. --Samuel Luo 17:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The first two paragraphs, after my revert, are the same as when the page was last unfrozen, with one sentence added after nobody objected on the talk page here. The third paragraph of the intro is under discussion here. CovenantD 17:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by fairness? To be fair, the biography should not be put here at all. That will make the article clean and neat. Fnhddzs 17:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel just reverted back to the complete intro that was in place when the page was unfrozen. I accept this revert as it does remove any edits that may still be in contention. CovenantD 18:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the biography is in dispute. We don't like it be there alone without other info. like Mr. Li's answer. Fnhddzs 18:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph on numbers (3rd intro para)
Samuel and I have engaged in numerous reverts over this paragraph. I'm glad that the NY Times content has been accepted, but there is still more that is in dispute. Here are the two versions.

Mine:


 * There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles, both published on April 27, 1999, before the crackdown began. According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. [2][3] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [4] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[5]

and Samuel's:


 * The Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [2] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[3] A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles in April 1999 [4][5] The exact number of practitioners is not known.

Differences:
 * Mine mentions why the numbers are of dispute and states it first. The NY Times' statements are before the others and, rather than giving a specific date, it states that they were published before the crackdown. It mentions that the Chinese government's statement was given after the crackdown. Mine also mentions the source of the NY Times figure.

Can we come to a consensus on which version is preferable? Mcconn 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The first version, but after substituting actual date for references to the crackdown and suppression. That puts the presentation of the numbers in chronological order and doesn't allow for bias in any way. CovenantD 18:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I made a change in bold based on what you said. What do you think? Also, by saying "mine" I'm referring to the version I prefer. I'm not saying I wrote it. Mcconn 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, I need to look at the references. I just realized that I haven't actually confirmed the information being presented, so caught up in style and checking reliability of sources. I also want to confirm the dates that are used. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This sentence is a POV "There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong." Taking out this unimportant sentence also shortens the article "According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government."   --Samuel Luo 18:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's why I originally had a tag on it. :-) The first sentence of that paragraph needs to say what the figures are talking about. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the People's Daily number and date, made the change above. CovenantD 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What's POV about it? I think it's entirely relevant to state why we can quote exact figures. The reason we can't is because there are no members or formal organization to keep track of them. I don't think we need to cite something that doesn't exist unless there are others who say that it does exist. This statement is pretty undisputed. Mcconn 18:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the two NYT articles, corrected the date to the 27 of August, 1999. Confirmed the ClearWisdom numbers.

Mcconn, here's what I suggest. We move the second NYT citation to support the "no organization" assertion, changing the wording give proper attribution. Thus the first sentence becomes, "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time, says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, according to the New York Times." The exact number of practitioners is not known." CovenantD 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Summary Of the three intro paragraphs, this is the one that's had the most discussion. I think we're close to an agreement. So far we seem to be in agreement on including all three sets of numbers and a statement that the true number in not known. Does everybody agree to that? I think a straw poll might be in order. CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.


 * Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

origin
The folowing statements talk about the bio itself rather than Li and the Falun Gong. It serves no purpose here. Can I take it out?

In Li Hongzhi’s Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, a question was asked to Mr. Li: "I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master’s biography. Is this appropriate?" and he answered:

No. I don’t want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan falun. Now I had asked them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consummation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Luo (talk • contribs)


 * It addresses the issue of the legitimacy of the bio. IF the legitimacy of the bio is in dispute then that should be noted somewhere and this becomes relevant. IF the legitimacy of the bio is not in doubt then there's no need for it. That's my take on it anyway. CovenantD 19:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, you can't take it out. Your reasoning demonstrates a POV which, I assume, is meant to support Li's decision to pull his authorized biography from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun. If this were a Falun Gong web page, it would be understandable that you wouldn't want to report the content of this biography. However, this is an on-line encyclopedia, and as such relevant information which is verifiable...and this early biography is certainly verifiable...needs to be reported.  Frankly, how can you even suggest that an early authorized biography of the founder of Falun Gong isn't relevant to a report on its origins? --Tomananda 19:51, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tomananda, please assume good faith. CovenantD 20:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I do. I assume good faith, but also POV for all of us.  The intent in my post above was to point out that even though we all have our POV's, the Wikipedia standard is not to allow the suppression of information in edits merely because of one editor's POV.--Tomananda 20:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ooops, I see my post was a total non-sequitor, since I am referring to the biography itself (as reported in the second paragraph) and not the related Li quote. My post was meant to appear above.  Sorry about that.  --Tomananda 21:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tomananda did a good job in tracking down Li's bio. Since the legitimacy of the bio is no longer in question, I am deleting those statements in question here.  It makes the paper read better. --Samuel Luo 01:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I recommend that we have an independent section on Origins
Having read the Penny article and the authorized biography, I feel there is a wealth of material here that warrants its own section. The origins section could include highlights of Penny's analysis of the edit changes done between the first version of the biography and the shortened Zhuan Falun version. I believe all of this provides an insight into the origins of Falun Gong which won't be available any other way. I am here copying some excerpts from the Zhuan Falun (authorized) version so people who haven't been able to download their own copy can get an idea of the material:

A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi Founder of Falun Xiulian Dafa, President of the Research Society of Falun Buddha Science (List of teachers) (break). (break) (2) (break) (break) (break)
 * At the age of four, Mr. Li received personal instructions from Law Master Quan Jue, the 10th heir to the Great Law of the Buddha School which has been handed down to only one disciple each time, and began his cultivation of the supreme qualities "Zhen Shan Ren" ( Truth Compassion Forbearance).
 * His first master left him when he was twelve. On the point of leaving, the master said to him, "A new master will come to teach you." The second master mainly taught him Taoist Gongfu. He began to practise boxing,sword-and-spear play and did the integrated cultivation of both external and internal exercise. The master would take him to an isolated place and keep him company when he was practising. When doing the riding stance, he would keep the posture for hours. He practised so hard that he often dripped with sweat.
 * Soon his second master, for whom he had a deep affection, was also to leave him. On the eve of departure, the master said to him, I'm called Eight-Pole-Immortal. I'm wandering about without any destination. After I am gone, the only thing you should keep in mind is: Practise diligently
 * Mr. Li got a job in 1972. That year, a third master - a master of the Great Way School with the Taoist alias of True Taoist came from the Changbai Mountains. Unlike his two former masters, this master wore no Taoist's robe, but he was dressed like an ordinary man. He never said where he lived. This master mainly taught inner cultivation.
 * The master of the Great Way School was gone in 1974. Later, came a female master of the Buddha School,who chiefly taught Buddha School's cultivation principles and exercise to him.
 * Over a period of about a dozen of years, he received instructions successively from more than twenty masters from both the Buddha School and the Tao School, with a different master teaching him at each different level of cultivation.

(Supernatural Powers) (break) (3) (break) (break)
 * Now, Mr. Li's energy potency has reached an extremely high level. Some of his supernatural powers are difficult for ordinary people to imagine or understand.
 * Mr. Li's energy potency reached an extremely high level. Above all,he has been able to see the truth of the universe, many more beautiful things which have existed there for a long time, as well as the origin, development and future of mankind.
 * With the growth of his energy potency, he came to understand mankind and human life better and better.

(Creation of a great law) (break) (break) (break) (4) (break) (break)
 * He decided to create a great Law suitable for ordinary people to cultivate based on the great Law which had been imparted only to himself and which he had been cultivating alone for so many years as a means of achieving this goal.
 * From 1984, Mr. Li started making a serious investigation into different qigong activities at home and abroad and attended a number of qigong impartment classes. He analysed the characteristics of modern people, as the Great Law, which would find its cultivators among ordinary people, should adapt itself to their way of life.
 * Everybody looks forward to a happy life, but they meet with every kind of misfortune because they have lost their true selves. Therefore, Mr. Li was determined to create a great Law- Falun Buddha Law suitable for the cultivation of contemporary people (because the Great Law of Falun Cultivating the Buddhas Mr.Li had cultivated in the past was a grand-scale cultivation way and could not be popularized on a large scale). Beginning from 1984, Mr. Li devoted his whole body and mind to the adaptation work of Falun Buddha Law. The Law Wheels of the Buddha School, the Yin and Yang of the Tao School, and everything in the ten Directions, all find their reflections in Falun Buddha Law without exception.
 * The design of Falun Dafa was basically finalized in 1989 . But Mr. Li was not anxious to make it public at once..
 * Besides, Mr. Li also plants Falun into other parts of the students' bodies to cure their diseases or help them practise. These Falun never stop rotating. They adjust the practitioners' bodies automatically. In order to help the students grasp the essentials of the exercise, he also plants Qiji ( the energy mechanism) around the students' bodies. Like Falun, it circulates incessantly, guiding the students to the correct movements and enabling the energy in their channels to circulate along the Heavenly Circuit.
 * Being enlightened, Mr. Li has a deep insight into the mysteries of the cosmos, which enables him to dispel the miasma in which the present-day world of qigong is shrouded.

Penny treats these biographies with great respect as examples of the form of religious biographies found in the Buddhist and Daosist tradition of China. The actual text is presented as a poem, broken up into five different chapters. If there is consensus, I am willing to work on a summary of Penny's findings in order to create an article on Origins which I think would be very interesting for readers of Wikipedia. --Tomananda 23:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: When accessing this document on the Way Back archive machine, I found that there are two ways to get to it. You should get to a screen which shows horizontal years and under two of the years there are clickable months and dates for pages that were archived at that time. If you get to that screen, you need to click on one of the specific dates under one of the months (sorry, I didn't make a note as to which date, but I think it was January). However, I have also found that sometimes you wind up with a verticle listing of 865 pages, and many of those pages don't open. So if you're having trouble with this, the alternative URL that should work directly is: --Tomananda 03:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm just here to artibtrate and increase the quality of these articles, so I'd rather hear what others think. CovenantD 03:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

'''The question is who wrote it?? and what is it based on? This was written by a journalist.. of what relevance is that? '''

Please show all the sources (website links etc) for all these materials. /Omido 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Who wrote the authorized biography of Li Hongzhi? Why not ask Li?  The point is that it appeared in copies of Zhuan Falun for several years and therefore counts as an authorized biography. The more pertinent question to ask is this: Why did Li decide to remove the biography  from later editions of the Zhuan Falun?  Why was it ok to publish that biography in the early years and then all of a sudden it became not ok? Li said in his answer he wanted people to focus on his Dafa rather than the details of his life.  That's fine, but then why did he ever allow the biography to appear in one of his official publications?


 * As to web pages, I have already given the link to the authorized biography which is an archived copy of a page on a Falun Gong website. It's the authorized version of the biography we are discussing now, so I don't see any point in tracking down sources for the other biography at this point.--Tomananda 18:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed abusive messages
I have removed some abusive messages on this talk page from Archaos2. See here and here.-- MrFi s  h Go Fish 12:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also here.-- MrFi s  h Go Fish 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And from a bunch of IP addresses too. I've semi-protected this talk page. If the article page and/or subpages and/or talk pages of subpages and/or user pages gets vandalised repeatedly, get someone to semi-protect those as well. (I can't after 9 AM PST, that is UTC -800.) -- Миборовский U 15:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

New York times figure delted again, article says falun gong banned for "illegal" activities.... the intro needs to be made factual.. <   Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law") is also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Central to Falun Gong are the teachings of "Truthfulness, Compassion and Forbearance" and five sets of meditation exercises (four standing, and one sitting meditation).) The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.

On July 20, 1999 the People's republic of China began a Nation-wide Supression of Falun Gong. This has been considered a major Human-rights violation world-over.

There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China. After the supression began, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles before the crackdown began.[29][30] According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government.

Please point out anything non-factual or irrelevant to the introduction

3rd paragraph of intro
Samuel and I have engaged in numerous reverts over this paragraph. I'm glad that the NY Times content has been accepted, but there is still more that is in dispute. Here are the two versions.

Mine:


 * There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles, both published on April 27, 1999, before the crackdown began. According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. [2][3] On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [4] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[5]

and Samuel's:


 * The Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. [2] Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China.[3] A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles in April 1999 [4][5] The exact number of practitioners is not known.

Differences:
 * Mine mentions why the numbers are of dispute and states it first. The NY Times' statements are before the others and, rather than giving a specific date, it states that they were published before the crackdown. It mentions that the Chinese government's statement was given after the crackdown. Mine also mentions the source of the NY Times figure.

Can we come to a consensus on which version is preferable? Mcconn 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The first version, but after substituting actual date for references to the crackdown and suppression. That puts the presentation of the numbers in chronological order and doesn't allow for bias in any way. CovenantD 18:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I made a change in bold based on what you said. What do you think? Also, by saying "mine" I'm referring to the version I prefer. I'm not saying I wrote it. Mcconn 18:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, I need to look at the references. I just realized that I haven't actually confirmed the information being presented, so caught up in style and checking reliability of sources. I also want to confirm the dates that are used. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This sentence is a POV "There being no membership or formal organization in Falun Gong." Taking out this unimportant sentence also shortens the article "According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government."   --Samuel Luo 18:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's why I originally had a tag on it. :-) The first sentence of that paragraph needs to say what the figures are talking about. CovenantD 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the People's Daily number and date, made the change above. CovenantD 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There are several sources that can serve as citations for the fact that there is no concept of membership in Falun Dafa. Just like it wuold be hard to find the number of Tai Chi practitioners.. it is hard to find the number of Falun Dafa practitioners.

Dilip rajeev 20:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What's POV about it? I think it's entirely relevant to state why we can quote exact figures. The reason we can't is because there are no members or formal organization to keep track of them. I don't think we need to cite something that doesn't exist unless there are others who say that it does exist. This statement is pretty undisputed. Mcconn 18:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed the two NYT articles, corrected the date to the 27 of August, 1999. Confirmed the ClearWisdom numbers.

Mcconn, here's what I suggest. We move the second NYT citation to support the "no organization" assertion, changing the wording give proper attribution. Thus the first sentence becomes, "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time, says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, according to the New York Times." The exact number of practitioners is not known." CovenantD 18:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

my suggestion
There being no concept of organization of membership in Falun Gong, the exact number of practitioners is not known. Falun Gong websites state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide including over 70 million in China. After the supression began, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million. A figure of 70 million was quoted in two NY Times articles before the crackdown began.[29][30] According to the articles, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. Dilip rajeev 19:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

the following version has no POV: In July, 1999, the number of Falun Gong practitioners in China was estimated by the government at 2.1 million .[1] The number of practitioners claimed by Falun Gong is much larger, with 100 million followers worldwide including over 70 million in China.[2]--Samuel Luo 19:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip, any version that uses the words suppression and crackdown is not acceptable. See the discussion about New York Times numbers and other 3rd paragraph discussions for the reasons why using dates is NPOV.

Samuel, I know this is the version that is in place. It's already been discussed how to improve it. Let's not ignore all of that work. CovenantD 19:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Summary Of the three intro paragraphs, this is the one that's had the most discussion. I think we're close to an agreement. So far we seem to be in agreement on including all three sets of numbers and a statement that the true number in not known. Does everybody agree to that? I think a straw poll might be in order. CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll
There should be a statement that the true number of practitioners is not known. All three sets of numbers should be presented, in chronological order.


 * Support CovenantD 18:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * SupportDilip rajeev 20:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Fnhddzs 20:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Mcconn 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support --Fire Star 火星 01:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Including three figures is fine with me, why Don't you show the revised third paragraph here? --Samuel Luo 21:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I want to make sure we all agree on what should be included before we agree on the wording. I'm just waiting on a few more people... CovenantD 22:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I support the straw poll proposal as well. --Tomananda 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that we've had a chance to hear from people, here's what I suggest we use for the third paragraph. I've confirmed that all of the references are accurate. CovenantD 03:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Covenant's suggestion

 * The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, in a New York Times article." A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in another NY Times article published on the same day, April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million in the People's Daily. A Falun Gong website state a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.


 * Haven't engaged much in the number discussion/debate, but this version seems fine to me. --Yenchin 05:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to this POV statement "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong." This paragraph should just provided the fact/figures presented by all parties. Also the Chinese government provided its estiate in July, 1999 on a Chinese Xinhua article. This article is not cited only because it is in Chinese and not availble on line. --Samuel Luo 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually published offline sources are considered more authoritative than online ones. -- Миборовский U 06:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but the problem is pro-FG editors demand material in English and I am sure they will fight over anything that they can not get their hands on. They even deleted Li's bio for that reason. --Samuel Luo 06:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * ConventD the FG figure is published on its "official website" this point has to be included.   --Samuel Luo 06:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no "official website" for Falun Dafa. Mcconn 18:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I also strongly object to including that quote from a Falun Gong spokesperson. All that needs to be said is that no formal membership records are kept. Certainly e-mail lists are maintained and even though Falun Gong denies it is "organized"...how do you think they manage to get so many practitioners from so many different cities to show up to their big protest events? When President Hu was in Seattle, Washington recently, the Falun Gong organized hundreds of people coming from different cities, many taking chartered buses to get to that out-of-state destination. According to a relative of a practitioner who lives in Seattle, there are only a handful of practitioners who actually live in the Seatle area!

This kind of organizing is not possible without some kind of lists, whether they be called "member" lists or not. The same was true back when Falun Gong practioners were showing up in the thousands to protest in China. There is a definite leadership hierarchy among the Falun Gong volunteers. In a recent speech...I believe it was in San Francisco...Li actually talked about the practitioners who are "in charge" for that area. The idea that there is no "organization" of the Falun Gong is a myth. There is no formal legal organization, but there certainly is organized communication, as well as levels of volunteer responsibilty. I can provide the name of one of the Bay area organizers for the Falun Gong. Her name was recently cited by one of the San Francisco supervisors as a top local leader.

Also, once a practitioner has internalized Li's teachings, there is strong pyschological pressure for that person to remain in the group. Although no one is physcially constrained, Li has his disciples believing that if they do stop practicing Falun Gong some day, they will forfeit their one and only chance for salvation. Li warns them that if they stop cultivating, they will no longer be protected by him (or his Fashen) and bad things will happen, such as the return of illnesses or other bad things caused by demons or "the old forces." Of course practitioners will deny all of this, but there most definitely is a different POV than the one expressed by Yi Rong above. --Tomananda 07:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this edit proposed by CovenantD is fine with me. I don't see POV since it already cite Yi Rong from a quality source. Of course, Yi Rong's statement is his/her POV. But it is totally fine since we just report this. Right? Fnhddzs 07:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No it is not ok to have a one-sided quote like that appear in the introduction. If we have that kind of POV appear as part of a general introduction, we will need to add a counter statement or quote. But then we will dilute the whole paragraph on material that is not needed in an introduction. --Tomananda 07:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

As to the "leadership", you can look up here. You can see each area has a volunteer assistant who could be contacted especially for new comers asking help. As far as I know, the form is very loose and situations are very different geographically. In my area, the volunteer assistant has changed many due to relocation. Actually I think everybody is a leader and everybody has responsibility. "Your enlightened, original nature will automatically know what to do." said by Master Li.Fnhddzs 07:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC) I understand in American culture, people expect somebody would walk out to speak. So sometimes there do exist such spokesmen, spokeswomen for Falun Gong. But I don't think that makes up membership. If you ask how many students enrolled in a University, there must be one. If you ask a list on who are practitioners, there is NO such a list. That's why people say no concepts of membership. Fnhddzs 07:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That is what practitioners say/believe, however it is a POV and therefore should not be included in the intro. Should there be a section call Falun Gong organization? --Samuel Luo 08:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, most of the things you just wrote, are all your own opinions which does not mean anything at all. "This kind of organizing is not possible without some kind of lists.." and these kind of things are all your own opinions, how do you know it is not possible? Also, you seem to be a person who have really missunderstood the Falun Gong teachings, so your own opinions regarding the teachings can't be included as well. /Omido 10:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Lou, you say that it is POV when FLG practitioners say there is no organization. Then I say, please show me evidence that it has a organization. If you can't, then everything else is POV. /Omido 11:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely no such thing as membership or organization. Falun Gong is a cultivation practice.. and many practice it.. just like many practice yoga. Volunteers are just volunteers helping others learn the system. Dilip rajeev 13:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've looked at the comments above and here's my replies and a revised suggestion. Yenchin - You're a party to this so your viewpoint is welcome. Samuel & Fnhddz - While the statement from Yi Rong is POV, the fact that it appear in the NYT means it could be used. I am, however, taking it out as non-essential. I've also altered the sentence about the People's Daily number so it doesn't imply that this is the first time the Chinese gov't has used the 2.1 million number. Tomananda - same thing. The quote is out, substituting your wording "no formal membership records are kept." As far as your theories about organizing protests, well, I've got some experience in organizing large events. Often all that is needed is an announcement that something is happening and people will find their own way. That doesn't require a list of any kind, just a means of distributing the info, such as a website. Omido - Please be nice and don't say that Tomananda's opinions don't mean anything. They can't be used in the article, but they have meaning.

Im sorry, that was what I meant, that they can't be used in the article, nothing else. /Omido 18:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

All the rest of the comments seem to be a debate about what constitutes membership, a topic for another section (not the intro).

Revised suggestion
So here's the revised suggestion. If everybody agrees to this one, we can put it in place today. Woo hoo!!! CovenantD 14:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. ; no formal membership records are kept. "There are no conditions for membership, and people can come or go at any time," says Yi Rong, an associate of Li based in New York, in a New York Times article." A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a nother NY Times article published on the same day, April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. On Thursday, August 24, 2000, the Chinese government presented a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily. A Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.

Agree. But I feel "no formal membership records are kept" could be improved as there is absolutely no concept of membership... I learned the exercises using the website and I am a practitioner because I do the exercises and study the books -as simple as that. Omid heard about Falun Dafa from a webpage and taught himself the system using the videos and books on the FalunDafa.org website.. there is no concept of membership. It would be like saying "a Tai Chi member".. Overall, I agree to the paragraph. And I hope the new version is put up ASAP. Dilip rajeev 17:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Support. As for the issues raised, there's always more space to add/edit/discuss. --Yenchin 18:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this version can go up, but I also agree with Dilip. Why not simply say "there is no membership in Falun Gong"? To say "no formal membership records are kept" might suggest that there is some kind of loose membership, which isn't true. There's simply no membership at all. Hey, I used to skateboard a lot with my friends. We all liked skateboarding so we would often hang out and do it together (it's often more fun that way). Sometimes we even organized a big group of us to go to a skatepark downtown for the day. I guess that made me a skatboarder member? Mcconn 18:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what is membership? AAA membership, IEEE membership, SIAM membership, whether free or not free, you must have registered it. But Falun Gong does not have this registration progress. Whether you are a practitioner is only decided by your heart and with no conditions. We do have volunteers to contact to help. But a website is also enough to teach yourself. So please delete "formal". Fnhddzs 19:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there are volunteer lists, email lists, and so on, it could be argued that their are informal membership lists. I think it works best the way it is. CovenantD 19:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Infact there are no email lists or anything of that sort. If you are willing to volunteer to help others learn the exercises, you can more people know by putting your name up on some website. Any practitioner can be a volunteer if they are willing to help.. you dont need yuor name to be on any website..And there are absolutely no email lists. Websites like FoFG have email lists for news-update... and not everybody sbuscribing to the FoFG newsletter is a Falun Gong practitioner.

Dilip rajeev 04:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How about LAN party? People play games together? I do see they have online maps with contact person/email indicating where they can find a party. So you think that is a kind of membership? Fnhddzs 21:44, 6 June 2006 (UTC) The fact is, there is a way somehow people find how to practice Falun Gong, but nobody keeps track on who come and go. Even practicing in a park together, people don't even ask each other's names (maybe only spies are interested in getting a list of practitioner names). In my understanding, Falun Gong does not have any form of membership according to the definition of this term. If we redefine the word, or use another word, we could describe such a kind of form of "no form":) But I would say NO on implying an informal membership. Fnhddzs 22:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Also please keep in mind that we are living in an Internet times. We are easier to communicate than before. But communications do not imply a membership. Fnhddzs 22:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm just here to facilitate this process. I'll change it if nobody objects. CovenantD 00:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * this statement should be taken out "no formal membership records are kept." I don't think anyone can make this statement here since none of us represents the Falun Gong.  Also as Samuel has pointed out the Chinese government's figure was provided on July 22, 1999 when the ban of the group was announced.  The date has to be changed.--Yueyuen 01:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think all numbers here are POV. We just report them. I think we should include Yi Yong's words. Fnhddzs 02:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yueyuen, do we have a source for that July 22, 1999 date? It's gotta have a source and it's got to be verifiable. CovenantD 02:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, to avoid POV on either side, the first sentence can just read "The exact number of practitioners is not known."

Concerning Dilip's statement about no e-mails lists, we know that is not correct at least for the United States. Keep in mind that Li travels to many cities in the US to give lectures which are never open to the public and require a ticket for attendance. Practitioners themselves are not told if he will show up, but they are told about the meetings and travel arrangements ahead of time because often they may have to travel hundreds of miles to get there. There is no doubt that the Falun Gong uses large e-mail lists to communicate with practitioners as well as other groups. In a recent LA speech, Li was asked the following question:


 * Disciple asks: We have been clarifying the truth and exposing the evil from the angle of human rights by regularly sending emails to mainstream society, governments, and organizations in different countries, and have had great results. We now have a database that contains millions of addresses. Some people think that this precious resource of ours should be used primarily for our main tasks, which are clarifying the truth and exposing the evil, while others think we should maximally utilize this resource by using it to send out other things such as event notices, announcements, Gala promotions, and communications on activities related to the advocacy of human rights in China, etc. This is a specific question, but it's very important, because if it's not handled well it could have a negative effect.


 * Teacher: You first have to be clear about what you are doing today. You are saving sentient beings, so things that are unrelated to saving sentient beings are not among the things you need to do. Once you have told people the facts about the persecution of Dafa disciples and about Dafa, the other things are less important.


 * Of course, these specific matters should be looked at case-by-case. Motivating them to join ordinary people's rights advocacy movements is not a responsibility Dafa disciples have. The media you run can focus somewhat on those activities, provide information on them to the public, and expose the vile CCP. There's one thing you must be clear on, though. The purpose of your existence is not for rights advocacy efforts; rather, the rights advocacy efforts have taken place to assist Dafa disciples in validating the Fa. (Applause) You need to keep your priorities straight! If you are promoting Gala tickets, that of course is meant to help them learn about Dafa and Dafa disciples. (Teacher smiles)

Notice three things about Li's answer:
 * 1) He assumes the role of manager of his organziation by answering these types of very mundane organizational questions. He played the same role in China and issued many specific directives while visting his different Falun Gong centers.
 * 2) Although he says that the priority use for these large e-mails lists should be clarifying the truth and exposing the evil, he also gives his approval for using these large e-mail lists for promoting events (other than joining civil rights organizations) and specifically approves a mailing for the upcoming Falun Gong Gala. (Can I get a ticket?)
 * 3) Finally, Li tells his practitioners in LA that "the media you run can focus on" promoting the joining of civil righs groups. Essentially he is saying that internal Falun Gong events can be promoted by their own mailing lists, but those promoting other organizations, such as encouraging practitioners to join their local chapter of Amnesty International (so they can lobby for anti-China resolutions), do not justify the use of the internal e-mail lists.

Despite all the denials, the Falun Gong definitely has a kind of organizational structure, rather like the organizational structure of un-incorporated grassroots groups in the West. But unlike grassroots organizations which encourage bottom-up decision making and frequently elect their leaders, in the Falun Gong there is only one decision maker, the Master himself. --Tomananda 07:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, of course he will answer when disciples ask him questions. He did not say: "Come and ask me these kind of questions". Disciples ask him questions because the disciples think their Master is wise, and also disciples does not want to do anything that can have a bad influence to Dafa, so they ask their Master if it is okey to go ahead with this or that. I don't see how this has anything to do with "membership" or "organization". /Omido 10:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, it is not a Falun Gong Gala, it was the Chinese New Years Gala, which was arranged and done by Dafa disciples. /Omido 10:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, the only line in all of that that really matters is, "Well, to avoid POV on either side, the first sentence can just read 'The exact number of practitioners is not known.'" :-) All the rest, and Omido's reply, is best dealt with in the body of the article somewhere.

So, with Tomananda's revision of the first sentence, I think we have consensus. I'm making the change. CovenantD 13:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I don’t believe there is consensus. Tomanda has given us nothing more than pov towards allegations of membership or email lists. Clearly the email lists the practitioner is referring to in the question above are those of VIPs or organizations, rather than of practitioners themselves. Like Omid said, practitioners ask questions related to problems they seek their Master’s guidance on. Since many practitioners are very busy working in various organizations to stop the persecution they often ask questions related to their work. This in no way implies that Mr. Li is some kind of manager or someone controlling all these things. As for mailing lists (newsgroups), I’m on a number of Falun Dafa mailing lists. Some local, some international. So what? This is to facilitate communication on various things related to what we may be concerned with. You don’t have to join mailing lists to practice Falun Gong. There are many practitioners who don’t even have computers. This has nothing to do with membership. Bottom line: there is no membership in Falun Gong. This is undeniable and no evidence has been presented to prove otherwise. This is the reason we don’t know how many practitioners there are in the world and it should be included in this paragraph. Mcconn 18:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, thank you for providing a citation for the July date. Can't get more official than the Embassy website.

Mcconn, this is as close to consensus as we're going to get without spending another week on it. Any further information can go in the article itself. If it's this contentious an issue, then it needs space to explore that and the intro isn't the place. What we have now is bare-bones and NPOV. CovenantD 18:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Covenant, I agree...the introduction needs to be as neutral and basic as possible. There are two sides to the issue of Falun Gong's organization, and I can picture a whole section being written on that topic alone. But none of that is needed or appropriate for an introduction.--Tomananda 22:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Put it up. I'm fine with it being up, but I think it can be better. As I said before there's no evidence or even reasonable claims to suggest that Falun Gong has some kind of membership or that the organization is more than very loose, but there are lots to suggest otherwise. I've given you first hand experience and it is reinforced in Mr. Li's statments regarding organization. Simply because a couple editors do not believe this doesn't mean that we shouldn't include it. It's not a matter of POV or neutrality. This is the way it is and it is a simple, basic fact about Falun Gong. I understand the desire to move forward and I also want to. I just think that this a very basic point, and there is little reason to not include it. I think this point is on the verge of resolution so can we move forward while maintaining this discussion? Mcconn 19:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying that it can't be included in the article, but I'd rather we didn't get bogged down in the intro. CovenantD 19:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One last dispute on the numbers
Let's talk about the new date, July 1999, and the reference http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t36570.htm that Samuel provided. Dilip, what do you think it wrong with it? CovenantD 17:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Besides the fact that it shows a November date. CovenantD 17:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The figure was provided in July, 1999, but the statement is in Chinese. The November date is the the day that statement was posted, I am changing the wroding to make that clear. --Samuel Luo 18:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Adding words like "however" and "main" are not part of what we agreed to. Please don't change the implication. I've reverted to the last version we had consensus on until this is resolved. CovenantD 19:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * CovenantD, I remember disagreeing using this statement “On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily.” See This statement has no consensus among editors.  Also “alleged” was added without consensus as well.    --Samuel Luo 20:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

CovenantD, What is wrong with the following statement? “However, according to a statement posted on November 1, 1999 the membership estimated by Beijing was 2.1 million.” I can understand if you want me to explain why “however” is needed. But what is your logic reverting the statement back to this “On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily?”  --Samuel Luo 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have a problem with it. Dilip sent me a message about it, so I reverted until it's settled. I thought I was reverting to the last version we had consensus on. Do you want be to go all the way back to the frozen version? I think what's there at least represents some progress. If Dilip hasn't explained why he has a problem in a day or two, we'll change it to an earlier date. CovenantD 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since we're talking about the same number estimate, I think the earliest appearance of that number...coming as it does from the Chinese goverment's own website...is better. --Tomananda 22:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm willing to accept any citation that the two "sides" of this issue can agree on. If it's the July date, fine. I don't read Chinese, but if there's agreement, I'll trust those who do. CovenantD 22:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong's main/official website
Clearwisdom.net is the English version of Chinese Minhui—the Falun Gong’s official/main website. Li has stressed the authority of the minhui net: “'On important matters, practitioners watch the position of Minghui Net. The purpose of posting my photo and the article 'The Knowing Heart' on Minghui Net was to build a trustworthy website for practitioners.'" This statement was included in an article call “On Important Matters, Practitioners Must Pay Attention to the Attitude of Minghui Net” published on July 14, 2000 on the Falun Dafa Bulletin Board.

I notice that two practitioner-editors objected to calling clearwisdom.net a “main” website of the FAlun Gong in the 3rd paragraph, intro. This is just another denial/lie from practitioners. As Li’s statement unmistakably points out the status of this website, it should be labeled as “main” or “official” website of the group. --Samuel Luo 23:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Minghui or Clearwisdom was mainly for cultivation experience sharing among Falun Gong practitioners. Most articles were written by practitioners. However, practitioners are just practitioners, humans on the way of cultivation. Not gods. Any views of practitioners cannot stand for Falun Gong teachings. Yes, the Minghui or Clearwidsom has been used as a website to release Master Li's new articles/talks. Master Li stressed its creditability on releasing his articles because, in my view, some people pretend they are Master Li and spread faked stuff such as "the Tenth Talk" of Zhuan Falun. However, this does NOT imply endorsing everything published on the website as Falun Gong teachings.

So Clearwisdom is not an official/main website standing for Falun gong teachings. Even falundafa.org are established by practitioners. Everything except the Falun Gong teachings originals cannot stand for Falun Gong teachings. On the www.falundafa.org, it is said All of the content in this site – excepting the founder's writings – represents the ideas and opinions of Falun Dafa practitioners, and should not be taken as representative of Falun Dafa itself.

On clearwisdom website, it is said Created and maintained by Falun Dafa practitioners, Clearwisdom.net is designed to serve both fellow practitioners and the general public with daily articles that provide insights into Falun Dafa cultivation practice, expose the harsh persecution in China, and report the news of Dafa activities around the world.

If you are new to Falun Dafa, we encourage you to first visit our introductory site www.falundafa.org to find out more about the original teachings of Falun Dafa. In sum, ideas, understandings, writings, speeches of Falun Gong practitioners are not Falun Gong teachings. Fnhddzs 01:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since the master stressed the importance of that website, and that his teachings as well as experiences of practitioners are shared in this website, is it wrong to call it the main website of Falun Gong? --Samuel Luo 01:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Honestly, Samuel? I think if it's controversial we should keep it out of the intro. Using the word main just isn't important enough to argue over. We can deal with it in the article. There used to be a section called Media. It needs to come back, I think, or maybe the Controversies article. CovenantD 02:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It is controversial only because Falun gong practitioners are trying to conceal the truth. Anyone with common sense will see that it is a "main" website. I can not give in to their unreasonable demand. --Samuel Luo 03:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there is no concensus on changes, the intro shoud be reverted back to the protected version. --Samuel Luo 03:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Enough of this going back to the protected version. This straw poll shows consensus on having a basic statement about the number not being known and including all three figures in chronological order. These are the numbers that were present when the straw poll took place, so this is the last version to have consensus. THIS is the one that we revert to.


 * The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a NY Times article published April 27, 1999. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of Chinese government. On August 24, 2000, a figure of 2.1 million practitioners was presented in the People's Daily. A Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including over 70 million in China.

- CovenantD 19:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Even FalunDafa.org introduces clearwisdom.net as the “main” Falun Gong website. The following statement is from FalunDafa.org:
 * Clearwisdom.net: The main Falun Dafa web site for practitioners and whoever is interested in Falun Gong issues. It is mainly for telling the truth of Falun Gong, sharing insights and information in Falun Gong and cultivation practice, and disclosing the persecution in China.

I hope this statement settles the issue. --Samuel Luo 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. Thanks. I had never known that. It is only stated in the English (sorry I don't know other languages than English or Chinese) version of falundafa.org written by the website owners. I don't care it too much though. Fnhddzs 22:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Fnhddzs, does that mean that you agree to have it in the 3rd paragraph? Dilip, what about you? CovenantD 00:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * When the group itself calls this website a main website I don't think consensus is needed. Are we going to stop calling the Chinese government a authoritative regime if there is no consensus? --Samuel Luo 00:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I just don't want another revert war over this. I want them to put in writing that they agree to this. CovenantD 00:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I am ok except that I added a "A" before it. "A main Falun Dafa website" Fnhddzs 00:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, it should say "a main Falun Dafa website." --Tomananda 01:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Dilip, elsewhere on this page, has expessed his approval of the 3rd paragraph. We've done it folks. We have a paragraph that everybody has explicitly agreed to!! CovenantD 16:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

3rd Party Intervention
What we truly need, although contrary to major Wikipedia principles, is a third party to look into the issue of Falun Gong that has very little to no prior knowledge. This suggestion, being the only solution left in editing this article, is incredibly idealistic in and of itself. Debating about Falun Gong is currently more controversial than debate about the existence of Jesus. People on both sides will never reach a consensus, and as new back-up evidence continues to surface for both sides in this issue, it is really impossble to ever complete this article in any of our sentient lifetimes. Colipon+(T) 23:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The 3rd Paragraph
The NY Times figure has disappeared one more time. I am reverting it to the version Covenant introduced. And deleting Samuel's personal website from the references section. Dilip rajeev 18:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Citing sources
I'm going to start revamping the References list based on the guidelines found at Citing sources. I also want to add a short list of Wikipedia articles for people to read at the top of the this talk page. It would include stuff like Reliable sources, Notability, and Verifiability. CovenantD 00:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. try to work together with you all. Fnhddzs 01:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Due to the instability of the article, there isn't much point in formatting them because they'll just get reverted and then you'll have to do it again. Waste of time really. Edit wars are easier with inline links. Skinnyweed 09:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Related Legal Cases
Cawley v. Malin - New York State Supreme Court, U.S.A. A divorce case filed on the grounds of fraud, adultery and mental cruelty as a result of espionage for the Falun Gong against the Chinese Government. www.courts.state.ny.us  You can search on court case reference number 24648/2003 I can fax you copies of the court documents if you insist. Also, Rick Ross has been retained as an expert witness. Likewise, I can fax you a copy of the fee agreement.
 * Note - the court system does not permit hyperlinks directly.

Dear Falun Gong members: You can remove this section; however, you can not remove THE TRUTH. Sincerely Chris Cawley

Plea to pro-Falun Gong editors
User pages of several non-Falun Gong practioner editors, as well as this main article page, have been hit again by apparently pro-Falun Gong vandal(s) today. A few days ago there was a similar incident, user pages and this talk page as well as the main article were all hit.

It goes without saying that vandalism is counterproductive for Wikipedia. As such, in the (hopefully unlikely) scenario that you might know who carried out or was behind these attacks, other editors and I hope you would advise them to stop their vandalism. Thank you. --  Миборовский  05:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

this user Redzsuckz has also vandalized the article. It was created earlier today. --Samuel Luo 08:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It was blocked indefinitely. We can revert any change he makes without breaking a sweat, so he ends up wasting much more manhours than we will. Though it would be good if we didn't have to, which is where vandal-hunting bots come in handy... :D --  Миборовский  09:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You know, that vandal really reflects badly upon you FLG folks. Zhen Shan Ren? Heh. Look, we'd really appreciate a page without vandals. So please, if you can do anything to stop it, please do. --  Миборовский  09:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add junks on the article


Fnhddzs 05:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It has been removed. Now, if there wasn't that annoyingly (but harmlessly) persistent vandal this would probably not have stayed there as long as it did. ;) --  Миборовский  06:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Continuing with the Edits
Covenant.. Lets carry on with the job of scrutinizing material on the main page and cleaning up the article.

We have reached consensus on the 3rd paragraph of intro. It is hoped that nobody would change it.

The first and second paragraphs of the intro
The second paragraph said Falun Gong was banned for "illegal activities".. somebody again deleted the "alleged" word. I have deleted the phrase which is completely non-factual and and an unnecessary extrapolation. Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Covenant.. I think we must carry on the discussion of the first two paragraphs..

A few suggestions: Dilip rajeev 15:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Have a section on talk page for keeping paragraphs on which a consensus has been reached. That way a lot of arguments can be saved
 * 2) Set deadlines for discussing each paragraph on talk page.

- CovenantD 16:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) I think I want to move the 3rd paragraph discussion into /Archive 10. I'll put a placeholder in so they can be integrated as we finish other paragraphs.
 * 2) Already suggested one for midnight (UTC) for the second paragraph.

Li Hongzhi biography
Could somebody please explain why "In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in Chinese Zhuan Falun from 1995 to 1999..." is still there? As I know, this biography was not a official Falun Gong material, also...this has no verifiable source, does it? If it does, I would like to see it. I am a Falun Gong practitioner and still have not even seen any bipgraphy. /Omido 19:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Funny you should ask... I've just finished setting up the references for the Intro and Origins sections and the biography was one of them. You can follow the inline link or you can go down to the References section and find a full reference and link there. Hope that helps! CovenantD 19:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That is a biography, not an autobiography. Also it is funny about the date from 1995 to 1999. I don't think that is right. It existed as of 1994. And it was removed since 1996.

"The Chinese version of this biography can be found in Li Hongzhi, Zhuan falun (Turning the Wheel of the Law) (Beijing: Zhongguo guangbao dianshi chubanshe, 1994) ... but has not been published in that book since 1996." Fnhddzs 20:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Omido has a point there. The biography certainly appeared in a version of Zhuan Falun by a publisher in China. But thats something a publisher chose to add as an appendix and the material was written by some journalist. It really isnt of much relevance to the article.

Dilip rajeev 20:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest it be removed from the origins part. It is not teachings. not related to Falun gong practice. not related to the article. It is not in press any more. It is out of dated. It is odd to put there. This paragraphy was not there before. Not a consensus to put it up. The article is in a warped shape, with an odd "origins" and lengthy "ethics". Fnhddzs 20:16, 10 June 2006 (UTC) I added more contents in the Origins. Everything was from the same biography. Fnhddzs 20:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I knew when I looked at this one that it was going to be trouble...
 * Omido, I've given you the reference.
 * Fnhddzs, so what if it's a biography rather than an autobiography? That's not enough reason to rule it out. And, where did you get that quote you use? It could be important. Also, just because something is out of print is not reason to exclude it. A version of the paragraph was in place when the page was frozen, as seen here.
 * Dilip, if it appeared in published copies of Zhuan Falun for multiple years, that tends to indicate that it's not a publishing mistake. Again, the fact that it was written by somebody else is not enough reason to rule it out.


 * I think we should leave it in place for now and give Tomananda or whoever added it a chance to respond. We've only heard from one side so far.

- CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a biography and Li Hongzhi has not officialy recognized it. Further, of what relevance is a biography written by a journalist in an article of Falun Gong. Should it be taking up a major part of the page? An article on Christianity wont carry pages of criticism on Christianity... A page saying "Criticism of Christianity".. in itself is a POV if it takes up a huge portion of the article .. Anybody( with a strong POV + ulterior motives) can pull two sentences out of The Bible, put them out of context and say "elitism" and "intolerance".. and then get two books from the market to "substantiate" his claim. Dilip rajeev 21:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Unauthorized biographies are still valid sources. I'll grant that some of this may be more appropriate for Li's article than this one. To use an example that's been cited here before Scientology has a criticism article and a pretty extensive summary right in the main article. But that's starting to get into structure, and this section of the talk page is about Li's biography so I'll stop. CovenantD 21:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like the stuff in the same biography, then do not use it at all. Fnhddzs 21:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? CovenantD 22:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You suggest removing the text I added from the biography. I think we cannot hide information if the biography is used. Either do not use it or keep full information. Fnhddzs 22:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been busy with non-Falun Gong related political activities recently and have not been able to keep up with all these postings. Even though I was not the editor who added the paragraph about Li's authorized biography in the Origins section, I feel strongly it belongs there. Here's why:


 * Early writings about the biographies of historical figures are definitely relevant to a report on their "origins"...in fact, these writings are likely to be more relevant than material that comes later, since over time leaders and organizations tend to re-invent themselves and modify their messages.
 * The existing biographical records about Jesus were written by contemporaries after his death. The "gospels"...Mathew, Mark, Luke and John...were all written decades after his death, and the  gnostic bible material was written a century or more after the gospels.  These sources do not agree on historcial points, but nevertheless they are key historical documents for the life of Jesus.  And religious scholars (eg: Karen Armstrong) generally give the most biographical weight to earliest writings for obvious reasons.
 * The fact that Li had this early biography deleted from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun is, of itself, relevant to his biography and needs to appear in Wikipedia.
 * Although the Zhuan Falun version of the biography was partially based on an earlier version written by a journalist, it is by no means the same document. As Penny points out, there are significant differences between the longer earlier version and the edited (and changed) Zhuan Falun version.
 * Penny has used the term "authorized" to describe the Zhuan Falun biography and for good reason. Practitioners may be reluctant to acknowledge the degree of control Li Hongzhi exerts over his publiclations, but that control is easily proven by many of Li's own statements. Here's a good example from Li's 1996 writing called "Awakening"  in the Essential for Further Development:
 * Disciples must remember: All Falun Dafa texts are the Fa that I have taught, and they are revised and edited personally by me.  From now on, no one may take excerpts from the tape recordings of my lectures on the Fa, or compile them into written materials.

Finally, as Covenant points out, even unaothorized biographies can be used as sources for people's lives --Tomananda 22:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Notice that Li sid that he revises and edits all Falun Dafa texts. Since the Zhuan Falun is Falun Gong's most important text, and the master said in 1996 that he reviews and edits the content of these books, how can anyone question the "authenticity" of that biography?  The fact that the biogrpahy no longer is authorized by Li does not diminish it's relevance.  In fact, I think it becomes more relevant precisely because Li had it pulled from subsequent editions of Zhuan Falun.


 * That Bio was not written by people outside of the Falun Gong but the Falun Dafa Reseach Society chaired by Li. Also this Bio was written under Li’s authorization, he is the only one who knows his many masters and training.  It was published in Zhuan Falun from 1994 to 1999 and provided info about the origin of the Falun Gong and Li’s wisdom and supernatural power. Falun Gong practitioners are again trying to conceal the truth. You guys are abunch of liers --Yueyuen 01:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, it wasnt written by the research society but by a journalist. None of the sources say the research society wrote it.. Using the biography, is alright with me but just pointing out. Dilip rajeev 04:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yueyuen, NO personal attacks! We get enough of that from anonymous vandals, we don't need it from each other. CovenantD 01:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

ok. Let's use the biography. Please do NOT delete my edits! They are all from the same biography. Fnhddzs 04:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Origins v History
As I said, please do NOT delete the edits fromt the same biography! Why you want to hide information ? Fnhddzs 19:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the others, but I told you to take it to the correct article, History of Falun Gong. Origins deals with how it came into being. History is what happens after it's begining. That's not my opinion, that's the definition. CovenantD 19:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't care much the structure. I care exercising the same standard. If you put them in the history. Put them ALL. Otherwise, keep them ALL. Thanks. Fnhddzs 19:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Exactly, it is about how it came into being. It fits beautifully in the Origins. The age 4 or 8 stories have less relation with Falun Gong's origins.Fnhddzs 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * For the record, I've read the first English translation of Zhuan Falun which has Mr. Li's biography. According to the related discussion, there are apparently two versions. I'm not sure if the one I read is the same as the one we're using. If it is, then I have no quams with using this information responsibly. If it's included as a section of the book, then it's acknowledged by Mr. Li. Mcconn 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Article structure
Now that we've had some success on finding agreement on a paragraph of the intro, do you think we should look at the structure of the article again? Many of the daughter articles have been created and editing is going on in them, but we should decide which ones are good and which ones need to be renamed or combined or split. I think it's time, if not now then when we finish the second paragraph. CovenantD 20:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's important to look at the other articles too, but I recommend we at least try to finalize what we have agreed to in the introduction section while the topics are fresh in everyones' mind. Could you just post below what you conisider to be the approved text, or did you do that above and maybe I missed it. Also, I'd like to finish the second paragraph first --Tomananda 22:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The only one we've agreed on is the 3rd paragraph and that's already in the article. The discussion for the 1st and the 2nd are somewhere above this. I can refactor so that they're at the bottom again if people want. CovenantD 22:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if you could sort of put it all together so we can see where we're at, that would help at least me and probably others as well. --Tomananda 05:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)