Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 14

Archived discussion:
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive6, 22 March 2006 to 10 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive7, 10 April 2006 to 25 April 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive8, 25 April 2006 to 26 May 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive9, 26 May 2006 to 2 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive10a, 2 June 2006 to 4 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive10b, 4 June 2006 to 10 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive11, 10 June 2006 to 27 June 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive12, 27 June 2006 to 5 July 2006
 * Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive13, 5 July 2006 to 3 August 2006

Donot Slander a true cultivation way
You apparently are just repeating CCP's tales... You dont seem to have the slightest clue on what you are talking about.

There are reasons why Falun Dafa cultivators clarify the truth about the persecution to people and that has nothing to do with "politics". When someone carries bad thoughts against a true teaching and slanders the Dharma isnt he accumulating terrible sins? Where is his being heading for?

Falun Dafa prcatitioners are letting the world know of the terrible and most inhumane persecution innocent people are facing in China.. hoping to bring an end to these unspeakable atrocities.. and you label that "politics"?

People like you think Buddhist scriptures are something for intellectual studies... you study it like some kind of philosophy and then you are "qualified" for whatever..

The Dalai Lama has said Falun Dafa is "very good".

Gautama Buddha himself prophesized that during this period of time the Great Law (Da Fa ) would spread far and wide.. A Sutra refers to the teaching by the name "the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )" and "the Thus Come One's sudden teaching"

''Alas! In the evil time''

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )

- Gautama Buddha

(SE 62-63)

It is only natural that people who consider themselves "qualified" by reading some scriptures as if they were some made-up specualtive philosophy appear during in this period of time.. ... I request you to read this Sutra ..


 * Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."


 * The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas they will pervert and destroy my teachings.... They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.


 * "At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Fa will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.


 * "If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.

. ..


 * "When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.


 * "When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. ( According to the Dao school and The Book of Changes this precisely is the period of reversal of yin and yang )


 * Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.


 * "The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . ..


 * "Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the, the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.

.I al. .


 * Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"


 * The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."


 * When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew.

(SS I xiv-xvi)

Latest archiving
I have archived the last bit of the talk page as it was getting way too big to deal with. If there are bits that you want to use for a point about editing the article, please either link to the appropriate archive or cut and paste quote to here. Thanks. --Fire Star 火星 21:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good job Fire Star, but you archived current discussion, so I am restoring the discussion about alleged mass organ harvesting by the Chinese government of Falun Gong members.

Can we please get back to the topics at hand?
We need to get a new moderator. I would volunteer; however, the FLG cult members would never allow it. Cj cawley 02:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * of course they would never allow it... when you use such POV language! Frade 11:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese government mass organ harvesting of Falun Gong prisoners
Is China harvesting organs from Falun Gong practitioners?
 * Articles:
 * Global bazaar in body parts, San Francisco Chronicle Thursday, July 20, 2006 by Debra J. Saunders
 * Former Chinese policeman lifts lid on organ harvesting, ABC News Online Tuesday, July 25, 2006 by Michael Edwards
 * Awareness tour stops in Airdrie, Airdrie Echo, Wednesday August 02, 2006 by Brooke Hogemann
 * Police Witness Tells of Organ Harvesting Deals, The Epoch Times, Tuesday, July 08, 2006

--HResearcher 09:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

China is organ harvesting according the the chinese and english epoch times.

60.225.199.123 09:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Falun Gong mass brain harvesting of Communist cadres!!!
 * See for reference *insert dodgy self-made site*
 * Just kidding. --Sumple (Talk) 10:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you saying the sources suggesting that this happening are dodgy? Mcconn 17:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. All of them appear to derive from the same few unreliable sources (the Epoch Times, a FLG mouthpiece). The fact that a story is repeated several times does not make it true, except to Stalin ("A lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth").
 * I doubt the veracity of this story because it is way too sensationalistic. Without some neutral and reliable source, it seems like concoction (e.g. for immigration purposes). --Sumple (Talk) 01:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Omido, there is an independent 45 page report. I'm waiting for him to supply proof of this report. --HResearcher 10:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Here you go: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ The new link is up and running. Mcconn 16:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an issue that does need to be investigated by an Independent third party organization. David Matas and David Kilgour are, from what I know of them, Falun Gong practitioners and may have ulterior motivations and hidden agendas. BUT, I and say this with the up most caution, during WW2 only the Jewish papers talked about the holocaust as early as 1939 where as the mainstream press only picked up on it two years after the war ended.


 * David Kilgour is not a Falun Gong practitioner. He is the former Chief Prosecutor of Canada, and a former federal politician having server over 20 years in parliament. This report is independent, and will no doubt form the basis for any further investigations by the likes of Amnesty, etc. Frade 23:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately in today’s world it is all too easy to create an organization and use it to say anything you want. Politicians do it all the time; half the PAC’s that endorse them are ones they created themselves!

We all should encourage groups like Amnesty International and other human rights watch groups to examine this issue and publish their findings. --Otomo 19:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The organ harvesting allegation is a Falun Gong lie
On April 13, 2006, an official from the hospital gave the following statement: “the hospital is lacking the required facilities to conduct organ transplants and has no basement to house the Falun Gong practitioners.” Le Tian, Falun Gong lies slammed by hospital China Daily, April 13, 2006.

According to a document from Ministry of Health of Malaysia, this hospital—Liaoning Thrombus Medical Treatment Center—is partly owned by a Malaysian company, Country Heights Health Sanctuary. 

The US government did investigate and the Chinese government cooperated. Officers and staff from the U.S. embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang city have visited the area and the specific site on two separate occasions. According to the State department report, “In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.” US State Department, U.S. Finds No Evidence of Alleged Concentration Camp in China 16 April 2006

More articles expressing doubts about the Falun Gong allegation. Harry Wu of Laogai Research Foundation doubts FLG's claim: http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/bc.cgi?bc/bccn/0606/07chinese

HK newspaper Takunpao's investigation discredits FLGs claim: http://www.takungpao.com/news/06/03/31/ZM-545907.htm

A reporter's first hand experience with Falun Gong media outlet, Epoch Times: http://holidarity.blogspot.com/2006/04/organ-harvesting-controversy.html

Samuel makes a good point in his article: Does the group really believe that six thousand of its members were murdered in Sujiatun? The answer is no. The Falun Gong has kept a record of practitioners who allegedly died due to abuses; their personal information and the causes of their death have been disclosed in a section on the group’s official clearwisdom.net. As of June 3, 2006 the death toll was numbered at 2,898, and none of them were killed in the so-call Sujiatun concentration camp.8 In other words the victims of this crime do not exist! Despite the much so-call evidence and condemnations posted on Falun Gong websites, there is no attempt to account for these six thousand victims—a natural response if the group really believed such a crime has taken place. 

Many in the Chinese community here believe the Falun Gong is supported by the Taiwanese government. --Mr.He 23:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

There have been released a 45 page independent investigation (not by FLG people) which states that the organ harvesting are really happening. Omido 14:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok boys. First of all, the first source of the organ harvesting allegations did not come from a practitioner or anyone who had anything to do with Falun Gong, it was the ex-wife of a sergan. If you don't think that the source is credible, then read the investigation done by David Matas and David Kilgor to find out why she is. You don't believe Epoch Times or practitioners? Fine. But at this point the weight on these allegations come from the report done by the two affirmentioned Canadians, not practitioners themselves. These are high profile individuals with very good reputations. If I were you I would read up on them and read their investigation report before you go any further with denouncing their claims. After conducting an independent investigation they firmly believe that this organ harvesting is happening and on a large scale. You can currently access their report at this site: http://www.come4u.info/ . I think this is a temporary site until they can get a better domain name.


 * Also take a look at Kilgor and Matas' response to an article in the Embassy Newspaper here


 * Samual's argument is poor. The death toll listed on clearwisdom is not the number of practitioners we believe to have died from the persecution. Instead, it is the number of deaths verified through eyewitness accounts. Practitioners have always said that the true number is likely much higher. Plus, there is a huge number of practitioners that have simply gone missing in China.


 * It took the Chinese government weeks to respond to the allegations of organ harvesting. After a number of weeks they released a statement denying the claims and invited a US delegation to investigate. This was more than enough time to cover up anything they had to hide (and you know they would certainly do this if the allegations were true). This delegation was then given a show tour of the facility.


 * Overall, I find some people's fervant dismissal and denial of something as serious as this, something with so much now supporting it, really appaling. Olaf already commented on how some people's hatred for Falun Gong has spilled over into support for the Chinese government. You may deny this, but your actions show otherwise. Mcconn 16:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As for Mr.He's assertion that Falun Gong is backed by the Taiwanese government, what fact is this based on? It sounds completely ridiculous. "Anti-Chinese forces" working together, right? Give me a break. Mcconn 16:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

These two Canadians, David Matas and David Kilgor are simply repeating the words of the Falun Gong. The US government has clearly stated that such a crime did not take place, why would I want to believe these Candians who have not even been to China? When the allegation first surface I thought you guys had a legitimate concerned, but as the story developes I found you guys have no interest in studying the evidnences and the facts. All you guys have done is pushing the allegation while ignoring the reports from the US state department and other reliable sources. This is why I believe the whole thing is produced by the Falun Gong, a cult according to American cult experts. I can assure you guys that this lie has turned many Chinese who had chose to ignore the Falun Gong against your cult. --Mr.He 04:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr. He, unless you've got something concrete to back up your statements I'm not going to bother responding. I doubt you've even looked at Matas and Kilgor's report or their statments in response to criticism. You place great emphasis on a very shallow and sketchy investigation, while ignoring the more crucial facts. Take some time to do a little more research, consider the other perspective and really try to weigh the situtation. If you can do this I think you'll see which side truly tips the scale. Mcconn 05:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So it's probably all true, and the Chinese government or somebody related is here trying to deny it with their own lies? --HResearcher 22:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mcconn I hope you can show people here some respect by not calling us “boys.”

Because this Chinese hospital is partly owned by a Malaysian company which means it is out of the control of local Chinese authorities, and because the US government has verified that such an allegation is false, people like me and Mr. He would rightfully refuse to believe Falun Gong’s Organ Harvesting allegation. Deception is a distinctive trait of Falun Gong. You said that “there is a huge number of practitioners that have simply gone missing in China,” how about the 30 million practitioners outside of China that your group claims to have in 1999? It looks like they have all gone missing, who is killing them? You also said: “I find some people's fervant dismissal and denial of something as serious as this, something with so much now supporting it, really appaling.” What we are doing is exercising our critical thinking or reality check; only cult members would believe in something which is backed by no facts. HResearcher Editing others' words here is a violation, remember that. Are you trying to make anyone who disagrees with the Falun Gong a cousin of the Chinese government? --Samuel Luo 22:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I edited other' words? You mean I changed the sub-header. Anyway, there are conflicting stories which means there is a lot of room for further investigation! And from what I understand there is more investigation underway. --HResearcher 06:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The organ harvesting allegation
Omido, can you please post a link to that 45 page report? --HResearcher 10:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Here it is: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/ This is the new domain name, so please disregard the temporary link I provided above. Mcconn 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

More political heavyweights are now coming out in support of the claims. In particular, Edward McMillan-Scott, vice-president of the EU, who is currently touring with David Kilgour to raise awareness of the issue. Unlike the US "investigation", McMillan-Scott has actually uncovered more telling evidence pointing towards truth of the allegations.Frade 22:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Who is Financially supporting the Falun Gong???
Is the Taiwanese government supporting the Falun Gong? Here is what I know, until the beginning of this year boxes of VCDs and pamphlets had shipped to my mother’s house from Taiwan every week. They were then distributed in San Francisco by other practitioners. Every practitioner I talked to told me that producing these material in Taiwan cost much less than anywhere else. No matter how little money they cost someone still has to pay for them, but when I ask who is paying no one knows. Can you tell me why for the last four years (at least) huge quantities of Falun Gong propagandist material were produced and shipped from Taiwan and no one knows who is paying for them?

I have a friend who is working for San Francisco Examiner, a free newspaper. Three years ago he estimated that it costs about $250,000 per month to run the Epoch Times, a nationwide free newspaper which had no ads in its first two years. Who is paying? Practitioners I talked to told me that some rich practitioners in real state business have been paying for it but again no one knows their names. Also it is well known in San Francisco Chinatown that those elderly people protesting in front of Chinese consulate five days a week have been paid about $50 a day. The Falun Gong seems to have a very deep pocket, who is behind it? Many people believe it is the Taiwanese government some believe it is the CIA? What do you believe, aliens from Mars? --Samuel Luo 07:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Falun Gong people seem to have a endless supply of material for free distribution, and many of these material are highly political. The "Nine Commentary On the CPC" VCDs and books are good exmples. These political propaganda are calling for the downfall of the Chinese governmnet.  Producing the VCDs cost some money but what is more costly is the documentary contained in the VCD, who is paying for the producion of this film?  Also the books are printed in good quality which certainly cost a lot of money, who is paying for them?  So, these material are coming from Taiwan that explains everything.  --Mr.He 20:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a prevalent view in the Chinese community, at least here in Australia, that FLG is supported in some way by the Taiwanese government. For example, the recent defector Chen Yonglin defected with FLG support, and now he is popping up at events held by the present Taiwanese regime (that is, officials affiliated with the Democratic Progressive Party). I am not saying that this is evidence of financial backing, but that is certainly how many overseas Chinese view the situation. --Sumple (Talk) 10:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I can tell you that I am a practitioner from Australia, and I have not been involved with things for a very long time. I gradually came to understand what Falun Gong was about and my involvement grew over time. Everything, all materials, posters, events, everything I came across, was paid for by practitioners directly. I have personally put several hundred Australian dollars toward fliers. A doublesided piece of A4 paper costs 1c AUD. For example, one event cost $400 AUD in papers, and several practitioners all contributed. I´ve only been really involved for six months, doing things. People have jobs and they earn money, jobs in the government with decent wages. Those who understand what Falun Gong is in this period of time, and once I came to understand, would not bat an eyelid at giving over a lot of money for this cause. Furthermore, those in China do not bat an eyelid at the thought of brutal torture and a painful death. Maybe the thought of a Falun Gong practitioner now would be "what else have I got to do with the money I earn?" Of course, some people have families and they must look after them. Part of being a practitioner is learning the meaning of responsibility and certainly all practitioners, and Falun Gong in this period of time, is strictly being responsible to themselves and to this society. You are unable to understand the mentality of these people, but I can tell you that in my experience all money that I saw changing hands was between practitioners and printing houses. -- 0:59:04, 7 of August, 2006

You guys are really "digging into a bulls horn". You can gather all the "facts" you want, but you'll never prove anything with this argument. Why? Because it's simply not true. Again, I don't really feel the need to say much about this. No one gets paid any money to protest in front of the Chinese embassy. That's a total lie and, like the rest of your argument, you'll only waste your time trying to prove it. As for materials, there are practitioners in all professions (including graffic design, software engineering, programing, etc.) so as long as we've got the time and the resources (these days you don't need many resources to create a video like that of the nine commentaries) we can do pretty much anything we need. No one has to do anything. It's only because practitioners believe firmly in the cause that they do what they do. As for Sujiatun, I don't personally know all the details (in terms of the Malasian owner relationship), however, the sources never came from Falun Gong practitioners (we merely reported it). So if you think they're lying you can't say that it's Falun Gong practitioners who are lying. This aside, independant and reputable investigators who know a lot more than anyone here does about this whole thing have found these sources credible. Again, I suggest that you actually read the Kilgour and Matas report. It seems that you hold onto your opinion rather blindly (just my perspective). Mcconn 15:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Practitioners have contributed money for printing leaflets, but they have not paid for the boxes of VCDs and booklets from Taiwan nor did they pay for the Epoch Times, the radio network Sound of Hope and the satellite television station New Tang Dynasty. Mcconn, it is true that we don’t have any evidence to back our claim but don’t you find it interesting that no practitioner can provide evidence to relieve our suspicion?      --Samuel Luo 07:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seen the boxes from Taiwan full of Dafa material. I have also asked who pays for this, and the answer is the practitioners pay for it.  I have been at a few meetings where practitioners put out a lot of money to get boxes of Dafa material shipped to them.  Some practitioners are well off that they can spend a few hundred each month on material or have a business to make things such as the VCD's or do some small print runs.  Fa conferances are often funded by the hosting practitioners.  This is normal for groups like this.  JW, Mormons and Moonies all pay for thier material to hand out too.  After all, buying materials and handing them out is part of being a practitioner, and somewhat expected. --Otomo 23:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of evidence would you be looking for? If you want tax receipts and the like, those are the kind of things to be brought up in a court of law, not a simple discussion such as this. How do you know practitioners didn't pay for these things? I bet your parents or some other local practitioners payed for the stuff from Taiwan. Here's the big secret you've all been waiting for: In Taiwan it's cheaper to print things and there is a high concentration of practitioners there, some owning bookstores and probably some owning or operating print houses. So a lot of materials (not all) are made in Taiwan, then when practitioners in different areas need some materials from Taiwan, they contact them, place an order, and pay the printing and shipping costs. There you go. That's how it is. Mcconn 07:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Requests for mediation
I would like to ask everyone involved here to quickly read through the requirements at Requests for mediation. We will be requesting a neutral, official mediator in a non-partisan request to go over the dispute and suggest a plan to go forward. This is the next step in the dispute resolution process. In this step, there are no good guys or bad guys, just disagreement. To insist that anyone is wrong at this stage will derail the process, so I am asking forbearance from everyone while we make this request. Please comment below, I propose making the request in 5 days time if we can get a consensus to move forward with it. --Fire Star 火星 16:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Comments below this line

What happened to Covenant? Mcconn 16:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There was a misunderstanding about a request he made about this page and he ended up being temporarily blocked a couple of days ago, apparently. Understandably, he probably isn't likely to be willing to continue at this point. Part of why I proposed a 5 day discussion period was to see if he would come back voluntarily. If not (again, understandably) then we still have an article dispute to resolve. --Fire Star 火星 17:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, let's go for official mediation in 5 days. I think we should point out to the mediator that Covenant has already created a "To Do" list and that we should proceed according to the list.  Also, my understanding is that technically Wikipedia does not require a consensus in order to request mediation. In other words, there may be a hold out who is against mediation, but we can still go ahead and request it anyway. --Tomananda 19:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That is true, even one editor can make the request. The more of us who participate the request, the easier and quicker it will be to get a mediator to sign on, though. Interestingly, the head of the mediation committe is the same Admin that temp-blocked Covenant. --Fire Star 火星 20:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * CovenantD has done a lot on Falun Gong pages; I hope he comes back. But if he chooses not to return we should definitely seek a formal mediator.  Firestar has set the deadline on August 8th.  On that day I propose that the article be restored to this version 22:28, 6 July 2006.   --Samuel Luo 21:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda and Samuel,
The persecution in China is real, and you yourself know that.. why do you support that most cruel persecution? Could a person with a bit of goodness in his heart do such a thing? Calm down and look inside... Why do you hate people who cultivate truth, compassion and endurance? What is it that makes you hate zen-shan-ren? Could it be good?

Even after reading all the lies spread by the CCP, people know Falun Gong is good the moment they see the lecture videos.. or meet a practitioner.. they can objectively feel the compassion and goodness..

You may believe that the picture of the world formed by your senses is the truth... but isnt that blind belief in your own notions? The truth can only be objectively understood through cultivation practice.. only in the absence of notions and attachments can the truth be understood.. Whether you believe it or not.. the cosmos carries immense wisdom... it has its characteristic.. which may be put in human terms as zen-shan-ren.. the dao school cultivates zhen.. the buddha school cultivates shan - grand compassion towards all sentient beings..

Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ and all true masters pointed flaws in us which we must eliminate if we are to assimilate to the cosmic characterisitc.. as you progress in cultivation you understand things yourself... you know certain things are bad and goes against your own true nature and the characterisitc of the Cosmos... you made a big issue saying that homosexuality is not considered an upright human behaviour... how could it be? but that doesnt mean the person himself is bad.. What does the Bible say on that? What does the Buddhist scriptures say? As long as a person can realize there are flaws within himself.. and that he must completely eliminate such things that goes against his own true nature he can practice cultivation... but if he thinks I've been like this for as long as i can remember and this is me, he is going down with those things.... they turn against all upright teachings, what Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha taught... they tell themselves Gautama Buddha and Jesus Christ were making things up... and even slander the teachings.. what are they doing to themselves?

When Falun Gong grew so quickly in popularity in China some people who made A living out of teaching qi gong started to slander Falun Gong.. because of their selfish fears.. they dont even remotely suspect what they are doing to themselves by slandering a true cultivation way....

People when they listen to the lectures and spend time with practitioner know Falun Dafa is not something ordinary.... and the faith practitioners have in Falun Dafa is solid like a diamond and unshakable as it comes from cultivation practice, rational understanding, and innumerable objective experiences..

Some with a lot of karma feel terrified when they hear zhen-shan-ren ... why is it so? Think about it if a person wants to coverup and support the killing of innocents what is he carrying within himself? and what about a person who supports the killing of those who cultivate zhen-shan-ren? What kind of person is he?

We must look inwards with sincereity and understand what we have become and what our true self is..

Dilip rajeev 05:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok you are again telling us that the Falun Dafa is the most righteous teaching and practitioners are the most righteous people on earth. In this case why is that every time I want to show the Master’s writing to the world you guys always try to stop me?  His words are the most holy, right? --Samuel Luo 07:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Complete List of teachings of Falun Dafa Li Hongzhi's 9-day Lecture in Guangzhou, China Zhuan Falun(Translation by North American Practitioners) Falun Gong Exercise Instruction Videos Essentials for Further Advancement Other Speeches and Writings of Li Hongzhi
 * None of us have ever done such a thing. I have repeatedly said that I hope all editors go through all the teachings of Falun Dafa. All teachings being available for free download. You are taking a semi quote..completely taking it out of context and distorting the meaning.. and giving fancy interpretations to it.. so as to justify your absurd claims.

202.83.32.248 03:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Silly argument! I am not giving any interpretation to Li's teachings.  Li's words speak for themselves and the fact that Falun Gong practitioners refuse to acknowledge what Li says is an outrageous lie...a lie which Li himself has created by saying you must not speak at the higher levels when talking to ordinary people.  Why not?  Your role as Fa-rectification Dafa disciples is to save us ordinary people, isn't it?  Think about it!  If you don't speak the truth about what Li teaches, how are you ever going to save us?  However, I do have compassion for the bind Li has put you in.  I hope that some day there may be just one practitioner out there who hasn't been totally indoctrinated yet into the Falun Gong party line who might just benefit from reading these discussions.  --Tomananda 05:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

A Survey for Dilip, Mcconn, Andres, Olaf and company
Hey guys, Omido said he believes all these statements of Master Li. Do you as well?

No oriental people in Jesus’ paradise

“I have also found no oriental people in Jesus’ paradise. It is very sad!....I have also found no white people in Buddha’s paradise in the past.”  Falun Dafa Lecture in Sydney Australia (1996)

Li cures illness directly:

“Your illnesses will be cured directly by me. Those who practice at the exercise sites will have my Fashen (law bodies) to cure their illnesses.”   Zhuan Falun, 2nd  edition,   p.126

“The true cultivator has no disease, which my Law body has eradicated, and all that should be done will be done and there is nothing of acupoint massage. . . . It is no problem if you are a doctor because it is your job in ordinary people.” The Law Explication for Falun Dafa’s Assistants of Changchun,  (September 18, 1994), p.11.

Li is preventing the explosion of the universe:

“Today's scientists, too, have discovered the situation in which great changes are taking place in the cosmos. They've discovered that the scope of the universe they can currently see is expanding faster and faster, and the speed of the expansion keeps accelerating. I didn't want to talk about this before--I only taught principles of the Fa. Let's think about it: what does this expansion mean? Something only expands before it explodes; it expands and expands, and when it reaches a certain point it suddenly bursts. So everything is in its final stage. A lot of beings are watching all this with anxiety. As for the old forces, they, with their requirements in mind, are also anxious. Of course, the beings in the new cosmos are also eagerly longing for the conclusion of all this. The immense force of the whole Fa-rectification is doing its final work at an even more forceful speed, which transcends all times. Now it's only a little bit away from catching up with the speed of the surface's expansion. Of course, the speed of the expansion seems to be slow in terms of human time, but it's in fact very fast. I am doing things very fast, too. I've told you before that however much is done up there, that much can be broken through at lower levels. Although the universe is expanding, I'm doing things at an extremely fast speed, and I can definitely catch up with it. If I don't catch up with it, I can tell you, the final disintegration would make everything in the surface dimension cease to exist. If I do catch up with it, it's resolved. Not only will I catch up with it, but I will also surpass it, and that's when the Fa rectifies the human world.” Teaching the Fa at the 2002 Fa Conference in Boston (April 27, 2002)

Li protects his practitioners from harm:

“If you are a genuine practitioner, our Falun will safeguard you. I am rooted in the universe. If anyone could harm you, he would be able to harm me. To make it plainly, he would be able to harm this universe.” Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition, p.44

“I have adjusted your bodies and installed ‘Falun’ (a law wheel installed by the master in the lower abdomen of practitioners). . . and my Fashen (law body) also protects you. “ Falun Gong, revised edition, p.50

Until Falun Gong practitioners are willing to speak the truth about their beliefs, I cannot believe anything else they say. Consider this Wikipedia editing project a test: if you can make clear statements about your belief in Li Hongzhi's great supernatural powers, his exclusive ability to offer salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification, then you pass the test. As long as you continue to conceal the true teachings of Falun Gong, I cannot believe anything else you say about anything. And Dilip, I am not impressed with your sermon above. --Tomananda 07:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Simply put, Tomanada, practitioners of Falun Dafa believe in the teachings of Mr. Li. I think anyone who considers themself a practitioner believes in all of Mr. Li's teachings. This said, in a practitioners course of cultivation it's common to experience doubts over certain things at certain times. This is a natural test of faith that I believe occurs whenever anyone puts their faith in a belief and practices it wholeheartedly. And perhaps there are some things that one may always have difficulty understanding, but because one has gained faith through rational understanding and practice of many other things related to the practice, one nonetheless still believes them. This is faith and I think most people can understand this when they think about it. This is to say, I think your asking these questions is useless. As practitioners we believe in Mr. Li, but at the same time don't like playing your little games. So we may not always respond to these kind of things. From now on I think you should take it as a given that we believe in Mr. Li's words. I've said something similar to this to you before. Mcconn 16:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mcconn is right. I think that the most important reason for this, on my part, is what he said about "faith through rational understanding and practice of many other things related to the practice". For example, I know that the Falun Gong exercises work unlike anything else one can encounter in this world. That isn't really a matter of belief. I think any "unbeliever" would agree on their anomalous nature after doing the two-hour set of exercises a few times. Of course, if we want specific proof, this fact alone doesn't verify the truthfulness of Li's Dafa. But because of this - in addition to other equally striking phenomena, such as the miraculous changes in the human body and the quality of one's skin resulting from the practice of Falun Dafa - it is not hard to believe in the existence of extraordinary things. Having practiced for four and a half years, I have naturally encountered many other things, too. In short, we know for certain that impressive Falun Gong related phenomena do exist, so why wouldn't we believe in what Master Li says when he has already introduced the world something nobody else has done - something from an utterly different paradigm but still manifesting a tangible reality? On a lighter note, it's like magical realism, right?


 * But I'm also not into playing games, and I have lots of other things to attend to, so sometimes I just don't feel the urge to respond. ---Olaf Stephanos 16:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get back to the mediator
At least there are more real world people now. Cj cawley 13:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's get CovenantD back
Tomananda and Samuel Luo are responsible for his block. He was investigating them being gay lovers and roommates, and was blocked because of a dispute.

Everyone, it is important for credibility reasons that you fully disclose your relationships with other editors.

I for one find it strange that Samuel has already been accused of sockpuppeting Yueyuen, only to discover the man lives in a house with his FLG parents, and shares a room with Tomananda. This situation is very strange. Very. Something really weird is going on. And I wonder if there is some sort of motive behind Samuel and his lover's many, many posts on Wiki. In fact, it sounds like(from the article Samuel posted), Samuel and Tomananda are being supported by Samuel's FLG parents, living in their house. Samuel is a real person, judging from the article, but his motives are strange. Who puts so much energy, almost every minute of the day, into fighting their parent's religion? Who attacks their parent's religion, when even as a grown man, said person cannot even support himself and still lives with the parents at an old age?

Anyone have a way to interpret all of this? It surely makes no sense. Whitemanners 01:31, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Tomananda and I share a house and the same Comcast account therefore the only IP address. Although Tomananda is gay and I am straight, we are good friends who share the same values like treating others as one would want to be treated.  And that the Iraq war is based on lies and the Falun Gong is a deceptive, manipulative, racist and homophobic cult.


 * As a son who embraces the traditional values of Chinese family life, I was going to live with my parents and take care of them all of their lives. But sadly I had to leave my parents because living at home became stressful and emotionally draining.  My parents abandoned their medical treatments after being brainwashed into believing that their Master would cure their illnesses with his divine power, and they were clearly heading towards disasters.  Sadly all my attempts to stave off catastrophe failed.  I hated seeing Li’s portrait in our living room and hearing his audio tapes endlessly playing in the kitchen.  Leaving them gave me a chance to maintain my inner peace so I can recover and figure out what to do to get my family back and combat this cult.


 * Whitemanners the above message is not for you but to let everyone know that Tomananda and I are two users sharing the same IP address. I would not expect a heartless creature like you to understand the feeling of a son who has been trying his very best to maintain the relationship with his parents while fighting the cult that has broken up his family.  You think I have done a lot, no not really.  I want to thank you for giving me this push to contribute more on wikipedia.  Stay with us, you will see how much more I can contribute.   --Samuel Luo 06:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know how to interpret this situation! We should all consider who the real people are in this discussion and who the phonies are.  A real person will be proud of who he is and respect all others for who they are. Real people speak the truth without fear of being judged by others. As a gay man who came out in the 1960's, I know the destructive nature of living a lie. Living in a wonderfully diverse, dynamic city and having many loving relationships with people of various ethnicities and sexual orientations make me feel blessed.  Your curiousity about my relationship with Samuel,our living arrangements or other aspects of our personal lives is quite amusing.  I'll let you make whatever speculations you want, because none of this relates to editing this Wikipedia article.


 * Meanwhile, if I am to believe that you are a real person, I ask you to take the survey above about your beliefs in Master Li's teachings. If you are like Omido, you will respond by saying that you believe in everything that Master Li says, and nothing that I say.  That's cool with me.  Just be honest and tell us what you do believe as a Falun Gong practitioner--other than the fact that homosexuals have dark hearts, turning demonic, etc.  In a sense, I am asking that you come out of the  Falun Gong closet and speak truthfully about Master Li and your relationship to him.  I will not ridicule you, but rather respect you for being honest for a change.   --Tomananda 05:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Samuel, I am very sorry to hear that your family has been breaking up and I admire your determination in combating this cult. I also want to thank you for writing such a good article on your website.  I hope you and your parents can get back together soon.  I strongly recommend people to check out Samuel’s article-- The untold story of Falun Gong (Falun Dafa) and its Master --Mr.He 21:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Warning Will Robinson, Danger, Danger !!!
If that's not a personal attack, then I don't know what is. How is someone going to "check someone out" over the net? Also, who cares? Two people are still two people. Don't both of their opinions count? What's the difference between the two of them & two FLG people?

As for the medical issues, Dr Feng is a good example. I hope that the ex-wife will follow in her footsteps. Actually, I like the concept of retroactively voiding a person's validity after death. It's a pretty novel idea. Cj cawley 09:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What really bothers me about how the Falun Gong has ignored Lili Feng's death (by not reporting it on their websites, as if she never existed) is that apparently the practitioners are saying among themselves that she didn't spend enough time studying the Dafa. The suggestion here is that if she had, she might not have died.  But what that thinking leaves out is Li's teaching that sickness is an opportunity to get rid of karma and perhaps Dr. Feng had a lot of karma.  So a much better scenario could have been written by the Falun Gong for their website.  It could have reported that Dr. Feng had made a great contribution to the Falun Gong through her research and that she will always be honored for that. Li then could have said something about karma elimination and how Lili, having now gotten rid of all her karma with his help, is in Falun Gong paradise. I find it truly shocking that some kind of recognition like that has not been provided by Li or at least the top Falun Gong leadership. So much for loyalty to your own soldiers!  If the failure of the Falun Gong to recognize and honor the work of Lili Feng doesn't prove the exploitative nature of the Falun Gong, I don't know what does.  --Tomananda 17:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know why Dr. Lili Feng died, but there is no "top Falun Gong leadership" (would you name these persons and why they are "leaders", in other words, who is under their rule?). Besides, everybody's cultivation is a private matter. Nobody can do it on another person's behalf. And there are no "heroes" or role models in Falun Gong, that's your own sarcasm. Cultivation practice is about returning to one's own, true self. You just don't seem to understand our mentality.


 * Moreover, it is practically impossible for modern medicine to cure liver cancer [correction: pancreatic cancer], because it's one of the most fatal sicknesses. Some people choose to resort to homeopathy, some to traditional chinese medicine, some to synthetic drugs, some to qigong. Enforced medicalization is rather cocksure. We know that qigong in general can cure diseases, but Falun Gong also emphasizes that such effects depend on the individual's own pursuits and purposes.


 * It seems you aren't really concerned about Dr. Lili Feng, you are more interested in how you can polemize and exploit her bones. I have repeatedly stated that if we are right, we don't need proof for that, because everybody would know it in the future, and then it'd show that it was all just a question of "enlightenment quality" to begin with. If we are wrong, then we'll just "swallow our medicine". I have acted to the best of my knowledge, and I believe you have done the same. "Objectively" speaking, condemning CCP's human rights violations emphatically and unequivocally shouldn't depend on whether Falun Gong is completely true or not. ---Olaf Stephanos 17:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Responding to you point by point:
 * Other than Li Hongzhi himself, leaders of Falun Gong include it's "unofficial" spokespersons and media contacts; for example, Gail Rachlin (NYC)generally speaks for the group as a whole and Sherry Zhang plays a similar role in the San Francisco Bay Area. Then there's the fact that the very words Falun Gong (both in English and Chinese) have been patented by the US Patent and Trademark Office. In the more recent patent (Filing date June 17, 2005) the following commercial goods and services are listed for the Falun Gong: "T-shirts; jackets; pants; shirts; vests; suits; dresses; skirts; rain jackets; rain coats; scarves; hats; shoes; baseball caps; head bands; pins; pens; pencils; balloons and umbrellas."  To continue to pretend there is no organizational structure for the Falun Gong is patently (no pun intended) false.


 * You might want to say my use of the word "leaders" is inappropriate, but what else would you call people who organize activities and speak for an organization? Like you, I am involved in grassroots actitivities on a volunteer basis and there's no question that there are "leaders" of our various groups in California.  This is not something to be ashamed of, so I don't know why we are even discussing it.  Could it be because Li has said that in Falun Gong "there are no persons in charge"? But he has also spoken, most recently, of "persons in charge."  So go figure.  Anyway, it's clear to me that Falun Gong leadership (or maybe just Li himself) is responsible for maintaining a consistent PR image for the Falun Gong which is partly based on lies. Do I need to remind you of the way the Clearwisdom editors altered the San Francisco resolution on it's website, deleting wording that might not be totally favorable to the Falun Gong?
 * Despite your suspicions of my motives, my posted concerns about the way the Falun Gong has not publicly acknowledged the death of Dr. Lili Feng are genuine. Because I know some Falun Gong practitioners personally, I ask myself the question: what would happen if one of them were to die? Would the Falun Gong also ignore their deaths as inconvenient facts that might be construed to contradict the Master's teachings on sickness karma? One of the practioner/editors on this site has a mother who has a serious illness which is currently in remission.  He attributes her current good health to Falun Gong practice.  I also wonder: what if she were to have a relapse of this illness (which in western medical terms is very likely) some day.  Would he blame her for this relapse, thinking that she just hadn't been a good enough practitioner?  If so, don't you see something very wrong and exploitative about that?
 * Being on the inside of Falun Gong as a neutral observer, many practitioners that become ill or have a relapse are often accused of not having enough faith in the Teachings and as Mr. Li as the Master. This has lead to many practitioners to just leave FG when they become ill.  If the ill practitioner remains then there is also an sort of inquisition where other practitioners will ask the person who has become ill if they have any other spiritual material other than Dafa in their homes and are asked to throw it out.  If the practitioner becomes very ill there tends to be a shunning of the individual.  If the practitioner dies it is then declared that the person was never really a Falun Gong practitioner and that to much of the "Old Forces" interfered with that person.  Though, I have also seen practitioners come to FG with illnesses and after a time do get better.  Though I would argue that exercise, positive thoughts and social interaction where more likely the cure than anything else. --Otomo 15:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So Olaf, if you can grant me the benefit of the doubt and assume I am sincerely concerned about the absence of any public recognition of Dr. Lili Feng, would you please answer my original question: why hasn't the Falun Gong done a posting about her death on it's websites? --Tomananda 22:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * On a side note, Olaf says: "We know that qigong in general can cure diseases, but Falun Gong also emphasizes that such effects depend on the individual's own pursuits and purposes." Considering and working with a person's life choices and intent is a fundamental part of any traditional Chinese martial art, qigong or TCM training not to mention Western medical training ("Choosing to smoke cigarettes is bad for you"). It certainly isn't unique to FLG. --Fire Star 火星 13:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa is Cultivation Practice

 * Ah yes, more FL preaching. Hallowed are the Ori. --Yenchin 15:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa is cultivation practice.. not a group or anything.... you can practice Falun Dafa without ever meeting any other practitioner.. the sole reason practitioners came together and put a up a few websites like clearwisdom.net was because of the persecution happening in China.. so that kind-hearted people may get to know...

For one thing neither me nor Omid is blindly believing in anything.. it is unnecessary to believe or doubt when you understand.. belief and skepticism are just two words for saying "I dont understand it"... You dont say "I believe in the Newton's Laws".. Neither would you say "I am a Newton's Laws' Skeptic" .. you understand that it is just a model that serves as insight into motion at non-relativistic speeds..

Falun Dafa practitioners are not believing in anything .. we understand things objectively through our own experience and xiulian.. the Fa guides the practitioner in Xiulian.. right from the begining most people can feel the falun rotate.. There are Falun Dafa practice groups in Stanford, Princeton, Yale and Harvard.. do you really think all these people are blindly believing in something?

Samuel, Please go through any one of these nine lecture videos and then try to decide for yourself what Falun Dafa is.. Li Hongzhi's 9-day Lecture in Guangzhou, China

For one thing.. we are not "phobic" towards anybody. We cultivate compassion. Look at what the Bible and the what the Buddhist scriptures say on that. Was Jesus Christ "homophobic"? Was Gautama Buddha "homophobic"? You dont even remotely suspect what the state of mind of Jesus Christ or Buddha Gautama was. Do you really think they were ordinary people suffering from phobias?

Many people including my own mother have had their chronic illness cured, almost miraculously, on just starting to practice Falun Gong. Samuel, I wanted to talk to you many times.. I even thought of talking to you over messenger..your parents are not blindly believing in something.. Falun Dafa is not something ordinary..

Dilip rajeev 11:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Falun Gong is not something "ordinary". "Ordinary" doesn't involve the MURDER others. In better news though, User:Whitemanners has been indefinitely banned. Good riddance.Phanatical 15:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Phanatical, I see that you have been temporarily blocked too. What you say are nothing but words from the CCP propoganda, made up to justify their killing of thousands of innocents. You could go through the pages of Amnesty International, HRW or FDI ( http://www.faluninfo.net ) to know what has been happening in China and how the CCP has used propaganda to inundate hatred. You may want to go through this magazine..

http://www.faluninfo.net/Compassion5/Compassion5-v35-screen.pdf

here's an animation on the persecution that I just came across on a wikipedia user page..

http://media1.minghui.org/media/flash/2005/8/16/dove.swf

Dilip rajeev 17:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Dilip rajeev we know what the FAlun Gong is by reading Li's own words, so why don't you keep your POVs to yourself? --Kent8888 18:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, clearly you don't. ;-) --Mcconn 07:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Without Li the Cosmos Wouldn't Exist
Here's yet another quote from Li about his role as savior during this period of Fa-rectification:


 * No being knows who I am. Yet without me, the cosmos wouldn't exist. The reason I have come here is to save all sentient beings amidst the Fa-rectification at a time when the colossal firmament of the cosmos is disintegrating. Touring North America Teaching the Fa (March, 2002)   http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2002/4/14/2002natourlect.html

Should we use this one in the introduction? --Tomananda 17:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not if it isn't a reliable source. Unless you intention is to use this article as an attack page on the Falun Gong. --HResearcher 10:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well it is a claim from LHZ, right? --Yenchin 13:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

See, there is a lot of context that goes behind the quote. See this quote by Master Li Hongzhi from Teaching the Fa at the Easter U.S. Fa Conference (1999) "As I’ve said, and I need to repeat it: I am sitting here as a human erbeing, so regard me as a human being. Just like you, I need to eat and sleep. Of course, every being has his origin. I also have my origin." -Li Hongzhi Dilip rajeev 15:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * How dishonest practitioners are! Li has repeadly said he and his Dafa are saving all sentient beings and I have provided many quotes to that effect.  To remind you, we are trying to write some text for the introduction which covers both Li and the Dafa's exclusive role in salvation combined with Fa-rectification.  This particular quote combines both of those concepts.  In response, a practitioner says I am trying to attack Li.  How can my quoting Li be attacking him?  And for you to provide a quote in which Li says he is a human being...so what?  Li has also told the western media he is just an ordinary human being.  But ordinary human beings don't have the supernatural powers that Li has.  So if there is a problem here, it is not mine...it is yours. And if there is a need for "context" then the context for this article would need to report that Li has said contradictory things about his own status.  However, Li has consistently said he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation during this period of Fa-rectification.  Sooner or later this material will need to be reported in the introduction of this article and the fact that practitioners continue to deny the truth of their master's teachings is offensive to me and the general public.  As I have said repeatedly, if you can't be honest about the core beliefs of Falun Gong...and that most definitely includes salvation by Li and his Dafa during this period ohe f Fa-rectification...then how can we trust you to be honest about anything else, including all those  improbable stories of organ harvesting, for example?  It's the credibility of the Falun Gong that is on the line here, not mine.  --Tomananda 17:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

We cultivate the truth. We are not "dis-honest". It seems "contradictory" to you only because you dont even remotely understand this science. A human is not a pile of molecules - thats just what your fourth grade biology text told you.

I dont know what you are driven by but I know that most people would rather die than spend all day supporting one of the most cruel persecutions in history and parrotting the lies invented to justify it. Have you ever thought how many families would have been devastated by your all-day efforts to cover-up the truth? Have you ever thought how many children would have died and how many families left in heart-wrenching pain?

Falun Dafa is cultivation practice. You may not be able to even understand what Fa- Recitification is or what the Fa is. You may think these are all made up. You may think its a good thing to spend all day attacking buddhahood cultivators... You may think that the law of karma is a joke.. but reality has nothing to do with what you start thinking or stop thinking.. every person has to suffer the consequences of his own actions.

No matter however much you lie the moment a good person reads the Fa or listens to the lectures he knows it is something profound. Even by just looking at the photo of a practitioner in meditation he is able to sense the goodness and compassion.

Dilip rajeev 10:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Dilip rajeev Cultivate the truth is what you claim but concealing the truth is what you do. Being deceptive is just one of the many problems with the Falun Gong.  This cult had cheated money from millions of Chinese people and killed fourteen hundred of them.  It systematically suppressed its critics’ free speech and even threatened the society with social disturbance.  The Falun Gong is a fraud and its ban a just action to protect people’s rights, social stability and lives.  The majority of Chinese in and outside of China support the ban!  And they are happy for ex-practitioners who are now living a normal life free from the manipulation and exploitation of Master Li.  --Samuel Luo 05:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "To remind you, we are trying to write some text for the introduction which covers both Li and the Dafa's exclusive role in salvation combined with Fa-rectification." No, Tomanda. We're trying to agree on a couple sentences about the Fa-Rectification in the intro. There was never any agreement to talk about Li's exclusivity as a savior in the intro or that this should be related to the Fa-Rectification content. As for Mr. Li being just a man, Shakyamuni also said that he was just a man (this statement is quite well-known), but he walked on water, healed the ill, and performed many more miracles like these. Was he contradicting himself too? Just because you think something is contradictory doesn't mean it really is. If you try to think about in what ways these kinds of statements could possibly not be contradictory and coexist you might come to some new understandings or at least broaden your perspective. Mcconn 16:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You are still both fundamentally dishonest. Certain branches of Christianity have as their doctrine the idea that Jesus Christ was both human (if not, how could his suffering on the cross mattered?) and divine (if not, how could he offer salvation?)  Your dishonesty is in not saying something similar for Li. Instead, you keep accusing me of attacking him by quoting his words.  The honest response would be to say: yes, Li has said all these things, we do believe them and they are important concepts in Falun Gong. But we believe his divine status and human status are not contradictory because, etc.  Why don't you propose your own wording to convey these concepts in a clear and concise fashion?  It's not my job to reconcile apparantly contradictory statements of Li, but by the same token it is outrageous for you to continue to deny that Li has made these statements and that they relate, directly, to an understanding of Falun Gong.


 * As to having compassion for Falun Gong practitioners...I most certainly do. However, I do not believe, for example, that 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners had their organs harvested while they were alive in the basement of a facility in China which doesn't even have a basement and is co-owned by a Malaysian organization.  When I say you guys have a big credibility problem, I mean it. --Tomananda 17:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Tom.... Sujiatun is not the only sites. Unfortunately, there are lot of sites. In China, a cosmetic surgeon can do kidney transplantation. So many things may not be imaginable by people like you and me. Also Sujiatun has a lot of underground facilities which you and me are not clear. Please do not be judgemental. Lives are precious. Please stay cool headed. Please be open-minded. Fnhddzs 05:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * By pointing out that there are other sites, you seem to be conceding that the Sujiatun story is not true. Please don't lecture me about valuing human life. Your tactic is quite obvious and amounts to a false argument: "You cannot criticize us because some of our members are being persecuted or tortured in China. If you do criticize us, you do not value human life." This argument is total bull, and also insulting to me as a caring person.  Even if some of the claims of torture that the Falun Gong makes are true, the fact that others appear to be fabricated still needs to be pointed out.  At what point do people stop believing in your claims all together?  That's what's at issue here...your credibility as a group.  --Tomananda 17:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We are still waiting for your comments on the Kilgour and Matas report. This issue is extremely serious. Kilgour is a former crown prosecutor and a former Secretary of State. I'd like to see you dispute his viewpoint.


 * In addition, criticism of Falun Gong doesn't mean approval of persecution. At least Samuel Luo has explicitly stated that he approves of it. Do you think it helps "your credibility as a group"? ---Olaf Stephanos 18:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And I am still waiting for your comments to explain the absence of any public recognition of Dr. Lili Feng. You guys are so good at changing topics!  I point out that one particular report about 6,000 live organ harvestings in Sujiatum is not credible and you respond by saying, well why don't you read this other report from Canada instead and tell us what you think.  Let's make a deal!  I will read the Canadian report and respond with my honest opinions about what it says, providing you give me an honest answer to why the Falun Gong has not acknowledged the life and death of Dr. Lili Feng in the public sphere. Olaf, if you check in an earlier section above you will see that I've written a response to your allegations that I am cynically using Dr. Feng's death to make points against the Falun Gong.  --Tomananda 23:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * PS: In responding to my question about Falun Gong's public silence concerning Lili Feng's death, you need to cite something more than just an appeal to a practitioner's privacy. I do not expect any explanation whatsover concerning the cause of Lili Feng's death, but only an acknowledgment that she has died.  Surely that's the least her family can expect. I consider this to be a common decency that cuts across all religious ideologies and am frankly astounded that this has not been done.  One is used to seeing the accounts of practitioner deaths in China on Clearwisdom and other Falun Gong sites, why doesn't the same rule apply for the death of a practitioner who lived here in the United States?  Why the double standard?  --Tomananda 23:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Olaf Stephanos I do not support any persecution or torture, what I support is the ban of the Falun Gong which stopped this cult from deceiving and hurting more people. --Samuel Luo 00:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the discrediting of the Sujiatun allegations, I already mentioned how sketchy the US embassy officials tour was. After the being lead through the hospital by the hand, a U.S. embassy official said, "We did not find evidence showing this hospital's function exceeds that of a typical hospital." But the U.S. embassy official visited the hospital several weeks after the the crimes at the Sujiatun Concentration Camp were exposed, and the official on tour was accompanied by the hospital's leadership. Think about it: let's say a murderer kills someone, then he cleans up the crime site and disposes of the evidence. Later, the killer takes people to view the site to prove his innocence. Of course people will not get to see any evidence. In the amount of time the CCP had between the surfacing of the allegations and the show tour, they could cover up anything. Moreover, the surgical equipment used to remove Falun Gong practitioners' organs is not different from ordinary surgical equipment; how could a visitor tell whether this equipment had been used to remove organs or not? The official did not find evidence. This merely means the official did not see an organ harvesting procedures during that particular visit, but that does not prove that "the organ harvesting from living Falun Gong practitioners in secret concentration camps" never happened. If the CCP had nothing to hide then they wouldn't be so dodgy, and they would allow an independant investigation free from their control, but they won't. And instead they put our weak statements with empty accusations and twist the facts. You can take a look at some Canadian practitioners' response to the embassy's statement here --Mcconn 17:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you are under estimating the ability American officials. Frankly, between the words of US officials and the words of Falun Gong practitioners I rather believe these officials.  Master Li and some Falun Gong practitioners claim to have a third eye and possess the supernormal ability of Clairvoyance which allows them to see things tens of thousands of miles away.   Did you guys find out about this Organ Harvesting atrocity with this supernormal ability?  I am just curious.    --Samuel Luo 21:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope the official mediator comes soon, lets see if you dare to post your sarcastic little posts in front of him.--Andres18 20:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Request for mediation
Greetings everyone. Tomorrow is the day I will submit a request to the mediation committee for a formal mediator for us. These people have done this sort of thing before, and will hopefully help us get towards an article we all (or most of us) agree with. As in Requests for mediation, the request we submit must be neutral and simply point out that we have a problem, not what one or another group of editors believe the problem(s) is (or are). Please sign below (put a # sign before your signature) if you think this is a good idea. Thanks! --Fire Star 火星 12:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) Not only is this a good idea, I think it is the only way we will make any progress in this article.--Tomananda 17:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support --Yueyuen 23:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support --Mr.He 23:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes --  Миборовский  04:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Yes. And Firestar, could you reverse the Falun Gong article to this 22:28, 6 July 2006 version?  This version was the one that caused the edit conflict.  The version in place right now was modified by you under the request of ConventD.  Since we are requesting a formal mediation the article really should be restored to the earlier state, thanks --Samuel Luo 04:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do you say this? The version in place right now reflects much better the consensus we had reached over that content. Mcconn 07:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no poll or consensus on this version. It was CovenantD’s decision. He was suppose to provide two passages, one sums up the words of practitioners and the other addresses the concern of other editors.  Since he left without the second passage to provide a balance, the article  should be reversed. . --Yueyuen 19:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The protected version isn't an endorsed version. We are (hopefully) very close to getting a new mediator, so we should wait and let that person decide. If a mediator doesn't materialise, then we go to the Arbcom for a binding settlement. --Fire Star 火星 20:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) Yes. I won't mind it. We will see. Fnhddzs 05:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Support. Mcconn 07:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Support. Dilip rajeev 08:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Support -- Mediator. Boy, are these clowns going to be clubbed like a seal. I am going to dump out all of the books/articles from the Chinese media.  How do you want the upload? Thanks Chris Cj cawley 10:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Support. --Olaf Stephanos 17:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) Support.Kent8888 21:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) Support. Zealots and fanatics often let their emotions get the best of them.  Arguments based on Zealotry and fanaticism only make more problems.  Let cool heads prevail. --Otomo 20:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Requests for mediation/Falun Gong
It is official, please go to Requests for mediation/Falun Gong to agree or disagree with our mediation request. The article has been locked since 27 June, so IMO this is the best way forward. Simple agreement or disagreement is all that is necessary, any comments will be removed. --Fire Star 火星 14:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, please do not edit the request page other than to indicate agreement or disagreement. Any other edits will just be changed back. Just the issue that the article has been locked for over a month alone should get the ball rolling. The time to state our cases is when the mediator is listening, right now we are just counting heads. --Fire Star 火星 19:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We are less than 24 hrs. into the 7 day sign up period and we already have half the people we need to agree. This is good. --Fire Star 火星 03:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Two days left, Dilip rajeev, Omido and HResearcher have not yet responded to the request.
 * Dilip rajeev: Informed 14:07, 8 August 2006; last active 14:19, 13 August 2006.
 * Omido: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 14:12, 3 August 2006.
 * HResearcher: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 06:11, 7 August 2006.
 * I think it's safe to say that Dilip rajeev does not want any mediation attempt. -- Миборо в ский 04:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Woo
Why do you attack Falun Gong? Is it that, the last thing you want to see for the world is peace, meditation, healthy living, and improved moral standards?

Falun Dafa teaches kindess, Zhen-Shan-Ren, and there are strict xinxing (moral character) requirements. Suicide is forbidden.

The persecution against Falun Gong is not even a very important issue...everyone the world over knows it is true, it cannot be denied that Falun Dafa practitioners are suffering in China. What we are trying to clear from your brain and your thinking is that Falun Dafa practitioners don't kill themselves, and Falun Dafa is not harmful. It doesn't make people go crazy, it only stabalizes people, from the very core of their being. I have undergone a great change since I have begun to study Dafa... I even used to take drugs, but now I just simply strive to work hard, be kind, and improve my xinxing no matter the situation I encounter.

Samuel Woo,

Why would you believe in the wicked CCP ? They have killed 80 million Chinese people over their history... i.e. Cultural Revolution, Gang of Four, Persecution of Intellectuals, 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Buddhists, Persecution of Falun Gong. Can you deny that these things did not happen throughout history? So why would you believe in the CCP today? They have always lied, then tried to reform, kill, promote athieism and violence, lie some more, and then try to win back the public through shameful actions. Did you even know that 12 Million Chinese People have quit the CCP? It is a dying beast...20,000 more Chinese people quit everyday. The CCP is afraid of Falun Gong and the Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party. Have you read this article yet? It won a Pulitzer Prize for journalism. I suggest you read it soon.

http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/4/12/13/n746020.htm

The CCP has always been simply a gang of liars and crooks. Why are all the billionaires in China CCP officials, while everyone else is dirt poor? The tide is turning in the world and on the CCP... You should re-examine your thinking and take a look at the facts more carefully. Don't get lost in wordgames, look at the big picture.

The Heavens Eliminate the CCP.

Falun Dafa Hao! -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.209.156.180 (talk • contribs)

I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who does not use a real name especially after that rant.

As for the CCP, you mean that they are just like most governments. How many people has the U.S. killed? For both good & bad reasons. You can start with our own civil war & go from there.

You are not going to silence Sam. You are not going to silence me either. Also, there are more & more of us each day.

Please explain to me what good FLG has done? Have they built a hospital? - No. (We should add a section for that) Donated to anything other than their own cause? - No. Destroyed families? - Yes. Caused the deaths of thousands? - Yes. Any rational person would get the idea.

I am in the middle of a multi year divorce and I still find money to help people in need. I have donated to The Tsunami, 9/11, Katrina, St Jude, Kid's school, etc. This is after all of the legal bills.

They preach self & death. Please explain to me how any of that is "good". Truth - their version of it. Compassion - Do this or die. Forebearance - I am going to hound you until you convert. No matter how stupid I think you are.

As for the CCP, their economy is booming, 1 million are being taken out of poverty a month, etc. You can think evil destructive thoughts all you want, but with numbers like those they are not going anywhere anytime soon. Russia fell because the economy collapsed. Communism was an afterthought.

Cj cawley 11:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Cj cawley
You said:

"I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who does not use a real name especially after that rant."

Response:

My name wasn't on the last post because I did not know how to put it.

You said:

"As for the CCP, you mean that they are just like most governments. How many people has the U.S. killed?  For both good & bad reasons.  You can start with our own civil war & go from there."

Response:

The US government has never killed 80 million innocent people. In fact though, I really could care less what kind of government China has, or what kind of government the US has, just as long as they are not killing innocent lives. People die in wars, this is a natural state of affairs that exists in the Cosmos. In fact, Master Li has said that wars come about as a result of Cosmic phenomenon, and are for the purpose of man repaying karmic debts. But the CCP is and has been for many years murdering innocent people without any just cause.

You said:

You are not going to silence Sam. You are not going to silence me either. Also, there are more & more of us each day.

Response:

If you think you are starting some kind of movement to squash Falun Gong, you are in trouble, and are on the wrong side of the sword.

I am not trying to silence anyone, I encourage you to speak.

I am trying to remove the poison and propaganda from your head that the evil CCP has implanted into it. The CCP has lied to you, and all of China, and all of the world. What kind of cause do you think you are signing up for, "there are more and more of us each day." You are traveling completely backwards if you continue with this train of thinking. The whole world loves Falun Gong. The US govnerment has awarded Falun Gong thousands of awards. My hometown of Lafayette, Louisiana in the United States has given Falun Dafa a proclamtion of award and has condemned the persecution in China. What are you talking about? I am not trying to silence anyone.

You said:

"Please explain to me what good FLG has done? Have they built a hospital? - No. (We should add a section for that) Donated to anything other than their own cause? - No. Destroyed families? - Yes. Caused the deaths of thousands? - Yes. Any rational person would get the idea."

Response:

Falun Dafa has not built hospitals or donated to other such causes because these are all actions filled with human intention. True cultivators of Falun Dafa seek nothing in the mortal realm, only consumation of their being.

Falun Dafa has destroyed no families, only the CCP has done such evils. Can you show me proof that Falun Dafa has caused thousands to die?

I instead can show you proof that millions of people have in fact obtained the Fa and cured themselves for terminal diseases. I can also show you undeniable proof of the persecution in China, and of people being tortured to death in China.

Any proof you can offer that Falun Dafa is bad will be for sure lies from the Chinese Communist Party. Why do you believe in the CCP? Didn't you just hear what I said? They have murdered 80 million Chinese people. Can you deny the Cultural Revolution, a movement by the CCP? Can you deny the Gang of Four? Can you deny the 1989 Tiananmen Square Revolution?

Why do you ignore these movements?

These are the CCP's history!

These were all caused by the CCP and in the end millions of Chinese people were murdered. The CCP is gang of crooks and criminals. I have with my own mouth and body spoken to Falun Dafa practitioners who have suffered persecution by the CCP. There are lives hanging in the balance in China, and you want to spread lies about Falun Dafa? What is your problem?

Your speaking out against Falun Gong is stupid and pointless, Falun Gong is only good.

We do not seek to "do good" among human beings and donate to charities. Falun Dafa is cultivation practice for reaching consumation. You are obviously a pretty good ordinary person, you have donated to many charities, but in the end, your actions are all filled with human intention and amount to nothing but blessings for your future life as a human. Cultivators in Falun Dafa seek nothing but to reach consumation, moving beyond the three realms, accomplishing Fa-Rectification, and saving sentient beings.

You said:

"They preach self & death. Please explain to me how any of that is "good".  Truth - their version of it.  Compassion - Do this or die.  Forebearance - I am going to hound you until you convert.  No matter how stupid I think you are.

Response:

What do you mean "Do this Or Die"? Master Li Hongzhi has forbidden suicide and murder.

Falun Dafa does not preach either, it is just a book. We do not have churches or sermons. I am not preaching to you, I am helping you to understand the Buddha Fa.

Falun Dafa teaches selflessness and altruism, and the protection and cherishment of sentient beings.

Also, I do not care if you practice Falun Dafa. I am not trying to convert you. Such a concept does not exist in Falun Dafa, you can only be assimilated to the Fa, there is not even a tangible organization for you to join, how could I convert you.

I do not care if you learn. I wish for you to, it is what's is best for your future, but ultimately, it does not matter to me.

Cultivation is a personal matter. I am not dying here to have you cultivate... I want you to know the truth about this practice so you can be saved and make into the future.

You said:

"As for the CCP, their economy is booming, 1 million are being taken out of poverty a month, etc. You can think evil destructive thoughts all you want, but with numbers like those they are not going anywhere anytime soon.  Russia fell because the economy collapsed.  Communism was an afterthought."

Response:

The CCP's economy is not booming. China's economy is booming. This has nothing to do with the CCP. The CCP is the most evil thing in the Cosmos and it is surely to be eliminated. I do not have evil destructive thoughts. I am not even trying to eliminate the CCP. The CCP has chosen elimination. The Chinese people are turning against the CCP, because they are learning the true history of it's past, and the truth about the persecution of Falun Dafa.

Daniel

Chinese democracy movement and Falun Gong
Let me introduce myself. I am a long time practitioner of Buddhism, and am well read in Asian classics. I read Mr. Li’s book when it was first published in 1999 and since then have attended an “Fa” conference as well as many study groups and exorcize meetings. I feel qualified to make a few statements.

Many of the things Mr. Li says it not all that different from what controversial Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches say about being Gods and rectification of the Cosmic Law, curing illnesses, and saving the world. Though, one has to read these other books, listen to their lectures and even attend their meetings to know this. Since the bulk of Dafa practitioners are from mainland China and only know the Communist sponsored Buddhism, it therefore is not reasonable for the Dafa students to know these things or be aware that others have said the same as Mr. Li says.

Like the radical Muslims or controversial Tibetan groups, the majority of disciples are drawn to the group and teacher primarily because the political views and direction the teacher and the teachings state. It is apparent that Mr. Li is a critic of Communist philosophies and by brining up pre-communist cultural beliefs (local Chinese religion and superstitions) he was “bucking the system” so to speak.

The pro-democracy movement that was crushed by the Communist in 1989 just went underground till and emerged in the Chi-Gong movements, Falun Gong was only just one of many. The largest Chi-gong school was Zhong Gong, a school headed by Hong Bao Zhang, where they had eight postures of exercise, over 100 centered scattered all over china and thousands of small businesses that the disciples worked in. Like Falun Gong, Zhong gong supported a pre-communist political thought and offered a haven for the pro-democracy movement. Many of the criticisms Mr. Li has of Chi-Gong are clearly aimed at Zhong Gong. The use of these criticisms and malicious innuendo towards rival teachers is very traditional in Chinese martial arts. Like Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as the numerous other Gong Schools made claims to cure illnesses, achieve mystical powers and heavenly rewards. Though Falun Gong tends to use an “end of days” approach to imply immediacy and urgency to the teachings.

In 1999 when the Communist banned Falun Gong, Zhong Gong as well as many other schools where shut down as well. This is what is know by Falun Gong as “The persecution” In fact Zhong Gong as well as Falun Gong and so many other Chi Gong schools lost all of their centers and business to the Chinese Communist. The real purpose of the banishment may have been a land and business grab by Chinese communist officials as well as stamping out what they saw as a threat by the pro-democracy movement.

Today from what I see of Falun Gong is mostly a political movement to criticize the CCP in China and to bring the worlds anger upon them for the gross human rights abuses that occur there. Most of the Falun Gong disciples are involved with some sort of political work that they term “clarifying the truth”. Staffers in Washington DC have stated that the Falun Gong lobbyist are effective and well organized. The newspaper “The Epoch Times” has done well to publish the Falun Gong propaganda when the main stream media ignored them and created NTDTV as a way to beam the political message to China. The recent “Nine commentaries of the communist party” that just about all Falun Gong members hold up right next to the book “Zhuan Falun” clearly indicate that the movement is primarily political based using the spiritual foundations outlined by Mr. Li to give support and encouragement to the students to continue their political work. Even recently Mr. Li stated that just doing the exercises and meditations are not enough, one must “clarify the truth” and that is code for being involved in the groups political missions.

Many in the group flatly deny being political. Though they use a very narrow definition of what being political is. It is sort of a word game, one that I find childish and the sort of games you find scoundrels playing at.

Now as with all political movements and organizations that have a top down structure of power, where the corrupt and self-serving are attracted. Falun Gong is no exception to this problem, even in several lectures Mr. Li states that the bad actions of a few individuals has caused problems for him to no ends. Falun Gong even did have its schism in 1998 with Ms Wang in Hong Kong who declared that the Cosmic spirit left Mr. Li and came to her. The Hong Kong group was irreparable split and from what I know has not reformed to this day. I suspect such issues are still occurring and there are individuals who exploit the Falun Gong members as a marketing base, for free labor, and for their own gain, all in the name of “clarifying the truth”.

Today, I see Falun Gong struggles with an identity crises. Is it a political group or spiritual group? This issue tears at the hearts of many disciples leading many in to a mental catharsis, and a spiritual crisis. Some leave Falun Gong, others just stay at the fringes of the group not daring go further in.

Lastly, as Falun Gong does attract the corrupted because of its power scheme, it also attracts the desperate. Folks who are terminally ill or who suffering from chronic menial illnesses will find their way to such groups like Falun Gong. The terminally ill are desperate to do anything to live, and those who are mentally ill do desperate things (think Heavens Gate, Charles Manson, Jim Jones). Though, you will be hard pressed to find any group that lacks these types of people because these groups are comprised of humans with all the human flaws and conditions we have.

As for the things Mr. Li says and his claims. It is not at all uncharacteristic of those who engage in Chinese folk spirituality to do such. If you where to read the stories of some Tibetan Lamas and Rinpoches, you find that they embellish and fabricate their histories as well, even to degrees of absurdity. You also see this in Daoism with the embellishment of Lau Tzu and teachers after him as well as in Buddhism, where Ch’an teachers outright fabricate their lineage, and in some cases forge documents and create entire make believe temples, teachers and even Sutras.

As for those who fanatically defend Mr. Li, they do so for their own selfish reasons and purposes. Already Mr. Li has said that many of his disciples cannot accept criticism and that is a problem they have to deal with. He also told them that he can deal with his critics himself. Never the less, people will defend someone or something only for their own self engrandizement, sense of purpose and of course crushing their own doubts. It is easier to attack others doubts than to deal with your own and that is the sort of fanaticism that beings troubles to no end.

Ill continue watching this movement and see where it goes. I suspect Falun Gong/Falun Dafa will eventually pull itself apart as the purposes and goals become to contradictory to maintain under one house. --Otomo 19:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Zhong Gong http://www.apologeticsindex.org/z02.html --Otomo 19:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Edited to add links to zhong gong --Otomo 21:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand you are entitled to your opinion wether or not you have a vast experience in the field of Qigong. But lately posts like these become a little bit tiresome for editors because, as you may know, we all have our own opinions regarding Falun Gong and exposing it like this tends to create some controversy among the group since, for example, my opinion is very different from yours so if i posted a reply to your post, we would deviate from the task at hand which is to try and work on the article, and this is what usually happens, and its the reason why we need official mediation.--Andres18 20:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Donot Slander a true cultivation way
You apparently are just repeating CCP's tales... You dont seem to have the slightest clue on what you are talking about.

There are reasons why Falun Dafa cultivators clarify the truth about the persecution to people and that has nothing to do with "politics". When someone carries bad thoughts against a true teaching and slanders the Dharma isnt he accumulating terrible sins? Where is his being heading for?

Falun Dafa prcatitioners are letting the world know of the terrible and most inhumane persecution innocent people are facing in China.. hoping to bring an end to these unspeakable atrocities.. and you label that "politics"?

People like you think Buddhist scriptures are something for intellectual studies... you study it like some kind of philosophy and then you are "qualified" for whatever..

The Dalai Lama has said Falun Dafa is "very good".

Gautama Buddha himself prophesized that during this period of time the Great Law (Da Fa ) would spread far and wide.. A Sutra refers to the teaching by the name "the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )" and "the Thus Come One's sudden teaching"

''Alas! In the evil time''

Of the Dharma-Ending Age,

Living beings' blessings are slight,

It is difficult to train them.

Far indeed from the sages of the past!

Their deviant views are deep.

Demons are strong, the Dharma is weak;

Many are the wrongs and injuries.

Hearing the door of the Thus Come One's sudden teaching,

They hate not destroying it as they would smash a tile.

The doing is in the mind;

The body suffers the calamities.

There's no need for unjust accusations that shift the blame to others.

If you don't wish to invite the karma of the unintermittent [hell],

Do not slander the Thus Come One's Proper Wheel of Dharma.( Fa Lun )

- Gautama Buddha

(SE 62-63)

It is only natural that people who consider themselves "qualified" by reading some scriptures as if they were some made-up specualtive philosophy appear during in this period of time.. ... I request you to read this Sutra ..


 * Thus I have heard. At one time the Buddha was in the state of Kushinagara. The Tathagata was to enter Nirvana within three months and the bhikshus and Bodhisattvas as well as the great multitude of beings had come to the Buddha to pay homage to the Buddha and to bow in reverence. The World Honored One was tranquil and silent. He spoke not a word and his light did not appear. Worthy Ananda bowed and asked the Buddha, "O Bhagavan, heretofore whenever you spoke the Dharma, awesome light would naturally appear. Yet today among this great assembly there is no such radiance. There must be a good cause for this, and we wish to hear the Bhagavan's explanation."


 * The Buddha remained silent and did not answer until the request had been repeated three times. He then told Ananda, "After I enter Nirvana, when the Dharma is about to perish, during the Evil Age of the Five Turbidities (see Five Turbidities), the way of demons will flourish. Demonic beings will become Shramanas they will pervert and destroy my teachings.... They will lack compassion and they will bear hatred and jealousy even among themselves.


 * "At that time there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will reverently and diligently cultivate immaculate virtue. They will be respected by all people and their teachings will be fair and egalitarian. These cultivators of the Fa will take pity on the poor, they will be mindful of the aged, and they will save and give counsel to those people they find in difficult circumstances. They will at all times exhort others to worship and to protect the sutras and images of the Buddha. They will do meritorious deeds, be resolute and kind and never harm others. They will forsake their bodies for others' benefit. They will hold no great regard for themselves but will be patient, yielding, humane, and peaceful.


 * "If such people exist, the hordes of demonic bhikshus will be jealous of them. The demons will harass them, slander and defame them, expel them from their midst and degrade them. They will ostracize the good monks from the monastic community. Thereafter these demons will not cultivate the Way-virtue. Their temples and monastic buildings will be vacant and overgrown with weeds. For want of care and maintenance their Way-places will drift into ruin and oblivion. The demonic bhikshus will only be greedy for wealth and will amass great heaps of goods. They will refuse to distribute any of it or to use it to gain blessings and virtue.

. ..


 * "When the lives of these demonic bhikshus come to an end their essential spirits will fall into the avici hells. Having committed the five evil sins, they will suffer successive rebirths as hungry ghosts and as animals. They will know all such states of woe as they pass on through aeons as numerous as sands on the banks of the Ganges River. When their offenses are accounted for they will be reborn in a border land where the Triple Jewel is unknown.


 * "When the Dharma is about to disappear, women will become vigorous and will at all times do deeds of virtue. Men will grow lax and will no longer speak the Dharma. ( According to the Dao school and The Book of Changes this precisely is the period of reversal of yin and yang )


 * Those genuine Shramanas they see will be looked upon as dung and no one will have faith in them. When the Dharma is about to perish, all the gods will begin to weep. Rivers will dry up and the five grains will not ripen. Epidemic diseases will frequently take the lives of multitudes of people. The masses will toil and suffer while the local officials will plot and scheme. No one will adhere to principles. Instead, all people will be ever more numerous like the sands of the ocean-bed. Good persons will be hard to find; at most there will be one or two. As the aeon comes to a close, the revolution of the sun and the moon will grow short and the lifespan of people will decrease. Their hair will turn white at the age of forty years. Because of excessive licentious behavior they will quickly exhaust their seminal fluids and will die at a young age, usually before sixty years. As the life-span of males decreases, that of females will increase to seventy, eighty, ninety, or one hundred years.


 * "The great rivers will rise up in disharmony with their natural cycles, yet people will not take notice or feel concern. Extremes of climate will soon be taken for granted. . ..


 * "Then there will be Bodhisattvas, Pratyekabuddhas, and Arhats who will gather together in an unprecedented assembly because they will have all been harried and pursued by hordes of demons. They will no longer dwell in the assemblies, but the Three Vehicles will retreat to the wilderness. In a tranquil place, they will find shelter, happiness, and long life. Gods will protect them and the moon will shine down upon them. The Three Vehicles will have an opportunity to meet together and the way will flourish. However, within fifty-two years the and the, the Standing Buddha Samadhi, will be the first to change and then disappear. The twelve divisions of the canon will gradually follow until they vanish completely, never to appear again. Its words and texts will be totally unknown ever after. The precept sashes of Shramanas will turn white of themselves. When my Dharma disappears, it will be just like an oil lamp which flares brightly for an instant just before it goes out. So too, will the Dharma flare and die. After this time it is difficult to speak with certainty of what will follow.

.I al. .


 * Worthy Ananda addressed the Buddha, "What should we call this Sutra and how shall we uphold it?"


 * The Buddha said, "Ananda, this Sutra is called . Tell everyone to propagate it widely; the merit of your actions will be measureless, beyond reckoning."


 * When the fourfold assembly of disciples heard this Sutra, they grieved and wept. Each of them resolved to attain the true Path of the Supreme Sage. Then bowing to the Buddha, they withdrew.

(SS I xiv-xvi)

202.83.32.90 04:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC) I cannot take a unsigned post with any credibility or even serious. I have never heard any Dafa practitioner say that the Dalai Lama has endorsed the exercises or anything Mr. Li says. If that was the case, I am sure I would have heard about this. You may want to rethink your proclamation on that issue.

As I stated, only scoundrels play “word games”. I am deeply sorry that the path of Falun Dafa lead you to this position. You may want to rethink your words, perhaps even read some of the stuff Mr. Li says about "Bad people doing bad things in his name". --Otomo 20:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think that as a practitioner of Buddhism you would have enough benevolence as to not insult someone else and call him "scoundrel" but im no one to judge you so ill stop right here, we can all make mistakes at any time but i do not think it was necessary for you to reffer to him like that even if he is really what you say he is. It may make other people take you less seriously seeing how you dont have proper respect for other users. In Falun Dafa people make their own way, everyones condition and situation is different. If you ask me what i think about this message i would say its definetly not necessary for the creation of the article, in fact, i didnt take the time to read it completely because i didnt see it going anywhere, i think the user who wrote this post should post what he has to say in a clear and resumed way. Sutras and other scriptures are interpreted differently by many people so i personally do not think it is appropriate to post them. Id like to know where are we going now with this mediation request, are we suppossed to wait or can we do some edits in the mean time?.--Andres18 20:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Question of Origins
In the main article in subsection “Origins”, it is stated:

Falun Gong (Falun Dafa) was introduced to the public by Li Hongzhi on May 13, 1992 in Changchun, China.(1) According to Li, Falun Gong is an advanced cultivation system in the "Buddha School" which, in the past, was handed down to chosen disciples and served as an intensive cultivation method that required practitioners with extremely high “Xinxing” (mind-nature; heart-nature; character) or “great inborn quality.”(2) Li taught the practice for three years and since then Falun Gong has also been promoted by practitioners themselves voluntarily.(3) Falun Gong quickly grew in popularity in China, and starting in 1996 Li has introduced the practice to other countries.(4)

I like to challage this statement. As by the points I will list:

1. Falun Gong (AKA Falun Dafa) is an offshoot of Zhong Gong, a ChiGong school in china that existed well prior or Mr. Li emergance on the scene, that uses eight positions in its exersizes, also claims to heal the sick and pronounces itself as the only true spiritual law.

2. Mr. Li was a Communist Army band member then a grain store clerk. Given that Mr. Li school of Chi Gong is so simular to Zhong Gong, it is likely Mr. Li was a casual student of Zhong Gong for a while till he broke off on his own group, hence his criticism on Modern Chi Gong.

3. This section does not give any time period of when he was to practice or who the are the diciples are. I suggest to strike this line completely since it cannot be supported.

4. This is very questionable because Zhong Gong grew in that period of time as well as many other chi gong schools. I think the line needs to be qualified with to reflect that Falun Gong was not the only school growing.

--Otomo 21:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To begin with, would you provide a few sources for your allegations, as no original research will do. Could you also tell how the Falun Gong movements resemble those of Zhong Gong? If Falun Gong is just a spinoff of Zhong Gong, would you also elaborate a little on why Falun Gong received so many awards from the qigong experts and other authorities?


 * By the way, according to apologeticsindex.org, Zhong Gong was also founded in the beginning of the 1990s. I haven't read that much about it, but I have an impression that its teacher was bragging about showcasing supernormal abilities and such, while Li Hongzhi has stated that these things are not for public performances. Why do a lot of qigong masters put so much emphasis on commenting on this issue? I believe that the existence of supernatural abilities was verified in China by empirical science during the 1980s, and acknowledging them was essentially the dividing line between two scientific schools of qigong studies.


 * You know, qigong is not just some arbitrary waving of hands where any exercise will do. Whatever you think of Falun Gong, recognizing qigong as a valid field of human body research - not some imaginary game - is the least you can do. If you really want to dispute Falun Gong's way of putting it, you'd better provide a theory for why it works in the first place. Maybe you want to provide a naturalistic, profane explanation. Only then we have reached the paradigmatic line of demarcation. ---Olaf Stephanos 08:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Falun Gong resembles Zhong Gong in many ways, but lets look at one aspect of it, "The Exersize". Zhong Gong uses eight postures in its exersize while Falun Gong uses five postures.  I think it is worth noting on the Falun Gong page that is does resemble Zhong Gong, a popular school in china that had over 100 practice centers and thousands of businesses.  I think to fail to mention that moves away from the NPOS and does not serve the truth to the readers as where Falun Gong came from.


 * The point of all this discussion to to get to the truth, present Falun Gong in a NPOS position with NO ORIGIONAL RESEARCH or ARTICALS OF FAITH as facts. The origions of Falun Gong, its history and its current mission on the wikipedia pages tend to be murky and highly edited in my opinions.  I think it is fine to present Falun Gong as a Chigong school, but I think some of the statements made about it are incorrect, quotes are taken out of context or even stolen about a different chigong school.  For example the quote of 100 million practitioners was about the number of all chigong practitioners in china, not just Falun gong.  It is these sorts of things that tarnish the character of Falun Gong and just brings up questions about integrity about Falun Gong is.


 * I also think it is worth remembering that these pages are is not a debate on Falun Gong, but rather how to present Falun Gong on Wikipedia.
 * --Otomo 18:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You avoided all my questions. Saying that Zhong Gong has eight exercises, while Falun Gong has five, doesn't tell anything about their similarity or differences. No original research means that you have to find verifiable sources for your claims; please give us a reference to an article or a study about the similarities of Falun Gong and Zhong Gong.


 * The quote about 70 (to 100) million Falun Gong practitioners is from China's State Sports Administration, as reported by the New York Times before the persecution began. Afterwards, CCP has been downplaying Falun Gong's significance in the Chinese society. I also remember reading that there are approximately 200 million qigong practitioners in China, so it is possible that one third to a half of all Chinese qigong practitioners used to practice Falun Gong in the end of the 1990s.


 * I agree that the article sucks right now, but that's why we are looking for a mediator. ---Olaf Stephanos 19:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Give me a break Olaf, the Chinese government has never said anything about the Falun Gong having 70 million members in China. That figure was given by a practitioner working in a governmental organization.  The Falun Gong has also claimed to have 30 million members outside of China; where are they?  --Samuel Luo 20:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Give me a source, Samuel, indicating that the figure was given by a practitioner working in a governmental organization. It's funny you've never done that. Hmm... or could it be only you who says this?


 * I also remember seeing some websites say that there are 100 million practitioners "worldwide". They are probably using the higher estimate, "almost 100 million", for China, but personally I think this information is outdated. "The Falun Gong", "members"... it's all your misleading centralist discourse. I agree that the individuals who have published such figures should pay more attention to the post-1999 reduction in numbers (because of the persecution). Of course, none of us knows how many practitioners there are. Nobody I've met has ever talked about 30 million outside of China. ---Olaf Stephanos 03:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Origions dispute part 2
In the main article in subsection “Origins” second paragraph, it is stated:

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a Qigong master. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the Chinese version of his book, Zhuan Falun, before 1996, it is claimed that Li(1) was guided by more than 20 masters of both the Buddhist and Taoist cultivation ways since the age of four. Li’s first teacher introduced him to the cultivation of truth, compassion and forbearance (zhen, shan, ren). At age of eight, he acquired supernatural powers. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. The biography(2) also claimed Li has discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.[6]

I like to dispute the Origins, second Paragraph by the following points: (1) “it is claimed that Li” needs to be changed to “Mr. Li writes about himself” as it is stated now, it is not clear that Mr. Li himself is making these claims and that no third party is making them.

(2) please change “biography” to “autobiography” since “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” is in fact written by Mr. Li himself.

--Otomo 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, Otomo... sources please? The biography was not written by Mr. Li. Mcconn 06:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Two things
Why was my book deleted? It's a real situation with real people, not a case study. Also, we should add other similar cases. I know of at least one. There are probably more.

We should add a section about the FLG split. There should be articles about the woman in Hong Kong. I had forgotten about that and it's a good point.

Cj cawley 00:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In response to "Daniel"
I have not seen another website post deaths of people quite like www.clearwisdom.net. Death is not a good thing. The general theme is: They harmed Dafa & died a horrible death. Chapter & verse. Time & time again. We should also consider a section in the article for this. To be fair, we should include the deaths that the CCP has attributed to FLG.

Well, according to the ex, I have harmed Dafa. I survived 9/11, Flight 587 (crashed on both sides of the house - literally), etc.

172.161.252.202 22:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you identify yourself? It sounds like your ex wife is a Falun Gong practitioner, so you can possibly provide some addtitional insight into how the Falun Gong breaks up families. Practitioners deny this is the case, so your input might help.  --Tomananda 02:41, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No doubt he's the good ol' Cj cawley. ---Olaf Stephanos 09:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Sorry, I was not logged in. Thanks Olaf. Cj cawley 11:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Olaf: You never responded to my question in the Without Li the Cosmos Wouldn't Exist posting above. --Tomananda 06:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Tomananda, I've been really busy, and your message is worth time and devotion. I'll try to deal with it later this week. ---Olaf Stephanos 08:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

new photograph
I have a new photograph which I would like to add to the article when it becomes unprotected. – Kaihsu 20:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Another good idea
We should have the pictures of all deaths related to FLG. We can put the CCP material right next to the FLG material. That's also fair. This way, we can get a full body count. Truth, compassion & forebearance is probably up more than 3,000 by now. Cj cawley 10:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not Such a Good Idea
I do not know about all of you, but actually, I am very tired of talking about the persecution against Falun Gong, I am tired of reading www.clearwisdom.net reports of deaths, and I am tired of seeing pictures of Falun Gong practitioners tortured to death. It is good to expose the persecution and eliminate the evil, but who wants to see those pictures all the time anyway? All of those practitioners who are still being tortured in China simply have not been able to free themselves from the evils den. We should help them of course when possible, but it seems to me they are mostly just simply enduring the evil's persecution as far as I can tell. They need to step up with their righteous thoughts to escape the persecution. Master Li has even said that even some new practitioners have developed supernormal powers, they can use these to escape the evil's persecution.

As far as I know, that evil political party doesn't even have any material worth looking at. It made some videos, and then Falun Dafa practitioners ripped them apart with anaylsis and rational thinking, exposing all of the loopholes and lies.

Case in point, http://www.falsefire.com/index1.htm

Who has seen this video yet? The Tiananmen Square Self-Immolation against Falun Dafa was the biggest hoax of the century. It was like a bad April Fools joke.....

The False Fire video is full of fallacies and speculation. --Yenchin 05:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

A Question
What about if only users who are signed in can use this page, and if a user abuses this privilege, he would be reprimanded, possibly unable to edit other protected sites, or maybe banned? Jesus geek 16:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, to answer to your question, i believe a punishment such as banning or being reprimanded, just like you suggested, should be applied to posters who repeatedly break the Wikipedia code of conduct. For example, engaging in personal attacks (quoting directly from wikipedia):

"Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme"

Or also creating an environment of "incivility" by:

"Calling someone a liar, or accusing him/her of slander or libel. Even if true, such remarks tend to aggravate rather than resolve a dispute."

Which, even though its a petty example of how to create an environment of incivility, if you do it repeatedly and add a few posts here and there like "We dont need yor fancy answers" (reffering to FG editors). "How dishonest practitioners are!" Or calling someone a "scoundrel" or saying FG practitioners are "corrupted" and accusing them of "being deceptive". Also saying Falun Gong practitioners are "murderers", categorizing our arguments as "silly" and "false" "a rant" oh and also reffered to as "bull..." go figure. Then it becomes a rather significant matter. As you can see, there have been quite a few of those examples lately. What is even extremely ironic to the point of being sarcastic and maybe even a little funny is that after all this, they demand us to "refrain from personal attacks"...right.

Im not saying FG practitioners behaviour is perfect or anything, we also make our mistakes of course, but there is a very significant difference between both behaviours, at least we dont go around posting all the time calling them liars, or "people who conceal the truth" and dismissing their own views and opinions because "They are FG practitioners" and "FG has a big credibility problem" and cataloguing it as pure lies. Even though there are two different parties involved in the making of this article, there should be some neutrality, going to the extreme (being extreme pro-FG or extreme anti-FG) isnt helping at all. If we FG editors believe a critic is not reporting Mr. Li's quotes appropriately and we all agree on this, then it is our point of view and our words should be listened too. Then after we give them our opinion of what they propose, if they listen to our point of view then we will definetly consider reaching an agreement through dialogue. The same goes the other way.

I understand any of the editors can get frustrated, wether the critics or the FG editors, but that doesnt mean almost each and every of the critics replies need to reflect that frustration through a direct offense against the other party. If you notice the environment we have right now on the talk page, it is all about "Fighting the evil cult of FG". There is no respect among the editors and this way we cannot work on the talk page, and this is the real reason why we urgently need an official mediator. But i strongly suggest we modify our behavior wether the mediator arrives or not so that we can make at least as much progress as we can on the article before or until he/she arrives.

If we respect each others point of views and arguments whenever we disagree with them and discuss it while keeping a cool head im sure we can all reach to an agreement on anything and perhaps there wont even be a need for official mediation, but to me, right now, considering the situation, id say it seems rather utopic. So then is banning or reprimanding the only solution to this problem if the official mediator doesnt arrive?.--Andres18 06:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Last call for Requests for mediation/Falun Gong!!!
We are still missing one or two of the named involved editors for Requests for mediation/Falun Gong. If any of you know the missing people, please contact them. If everyone isn't on board, the request will be automatically rejected! They have to sign by tomorrow or we start over again. The page could be locked for a much longer time as a result. --Fire Star 火星 16:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Copy-pasted from above:
 * Two days left, Dilip rajeev, Omido and HResearcher have not yet responded to the request.
 * Dilip rajeev: Informed 14:07, 8 August 2006; last active 14:19, 13 August 2006.
 * Omido: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 14:12, 3 August 2006.
 * HResearcher: Informed 14:18, 8 August 2006; last active 06:11, 7 August 2006.
 * I think it's safe to say that Dilip rajeev does not want any mediation attempt. And I think, that you made a mistake by adding any Tom Dick and Harry to the list of involved people.
 * -- Миборо в ский 18:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Dilip has signed up. But I doubt the other two would. -- Миборо в ский 19:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the field was so confused that I only picked the people who were active on the talk page for the week before, which is how Olaf got missed. I agree the next request should be a lot smaller. --Fire Star 火星 20:08, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to not make our own conclusions. Article about Falun Gong can be really a short one. If the article should be just about what the Falun Gong is, then quote just some apparent things (like "have 5 exercises and main book Zhuan Falun") offer links to all Falun Gong books and let reader make his own understanding.


 * That doesn't work. If you read through the discussion archive, you will figure out the complexity of the issues surrounding this article. ---Olaf Stephanos 13:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And I don't think people are supposed to add themselves to the involved party list... -- Миборо в ский 02:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And i dont think any editor is more important than any other on this project in order to "deserve" being placed on the list or to "authorize" the adding of more members to the involved party list.--Andres18 05:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's something called courtesy. If you think you deserve to be placed in the "involved parties" list, message Fire Star to do it. He filed the RfM, so he changes who's on there. -- Миборо в ский 05:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think im being courteous enough as to save him the trouble to do it.--Andres18 05:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

A Tail of Two Masters
July, 2000 - Splits Emerging

One year after Beijing Communist Party banned Falungong as "an evil cult", the spiritual movement outside the mainland appears to be splitting into factions.

A number of overseas followers are now supporting Hongkong-based Peng Shanshan as the sect's new master, replacing Li Hongzhi, who lives in New York.

Quoted from the Hong Kong Sect: We have only one great universal law and one master.

But the master can accommodate in different physical bodies, Ms Tao Hua Lian, a Chinese-Australian disciple of Ms Peng, told the Hongkong iMail on Friday.

''At the early stage, the master has shown up in (the physical body of) Li Hongzhi. Now Master Peng Shanshan is born,'' said Ms Tao, adding that Ms Peng declined to be interviewed.

Hong Kong, the former British colony, reverted to Chinese rule in 1997, and whoever controls the group there has a chance of influencing Falun Gong's development in the rest of China.

The assertion that the woman, Belinda Pang, 37, is the Lord of Buddhas has led to more of a cat fight than catharsis for the movement, which went underground on the mainland after Beijing banned the group a year ago. Mr. Li, who is now based in New York, and Ms. Pang have traded accusations on competing Web sites.

The dispute began on May 11 -- celebrated as Buddha's birthday and, Mr. Li says, his birthday, too, though birth records in his hometown in China show otherwise. Ms. Pang, a tireless organizer in the Hong Kong chapter, organized a march through the city. Although only 24 people turned up, along the way most of them said they had experienced a vision of Ms. Pang seated in outer space while angels flew around her plucking flowers and dropping them to Earth. The flowers turned into raindrops when they hit the skin, said Mary Qian, one of those who said they saw the image.

Mr. Li was quick to denounce Ms. Pang on the official Falun Gong site, www.minghui.ca. (Please note that Mr. Li says some vicious things about Ms. Prang in his Advance Teachings lectures that is published. [link to spcific writings needed]

Ms. Pang, who has drawn 30 hard-core believers, said all recent messages from Mr. Li were fakes, because he has left to quietly watch practitioners and people in the world from a cliff somewhere in the United States, where he is pictured in his last photo posted on the Falun Gong Web site, in January

Prior to the split, Ms. Prang lead the Hong Kong Falun Gong group, tirelessling organizing and spearheading many of the groups events.

Media links about the split

Straits Times (Singapore), July 30, 2000

New York Times, Aug. 3, 2000

[http://www.falundafa.com.hk Falun Gong HK site ] Offline since the split. No Honk Kong Falun Gong group has been able to form since the split.

--Otomo 17:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, i do not think this material should be used in the creation of the article because the aricle reffers to Falun Gong itself. Any other splittings or attempts to form a "faction" out of falun gong should not be considered since these parties who claimed they "have a new master" and so on, cannot be associated with Falun Gong in any way. And i think so because they may have their claims but Mr. Li who is the founder of FG has not authorized any splitting of FG or the creation of a new faction in anyway. So regardless of what they say, they have nothing to do with FG. And what this person in Taiwan claims of Mr Li going quietly to the mountains seems to be rather wrong since Mr. Li still goes to the Fa conferences in USA and presents himself to speak about FG.

Also, dont you think adding details like this will make FG topic on wikipedia waaaay to large? If you think its really pertinent to dedicate a page or a subsection of any page to speaking about this claims from someone in Taiwan then i believe we could reach to an agreement, but i would like to see what writing you have for it so all FG editors can look at it, give their opinions and perhaps propose some edits. What is your opinion?--Andres18 07:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pages added that relate to Falun Gong
Added page for Peng Shanshan We should create a page for Falun Gong Schism. --Otomo 17:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Added page for Sima Nan an outspoken Chinese critic of Falun Gong and Mr. Li Hongzhi --Otomo 18:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I took a look at these pages and Im sorry but i must say they are not neutral at all, specially the writing on it. For example, on the page of Peng, FG is reffered to as a "cult" or "sect" and we FG practitioners do not agree with this denomination. perhaps links to the critics pages could be included along with pro FG pages too but making wiki pages exclusively for critics seems a bit too much dont you think so?--Andres18 07:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi and the patent
I am researching this issue as reported by Peoples Daily Clumsy fraud, harmful heresy: PD commentary

I think that this issue needs to be explored and included on the pages.

--Otomo 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Im sure you can understand that it is pretty hard for me to take this article seriously since, id dare to say its to the outmost extreme of even being fanatically partialized. Still, id like to make a few comments on it: I do not believe it is possible that this report of Mr. Jing Zhanyi could have been published just like that, and even less athorized by Mr. Li since he strictly forbid the publication of any other documents regarding FG that are not written by him or examined thoroughly and approved by him and there is no evidence that he signed the approval for the publication of these document.

It is almost impossible for me to believe he could have authorized the spreading of this document that reflects this students "personal experience" or we would also be seeing many of these type of documents from different practitioners going back and forth among many peoples hands.i think It is even against the principles of Falun Gong to do such a thing because if you publish documents of practitioners claiming they "opened their eyes of heaven" in just a month of practice and things like that, this could generate attatchments on FG practitioners and damage their own personal cultivation.

I believe the only moment where there has been any talk about practitioners personal experiences is at the Fa conferences which are destined for Falun Gong practitioners to share their experiences and help each other on their process of cultivation. Thus, i do not think it should be included in the pages. Besides i think it is not helpful to post anti-FG stories like this that dont really seem to have enough substantial evidence to back them up and that lessen the netrality of the topic ( which is FG) that we want to expose to the public who may not have any knowledge about it.--Andres18 07:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Li Hongzhi Wiki Page
This page was completely made by the critics, how can there be any neutrality over this? also, the "Patent" subsection on the page which was "suggested" on this talk page, was actually added to that page too and nobody is doing anything about it. That means if you have the right to edit pages without consensus from both parties, then perhaps i feel i also have the right to do some edits on that page dont i?. Alright, ill "suggest" some neutral edits and since i want to respect the code of conduct from wikipedia (unlike you), ill let you give me your opinion on these edits, then we'll discuss about it, modify so that both parties can be satisfied about the result and then ill post it on the talk page, im sure there will be no problem in doing so. If you make edits without consulting all the involved editors, then think im being kind enough to ask for your opinion and some neutrality when posting my edits.

Apparently, i believe the critics objective is to make Mr. Li look like someone who is telling lies to everyone of their practitioners claiming to be a "divinity" and got caught in the process. This can be clearly seen since the second paragraph of introduction:

"But as reported by the Chinese government he was born on July 7, 1952; he “changed his date of birth to make it coincide with the birthday of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, in an attempt to show that he was the reincarnation of Sakyamuni,” the government claims".

If you are quoting the government made a direct accussation towards Mr. Li for "attempting to show that he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni" and even though we all know he never even said anything like it, then i think you will have to include Falun Gong's opinion on this matter. Its very non neutral that you make a sentence saying "FG claims he was born on this day, but the government claims he was born on this other day because he is trying to show he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni" This last added little detail already takes of the neutrality of the article. If you want to post it, then you let us voice our opinion on the matter.

1. I would suggest "Whereas Falun Gong practitioners claim Mr. Li has never mentioned he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni and that the Chinese Government tried to mess with the birth dates to try to discredit him" Well...i guess its a start, id like to know what other FG editors think about this and how we can modify this suggestion to make it more accurate. From the critics id like to know if you agree with this suggestion and it subsecuent modifications or if you decide to erase that added detail on the above mentioned paragraph.

2. "No one seems to know who Master Li is and his followers conceal information about him, noted Nina Willdorf from Boston Phoenix. “Talk to several local practitioners, and certain patterns emerge." What in the world is this? directly accussing practitioners of lying and concealing information with no substantial evidence AND in a wikipedia article? This is outrageous and offensive, tell me now where is there any neutral point of views? where is the falun gong practitioners side on this part of the article? there is none, its only made by the critics. If edits such as the creation of this Wiki page are not made in consensus then its a violation of the rules, NPOV, how many times has this been said?. This sentence will be eliminated, if you do not want it eliminated then give us a really, really and i mean really good reason not to do it.

"No one knows much about Master Li's past or present, and followers are reluctant to discuss even what little they do know about him.”[3] Falun Gong’s official website, Clearwisdom.net, introduces the Master with a saintly sketch:". "Saintly sketch" this is so cynical and sarcastic that it even sounds a bit funny, you know, i think its pretty bold of you to go around creating these kind of wikipages and not only making them partialized but even attacking FG practitioners and insulting us directly and not happy with that, you add a large dosis of sarcasm and irony. In a personal note: The fact that you spoke with some practitioners and they seemed reluctant to speak about what they know from Mr. Li doesnt mean any practitioner you come up to will answer the same way, thats generalizing way too much, it even sounds unreasonable and implies we are in some way embarassed or ashamed to speak about our own practice and we conceal the truth about it, thats a very wrong judgement. This other sentence will also be eliminated, of course, but if you want, we can leave the part that says "No one knows much about Mr. Li's past or present" if you really want to say we are reluctant to speak about him then directly make it a claim from the critics and let us answer to it with our input. Things have to be fair.

"According to this biography at the age of four Li began his decades-long training that prepared him to be the greatest Master of all time" You know, i just read the biography and there isnt anywhere that says he was preparing himself to be the "greatest master of all time" so i will suppose this is another of your neverending sarcastic remarks.

"He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking “Nobody can see me!” The other two supernatural abilities the young Master acquired were controlling others’ movements by thoughts and teleportation—he could move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone." According to the biography, Mr. Li acquired many supernatural powers that do not limit themselves to just "controlling people's thoughts" and "Being invisible". Also, even though the biography states he could become invisible just by thinking it, adding to your paragraph that he could "become invisible simply by thinking "nobody can see me" sounds sarcastic too and ill tell you why: This sentence i just reffered to was written this way in order to contextualize one of Mr. Li's experiences in the environment of his childhood. So, since we are reffering to this biography in a more formal way and we are not intending to contextalize any element on our paragraph to create a proper environment in order to understand such experiences, i dont think it should be added this way or else it does tend to sound a bit sarcastic if you ask me.

I would suggest this quote "...at the age of eight, the young adept attained many supernatural powers" as an explanation to this matter. However, if youd like to include some of those stories and complicate things by going into detail about the supernatural powers then i think FG editors would have to explain their views on how supernatural powers exist and their logic according to FG in order to provide a proper, more neutral understanding that could show the reader why these stories have appeared on the biography and what is FG position regarding them.

"The article makes one point clear: all the trainings took place at night in secret locations where no one could witness them." whats the point of this? forgive me if im wrong but perhaps you are generalizing way too much. Besides, the training the first and second master gave him do not speak of anything related to night training. Appart from that, i dont see the relevance of this sentence.

"Despite the biography’s recounting of intensive, decades-long physical and moral training that only legendary saints and heroes undergo, it doesn’t provide the basic background information of Master Li’s life. Master Li apparently grew up in a vacuum." I think i just got tired of repeating myself but ill tell you, statements like this are the ones that give off a really bad image of wikipedia and compromise its integrity, its called "vandalism" and if these statements and claims are not removed or modified as quickly as possible, we'll find a way to report this kind of behaviour. I guess i dont need to say this should be eliminated too. You have no idea how many wikipedia rules you just outrageously and carelessly broke with this little remark.

Not only are you issuing personal attacks, creating an environment of incivility on the context of the article, but you are also using weasel words in order to give the "illusion" of being neutral in three or two sentences along all the article. Quoted from wikipedia "Please avoid the temptation to use Wikipedia for other purposes, or to treat it as something it is not." and i believe you are using wikipedia in order to defame falun gong and speak ill of it instead of actually wanting to create an article. If you really wanted to create and article, you would also consult with the oppossite party when making edits and you would not be breaking the guidelines just like you have been doing for quite a while.

While looking at this Mr. Lihongzhi wiki page i realized not only did you violate all this other rules i mentioned before but i believe your edits and the sarcastic and ironic way you present them in general constitute an act of "vandalism" and it is a serious offense of wikipedia policies.

As stated by wikipedia's guidelines and code of conduct (which i recommend you read a bit) "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" we are not here to advertise or defame falun gong and even less to attack other editors and label them of liars and such.

To conclude i would like to add a quote concerning the critics behaviour on the wikipedia discussion page which has caused articles like this Wiki page from Li Hongzhi to appear.

Please take the time to read the following paragraph also quoted from wikipedia

"Wikipedia is not a battleground

Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals.

Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. If a user acts uncivilly, uncalmly, uncooperatively, insultingly, harassingly, or intimidatingly towards you, this does not give you an excuse to do the same in retaliation. Either respond solely to the factual points brought forward and ignore its objectionable flavoring, or ignore the relevant message entirely.

When a conflict continues to bother you or others, adhere to the procedures of dispute resolution. There are always users willing to mediate and arbitrate disputes between others.

Also, do not create or modify articles just to prove a point..."

If you keep it up and the official mediation comitee rejects our petition in any way, im going to the Arbitration Comitee to report your behaviour and request a ban. If the official mediator arrives, you can be completely sure that i will report this behaviour to him/her in order to take proper action regarding this behaviour.--Andres18 19:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Wiki is not neutral, just complete
Where does it say that the pros & cons can not be presented side by side? The "instructions" from "Master" Li were that you either had to be for FLG or neutral. You refuse to allow any opposing points of view to even be considered and attack those responsible. That's the height of religious descrimination. Cj cawley 01:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstood my post, pros & cons can be presented side by side, but all i see is the cons and not the pros, just look at the Li Hongzhi wiki page, its a mess. The pros & cons should also be exposed properly and neutraly, that means that you cannot expose more pros than cons or more cons than pros, there should be a balance. Did you read all my message? and i dont remember hearing anything about any instructions from Mr Li, could you explain yourself?.
 * Im not religious, im not a fanatic and i dont discriminate, i suggest you do not make such claims without proper understanding of what my message is reflecting.
 * The problem is you see all the cons as a fact, an absolute truth, and that happens because you do not want to listen to the FG editors position. If we are going to speak in terms of discrimination id say the critics are the ones who discriminate us, they are not open to listen to our suggestions or our point of view just because we are FG practitioners. Evidence of that is that they do edits without also consulting with us, WE are also editors as well arent we? and also they label us as liars, so everything we say is a lie to them, they dont even take us seriously, im guessing you know this is discrimination as well.
 * Concerning the title of your message "wiki is not neutral, just complete" thats your own understanding, or else, give me evidence that wikipedia states information should not be exposed with a neutral point of view or in a neutral way but instead, how the information is presented depends on the efforts the editors from both parties make in order to prove their point.--Andres18 02:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And you wonder why, after that litany, we requested a mediator?

There's a good book: "Groo, Mightier than the Sword". Basically, he who controls the press also controls the people. Setting up your own "newspaper" & "tv" station are the same thing.
 * As for the for or neutral agrument, go back & ask your own people. I got the speech from the ex several times.
 * As for my own FLG experience, I also got that from the ex. I was even trying to help her at one point, then I realized what FLG was; however, it was too late for her.
 * I believe the Chinese Press about as much as I believe the FLG press - both are suspect. The Chinese just happen to do a much better job at presenting actual people - not just a listing of names.
 * If you are FLG, then you are a religious fanatic. It's impossible to have a conversation without FLG coming up.  I know, I tried.  One good example was dinner with the ex last night.  She shows up with a "friend".  She only has FLG friends and no one else.  I gave up even asking.  They show up 1 hour late and start in with the FLG conversion.  I brought up a simple point.  The fact that I am Catholic never came up.  Needless to say, it went over their head.  I am going to play with the kid, have a good day.

Cj cawley 12:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, im not wondering why you requested a mediator. Secondly, Your ex's behaviour concerning FG doesnt relate to the entirety of FG, she has her own attatchments and problems and we are all different. I dont go around talking about FG to everyone or trying to "convert" people, i think its really senseless to try to convince someone to like something they do not like. I may give away some flyers on the street from time to time or just briefly mention FG is something good if the topic comes up, i could extend myself a bit if the person im talking to is interested. I dont limit myself to having FG friends, i dont care if someone practices or not, its not a requisite to make a good friendship. Someone can be a FG practitioner and not follow the guidelines accordingly. Ive met non-practitioners who are a lot much better people than a few FG practitioners ive met, and these good people dont like FG, does that make them bad people? no. Just because you had this experience with your ex doesnt mean all practitioners are like this, i dont behave like your ex and im a FG practitioner. See? there goes the labeling again "If you are FLG, then you are a religious fanatic" says who? how many thousands of practitioners have you met in order to make that generalization? FG is not even a religion, i find it offensive that you label me as a religious fanatic and dont even know me at all. If your wife is very attatched to this practice then thats her business and she needs to fix that as a practitioner, that doesnt mean all FG people are like that. If the student of a class has bad grades in a certain subject, that doesnt mean all the students of the same class have a bad grade on the same subject.--Andres18 21:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Cj cawley, how did it go with the trial?

Who is asking? Also, I am not allowed to discuss material related to the trial. There should even be a section for things like that in the wiki page. Thanks for the suggestion.

As for Andres comments, the ex was not alone. The first pass through was 5 FLG people + the ex vs. 1 highlander. Do you want me to continue?

As for the religious fanatics, just pickup your own paper. The only thing missing is a Fatwah ordering the deaths of Chinese officials. Everything else is in there. Actually, we should also add a section for that too.

Back to playing with the kid. Cj cawley 12:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of my original message which you call "litany" proposed some edits for the li hongzhi wiki page and also issued a warning. Why dont we stop this discussion which seems to be going nowhere and concentrate on answering to these proposals or creating another thread you may have in mind in order to advance at least a little bit before the mediator arrives? or are we supossed to wait for him/her?--Andres18 12:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Warning, wow, just let you know I am not afraid of your FAlun Gong supernatual powers. --Yueyuen 20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh im not going to do anything, thats the official mediator's job, not mine.--Andres18 19:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually cawley, its seems as you don't know what you are talking about, you have been brainwashed. 213.114.166.253 19:11, 20 August 2006

It seems that all critics of Falun Gong are brainwashed by Master Li. :-) --Yueyuen 20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder, how can Mr. Li brainwash critics? does he trick them into criticizing him? that doesnt sound very reasonable to me. To The person who did not sign his/her post: 1. Dont judge people like that and even less do so if you are a FG practitioner. 2. Sign your post.--Andres18 06:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Request to put up photo
I don't have any opinion on the Falun Gong, I just want to know if I can put a photograph of practitioners in New York City I took today? The main way I try to create value to Wikipedia is by contributing photographs, even for entries as mundane as Lettuce and Skywriting. Here's the photo to the right. --DavidShankBone 19:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It may not be a good idea. what happens if every practitioner contributes a picture or everyone coming to this site contribute a picture? --Yueyuen 20:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't particularly care for slippery slope arguments which boil down to, "Don't make a sound decision today because we may need to make a sound distinction tomorrow." There's a lot of good ideas people shoot down because this may get out of hand. These pages are meant to carry value for their readers; adding a photograph of what the article is about can improve its quality exponentially. Images give readers a "full picture" so to speak. I don't think it has to be my photograph, but I think a photograph of its practice is warranted, and would make this page more complete. By your reasoning, Yueyuen, nothing in Wikipedia would get accomplished. What if everyone wanted to contribute to an article? The whole idea behind Wikipedia is community contribution--what you are concerned about is exactly what Wikipedia stands for. It's up to the other members of the community to collectively decide to keep or ditch a photograph. My photograph, in particular, only shows practice--it doesn't show protest or make any other statement except perhaps that people from differing backgrounds do Falun Gong, in this case in New York City. If you look at my contributions, you will see I have no agenda--just photography. So, this photgraph was taken with a "neutral" perspective --DavidShankBone 21:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * DavidShankBone welcome to the Falun Gong mess.  Since you are new here you might not be aware of the edit wars that have been going on on all Falun Gong pages.  Believe it or not pictures have been a source of contention.  Falun Gong practiiotners only want pictures like yours that deliever a nice image of the group, they would not allow pictures that reflect the true nature of the Falun Gong.  For example, on Li Hongzhi’s page here his pictures are repeatedly deleted by practitioners, why would they do that?   It is because they do not want the world to know that the FG is a religion, a cult to be exact.  --Yueyuen 22:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand, and I will leave it up to the page to decide - there are other pages where I can place the photograph. It does a disservice to this page to not have one. But as a note to all vested parties - I do not have a horse in this race, and as a reader of Wikipedia I would find an image like mine--not necessarily mine--to be useful. One thing that can be agreed upon is the fact "Falun Gong practice outdoors and in public spaces." This is a photo of this fact, whether you like the FG or not. It does not hold a value--I'm Episcopalian, so I just took a photograph of something I see. With that in mind, I will leave it for those who have a vested interest in this page to decide, and I will move on. But I bet if the 2006 Qana airstrike page could work out its differences (that's the Middle East!), than so can all of you - best of luck. --DavidShankBone 22:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We are waiting for a mediator, hopefully he/she can enlighten us. good luck. --Yueyuen 23:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The truth Yueyuen? Obviously you have listened to the CCP propaganda. Falun Dafa is not a cult nor a religion, it is a qiqong cultivation school within the Buddha-School.

Publicity shots of practitioners do not consititute evidence of spirituality

 * True spiritual realization does not depend on the appearance of anything (eg: how sweet the faces of Falun Gong practitioners look in a PR picture), but rather a deeper reality which is not of form or name. Because Li Hongzhi is so attached to his reputation (criticizing his teachings is one of the worst sins you can commit)he has created a flock of disciples who devote themselves to concealing and spinning his teachings to make them acceptable to the west.  I challenge any fair minded person to read what the Falun Gong practitioners have said about their beliefs in Wikipedia and then compare that to what Li says Falung Gong is in his lectures and poems.


 * In the practitioner-written stuff you'll find no mention of Li as exclusive savior; people being weeded out by Li's fa-rectification; the requirment that practitioners work to destoy the Chinese Communist party as a condition for their salavation; Li's promise to turn them into gods if they do their duty and expose the evil, wicked CCP or the demonization of homosexuality.


 * The pretty pictures are all part of the big lie...a total distortion of the Falun Gong for the western audience so that Li can further his goal of destroying the Chinese Communist party, while at the same time not raising suspicions of western reporters and politicians. After all, if the Falun Gong is the enemy of the big bad regime in China, it must be good, right? And boy, just look at how peaceful those practtioners all look as they meditate and send forth their self-rigteous thoughts to save the universe from the likes of me.  --Tomananda 07:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If publicity shots of practitioners do not constitute evidence of spirituality and you dont want them on the wiki page, then Fo images of Mr. Li do not constitute evidence of worship, take them off.--Andres18 13:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Andres, actually I am in favor of having both practitioner shots and Li-in-Buddhist-robes shots, as long as they are balanced. This is an enclycopedia article, not a promotional pamphlet for the Falun Gong. What annoys me is that month after month go by and every time a non-practioner editor tries to introduce either a picture or text which sheds light on Li's self-assumed divine nature (or Buddh nature if you would prefer) the response is always the same: delete the picture or the text and accuse the non-practioner editor of having a POV.  This is total bull and you know it.


 * Will Falun Gong practitioners ever reach a level of comfort with their beliefs that they allow a complete reporting of those beliefs in Wikipedia? So far, that seems unlikely. In case you think I am being cynical here, I assure you I am not. I have done yogic meditation and greatly respect hindu guru Swami Satchidananda, who founded the Integral Yoga Insitute.  Unlike Li, Swami Satchidandana never assumed the role of god, but he did wear the traditional orange/red robes of a hindu renunciate.  I find it mind-boggling that Falun Gong practitioners continue to conceal some of the most basic teachings and understandings of Falun Gong.  Put simply, I have learned over the years to distrust most of what Falun Gong practitoners say.  As long as practitioners continue to be more committed to preserving the PR image of Li than to reporting the truth about Falun Gong, I will continue to distrust.    --Tomananda 23:34, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Tomananda: I have been following this for a while and I see what is happening.
 * The explanation for you is that by talking about all the 'high level' things right away people obviously would not understand anything and think Falun Gong was nonsense and not learn it. Many people who are cultivation material might lose the chance. If I had come across all this earlier I might have written the whole thing off, too. It took quite a process to understand and accept Zhuan Falun, even after all the other things I had read. It takes time and a process to understand. For example, at some kind of Open Day at a university, different deparments advertise what they are going to teach. The Chemistry department doesn't go ahead and display third year chemistry learning, because no one would understand it. They just talk about the basic stuff and later people progress up to that level and can understand it. Cultivation is similar. People who understand Dafa would not talk about all these things to non-practitioners because they know how precious this is and want to do what is best for Dafa. That is my explanation for your comments, like why practitioners behave apologetically for their beliefs, or do not right away say all these things about Master and Fa-rectification. You have an ill agenda and are seeking to harm the Fa. You are doing the worst of things and you do not realise it. Dafa has not been damaged by this massive and incredibly evil persecution, so you should not think too highly of your crusade here on wikipedia. It amounts to nothing and you are ruining yourself. I think it will be fine if everything is laid out very simply and clearly for everyone to read. Tomananda makes good points about some things here and they should be addressed. I am trying to address the situation in a general way, Tomananda. There is nothing to worry about for us. To other practitioners reading this: I do not think it would be best to drag this out, subvert Tomananda in a sly way, or try to talk sideways about anything. That does not seem like the most righteous approach. If it's all stated simply and clearly with no distortions it will be fine. I see Tomananda's writing above as an awful distortion and an ill-minded interpretation of this event. I think it would be best at this point to state the case very frankly, and I am sure a consensus can be reached with the wording. I think this would be the most responsible way to move forward. Hasn't Master always said that practitioners should be responsible to society and conduct themselves openly, with dignity and confidence? We should not give people cause to say that we are being slippery, apologetic or dishonest in some way. I am on holiday at the moment so I can spend time on this. I know that things here on wikipedia have moved forward quite a bit, and that this has been going on for a while. Now there is the mediation happening, so I am not asking to be included or recognised, but I hope I can still contribute in some way. I am writing this because I want to be responsible to myself, to sentient beings, and to Dafa. Other practitioners, if you have some response please post it or email me. So I think it would be best to respond to this very directly; Tomananda's accusations against practitioner's attitudes are founded. Obviously his take on Dafa is lamentable, really unutterably lamentable.


 * It is actually the most perfect thing; really, all of this is completely perfect and righteous so there is nothing to worry about. Master's salvation is the most merciful. Dafa is really the most magnificent thing!
 * --asdfg12345 (UTC/GMT) 01:52 p.m. Wednesday, 23 of August 2006

The World Needs Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance
I think this is an excellent idea. Everyone should contribute photographs of Falun Dafa, and the whole world will see their kindness and compassion, and their peaceful Fa-Spreading activities. Let's see more Falun Dafa Photographs!

Isn't this fair? The article is about Falun Gong after all, shouldn't we have pictures of Falun Gong!?

I WANT FALUN GONG PHOTOS!



I have some to submit, how do I submit Falun Dafa photographs?

Daniel Price


 * I agree with the pictures. Since FLG has no membership "list", pictures are the next best thing.  One picture, one name.  This way, the CCP agents will have an easier time collating the names & faces.  You will be saving them a lot of work.  When FLG members are banned from peaceful countries like Iceland, they will have faces to go with the names.  :)-

Cj cawley 01:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Photos posted here should be in consideration for the article. Since that article is locked (and likely to stay that way for a long time to come) the point is moot. --Fire Star 火星 12:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * User:Cj cawley, the purpose of Wikipedia is not a list of all people that should be discriminated against. Remember the Third Reich made all Jews wear insignia so that they could be recognized.  It was discrimination.  Discrimination of people's religious faith is a violation of Human Rights.  --HResearcher 03:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I plead Godwin's Law. You lose. -- Миборо в ский 04:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Violations of Falun Gong's human rights in China
"According to the U.S. State Department's annual human rights report, Falun Gong prisoners are required to work long hours daily in "extrajudicial reeducation-through-labor camps." Others are placed in psychiatric facilities or special deprogramming centers. In addition, human rights groups allege that detainees are often deprived of food and water, are denied bathroom facilities, and are sometimes forbidden to sleep. The State Department report adds that several hundred Falun Gong adherents reportedly have died in detention due to torture, abuse and neglect." Brother's Plight Spurs Effort to Improve Human Rights in China by Kristie Lee, November 7, 2003, Duke University --HResearcher 00:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is invalid. It claims to be written by two different people in two different places & references a third for a contact. Next time you post something like that, you should at least get all of them on the same page in the same place.

Almost forgot, I will find out about reporting you to the Duke U. press.

Cj cawley 01:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Cj, please read No legal threats. --Fire Star 火星 02:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * User:CJ cawley, I don't understand your threat to report me to the Duke University and am not bothered by it anyway. Yes, it's from Duke University, there's no legal problem in citing it. The article is valid, and the claims cited are supported by the U.S. State Department report.  --HResearcher 03:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If the charge is supported by the US State department report why don't you cite them dirctly? --Samuel Luo 04:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Heres another from CNN in 2000 which also references the U.S. State department: U.S. State Department report says 'religious intolerance remains far too common' around world, September 6, 2000


 * I will add the US State Department report also. Thanks for reminding me. --HResearcher 04:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, it's Duke. What do you expect from Duke? :D -- Миборо в ский 04:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would expect them to support Human Rights instead of trolling the U.S. Department of State. :D --HResearcher 04:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Government continued its repression of groups that it categorized as "cults" in general and of small Christian-based groups and the Falun Gong in particular. Arrest, detention, and imprisonment of Falun Gong practitioners continued, and there have been credible reports of deaths due to torture and abuse. Practitioners who refuse to recant their beliefs are sometimes subjected to harsh treatment in prisons, reeducation-through-labor camps, and extra-judicial "legal education" centers."U.S. State Department, International Religious Freedom Report 2005, China (includes Tibet, Hong Kong, and Macau) --HResearcher 05:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong practitioners with mental illness
The Falun Gong has accused the Chinese government of persecuting practitioners by lucking them up in psychiatry hospitals. But many people including psychiatrists in the west have attested that some practitioners were mentally ill. Dr. Arthur Kleinman and Dr. Sing Lee from Harvard medical school have been long-time researchers on various psychiatric topics in China since 1978. One of the patients Dr. Lee interviewed in China in 1997 was a Falun Gong practitioner. Two years into practicing the Falun Gong this 54-year-old housewife found that her body moved in ways that were no longer under her control. Dr. Lee recounted her case:


 * She thought that these movements “talked” to her, sometimes by writing through her hand, telling her that continuous practice of Falun Gong could transform her into a Buddha. That she was plump and had long earlobes, resembling the popular appearance of a Buddha, convinced her that this possibility was real. In due course, however, she was frightened because the movements began to tell her to die by not eating and by taking an overdose of pills. She believed she was possessed by a shapeless fox spirit a thousand years old that required her body to turn into a real Buddha. She became an insomniac, restless, and distressed. Her distraught family members took her to a psychiatric hospital where she initially resisted treatment because she did not think that she was mentally ill but was only having a paranormal experience… Subsequently, she stayed in the hospital for one month and gradually recovered with antipsychotic drug treatment. She accepted the advice of her doctor that she had a sensitive disposition that was not suited for practicing qigong and stopped the Falun Gong altogether. She knew of many middle-aged people who practiced and derived benefit from Falun Gong for health reasons and loneliness after retirement. But she also heard about some who died by self-induced starvation or suicide as they attempted to ascend to the Falun heaven.

The above case shows that some practitioners did suffer mental illnesses and the consequences can be deadly. --Samuel Luo 04:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah please.....how can you get mental illness from practicing falun gong? so you atribute this womans mental state to practicing falun gong? well im sure there are many people with mental illnesses who practice Qigong, its their illness and it doesnt mean it came from practicing Qigong. Are there any official scientific experiments or research that can demonstrate Falun Gong practitioners get mentally ill from practice? no there is not. Just some guards who said some practitioners were mentally ill. And also you say she "heard about people who died by self induced starvation or suicide as they attempted to reach "Falun Heaven"... A mentally ill 54 year old woman and chinese communist guards, what a trusthworthy group of witnesses to make an objective statement about Falun Gong... Suicide is against Falun Gong principles and "self induced starvation" is not they way Falun Gong is cultivated, Mr. Li clearly states on his book Zhuan Falun that we must not do these things at all. Why dont you try and read the book before making these accussations? this way you'll understand a bit more about Falun Gong and we'll save us some time in here.--Andres18 06:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you simply admit the truth? Case in point, you have a Mother having a 15 minute fight with a 7 year old. He repeatedly and flatly refuses to go with her. Her solution? Threaten the father with arrest & physically remove the child from the McDonald's kicking, screaming and throwing up. All she needed was a stick & uniform. Where is the love? Does that respect the wishes or best interests of the child? Please explaing to me how "Truth, Compassion & Forebearance" relates to that one. Once again, I am sure that there are other similar stories & we should add a section for that.

To answer your question. We have all read the book. And have come to the following conclusion: FredFredBurger, FredFredBurger, FredFredBurger, FredFredBurger ....  Ask a kid to explain to you what that means.

"You become that which you hate." Cj cawley 10:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, you think the truth is just the critics side and dont give a chance to listen to the FG practitioners. Becoming mentally ill by practice of falun gong seems as senseless to me as becoming mentally ill for practicing tennis or soccer. Im a practitioner and i know FG does not have this kind of effect. Ive read all of Mr. Li's documents and there is not even one that says we must die from starvation in order to reach what you guys call Falun Heaven. If you already read the book, then read it more carefully and youll notice Mr Li says in falun gong practice fasting is not our way of cultivation. Im sorry Cj but i didnt understand your post.--Andres18 13:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Andres: There are testimonials on Falun Gong's own websites from actual practitioners in China who proudly talk about going on hunger strikes as a way of protesting their detention. Further, the Chinese officials have actually worked to keep these people alive by force feeding them.  Just to be clear, are you denying all of this? --Tomananda 19:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you "critics" actually believe what your saying about mental illness and starvation? It's so ridiculous. I think that some of you are smarter than this and know that it's weak, but at the same time you're willing to sacrifice truth to further your (as a user above put it) crusade. Or is it that you are simply too consumed by your mission to realize this? This isn't the first time you've done this. Your arguments about Falun Gong's funding, organ harvesting being non-credible, relation to natzism, etc. are all equally ridiculous. You continually undermine your credibility with these stupid arguments. I hope you're only fooling yourselves. Stop wasting everyone's time with these childish arguments that you know will go nowhere and have some dignity. Mcconn 06:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mcconn I am not the one who wrote this article; I am also not the one who told these stories about some practitioners becoming mentally ill.  This article was written by two professors from Harvard (a 3rd party) and the story was told by a Falun Gong practitioner.   It is not the critics who are claiming that some practitioners are mentally ill, so please don’t mislead people. --Samuel Luo 06:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter who wrote it. You are are the one using it to make a point. What I said still completely applies to what you are doing. Mcconn 07:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I see, so introducing this article here is ridiculous because you practitioners don't care about the truth and the mental health of practitioners. you really hate this kinds of reports, don't you?  Without them you guys can continue to claim the miraculous health benifits of the Falun gong and condemn the Chinese government for trying to cure those mentally ill. --Samuel Luo 16:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hunger Strikes are Different From Fasting
Hold on Tomanada, we don't want to confuse anyone any further, you are bringing up a completely different point. The hunger strikes that many practitioners take up in China having nothing to do with the kind of fasting that many religions or cultivation ways take up. The practitioners in China who have gone on hunger strikes are simply protesting and resisting the persecution of the evil men in China, this is a common way of protesting for human rights and various freedoms.

**!!** VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO CLARIFY **!!**

You said:

Chinese officials *"have actually worked to keep these people alive by force feeding them,"* but did you know how cruelly they "worked to keep them alive"?

Many practitioners were force fed feces and urine, hot chilli peppers, sewage, and other non human food. These were not meant to help anyone.

The Chinese Communist Party simply reported that they were doing this to keep practitioners alive, when in fact it was another means of concealing their 150+ torture methods against the Falun Gong. I believe there were really just afraid people would find out what their were really doing to the Falun Gong practitioners.

Now,

There is a whole section in Zhuan Falun where Master Li explains bigu fasting, which is completely different from the hunger strikes many practitioners have undertaken in China. Here is a section entitled, "Bigu Fasting."

From Zhuan Falun:

Bigu Fasting

Some of you have brought up the question of bigu fasting. Bigu does exist, and it’s not only seen in cultivation circles—there’s a good number of people in the broader society who’ve experienced it, too. Some people go years or even over a decade without eating or drinking anything, but they do just fine. Some people say that bigu is a reflection of being at a certain level, others say bigu is a sign that the body is being purified, and then there are folks who say it’s part of the cultivation process at high levels.

It’s actually none of that. So what’s it all about, then? Bigu is really a special cultivation method that people use under specially designated circumstances. And just which ones exactly? Back in ancient China, and especially before religions came into being, a lot of cultivators used the method of secret, solitary cultivation. They would go deep into the mountains or they would go into caves to cultivate, and they’d stay far away from the crowd. Once they did that, having a source of food became an issue. If they didn’t use the method of bigu they’d have no way to cultivate, and they’d die in there from hunger and thirst. When I went from Chongqing City to Wuhan City to teach the Law, I traveled eastbound along the Yangtze River on a ship, and I saw that along both sides of the Three Gorges there were some caves halfway up the mountains. A lot of famous mountains have them. In the old days cultivators would climb into them with a rope, cut the rope, and cultivate inside. If they didn’t succeed at cultivating they would die in there. There was no water and no food, and it was under these extremely special circumstances that they used a special cultivation method.

A lot of practices have been passed down that way, so they include bigu. But a lot of practices don’t have bigu, and that’s the case for most of the practices that are transmitted in society nowadays. We’ve said that a person has to commit to one discipline. You can’t just go and do whatever you want. You think it’s pretty good, so now you want to do bigu too. But what do you want to do bigu for? Some people think it’s great, they’re curious about it, or they think their degree of mastery is great, and it’s a way to show off a little—people have all kinds of motives. Even if someone uses that method in his cultivation, he still has to burn his own energy to sustain his body, so the loss outweighs the gain. You know, this was less of a problem after religions came about, since when you meditate or do a meditation retreat in a monastery there are people who provide you with food and drink, so there isn’t that concern. And this is doubly so when you cultivate in the ordinary world, there you really don’t need to use that method at all. Besides, if it’s not part of your discipline you can’t just go and recklessly add it in. But if you really want to do bigu, well, then feel free to go ahead and practice it. As far as I know, usually when a master is transmitting his practice at a high level and if he really wants to bring up his disciple, bigu might happen if his discipline has it. But he can’t do it on a large scale, and he’ll usually guide his disciple to cultivate in secret or by himself.

Nowadays there are also qigong masters who teach people bigu. Has it worked out? When all is said and done, no. Tell me, who’s it worked out for? I’ve seen a lot of folks end up in the hospital, and it’s put a lot of lives at risk. So why did that happen? Doesn’t bigu exist? It does. But there’s one thing: people aren’t allowed to just go and ignore the way of society, you aren’t allowed to do that. Let’s not worry about what would happen if tons of people across the country stopped eating and drinking, let’s just say that nobody here in Changchun ate or drank—I’d say that would save us a ton of trouble! You wouldn’t need to worry about cooking anymore, farmers toil away to farm the land, and if nobody ate it’d really save them loads of trouble, and people would just do work and not need to eat, right? How could that work? Would that be a human world? It definitely wouldn’t work. That kind of thing isn’t allowed to upset the way of things in the ordinary world on a large scale.

When some qigong masters spread bigu a lot of people are put in danger. Some people just obsessively go after bigu, but they haven’t gotten rid of their attachments, there are loads of ordinary people’s attachments still there, so when they see delicious food that they can’t eat, their mouths start to water, their attachments well up, and they just can’t handle it. Then they get anxious, they want to eat something, and when that craving surges you’ve just got to eat or you’ll start to feel like you’re starving. But if they eat they throw up, nothing will stay down, and then they start to get nervous, and they get scared out of their wits. A lot of people have been hospitalized, and there really have been a lot of folks who were in danger. And then there are people who come to me and ask me to fix this mess. I don’t want to get involved in that. Some qigong masters are just plain reckless—who’d want to clean up their mess after them?

Besides, when you run into problems doing bigu, isn’t that the result of what you sought? We say that it does exist, but it’s not some kind of state that comes about at high levels, and it’s not some kind of special sign. It’s just a cultivation method that’s used in special situations. And it can’t be practiced widely. A lot of people seek bigu, and they even divide it into bigu and semi-bigu, they even rank it. Some people say they drink water, some say they eat fruit. That’s all fake bigu. I guarantee it won’t work after some time goes by. A person who truly cultivates with it goes and stays in a cave and won’t eat or drink anything. Now that’s real bigu.

Daniel Price

Mental Illness
Since this talk page is about Falun Gong, and people are bringing up the point of Falun Gong practitioners with mental illness, it is absolutely nessicarry that we hear the Falun Gong POV on mental illness. So here is the section from Zhuan Falun on mental illness and qigong pyschosis:

Qigong Psychosis

In the cultivation world there’s this phrase, "qigong psychosis," and it has a pretty big effect on the general public, especially since some people make a huge deal out of it and they’ve caused some people to be afraid of doing qigong. When those folks hear that qigong can lead to psychosis they get too scared to practice. But actually, I’m going to tell you: there’s just no such thing as qigong psychosis.

There’s a fair number of people who’ve gotten possessed as a result of their thoughts not being proper. Their master consciousnesses aren’t in command, and yet they somehow think it’s qigong. Their bodies are controlled by those spirits, and they get all topsy-turvy, and scream and shout. When people see that, they think that that’s how people are when they do qigong, and they get so scared they don’t dare practice. A lot of us mistake that for qigong. But how could that be doing qigong? That’s only related to the low, low level of healing and fitness. But it’s actually really dangerous. If you get used to being that way, and your master consciousness is never in charge, then your body might get controlled by things like your subordinate consciousness, outside messages, or possessing spirits, and it might do some dangerous things. And that would do a ton of damage to the cultivation world. It’s caused by people’s thoughts not being proper and their showing off out of attachment. It’s not qigong psychosis. Some people, I just don’t know how they can pose as so-called qigong masters—they too talk about qigong psychosis. The truth is, practicing qigong doesn’t lead to qigong psychosis. Most people have seen this term mainly in literary and artistic works, like kung-fu novels and those kinds of things. If you don’t believe me, then go dig through the ancient books or cultivation books—there’s nothing like that. Where could you find something as absurd as qigong psychosis? That kind of thing just doesn’t happen at all.

The qigong psychosis that your typical person believes in has a few different forms, and what I just talked about is one of them. It comes on as a result of the person’s thoughts not being proper, and he got himself possessed, he develops all kinds of states of mind, like wanting some "qigong state" to show off, and so on. Some of them even seek abilities, or maybe they’ve done fake qigongs, and whenever they do qigong exercises they have a habit of relaxing their master consciousnesses; they’re not aware of anything, and they give their bodies away to others, they get all topsy-turvy and let their subordinate consciousnesses or outside messages take charge of their bodies, and so then they do some strange things. If somebody tells him to jump off a building, he’ll jump, and if somebody tells him to jump in a lake, he’ll jump. He doesn’t have any will to live anymore and he’s given his body away to others. That doesn’t count as qigong psychosis, but you could say he’s gone astray, and it was caused by his intentionally acting like that in the beginning. A lot of people have this idea that swaying all over the place is doing qigong, when the truth is, if somebody is in that state when he does true qigong it’ll have serious consequences. That’s not doing qigong—that comes from ordinary people’s attachments and pursuits.

Another form is where a person’s qi gets clogged somewhere when he’s doing qigong and it can’t pass through, or his qi gets stuck at the top of his head and can’t come down, and he gets scared. The human body is a small universe. So Daoist practices, especially, run into these problems when qi is trying to rush through a pass. If his qi can’t rush through it’ll get stuck there. And it’s not just the top of the head—the same goes for other parts of the body, but it’s just that the top of the head is your most sensitive place. After a person’s qi gets to the top of his head and isn’t able to rush down and get through the pass, he’ll feel like his head is heavy, like his head is stuffed up, or like he’s wearing a thick hat of qi, or he’ll have some other kinds of sensations like these. But qi doesn’t have any restrictive power, it can’t bring people any trouble, and there’s no way it could cause some kind of sickness. Some people don’t know what qigong is really about, and they go and make some irresponsible comments in a sensational way, and that makes things a big mess. So people think that if someone’s qi can’t come down from the top of the head he’ll get qigong psychosis, or he’ll go awry, or something, and that’s made a lot of people scared.

When qi can’t come down from the top of the head it’s only a temporary state. Some people’s qi can’t come down for a long time, maybe even half a year. If it can’t come down, a person can ask a true qigong master to guide it and then it can come down. Whenever we can’t get through a pass in our practice, or whenever our qi isn’t able to come down, we should check our character for the cause—"Have I lingered at that level for too long, and now it’s time to improve my character?" When you truly improve your character you’ll see that it comes right down. When you only focus on transforming your gong and don’t focus on changing your character, you know, the problem will stick around until your character improves, and only then can sweeping changes happen. When a person’s qi truly isn’t going through it won’t cause any problems. It’s usually our own minds that cause problems. That, plus hearing fake qigong masters tell them that something will go wrong if qi gets to the top of the head, ends up scaring them. And when they get scared, now that might bring on real trouble. That’s because when you get scared you have fear, and isn’t that an attachment? And when your attachment comes out, shouldn’t you get rid of it? The more scared you are, the more the problem feels like sickness—that attachment of yours just has to go. It’s to have you learn a lesson and get rid of the attachment of fear, improving yourself.

A practitioner won’t feel that pleasant in the cultivation that lies ahead, either. A lot of gong will appear in your body, and all of it is strong stuff that moves every which way inside your body, bringing you all kinds of discomfort. The reason you have that discomfort is mainly that you are always afraid your body has some kind of health problem, when in fact, you’ve already generated really powerful things in your body, they’re all gong, they’re all abilities, and there are lots of living things. If they move, your body will feel itchy, painful, unwell, or whatnot (the nerve endings are sensitive), and all kinds of cultivation states can show up. So you’ll have those sensations as long as your body hasn’t been transformed into high-energy matter. And it’s a good thing in its own right. You’re a cultivator, so if you always consider yourself an ordinary person and always think these things are health problems, then how are you going to cultivate? When calamity strikes during your cultivation, if you still consider yourself an ordinary person, I’d say your character dropped to the level of ordinary people at that time. Or at least with this one thing you’ve dropped to the level of ordinary people.

If you’re going to be real practitioners, you have to look at things from a really high level, and you can’t use ordinary people’s opinions to interpret things. When you think it’s a health problem, you might just bring on health problems. The reason is, once you think it’s a health problem, your character is about as high as an ordinary person’s. Qigong and true cultivation, and even more so that cultivation state, won’t lead to health problems. You know, with people who really do have health problems, 70% of it is psychological and 30% physical. It’s usually that they collapse psychologically first, that they fall apart, and have a huge mental burden, which causes their condition to rapidly deteriorate. That’s usually how it goes. Let me give you an example. There was this person who was tied to a bed. They lifted his arm and told him that they would make him bleed to death. Then they blindfolded him, scratched his wrist (they didn’t make him bleed even a bit), and turned on a water faucet to have him hear the dripping sound. He thought that his blood was dripping, and in no time he was dead. But actually, they didn’t make him bleed one bit—it was the tap water that was dripping. His mind caused his death. When you always think that you’ve got health problems, you might just give yourself health problems. That’s because your character has dropped to the level of an ordinary person, and of course ordinary people do get health problems.

You’re a practitioner, so if you always think it’s a health problem you’re actually asking for it—you are asking for that problem, and now it’s able to set in. To be a practitioner your character has to be high. Don’t always be afraid that it’s a health problem. Fearing that it’s a health problem is an attachment in itself, and it can bring you trouble just the same. In cultivation you need to eliminate karma, and eliminating karma is painful—how on earth could you increase gong in total comfort! And how else could you get rid of your attachments? I’ll tell you a story from Buddhism. There was this person who put in a ton of effort and finally cultivated into an Arhat. He was about to achieve a True Fruition and become an Arhat—how could he not be happy? He was breaking out of the Three Realms! That happiness was an attachment, though, an attachment of excitement. An Arhat should always be in a state of nonaction, with a mind that’s unshakable. But he dropped, and he cultivated in vain. Since he cultivated in vain he had to cultivate all over again, so again he cultivated himself upward. After he put in a ton of effort, he again moved up by cultivating. But this time he got worried and said to himself, "I’d better not get happy this time. If I get happy again I’ll drop all over again." When he got afraid he dropped again. Fear is an attachment.

Then there’s another scenario, which is that some people develop psychosis, and other people say they’ve got qigong-induced psychosis. And would you believe, some people are even waiting for me to treat their psychosis! I say that psychosis isn’t a health problem, and I don’t have time to go and take care of those things. Why is that? It’s because a psychotic person doesn’t have any virus, and he doesn’t have any pathological changes or ulcers in his body. In my view, it’s not a health problem. Psychosis is when a person’s master consciousness is too weak. And just how weak? It’s as if the guy can’t ever take charge of himself—that’s what a psychotic person’s master soul is like. He doesn’t want to be in command of this body anymore, and he’s always foggy-headed and can’t stay alert. When this happens his subordinate consciousness and external messages come and interfere with him. Every dimension has so many levels, and all kinds of messages interfere with him. And a person’s master soul might have done some bad things before this lifetime, and he might have creditors who want to harm him. All kinds of things can happen. We say that this is what psychosis is about. How could I treat it for you then? I’d say that this is really how people develop psychosis. So what do you do about it? Educate him, and get him to snap out of it. But that’s very hard to do. If you watch, when the doctor in a mental hospital is about to administer an electric shock, the psychotic person immediately gets so scared that he stops mumbling nonsense. And why is that? At that moment his master soul perks up, and he’s afraid of getting shocked.

Usually when a person takes up cultivation he likes to keep practicing. Buddha-nature is something everyone has, and everyone has the wish to cultivate. So, once they’ve learned a practice, a lot of people will keep practicing it the rest of their lives. It doesn’t matter whether he can finish his cultivation or whether he’s obtained a Law, the bottom line is he has a wish to seek the Dao, and he’ll always want to practice it. Everyone knows he does qigong—the folks at his office know it, his community knows it, and all his neighbors know it. But think about it, true cultivation—who did anything like that a few years ago? Nobody did. Only true cultivation can change your life’s path. But he’s an ordinary person and he’s only doing health-and-fitness qigong. So who would change his course of life for him? Ordinary people, you know, one day they just come down with something, or out of the blue they have problems, and there’s even a chance one day they’ll just develop psychosis or maybe even kick the bucket. An ordinary person’s life is just like that. You see him out in the park doing qigong, but he’s not really cultivating, in fact. He wants to cultivate up to higher levels but he hasn’t obtained a true teaching, so he isn’t able to get anywhere cultivating. He only has the wish to cultivate up to higher levels, and he’s still a qigong practitioner at the low level of healing and fitness. Nobody has changed his course of life, and so he’ll have health problems. And if he doesn’t take virtue seriously nothing will get well. It’s not as if after you do qigong you’ll never have any health problems again.

He has to truly cultivate himself, and he has to take character seriously, and only then when he really cultivates can he get rid of his health problems. Qigong isn’t aerobics, and it’s something higher than ordinary people, so its practitioners have to go by higher truths and standards. They have to do that if they want it to work. But a lot of people haven’t done that and they’re still ordinary people, so when the time comes they’ll still get health problems. So maybe one day he suddenly has a stroke, or he suddenly comes down with some kind of disease or some kind of ailment, or maybe out of the blue he gets struck by mental illness. Everybody knows he does qigong, so when he develops psychosis people say he got qigong psychosis from his practice—they slap on a big label. Now think about it, is that reasonable? An outsider doesn’t know what’s going on, and it’s hard even for the experts or for a lot of qigong practitioners to know what’s really at work. If this guy comes down with psychosis at home it probably won’t be as bad, but people will still say he got it from doing qigong. If he develops psychosis while at a practice site, then that’s disastrous. A big label gets slapped on and you can’t get rid of it. "Doing qigong brings on psychosis"—newspapers will all report it. Some people just blindly oppose qigong, "Look, just a while ago he was fine doing the exercises right there, and now he’s like this." But he’s an ordinary person, so whatever is supposed to happen to him will happen. Maybe he’ll have other health problems, or maybe he’ll run into other trouble. Is it fair to blame it all on doing qigong? It’s just like with doctors in hospitals: now that they’re doctors they should never get sick again the rest of their lives? Can you really look at it that way?

So we can say that a lot of people don’t know what qigong is really about, and they don’t know what’s at work, so they go and talk wildly. As soon as there’s a problem they’ll slap all kinds of labels on qigong. Qigong has only been popular for a short time now, and there are a lot of people with rigid ideas who always dismiss it, attack it, and reject it, and who knows what’s behind their thinking. They’re annoyed by qigong… as if it has anything to do with them! And when somebody mentions qigong they automatically call it quack. Qigong is a science—it’s a higher science. It’s just that these people’s ideas are too rigid and their knowledge is too narrow.

There’s another scenario. In the cultivation world there’s something called the "qigong state." A person who has it doesn’t quite seem all there, but he doesn’t have qigong psychosis, either. And he’s perfectly rational. I want to first talk about what this qigong state is all about. You know, in cultivation a person’s base plays a big role. In all countries around the world there are people with religious beliefs, and in China, for thousands of years, there have been Buddhist and Daoist believers, and they’ve always believed that doing good is rewarded and doing evil is punished. But some people don’t believe these things. This was especially true during the Cultural Revolution, when they denounced these things and called them blind belief. Some people think that whatever they can’t understand, whatever they haven’t learned from books, whatever is beyond the level of today’s science, or whatever hasn’t been understood yet, they think it’s all blind belief. There were a lot of people like this a few years ago, but now there are a little fewer of them. It’s because some phenomena have really been reflected into this dimension of ours already, even though you don’t acknowledge some of them. You’re afraid to address them, but now there are people who have the courage to talk about them, and they’ve picked up a little about qigong from what they’ve seen and heard in daily life.

Some people are just so close-minded: when you mention qigong they laugh away at you, they think you’re caught up in blind belief, and it’s just too funny. And when you bring up some of the phenomena in qigong they think, "This guy’s so ignorant!" Even though somebody like that is close-minded, his base might not be bad. If his base is good and if he takes up qigong, it’s possible his Third Eye will open at a very high level and maybe some of his abilities will come out. He doesn’t believe in qigong, but he can’t guarantee he won’t get sick. If he gets sick he’ll go to the hospital. If doctors of Western medicine can’t cure him, he’ll go see a doctor of Chinese medicine. And if doctors of Chinese medicine can’t cure him, and if folk prescriptions can’t cure him either, then he’ll remember qigong. He thinks to himself, "I’ll go try my luck and see if qigong really can heal me." Grudgingly he comes to try it. Since his base is good he’ll do pretty well right from the get-go. Maybe a master will be interested in him, and so this higher being in another dimension gives him a hand. His Third Eye opens right up then, or maybe he’ll enter a state of semi-Enlightenment. His Third Eye opens at a high level, and he can suddenly see the true picture of some of the universe, and along with this he’ll have abilities. Now when this kind of fella sees those scenes do you think his mind can take it? Just imagine what his state of mind will be. The very things he’s always thought of as blind beliefs and totally impossible, and things he’d laugh at the second somebody mentioned them, they’re all unfolding right before his eyes in full reality, and he’s really come into contact with them. So his brain can’t take it, and the pressure on his mind is just too much, and what he says can’t be accepted by other people. But his thinking isn’t illogical—he just can’t put the two sides into proper perspective. He has realized that the things mankind does are wrong, whereas the other side is usually right. But when he does things according to the other side, though, people then say he’s wrong. People don’t understand, so they go and say he’s gotten qigong psychosis by practicing.

Actually, he hasn’t got qigong psychosis. Most of us who practice qigong won’t have anything like that happen to us, it’s only those really close-minded people who have this qigong state. A lot of people in the audience here have their Third Eyes opened—quite a lot. They really have seen things in other dimensions, they aren’t shocked by it, they think it’s good, their brains aren’t jarred, and they won’t experience this qigong state. After someone enters the qigong state he’s perfectly rational, and what he says is really profound, and the logic behind it is sound. It’s just that ordinary people don’t believe what he says. He might tell you that he’s seen so-and-so who is deceased, and that this person told him to do things. Would an ordinary person believe this? Later on he realizes that he should keep these things to himself, and he’d better not talk about them. After he learns to put the two sides into proper perspective he’s fine. These people usually have abilities. And this isn’t qigong psychosis, either.

Another scenario is called "true insanity," and this is an extremely rare thing. The "true insanity" we’re talking about here isn’t actually about going truly insane. That’s not what it means. It means cultivation of what’s true. What’s true insanity like? I’d say that among cultivators maybe one out of 100,000 people has it—you hardly ever see it. So it’s not common, and it hasn’t had any effect on society.

True insanity usually has a prerequisite, which is that the person’s base has to be excellent, and he has to be getting on in his years. When somebody is a bit older there’s not enough time for him if he wants to cultivate. People with excellent bases often come with a mission, and they’ve come from high levels. Everybody is afraid of coming to this ordinary world—after your brain is cleared you don’t recognize anyone. After they enter the environment here in this ordinary world, the interference they get from people causes them to put a lot of stake in their reputations and personal gain, and eventually they’ll drop right down, and they’ll never be able to get out. That’s why nobody dares to come and everyone is afraid. But some of these people have come, and after they get here they really break down in the midst of ordinary people, they really are about to fall, and they’ve done a lot of bad things in their lives. When a person fights to benefit himself, he’ll do a lot of bad things, and then he’ll owe a lot of things. His master sees that he’s about to fall. "But he is one with Fruition—we can’t just sit by and let him fall like this! Now, what can we do…" His master is very worried. There’s no other way to have him cultivate—where could he find a master at that time? He has to return, he has to cultivate back from scratch. But that’s easier said than done, right? And he’s getting on in years, and he doesn’t have enough time left to cultivate. Where could he find a practice that cultivates both nature and longevity?

This person has to be someone with a superb base, and under that extremely special circumstance, and only then, can the method of making him insane be used. In other words, when there’s absolutely no hope, and in a situation where he can’t return on his own, that’s when this method might be adopted—to have him go insane, that is—and a certain part of his brain will be shut down. For example, we humans are afraid of the cold, and we’re afraid of filth, so the part of his brain that fears cold is shut down, and the part that fears filth is shut down. After these parts are shut down, this person will have some mental problems, and he’ll really start acting like a lunatic. But people who are like this usually don’t do bad things, and they don’t insult people or hit people, instead, they often do good things. But they’re actually cruel to themselves. They aren’t aware of the cold, so they’ll run around barefoot in the winter snow, wearing just a thin layer of clothes, while their feet freeze to the point of cracking and bleeding. And because they aren’t aware of filth, they’ll even dare to eat feces and drink urine. I know that there used to be this one person who gnawed away happily on horse manure that was frozen hard like a rock. They can bear hardships that an ordinary person couldn’t bear while his mind is still intact. Just imagine how much they suffer from this insanity. Of course, they often have abilities, and in most cases they’re older women. Older women had their feet bound in the past, but there was one who could easily scale a wall that’s over two yards high. When this older lady’s family saw that she’d gone insane and always ran outside, they locked her up indoors. But when her family went out she would just point her finger at the lock and it would open, and so she’d get out. "Then let’s lock her up with steel chains." After her family headed out, she would undo the chains with a mere shake. It was impossible to restrain her. And it was this way that she went through a lot of hardship. She really went through some serious hardship, and things were just brutal, so she could quickly pay back the bad things she owed. It doesn’t take more than three years, and usually it’s over in just one or two. The hardship she goes through is pretty huge. As soon as it’s over they understand. With this their cultivation is considered done, so instantly they’re Unlocked, and all kinds of divine powers come forth. These cases are extremely, extremely rare. This has happened in history, though, but it’s not something a person with an average base is allowed to do. You all probably know about crazy monks and crazy Daoists, and they really did exist in history, it’s been documented. There are a lot of stories like the one about "the crazy monk who swept out Minister Qin" and the ones about crazy Daoists.

So now this "qigong psychosis" thing, or "going into fire like a demon," to take the old expression for it really literally, I’d say it’s definitely bunk. Let’s say so-and-so really can draw fire, though—then I’d say that guy’s something. Or he can spit fire and send it out with a stretch of his arm, and he doesn’t even need a match to light his cigarette, then well, he’s not psychotic, he’s supernormal!

Daniel Price

Li Encourages Practitioners to Go On Hunger Strikes
Daniel: You are evading the simple truth:  Li encourages his disciples to let go of their attachments, which includes attachment to their lives, in order to reach consumation. Your long post about Fasting is a diversion from this reality. I am copying here a portion of Samuel Luo's writings to put this all in context, so that casual readers of Wikipedia will not be confused by your diversionary tactics:


 * Master Li’s teaching of “letting go of life and death” has been carried out by many practitioners in the form of the hunger strike, which has become a powerful tool for the practitioners under custody. Worrying about their deaths, police have had to release them due to their health condition. Because it works, more and more practitioners have gone on hunger strikes after being arrested, but this practice nonetheless weakens the practitioners’ health and can even kill them. As early as January, 2000, the hunger strike tactic took its first life—a 52-year-old female practitioner living in Beijing.8 Unfortunately, at that time the hunger strike was already a common practice and was carried out even in groups. As reported by the Falun Gong itself, 140 practitioners once went on a mass hunger strike while in the Da-Guang detention center.9


 * In dealing with these hunger strikes the police have changed their approach—instead of letting them go, they force-feed them. Sadly, because of the resistance from practitioners, methods resembling torture have been used, as described in one practitioner’s account:


 * In order to verify that practitioners are innocent and ask for justice and freedom from Jiang Zemin's government, we began a fast July 9. On the fifth day of our fast, doctors and armed police came to the detention center to force-feed us. We were shackled, and tied to the "bed of punishment." Our hands and feet were tightly bound. Plastic catheters were inserted through our noses into our stomachs. At this moment I felt there was great pain in my stomach and I thought I was going to die. I struggled hard against the evil; the harder I struggled though, the tighter the shackles became. The pain was unimaginable; I clenched my teeth and endured. I was force fed four meals because I could not move. I was very sad at that time, since I never thought I could be so weak.10


 * Although the intention in force-feeding these practitioners was to keep them alive, this method did cause all kinds of injuries and some times even killed the practitioner. In one incident a practitioner was force-fed through the nose on his sixth day of hunger strike. The feeding tube caused severe injuries to his respiratory system, which seriously infected his lungs. He died in the hospital on February 11, 2000.11 However, despite the terrible experiences and deaths caused by hunger strikes, the Falun Gong organization continues to promote them with stories like this:


 * During the 15 days of detention, I insisted on a hunger strike. After I vomited, they measured my blood pressure and diagnosed that my heart had problems. I was tortured until I was on my last breath. They thought that I would die soon, so they let me go home… After I was released, I went to a practitioner's home and just drank several cups of water. I was fully recovered the next day. From my experience I deeply realized Dafa's supernormal and unimaginable power.12


 * This story is different from the others in a few areas: 1) it doesn’t give a name, 2) she doesn’t describe any force-feeding experiences even though she “insisted on a hunger strike” presumably for 15 days, and 3)“the supernormal and unimaginable power of the Dafa” which recovered her body over night is not seen in other practitioners’ testimonials. With these questionable characteristics, one wonders if the story was faked by the Falun Gong organization to encourage practitioners to “let go of the life and death” in the form of hunger strikes. In any case, with these kinds of encouragements, the hunger strike has become the main cause of practitioners’ deaths in police custody, especially in the years 2000 and 2001. With the death rate reaching 977, it’s sad, but not surprising, that there is no voice in the Falun Gong organization questioning the practitioners’ irrational and sometimes deadly tactics of using hunger strikes.


 * Li could put a stop to the hunger strikes, thus preventing many deaths, but instead he pushes his followers to take extreme measures, then fails to speak up when they choose to go on self-destructive hunger strikes. To further encourage these extreme tactics, Li proclaims that those practitioners who die in detention centers have “reached consummation.”13 Why is it that a spiritual master, living in the United States, would promote dying in a detention center in China as the fastest way to reach consummation?


 * The fact that practitioners have committed suicide in the form of “hunger strikes” shows that the Falun Gong organization has indeed lied about the deaths of at least some of its followers. What Li and the Falun Gong organization do in promoting self-destructive actions to defend the Dafa amounts to sending those practitioners to their death. Source:

PS: I didn't bother to copy the links to the footnotes in the above paragraphs. However, for people who want to verify that practitioners really did make these statements, you can find all the footnote links in a section called "Resisting the Ban" at:    So Andres, while you may deny that Master Li encourages self-destructive behavior on the part of his disciples (by "self-destructive" I mean in the mundane human sense of keeping your body alive by eating), the evidence points in another direction. You may point out that some Chinese guards are abusive in how they force-feed practitioners under their care (and I agree that some of them are), but you can't lay the blame for these hunger strikes in the first place on corrupt Chinese guards. Clearly, the practitioners are dutifully following their Master's directives in order to achieve Falun Gong consumation. --Tomananda 22:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, ill tell you what i think, but please understand im speaking for myself and not in behalf of Falun Gong. I dont agree with hunger strikes. But that is just my personal opinion and perhaps my limited understanding of life in general might not let me understand this issue better and see what can be gained through the use of this method as a protest. Appart from that, I reeeaaally dont recall Mr. Li encouraging the practitioners to do hunger strikes or even to protest in any way.--Andres18 00:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa Hao (good)
Tomananda,

I am not trying to use divisionary tactics.

Yes, Master Li Hongzhi has told practitioners to remove all attachments, even to life and death.

This does not mean committing suicide.

A true cultivator does not care whether he lives or dies, only human beings get scared when they are about to die. When a being dies in this world, it is only his outermost shell that sloughs off, this human body made of molecules dies, while the particles of his being in the more microcosmic dimensions stay intact, so to a cultivator, or a God who has reached consumation, life or death in the human world is not important, as they understand from the persecpective of the Buddha Fa what happens to their being after they die.

After death, your entire being does not die and cease to exist, only this most surface body and these surface molecules die out.

As far as I know, Li Hongzhi has never told practitioners to go on a hunger strike, I have not seen his words saying this.

I do know for sure he has forbidden suicide, so if you are saying Falun Gong practitioners commit suicide by means of hunger strikes, then they are not following Master Li's Teachings. True practitioners would never commit suicide, or do anything to harm themselves. All acts of hunger strikes were to protect Falun Dafa and to resist the persecution.

One more thing,

Chinese policeman were not only cruel in force feeding practitioners, they force fed them feces, urine, and hot chili peppers. How do you explain this? This is not good for Falun Gong practitioners, how can they cover up these evil deeds? This is beyond the limits of forbearance. This shows the true evil nature of the Chinese Communist Party.

Explain that.

Daniel Price


 * Hi Daniel, just want to share with you a few points.
 * 1)	Master Li has demanded his followers to let go of all attachments (money, fame, sex, etc) including life and death, do you think Li himself lives up to his own teachings?
 * 2)	In Zhuan Falun which was published in 1994, Li did denounced suicide, but he has not spoken out against suicidal tactics used by practitioners in China. In stead he has made dying in detention centers the fastest way reaching consummation.  Don’t you think that he bares some responsibility for these deaths?
 * 3)	You said “a true cultivator does not care whether he lives or dies, only human beings get scared when they are about to die.” Did you think this way before studying Li’s teachings?  Practitioners think differently from ordinary human beings, in my opinion, because they have been brainwashed.
 * 4)	You said “As far as I know, Li Hongzhi has never told practitioners to go on a hunger strike.” Well, Li has not told them not to go on hunger strike either.  There are numerous stories claiming the divine protection from the Master or his Dafa like the one cited above published on clearwisdom.net the official site of your group.  Yet when practitioners died from this self-destructive action the Falun Gong uses their deaths to condemn the Chinese government.  This looks like an exploitive and deliberate tactics of the Falun Gong.
 * 5)	You said “True practitioners would never commit suicide, or do anything to harm themselves. All acts of hunger strikes were to protect Falun Dafa and to resist the persecution.” Do you see the contradiction in your logic?
 * 6)	You said the Chinese policemen feed practitioners on hunger strike with “feces, urine, and hot chili peppers,” do you have any evidence? Anything solely from the Falun Gong will not convincing us.
 * Just one more question to finish this discussion, Master Li teaches that suffering is good for practitioners because suffering is the fastest way repaying one’s sins. With this logic it can be said that the Chinese government is doing the practitioners a big favor.  Do you agree?--Samuel Luo 06:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Another clarification. The ex used to go nutso for hot sauce, chilli peppers, etc. Maybe, the police are feeding them the food they like?

As for the rest, I thought that you had to die in order to reach consumation. That's why the people in Tiananmen choose to burn themselves. Cj cawley 11:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Daniel Price: they have already lost everything, you do not need to engage in this argument. just use this page for discussing the actual content of the article. I think that is safeguarding the Fa. asdfg12345


 * asdfg12345 what you are really doing is preventing Daniel from exercising his critical thinking. In a cult where mind-control is used questions and doubts about the group’s teachings and leader(s) are suppressed.  asdfg12345 you can not get out of the Falun Gong trap because you refuse to think.  What you do is your own business but I must demand you not to tell others to stop thinking. --Samuel Luo 17:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Samuel, I see what you are saying and I apologise as it was not meant to come across in that way. The reason I wrote that was because your understanding of Dafa is so far from reality, and with all you guys have done and your attitudes toward this thing, it really seems like there is no way for you to change your thinking at this point. I was advising Daniel Price not to waste his time answering all your things. I also thought it would be best to promote discussion of the article rather than more back-and-forth between you guys and practitioners. I looked at your points and anyone who understands Dafa could respond to them, explain the situation, and correct the understanding presented there. It's a really deviant understanding of Dafa. But no matter what you had written back to you, you would not change. People who truly understand Dafa know it is the Truth and the most righteous thing. I wrote a bunch of stuff addressed to Tomananda above, you should read it. The different understandings present - that of practitioners and that of anti-Falun Gong people - seem truly irreconcilable. So I think there is no use trying to convince each other either way. The best thing is to get on with the content of the article and come up with something. It's also doesn't matter if it drags on forever. All the things that you see as awful parts of Dafa are actually wrong understandings, and maybe they can no longer be corrected through some kind of dialogue. Besides, these things are very solemn; the deaths of practitioners in custody, practitioners negating the persecution, Fa-rectification, Dafa itself, they are so far beyond all that you understand, say, and accuse that it is utterly ridiculous. It's a really big shame. Cj Rawley maybe you have not sincerely read accounts of torture against practitioners in custody. I think you should clear your mind and read them and try to think about what is taking place. Go through this page http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/. If you have already read and thought about these things then I think it's really awful that you would write something like that. Really a shocking thing, really disgusting. --asdfg12345 The current time in (UTC/GMT) is 12:50 a.m. Thursday, 24 August 2006

I must say, I am totally disgusted today. It's been a while since I've read the talk page and felt this way. You 'critics' are so utterly obsorbed in your mission to show people the "true nature" of Falun Gong that to further your goal you heavily downplay and even make light of some of the worst human rights violations in history and instead try use them to demonize victims. Any rational minded individual with a good understanding of Falun Dafa and the facts of the persecution can see what you're doing. Why can't you? For once I hope you can actually let go of your goal for a second and think about this. I've seen you do this many times, but today I think you've really gone too far. What you are doing is utterly despicable. Mcconn 06:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. This is going way too far, and it has nothing to do with the article. Some critics' utterly dehumanizing, scornful, dismissive and vilifying attitude towards a persecuted group of people is mind-boggling, to say the least. But that's always the case with severe human rights violations. It's a recurring pattern. Crimes against humanity wouldn't take place if there wasn't a significant number of people going into extremes with their enmity. Eventually only history can expose where they stood. What an abysmal tragedy. ---Olaf Stephanos 17:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What is going tooo far is your FG lies like the organ harvesting allegation, if it wouldn’t for that I would not be here. Ironically I supported your fG cult before telling friends that this is a Buddhist group suppressed by the repressive CCP.  I still believe some practitioners were tortured in jail given the fact that police brutality is a big problem in China.  But this does not mean anyone should support this cult since it does not care about the life and death of its members.  --Mr.He 22:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I want to second what Mr. He says here. No one condones the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China. However, Falun Gong critics do not believe there is anything close to "genocide" going on in China. The abusive actions of some local Chinese police officers cannot be fairly used as a blanket justification for the destruction of the CCP or the central goverment in Beijing.  My understanding is that Beijing officials have publicly condemned corruption at the local and provicial levels.  The story about organ harvesting appears to have been fabricated for the purpose of embarrasing the Chinese government. As I have said repeatedly, the Falun Gong has a big credibility problem.  As long as Falun Gong editors work to conceal their own Master's teachings, how can we believe all the outrageous claims about "genocide" and "crimes against humanity"?  The problem with losing one's credibility is that once you've lost it, it's difficult to get it back. --Tomananda 23:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Dafa is Dishonest
Daniel: the reprehensible actions of corrupt Chinese prison guards do not equate to the "true evil nature of the Chinese Communist Party" anymore than the reprehensible actions of some Catholic pedophiliac priests prove that the Pope in Rome is evil. In both cases, these moral conclusions are gross generalizations which do not follow logically. In light of these examples, we might want to work to reform how China manages it's prison systems and how the Vatican manages charges of child abuse among the clergy. But in neither of these cases is it reasonable to conclude that the Beijing government should be eliminated, which is Li Hongzhi's stated goal, or that the Vatican should be destroyed.

The fact that you titled your post "Falun Dafa Hao (good)" speaks volumes to me. Falun Dafa does not deserve the title "good" merely because some of it's believers are abused in China. In order to earn the title of "good" practitioners need to demonstrate their own "goodness" in how they treat others. There are numerous ways in which Falun Gong practitioners fail to live up to the stated principles of "truthfullness, compassion and forebearance" and arguments based on the alleged victimization of practitioners in China do not absolve practitioners from accountability for their own actions. Here are just a few examples, all of which have been mentioned in these discussion pages: As long as the Falun Gong continues to conceal from the general public it's paramount objective--the destruction of the Chinese Communist party--and it's belief in Li Hongzhi as a god or main Buddha who alone offers salvation for mankind at this time, I will feel justified in distrusting everything you say. The big lie continues. --Tomananda 18:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * failure to truthfully report Li's teachings "at the higher levels"
 * failure to disclose that Li assumes the status of a god or "main Buddha" and is viewed as such by virtually all practitioners.
 * failure to clearly state in this Wikipedia article that salvation for Falun Gong practitioners is contingent on "standing up for the Dafa" which for Li means doing everything possible to destroy the Chinese Commuist Party short of overt violence.
 * failure to treat critics of Falun Gong with respect, compassion and forebearance.
 * failure to respect the civil rights of Falun Gong critics, especially the right to free speech. Case in point: the outrageous behavior of that Falun Gong lawyer in Madrid who threatened jail time for the organizers and presenters at the 2005 ICSA conference if they said anything critical of the Falun Gong.
 * failure to acknowledge that some Falun Gong practitioners have jeopardised their health because of Li's teachings on sickness karma.
 * failure to acknowledge that Li's teachings on homosexuals and mixed race people can be considered contradictory to universal standards of civil rights.
 * failure to respect the life and death of Dr. Lili Feng by reporting her death on Falun Gong websites, thereby reinforcing the idea that practitioners are treated as disposable commodities by Li Hongzhi.
 * failure on Li's part to come forward and accept accountability for his teachings rather than living in seclusion, therby avoiding the scrutiny of our complacent media.

This is wonderful material to bring up to the official mediator or the arbitration comitee. Keep it up if you want, you are just working harder to ban yourself.--Andres18 01:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Andres: Rather than responding to these legitimate concerns, you threaten me with some kind of mediator-initiated sanction? In the face of specific intellectual challenges to your positions, can't you do something better than threatening me?  You are showing your true colors. I have nothing to fear from a mediatator, in fact I have been the strongest advocate for mediation all along. I welcome mediation, or arbitration...anything that will lead to an honest reporting of Falun Gong's teachings and practices to the general public.   --Tomananda 01:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

If i ever wanted to threaten you i would have done so directly, im just exposing a very simple truth, if we were to agree to all these points you are proposing to us wouldnt we turn into critics?. We are not critics, we are FG editors, our opinion obviously differs from yours, so you are saying that in order to take us seriously, we have to completely agree with your vision and your POV. If we dont agree with your opinion then we are liars. Tell me, how are we supossed to work like this? I post a warning saying "Guys, you are breaking the rules" and you keep going on and on talking about how your point of view is the truth and how we are liars and dishonest. Your POV is not absolute, learn to respect other people despite the personal differences, the faster you understand that, the easier we will be able to work together.--Andres18 00:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Andres, I don't expect you to agree with my points, but only respond to them. Falun Gong practitioners are liers because Li tells them to lie...or rather, not to speak about the teachings "at the higher levels" when talking to ordinary people.  I don't blame you guys for this deceipt, but I do blame Master Li for manipulating you and destroying your ability to think clearly. Please see my post below to Daniel, and what I have to say about obfuscation...which in this case is a fancy word for apologetics.  Keep in mind that I see you and the other practioners as victims of Master Li, who uses you to work towards the destruction of the CCP.  The failure to honestly admit that the destruction of the CCP is the principle goal of the Falun Gong is part of the big lie.  Just look at the post below: in one sentence a practitioner claims "the Falun Gong has no objective to destroy the Chinese Communist Party" and then later on the same practioner acknowledges that Falun Gong practitioners are busy "spreading the Nine Commentaries."   Give me a break!  What does it take for practitioners to speak honestly about what they are doing (working towards the destruction of the CCP as Master Li requires) and why they are doing it (in order to reach consumation in this period of Fa-rectification, as Master Li teaches.)  The big lie continues, but it is getting more and more tiresome for me to call you guys on these lies.  It's not me who doesn't listen, it's you...and it is understandable why.  According to Master Li, your very salvation is at stake.  --Tomananda 20:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong has no objective to destroy the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party chose elimination, can't you see it? All of China is turning against the Chinese Communist Party because of their 100 years of evil deeds, i.e. Cultural Revolution, Gang of Four, 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre, Persecution of the Intellectuals, Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Buddhists, Persecution of Falun Gong, Promotion of Cannablism, Promotion of Violence, Promotion of Struggle, Promotion of Athiesm. *Please do not ignore this section.* These are all the true nature of the Chinese Communist Party, all of these movements truly happened, and this is why so many people are turning against the Chinese Communist Party.

Did you know that it is not only Falun Gong practitioners who are spreading the "Nine Commentaries on the Chinese Communist Party" in China? Even just common people in China are spreading this book. The Chinese Communist Party defeated itself by becoming so corrupt throughout its 100 year history, and now daily it only gets worse. So, the whole world is finally coming to see its true nature and they are turning against the evil party. This cannot be denied, already nearly 13 million Chinese people have quit the Chinese Communist Party, and 20,000 more quit everyday.

Li Hongzhi has never claimed to be a God or Buddha, he has always claimed to be just a common man, as did Buddha Shakyamuni during his time.

To describe Li Hongzhi's main body as being the Lord Buddha would be an insult to the Lord Buddha, as no human body could compare to the state and holiness of the Lord Buddha.

However, in the book Zhuan Falun, Master Li has described that he has many "Law Bodies" which can manifest in other dimensions, and these beings can be thought of as supernatural godly beings, but these beings exist in state completely unimaginable to human beings, and Law Bodies are completely different from human bodies. The human body is incredibly dirty compared to the Law Bodies of any great enlightened being. There is a section in Zhuan Falun about Master Li's many "Law Bodies."

Law Bodies

Why is there a field around images of Buddhas? A lot of people can’t explain it. There are some people who say, "The field around the Buddha statue comes from monks chanting scriptures in front of it," or in other words, it’s a field that’s created by monks cultivating in front of the statue. But it doesn’t matter whether it’s monks or whoever that cultivates there, that type of energy is scattered and not directional, and the field should be evenly distributed over the floor, the ceiling, and the walls of the whole temple. So why is it only the Buddha image that has such a strong field? For example, there’s usually a field on the images of Buddhas that are in remote mountains, in some cave, or carved into stone. So why is there that field? Some people explain it every which way, but still don’t come up with anything convincing. What’s going on here is that a Buddha image has the field of an Enlightened Being’s Law Body on it. The Enlightened Being’s Law Body is there, so it has energy.

Now let’s think about it, isn’t it true that when Shakyamuni and Bodhisattva Guanyin did their cultivations, assuming there really were such persons, weren’t they cultivators, too? People develop Law Bodies when they reach a pretty high level in Beyond-Triple-World-Law cultivation. Law Bodies are born in the elixir field area, they’re made up of Law and gong, and they manifest in other dimensions. Law Bodies have the same enormous power that the person has, but Law Bodies’ consciousness and thoughts are controlled by his principal being. But a Law Body is also a complete, independent, and real individual life in its own right, and so it can do anything on its own. Law Bodies do the same things that the person’s master consciousness would like to do—exactly the same things. The person would do it the same way if he were to do it himself, and Law Bodies do it however he would. That’s what we mean by "Law Body." When I want to do something, like adjust the bodies of disciples who truly cultivate, I have my Law Bodies do it. Law Bodies manifest in other dimensions since they don’t have human bodies. And that being’s form isn’t fixed and unchanging. He can expand and shrink. Sometimes he becomes really large, so large that you can’t see his whole head, and sometimes he becomes really small, so small that he’s even smaller than a cell.

Please, if you have any more questions, ask. Dafa Di Zi

Actually, that's another good idea. We should have a section on the FLG books, what's the kickback to Li, etc. With comments like: "He can't see his own head", I take it that you are priming us for the new "bobble head" minature coming out. Oooooooooooooo.......... Cj cawley 23:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not flood the talk page with quotations
There's no point in copying large amounts of text from Zhuan Falun or other sources onto this page. If you want to present an argument, please do so in your own words. If you need a reference to an entire chapter or an article, create a hyperlink from your text to the appropriate page. Thanks. ---Olaf Stephanos 05:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Olaf Stephanos On this point I agree with you. I can understand why they use Li's quotes instead of their own words; they probably do not have any. --Yueyuen 07:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree, you should put up the whole book. In fact, you should put up all of them.  The "poetry" shouldn't be a part of it; however, the rest of the crap should.  It will be easier to hyperlink.

Cj cawley 10:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What is there to argue about? I don't want to argue with anybody....

Cj cawley's suggestion is not so bad.

Why not just replace the whole article with the book Zhuan Falun or links to the Falun Gong books and websites, so those who want to know about Falun Dafa, they can just visit the links for themselves.

danielprice


 * Daniel, you're just joking, right? If you really mean what you say you are not serious about writing an encylopedia article,  but instead only care about proselytizing Falun Gong.  What's more, the Zhuan Falun does not represent the Master's current teachings on your role as a Fa-rectification Dafa disciple.  Your duty in order to reach consumation is to help save all sentient beings.  The Fa-rectification is already happening all over the cosmos and beings are already being eliminated, is that not true?  By posting overly long quotes from Zhuan Falun you would be obscuring the essence of the teachings with a whole lot of verbiage.


 * If you want to save me you should be able to summarize the Master's teachings in your own words, as clearly and succinctly as possbile, something like this:


 * According to Li, we are now in the period of the last havoc or final kalpa. People have become so depraved that the Gods no longer look out for them. The traditional religions no longer can save people.  All the beings in the universe are being judged by Li's Dafa.  Only Li's Dafa can save people during this period of Fa-rectification. As Li says,  "Why is it that a being needs to be saved by Dafa and me personally? Or to put it plainly [think about] what kind of a being is worthy of salvation by the Great Law of the cosmos?  For a being who is saved, could it just be about personal Consumation?  So what kind of being deserves to be a Disciple of Dafa?  Would you say those people who hide in their homes and 'study the fa' do?  Or those who only want to gain from Dafa but don't want to give to Dafa?  Furthermore, what about those who, while Dafa disciples are being persecuted, don't want to speak up for Dafa and yet still 'read the book' at home and try to get things from Dafa--what kind of people are they?  You be the judge."


 * Are any of these words inaccurate? In the above block paragraph I used my own constructions to summarize Li's core teachings, then followed up with a supporting quote from Li himself. If need be, I could footnote the source of everything I have said, but is that really necessary?  Do Falun Gong practitioners ever feel comfortable enough with their own beliefs to venture away from the "safe" practice of only quoting Li verbatim?  Has Li gotten you all so frightened of the bad consequences of "plagiarizing" his Dafa that you simply can't do it in Wikipedia? Once again, I issue the challenge: write a brief and clear summary of Li's teachings about salvation during this period of Fa-rectification and I will respect your work as Wikipedia editors.  But as long as we play this game of obfuscation of the teachings I will continue to repeat, over and over again, what your own Master has said.  --Tomananda 19:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There is so much background and context to this, it is not such a simple matter as you write. The issue of cultivation practice is really serious. Saying things like that demonstrates that you do not understand. Your desire to put this on the internet also demonstrates that you do not understand. Dafa disciples understand, so that is why they do not think this should be spoken of so haphazardly and irresponsibly. That's the truth, and that's the reason you have not found us all supporting you in your mission on wikipedia. I think that if the words 'God; Consummation; Fa-rectification; Dafa', if the meaning of a single one of those words could be revealed to you or any of us then it would be a different story. It is also not possible to provide the meanings of those words in language and especially through wikipedia. Over a gradual process of cultivation one understands to a greater and greater degree what those words mean. Maybe we can do an experiment right now to show what I mean. Please explain below what you understand the word 'Consummation' to mean. Just write another straightfoward paragraph on what you understand that word to mean, it's implications and what it contains. I will wait and I think some other people will be interested to see whether you yourself understand what you write. I will preempt you one small thing, sorry if it is unnecessary: do not say that it is up to us to define those words. I am asking for to say how you understand them. This is important, and I find it similar to the question you have been putting to practitioners on wikipedia. Define 'Consummation'. asdfg12345 08:57 p.m. Friday, 25 de Agosto de 2006


 * I understand what Li Hongzhi and FLG practitoners claim because I am a neigong teacher who has trained with some of the top old school martial artists in China. For you to assume that other editors aren't qualified to argue FLG principles is an old, tired argument (see this talk page's archive) that violates WP:Assume good faith, at least. My opinion of those claims is irrelevant to the article, as are the opinions of all the other editors, including yourself. Wikipedia is not a falungong discussion board. The article is going to stay locked as long as editors of any persuasion persist in editing the article for propaganda purposes they way they have been. --Fire Star 火星 21:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Asdfg, why don't you write a short paragraph on "consumation"? The issue I have raised is that practitioners seem incapable of writing out clear and concise statements about their teachings.  I have already provided what I consider to be a clear and concise paragraph above and invited any practitioner to refute it's accuracy.  To argue that the meanings of Falun Gong words such as "consumation" cannot be put into words is begging the question, as well as being evasive.  Unless you and the other practiotioners wish to withdraw from the editing in this article all together, you really don't have a choice.  Falun Gong's teachings will be represented in this article whether you are happy with that or not.  Based on what you say, it seems that you cannot play the role of a Wikipedia editor on this subject because, by your own say-so, the concepts cannot be explained in language.  If that's the case, maybe every mention of Falun Gong should be deleted from Wikipedia.  Actually, what other alternative do we have?   --Tomananda 21:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Fire Star, firstly I apologise as I did not mean to come across like I was negating your opinion or saying no one else is qualified to talk about Falun Dafa. Dafa is for all sentient beings. The problem was that we need to come to agreement on the terms we are referring to for the discussion to be meaningful. That is essentially the problem I was trying to raise, and I could have been more clear on that. Tomananda, I see what you are saying and it is a complicated problem. I will try to respond. Firstly though, I want to reemphasise that I asked you to tell me your definition of the word 'Consummation', and I asked that for a good reason. I want to know how you understand what you are saying. Your response to me has avoided this. For your criticism to be coherent you need to understand exactly what the criticism is. It is meaningful to me that you have not defined 'Consummation', and I think that is because you do not have a clear idea in your mind about what the word means. That is what I think based on your response.

You have stated that you are criticising practitioners for being incapable of writing out clear and concise statements about their teachings. I responded above that it is not as simple as that. With regard to your response, I think what you have said is quite profound. These things cannot be represented in a simple way, and that is why you have found these attitudes from practitioners. That is also why you find no mention of this on falundafa.org. It takes a process of cultivation to understand. Anything worth something will be this way, don't you think? Master says the Tao will not be precious if one could just pick it up on the ground and succeed in practicing it. I do not want to leave it at this though, and not contribute to some formation of what these terms mean. I want to give you a couple of responses, talk about it with practitioners, and hopefully come up with some concrete, clear and concise paragraphs defining some key terms. I will get back to you on that as I hope you can appreciate this is an important aspect of putting this article together; that is, a discussion of the terms could not be meaningful without understanding what they mean and defining them in some way.

I'll respond to what you wrote now: "I have already provided what I consider to be a clear and concise paragraph above and invited any practitioner to refute it's accuracy." - The paragraph is there but you don't actually know what it means. It might as well be a bunch of jibberish if you can't define the terms you are referring to. If you do not know what the word 'Consummation' means, then how can you use it and then say that you have said something accurate? Do you see what I'm saying? This is something that you must resolve.

"To argue that the meanings of Falun Gong words such as "consumation" cannot be put into words is begging the question, as well as being evasive. Unless you and the other practiotioners wish to withdraw from the editing in this article all together, you really don't have a choice.  Falun Gong's teachings will be represented in this article whether you are happy with that or not.  Based on what you say, it seems that you cannot play the role of a Wikipedia editor on this subject because, by your own say-so, the concepts cannot be explained in language.  If that's the case, maybe every mention of Falun Gong should be deleted from Wikipedia.  Actually, what other alternative do we have?" - I'll just do this in one go. I also mentioned this above that spiritual truths cannot be expressed in language so simply, and that it is in the course of actual cultivation practice that one understands. Doesn't that make sense? Think about it. That is why you keep saying that on practitioner's versions of the pages they never include this stuff. That is not because we are trying to 'cover up' or anything deviant. I have already stated that we know this is the most righteous thing, we have nothing to hide and nothing to fear, and that nothing can damage Dafa. It is because it would not benefit any sentient beings, and those who want to find out more about Dafa, those seeking the Fa, can find out themselves by reading; and in this way there will be no misunderstandings. These are big questions and as I say, discussing them haphazardly and irresponsibly is something no one wants to do.

Also, I realise we do not have a choice here, since you are going about this in such a way. Therefore, we will give you something on Consummation, Fa-rectification etc. What I am trying to say is that it is not as simple as all this, though. We will give you something and I think we will all be able to agree. Probably it will have some of the effect you intend. It will not read like some kind of pamphlet, and people probably won't read it then rush out to get Zhuan Falun. People will not be able to accept these things. But it is either that, or let you write something based on your ideas, and that would cause more damage. Continually reverting and avoiding the issue is also not very righteous. I think I already said that in previous posts. The paragraph you wrote is really not such a bad explanation. We can work on it though. Anyway, I apologise for the length of this. It is because Dafa is actually really wonderful, so when I find this page I am responsible to do something. Okay, so we'll get back to you with some stuff on these terms. Please don't take this as something hostile against you or Fire Star. I do not have bad thoughts toward you guys. I hope you see where we are coming from a bit. Also, I am not representing other practitioners, I just wrote all this now and they will all read it then get back to me and we can chat then. Thanks.asdfg12345The current time in (UTC/GMT) is 12:50 a.m. Sábado, 26 de Agosto de 2006


 * It wasn't my opinion that I was worried about, more that that sort of argument doesn't usually go over well at Wikipedia. The biggest problem with this article and the discussion that surrounds it that I see, and why it is still locked and likely to stay locked, is that the majority of the editors here only edit FLG related articles. If you guys were to broaden your horizons a little bit, look around, say, at some of the featured articles and their discussions, you may get a better idea of what to avoid to get the article unlocked. --Fire Star 火星 05:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Falun Gong and Live Organ Harvesting
Heavy pro-FLG bias. -- Миборо в ский 21:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why are you saying that here? If it is too one-sided, improve it by trying to balance it out more. John Smith&#39;s 21:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am bringing it to the attention of the expert editors here on this page. Please refrain from wikistalking. -- Миборо в ский 22:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a 45-page report from Davil Kilgour that speaks about this. This will be used in the article. Omido 09:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is not what's used in this article, it's what's NOT used in this article. Which is, sources from the other side. -- Миборо в ский 12:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you allow us to provide "sources from the other side" on the Li Hongzhi Wiki page and reach a consensus on what we are going to post in there, then im sure we can also reach an agreement on the organ harvesting wiki page in order to make it more neutral.--Andres18 17:17, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

asdfg12345....
Do you think it's possible that maybe we should just write something about Fa-Rectification for Tomamanda, it seems to be such a big hurdle in his mind...

In the mean time, I agree with what you said asdfg12345.

Tomananda, let us hear it, in your own words:

What is Consumation?

If you can at least tell us in your own words what you think this phrase means, we will be able to better gauge what it is that you don't understand about Falun Dafa....

asdfg12345, we could chat on the side if you wanted to, I can give you some contact info if you wanted to discuss this.

Heshi,

danielprice

yes my contact details are on my userpage, asdfg12345


 * Yes, please write a short, concise paragraph or two about Fa-rectification (what is it, why it is so important) and consumation as well. Sorry, I am not going to accept your challenge to write something on consumation myself.  This is not, as you claim, due to a lack of understanding on my part, but rather a conscious decision I have made.  Some practitioners are new to Wikipedia and might not realize that this issue has a long history.  You can go all the way back to March, 2006 in the archives and find tomananda postings asking practitioners to write something about Fa-rectification, consumation and Li's promise to turn practitioners into gods if they do their duty as Fa-rectification period Dafa disciples, which means expose the "evil, wicked"  CCP.  Clearly, Li equates salvation for practitioners with the objective of destroying the CCP.  I know you can point out that according to Li it's the gods who will destroy the CCP, not any human beings on earth.  But those are weasel words.  It's clear that practitioners constantly work to destroy the CCP by:
 * illegally jamming the tranmissions of the main Chinese TV station to broadcast pro-FG propaganda
 * writing letters to people in main land China asking them to condemn the CCP
 * getting US politicians to pass resolutions condemning the CCP for its alleged persecution of FG
 * spreading the Nine Commentaries to people in mainland China. (The Nine Commentaries is as close to a declaration of revolution as anything I've ever read. It's the Chinese version of Thomas Paine's Common Sense.)
 * As you know, I have repeatedly accused Falun Gong practitioners of being dishonest about their core teachings and their Master's objectives. I hope we can now, after 6 months of bickering, make some progress in this article.  --Tomananda 19:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

That is your way of looking at the situation. That is not how practitioners see it. We are assisting Master as he rectifys the Fa of the cosmos and saving sentient beings. So as for an explanation of Fa-rectification, that would be included. Of course, once the meaning of certains actions practitioners have taken, as they are understood within the context of Dafa teachings, have been explained, then you will want to put your own thing below which might say 'critics claim that all this is a ruse to cover Li's overtly politically motives' or whatever. I see that you construe it as some kind of political thing, while practitioners see it from a higher level. As far as we are concerned we do not care about politics or do not pursue any political purposes. So I'm saying the starting point and intention behind what we are doing does not lie within this dimension or contain any political motives. Also, we have only ever reported the facts of the persecution and the history of the CCP. Let me copy your two sentences:

''...Li's promise to turn practitioners into gods if they do their duty as Fa-rectification period Dafa disciples, which means expose the "evil, wicked" CCP. Clearly, Li equates salvation for practitioners with the objective of destroying the CCP.''

In the first sentence you referred to what we are doing as exposing the CCP, while in the second you referred to it as destroying the CCP. We are, actually, only exposing the CCP. Also, the requirements for a Dafa disciple during this period of time are much more than just exposing the CCP. We will have to elaborate on that and spell everything out very clearly. I will get to work on something.

By the way, you did not address my concern. When I asked you that question I was challenging you to straighten out your thoughts about what you are accusing us of. You avoided that. --asdfg12345 The current time in (UTC/GMT) is 08:38 p.m. Sábado, 26 de Agosto de 2006


 * Sabado: I am quite clear on what I am stating about Falun Gong and Li Hongzhi's intentions.  My thinking about Falun Gong does not need to be straightened out" nor is it fair to characterize what I said above concerning the Fa-rectification and FG salvation as "accusations."  My problem all along has been the lack of honesty about the teachings and goals of Falun Gong. Let me cite just one important example: your claim above that Falun Gong practitoners are only "exposing" the CCP but are not seeking to "destroy" the CCP.  This is not true.  In the discussion pages of the Falun Gong article, some practitioners have admitted that practitioners are actively "spreading the Nine Commentaries"   Any reasonable person who has read the Nine Commentaries would reach the conclusion that it's intent is to destroy the CCP.  The Epoch Times, which Li says was founded by Falun Dafa disciples for the purpose of spreading the Dafa, also uses the Nine Commentaries to spread dissent in China and to encourage people to quit the CCCP.  It even reports the numbers who have quit.  Do you deny any of this?   Further, Master Li himself has asked his disciples to spread the Nine Commentaries, as in this recent poem:

For the Good of the World
 * Make clear the truth,
 * and drive off foul spirits.
 * Spread widely the Nine Commentaries,
 * and the wicked Party shall fade.
 * With righteous thoughts,
 * save the world's people.
 * I just don't believe their consciences
 * are irretrievably lost.

Li Hongzhi June 15, 2006, in Philadelphia


 * Does this poem not direct practitioners to spread the Nine Commentaries so that the wicked party will fade? Can you, with a straight face, deny this?


 * It doesn't matter to me whether we use the word "political" to describe Li's goal of destroying the CCP...all that matters is that we honestly report that goal in Wikipedia. And surely you have to agree that this goal of making the CCP fade away is  different from simply exposing abusive practices in China.  If all the Falun Gong wanted to do is to encourage the CCP to reform how it manages the detention of Falun Gong practitioners, it would say just that.  But instead the Falun Gong has called for the destruction of the CCP through a variety of means, including the jamming of Beijing's TV transmissions on mainland China.  If you continue to deny these empirical facts, how can I trust you on any other matters pertaining to this article? --Tomananda 21:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Let me first apologise very directly, as I had a shower after writing that yesterday and thought that I should not have said that we are not trying to 'destroy the CCP'. I wanted to draw some kind of distinction between actions that involve politics and actions that are politically motivated. Spreading jiuping is to save people. The reason is not for something in this world, it is an act of compassion because people who are against this Dafa of the cosmos, and those who support the CCP, are in a dangerous situation. Spreading jiuping will also have the effect of disintegrating the CCP. I think in terms of Falun Gong things, you cannot discuss one aspect without discussing everything; it is holistic. So you will say that we are trying to pull tricks, by saying that spreading jiuping is to save people and not necessarily to disintegrate the CCP, but acknowledging at the same time that it will disintegrate the CCP. You mentioned something like this before - "I know you can point out that according to Li it's the gods who will destroy the CCP, not any human beings on earth. But those are weasel words.  It's clear that practitioners constantly work to destroy the CCP by..." That is just such a manifestation. We are saying that "man follows the earth, earth follows heaven, heaven follows the tao, the tao follows what is natural." Maybe you can imagine a spider web, if you pull one side then the whole thing will bend. Everything is connected to everything else, and nothing can be spoken of in isolation. The bottom line is that the reasons we do these things lie beyond this world and they have greater meanings and purposes behind them. That is the understanding we have of our actions, so that is what I was saying should be explained in context of Fa-rectification etc. Perhaps you don't understand this and think we are making it up, but I have tried to explain how I understand the situation, and the reason I myself do these things is to save people who have been deceived by the lies of the CCP, so they can enter the future. asdfg12345 Sunday, 2006-08-27 T10:33 UTC--


 * Well, it's great that you have admitted that the intent of these actions is to destroy the CCP. After doing so many postings, it's refereshing to be thrown a bone of honesty. The fact that the destruction of the CCP is justified as part of Li's cosmic plan is understood.  What I have not understood is why this rather small and demonstrable fact, together with a whole lot of other factual items which I have been trying to introduce into this article, continue to meet with such stuborn resistence from so many practitioner/editors.  Since you seem more open than many of the other practitioners, would you be willing to go on to answer some of my other concerns or questions above?  For example, what words would you use to describe Li?   I know he is your enlightened master and teacher, but what I am asking is what other words come to your mind when you think of Master Li?  Could you say that you think of him as a "main Buddha" or "a god" (with a small g)?  Do you think of him as all-knowing, all-powerful and incapable of making a mistake?   --Tomananda 01:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation
Let me try to mediate this never-ending discussion between two sides with strong and clear positions and I'm sorry if I offend any or all of you (but i'm sure a lot of that has been already done) but in all reality, the constant battle between the CPC (or the central leadership) and FLG (or Li Hongzhi, if you prefer) is a battle between liars. I have read Li's books, and watched the entire Chinese media attack Falun Gong for about 3 months continuously (on programs such as Xinwen Lianbo, Jiaodian Fangtan, even Dongfang Shikong, and local news specials from Hunan to Xinjiang), and admittedly a lot of it was ridiculous. Yes, Falun Gong promotes truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance (along with a lot of other things) in their books, but had you experienced the method by which they were promoting their beliefs you would be skeptical at best. Falun Gong is not a cult; at the same time neither is it fair to say from a third perspective that by foundation, Falun Gong is something of complete goodwill and compassion. Try reading the millions of newspaper articles before Falun Gong was labeled a cult, many of them criticize Falun Gong from an academic point of view, having absolutely no affiliation with the CPC.

The Communist Government made a decisive move in 1999 to ban Falun Gong. The persecution of Falun Gong that followed was in no way humanitarian by any standards. It is with the greatest sympathy when I hear Falun Gong related deaths because the innocent people are caught in between, and I do have friends who were persecuted, some under terrible conditions. Whether Falun Gong was in reality a political or social threat as some claim we may never know. It is unfair to say, however, that western media, especially the American media's general stance on this issue, is any more fair than that of the state-controlled media in China. Nor is it fair to say that the US government really cares about Falun Gong because it wants to save a few more souls about to be persecuted, and not because Falun Gong could be used as a convenient and timely political weapon against a possible rival government.

Most opinions reflected on Wikipedia, because of its large Western (even American) base, will be more pro-FLG. The issue of Falun Gong in the west is no longer an objective look at a social occurence, but rather as a full-fledged emotional concern. I do not have the power to change that, but at the same time, I want to make it known that it is impossible for Chinese religious experts and political analysts to voice their opinions fairly. I have recently been to China, and Wikipedia was unaccessible. Even if it was most of the English taught in China is quite poor. Now that I think about it, this may be a fundamental flaw with Wikipedia itself. But let's not go there.

I certainly hope I am not the lone voice to reflect these views. Colipon+(T) 00:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The Western media has done an incredibly poor job of reporting on the Falun Gong. For the most part, they buy the Falun Gong story line concerning alleged human rights violations of practitioners in China and stop there. No attempt is made to look behind the PR image of Falun Gong as a peaceful meditative group that just wants to be left alone.  This is all part of a brilliant PR strategy Li Hongzhi and his disciples have created.  No one condones the persecution of these people in China, but by the same token reasonable people both inside and outside of China can conclude that it was a good thing for the Falun Gong to have been banned in 1999.  Note that I said "banned" and not "persecuted" or "tortured". I am drawing an important distinction here between banning this group (a justifiable and even necessary action within the context of Chinese law and culture), and how the ban has been enforced.


 * Your observation that both the CCP and the Falun Gong (or Li Hongzhi) are liers points out the absurdity of how the Falun Gong story has been treated in the West. At least one Western academic has suggested that the battle between Falun Gong and the CCP is a conflict between two totalitarian regimes. But actually, China is working to reform itself, and these reforms include holding corrupt local officials accountable for their actions and allowing the beginning of democratic elections at the local level. It's a start.  For Li, however, the entire rectification of the cosmos (which he himself directs) requires the destruction of the CCP.  It doesn't matter what label we put on this objective...the practitioners will go to their graves (or Falun Gong paradise) swearing that they are not political.  But what does matter is that the Western media should start seeing the conflict for what it is.


 * My mother taught me as a child that two wrongs do not make a right. This precept fits the Falun Gong situation quite well. On the one hand, to the extent that practitioers are being persecuted in China, that is clearly a moral wrong.  However, it is also wrong to allow the Falun Gong to continue to lie about it's true teachings and objectives to Western politicians and the press. And if you believe, as I and many cult experts do, that Li Hongzhi is a manipulative cult leader whose control over his disciples' thinking breaks up families and threatens the health of practitioners, then there is a whole lot more that needs to be exposed about the Falun Gong as well. --Tomananda 01:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As to your offer to mediate, we were hoping to get an official mediator from the mediation committee. --Tomananda 01:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda,

Even if FLG's true objective was to eliminate the CCP, it is still not a political movement. People who are involved in politics seek political power... or helping someone else obtain political power. FLG practitioners claim to seek "nothing in the human world." So why would they be interested in human politics and political power? If they practice FLG in hopes of returning to "Falun Paradise" why would they care what kind of governement is in China?

I think it was nessecarry for Falun Gong to spread the Nine Commentaries, because it was the only way for them to save their practitioners being tortured in the labor camps, and the millions of other Chinese people decieved by the lies of the CCP. It is a dual thing. It's brings the 100+ years of persecution of the CCP to light, while at the same time destroying it, giving the Chinese people the opportunity to rule their own country however they see fit, free from the tryanny and violence of the CCP. The CCP is a pretty evil organization. Tell me what you think.

One more thing.

Even if FLG were a brainwashing cult, I don't see anything evil about their "brainwashing teachings". What's wrong with Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance? What's so bad about eliminating Communism from the world? Nothing that I see FLG doing in this world is evil or bad.

I think they are doing good for the world. Communism is athiest and promotes violence and struggle. As I see it, the FLG are promoting non-violent removal of the CCP so that the Chinese people can choose whatever kind of government they want for themselvs. It's not like Li Hongzhi is about to become the new president of China, right?

FLG is definitely not involved in politics. They meditate and read books, and destroy the CCP. So what?

Heshi,

daniel price


 * Daniel, thank you for speaking the truth and amitting that a goal of the Falun Gong is to destroy the CCP (through means such as the spreading of the Nine Commentatries). Again, I don't care whether this counts as a "political"  objective or a "spiritual" objective.  The important thing is that we are trying to write an enclyclopedia article, and I am open to your constructions on this issue as long as they are honest.  So far you have said "the FLG are promoting non-violent removal of the CCP so that teh Chinese people can choose whatever kind of government they want for themselves."  Would you be willing to add the spiritual component into this equation and say something like:


 * A primary goal of the Falun Gong is to promote the non-violent removal of the CCP through such means as spreading the Nine Commentaries and exposing what the Falun Gong considers to be the persecution of its followers in China. According to Master Li, exposing the CCP is an essential component of Falun Gong culitivation practice during this period of Fa-rectification.  Ever since the ban in 1999, Master Li has increasingly focused on the importance of Fa-rectification, a process in which all being in the cosmos are judged by the Dafa, with the result that beings who do not think the Dafa is good, and those fail to support the Falun Gong in its efforts to expose the evil nature of the CCP, will be the first to be weeeded out.


 * How about that for a starting paragraph? Please feel free to suggest changes in the wording, but at least it is a start.  --Tomananda 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey Tomananda,

You said:

You can go all the way back to March, 2006 in the archives and find tomananda postings asking practitioners to write something about Fa-rectification, consumation and Li's promise to turn practitioners into gods if they do their duty as Fa-rectification period Dafa disciples, which means expose the "evil, wicked" CCP. Clearly, Li equates salvation for practitioners with the objective of destroying the CCP. I know you can point out that according to Li it's the gods who will destroy the CCP, not any human beings on earth. But those are weasel words. It's clear that practitioners constantly work to destroy the CCP by:

* illegally jamming the tranmissions of the main Chinese TV station to broadcast pro-FG propaganda * writing letters to people in main land China asking them to condemn the CCP * getting US politicians to pass resolutions condemning the CCP for its alleged persecution of FG   * spreading the Nine Commentaries to people in mainland China. (The Nine Commentaries is as close to a declaration of revolution as anything I've ever read. It's the Chinese version of Thomas Paine's Common Sense.)

Specifically, I'm interested in this line that you said. You said:

"Li's promise to turn practitioners into gods if they do their duty as Fa-rectification period Dafa disciples, which means expose the "evil, wicked" CCP. Clearly, Li equates salvation for practitioners with the objective of destroying the CCP. I know you can point out that according to Li it's the gods who will destroy the CCP, not any human beings on earth."

I think the point that you are missing here is that, the Falun Gong people who are distributing the Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party are the "Gods who will destroy the CCP." I think the Falun Gong people are Gods....

random oberserver

Well, I think that you haven't read enough Falun Gong teachings to know what you're talking about Mr. Random observer. It's really not as simple as what you're suggesting, and are your totally off on the idea of the "gods" being practitioners. Alot of the antis here love to try to simplify things like this, but it only creates ambiguity, which leads to misunderstandings. A lot of things are included in whether a practitioner can consumate, and all of them have to be done well. The basis of this is cultivation based on Mr. Li's teachings, then you have righteous thoughts and clarifying the truth on top of that. And then you have things related to exposing the party (which is really something within clarifying the truth). Of course, there is lots of context to understand why this, why it wasn't before, and why it won't be in the future. I think that if you're really looking through all the old discussions then you'll probably also find myself and other editors saying how these kinds of things can be included, just not the way Tomanda and some of the others have in mind. It's not about censoring, it's about proper context.

I agree with Tomanda that we are a waiting for official mediation, and that because of this we shouldn't accept your offer, Colipon. Actually, I don't know if it would really be a good idea to have a mediator who already has such a strong opinion on the subject at hand, although you are more than welcome to join the editing team. As for Tomanda's rant, I don't have much to say. We've heard it all before, we've responded, and it's getting kind of old now. That's really not the way it is, but if you want to believe that it's your choice. Mcconn 17:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Mcconn: You and the other Falun Gong practitioners have heard this argument before, but have done nothing to propose your own edits which cover the topic of Fa-rectificatioin (what it is and why it is important for Falun Gong practitioners.) No one has ever suggested that this article can't report the basic ideas of Falun Gong cultivation, which include the importance of having righteous thoughts and clarifying the truth. Nor does anyone object to your pointing out that "clarifying the truth" during this period of Fa-rectification especially includes exposing the "evil and wicked"  CCP.


 * What we do object to is that practitioners continue to fail in their job as editors in Wikipedia, spending endless words arguing points that are distractions to the essential task at hand. In Wikispeak, we call this apologetics and you guys are masters of this art.


 * Actually, we've made some progress in the above discussion. At long last several practitioners have admitted that a goal of the Falung Gong is to destroy the CCP. Yet you come along with the same old tired arguments about context, etc.  Our challenge as editors is to provide that context, but at the same time report all the important stuff. Fa-rectification, and the requirement that practitioners work to destroy the CCP through peaceful means as part of what Li calls "clarifying the truth" in order to reach salvation and help save all sentient beings in the cosmos, are important concepts in Falun Gong, are they not?  So rather than continuing to attack me, why don't you for a change propose actually write something that reports this material in a simple and straight forward way?  It is my belief that you can't, because Master Li has prohibited you from talking about the teachings "at the higher levels" when clarifying the truth to ordinary people.  Here's an opportunity for you to prove me wrong by demonstrating that you can write about Fa-rectification in your own words (or by indirectly quoting Li as I have done).  This is also an opportunity to make progress in this article, which is why we are all here.  So please, do me the honor of reviewing the draft paragraph I have proposed in my post to Daniel above.  Thanks!  --Tomananda 19:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Question,

Mcconn, are you a Falun Gong practitioner?

random oberserver

Tomananda,

Actually, you're paragraph was not that bad, perhaps we could have such a paragraph in the article, I don't know. But an important thing to remember, is that we should have direct quotes from Master Li rather then paraphrases or individual practitioners or non-practitioners' understandings. Do you know what I mean? For instance, your paragraph said:

"According to Master Li, exposing the CCP is an essential component of Falun Gong culitivation practice during this period of Fa-rectification. Ever since the ban in 1999, Master Li has increasingly focused on the importance of Fa-rectification, a process in which all being in the cosmos are judged by the Dafa, with the result that beings who do not think the Dafa is good, and those fail to support the Falun Gong in its efforts to expose the evil nature of the CCP, will be the first to be weeeded out."

This paragraph should instead of saying, "According to Master Li,...." we should have direct quotes from his lectures, or, nothing at all. It is harmful to any spiritual practice or spiritual teachings, to have the students or non-students spread what they heard as the teachings, or what they understand as the teachings. This was a problem that the religion of Buddhism faced. It should instead be repeated with direct quotes from Master Li. The paragraph mentions the right things, but it should be quoted directly, and then with explanations and understandings of whomever is writing.

For example, this poem would be fitting:

For the Good of the World Make clear the truth, and drive off foul spirits. Spread widely the Nine Commentaries, and the wicked Party shall fade. With righteous thoughts, save the world's people. I just don't believe their consciences are irretrievably lost.

Li Hongzhi June 15, 2006, in Philadelphia

daniel price


 * No, Daniel, we cannot restrict ourselves to direct quotes from Master Li in this article. As with any encylopedia article, we must provide clear and concise exposition of the subject.  In doing this, we can introduce some direct quotes from Li, but those direct quotes do not replace the exposition that is needed.  You say you like the paragraph I have written above.  I ask you to read it again and tell me if it contains any incaccuracies or inappropriate words.  If the paragraph is accurate and written in accordance with the NPOV policy, then why not let the paragraph stand as is, with the understanding that we can follow up with a direct quote from Li?   Regardless of how you may feel personally about this issue, we cannot allow this Wikipedia article to become nothing more than a compiliation of Li quotes.  This is an enclycopedia article, not a "greatest writing of Master Li"  primer. --Tomananda 19:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * PS: Forgot to mention that I understand your concern about accuracy in reporting Li's teachings. But there's no reason why we can't summarize key points in Li's teachings through indirect quotes without sacrificing accuracy. If you read my proposed summaries carefully, you will see that I seldom "paraphrase"  Li's words.  Instead, I construct summaries which use Li's vocabulary exactly. This is standard practice in writing summaries and does not mean one loses any thing in accuracy. I keep waiting for some equivalent writing to come from the pracitioners.  So far, I've seen some examples of this kind of summary in the persecution and cultivation sections, but nothing yet on Fa-rectification and salvation.  --Tomananda 22:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda,

I think you misunderstood, I didn't want to restrict it to just quotes from Master Li. Your paragraph was basically perfect by me, I don't know what the others think. I just wanted it to be followed up with quotes from Master Li, like the poem I sent to you. Your paragraph was fine by me, I just wanted it followed with maybe a couple poems, like these two...

"Cleaning Out

The dark clouds have passed

yet winds remain fierce

Though the Red Dragon is slain

humans are still confused

Where there is Evil

there is dark, dense haze

Dafa disciples

hold the palm erect

Eliminate the remaining Evil

summon righteous thoughts

Clarify the truth

rescue the sentient beings

Thoroughly annihilate the Evil

and sweep the entire cosmos clean"

and

"For the Good of the World Make clear the truth, and drive off foul spirits. Spread widely the Nine Commentaries, and the wicked Party shall fade. With righteous thoughts, save the world's people. I just don't believe their consciences are irretrievably lost."

Tomananda,

I just thought of something that might help you understand more why practitioners do not like to talk about Fa-Rectification, and the more difficult things to understand about practitioners' lives and the Falun Gong teachings.

Practitioners consider their Falun Gong cultivation a very sacred and holy thing, and we don't like having all kinds of non-Falun Gong practitioners and commentaries mixed into the middle of our cultivation. It is simialar to how certain churches don't allow cameras inside, and how they may try to avoid the media. We feel these things take away from the sacredness of what we consider our sacred, holy duties.

Practitioners are not trying to hide anything from the public, we just don't want to be misunderstood, and we want to keep our things holy and sacred, and avoid turning it into some big public thing for anyone to come and video tape or mix in their own commentaries. If people really want to know more about Falun Gong, they should just come and read the books right?

I agree with what you are saying, the article should include a brief summary of the Falun Gong teachings, along with a short summary and commentary on what practitioners are doing during this historical period, i.e. clarifying the truth and eliminating the CCP. It's just, with some things, words can only say so much, and maybe they can't capture the true meaning of what you are thinking or trying to depict. Some times, trying to put things into words might take away from the subject.

Let me know if this helps you understand.

I'm going to keep checking in to make sure everything gets cleared up ok?

daniel price


 * Tomanda, where are you suggesting that the abovementioned paragraph be within the article? Daniel, please get a user account. Mcconn 08:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda in response to you: The primary reason we are spreading jiuping is to save people. That is the essential purpose behind it. The three things that Master has asked Dafa disciples to do in this special historic period are to study the Fa, clarify the truth, and send forth righteous thoughts. That should be explained in the context of Fa-rectification and salvation. Truly, I want to write something up for you, but this is not a simple matter... so when you say we are admitting openly to trying to destroy the CCP, perhaps it is not that simple. We are saying that the CCP will fall. It is against the universe, it is too corrupt, and it is just destroying itself. There is that saying 'honour among thieves', but if the thieves start robbing from each other, then they will even destroy themselves. Something needs virtue to exist. The CCP is an evil specter and such a thing will inevitably cannibalise itself. It's a sinking ship and we're trying to get as many people off it as possible. All those who can get off, we are trying to get them off. Daniel Price send me an email please, my email is on my userpage. Click on my name.

We will give you something on Consummation, Fa-rectification, how it implicates the CCP and is manifesting in this dimension (spreading jiuping for starters), and everything. We will clearly spell out every aspect of the teachings of Dafa as they pertain to this special historical period, you don't need to worry. By the way, there is an explanation on the criticisms page which is not bad. Also, on the criticisms page I have raised an issue that you have not responded to. When I get some more time I'll fix that section up then move on to the next one. -- --Asdfg12345 15:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I am quite sorry to say that I am immensely dissapointed by your responses (with a few notable exceptions). I am also dissapointed at the fact that I have an old Falun Gong pamphlet that I got while taking a walk in a park with my wife in early '99, and I wish to scan it for the world to see, but can't because I dont' have a scanner (Li Hongzhi's obviously photoshopped image in the pamphlet portraying lotus and glorious rays, I must say, makes Mao's Cultural Revolution posters look professional, and makes the CPC's current propaganda department breathe a sigh of relief at their own inability to promote "Socialism with Chinese Characterstics"), maybe the contents too, because they have nothing to do with any ulterior objective or desires, and all truthful! And of course, because very few people here know of certain FLG practices before the ban, and experienced it first hand, what I'm saying must all be fabricated. Some local CPC hive decided to print random Falun Gong pamphlets to make Li Hongzhi look ridiculous so we can make fun of him, and bring him up as proof later that Falun Gong is actually a very doubtful organization. Of course! All a fabrication! Or it was a misunderstanding. Because maybe half a lifetime of mine spent in China suffering CCP's political movements and having close family that have been traumatized by them, maybe then I've somehow decided to become an unknowing minion of the CCP, and love them so much that my perception of Falun Gong is automatically skewed as evil and cult-like.

Wake up.

Colipon+(T) 20:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well Colipon, regardless of your reasons, you are clearly on one side of the fence. Thus, there is no way that you will be our mediator. -Mcconn 13:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Is Truthfullness an absolute or relative value for the Dafa?
Daniel: Thanks for explaining why Falun Gong practitioners are reluctant to speak truthfully about the beliefs and goals of the Falun Gong to non-practitioners.

I appreciate that you shared your insights with us, but wonder if you have considered the implications of what you are saying. You suggest that certain truths of the Falun Gong should remain hidden within the confines of the Falun Gong community…rather like the policy of some churches of not allowing cameras inside. You acknowledge something I have been saying all along: that “practitioners do not like to talk about Fa-rectification and the more difficult things to understand about practitioner’s lives and the Falun Gong teachings.”    And you go on to offer a psychological explanation for this reticence:  that because practitioners consider their cultivation practices to be “very sacred” they avoid telling the complete truth about their beliefs because “we don’t like having all kinds of non-Falun Gong practitioners and commentaries mixed into the middle of our cultivation.”

Here’s the problem in what your are saying: if speaking the truth of the Dafa is contingent upon the reaction of other people, then Dafa itself cannot be based on an absolute principle of the universe called “truthfulness. Instead, Dafa is based on a relative principle of truthfulness: that we should speak the truth to non-practitioners only when we think what we say will not elicit a negative reaction or undermine one of our strategic goals (like eliminating the CCP).

Admittedly, this kind of philosophical distinction may not concern you. Does it really matter whether “truthfulness” is an absolute or a relative value? Even though Li seems to teach that truthfulness is an absolute principle of the universe, he could always issue a declaration on “The limits of truthfulness” just as he once did on “The limits of forbearance.”   There is no end to the Master’s adaptability.

But I want you to consider another ramification for what you are saying: if practitioners continue to conceal their higher truths to non-practitioners (for example, what you are willing to report in Wikipedia) then how can we believe what you say about the persecution or other important matters? So long as you maintain the right to withhold the complete truth of your beliefs and practices in Wikipedia, do you really think the rest of the non-practitioner world can take you seriously?

Most people do not like being lied to, so my advice to you and every other practitioner who edits here is to reconsider your position. Already, some practitioner editors have posted truthful statements, but those truthful statements are quickly shot down by other editors who wish to maintain a false image of the Falun Gong to the general public. For the purposes of Wikipedia editing only, I am therefore proposing that we agree to: Let’s take a poll on this proposal now:  All editors who agree that these two aspects of Falun Gong are true,  and notable enough to be reported in this article,  please indicate with your agreement below:
 * Acknowledging that a goal of the Falun Gong is the destruction of the CCP (through such means as spreading the Nine Commentaries, as promoted by Master Li) and
 * Acknowledging that Master Li is more than just a teacher or master, he also has a divine status and is considered by his disciples to be a main Buddha.


 * I agree. --Tomananda 22:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with those two acknowledgements.

Danielprice 18:11, 29 August 2006 (CT)
 * I agree. I also have some comments on what you wrote, I will put them below this poll. --Asdfg12345 23:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You will see I have struck out my affirmation of your points, and I apologise for chopping and changing. You cannot define this Fa. I made the affirmation in haste in order not to appear wishy-washy about all this. Everything that Master has taught is Fa. What you have written is not Fa. What you have written is not exactly correct, anyway. The article will be written and it will include everything, but there is no need for this poll. As long as it is in the Fa, and with context, it is no problem for it to be discussed and included. I will be much more careful with everything I type into wikipedia in future, as I regret this. Read what I wrote below and you have my sincere apologies. --Asdfg12345 00:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

You have turned the things Daniel said into something they are not. I will address the problems I see with what you have written, and so much for wanting to keep the discussion page strictly for discussion on the actual article.

you wrote: "if speaking the truth of the Dafa is contingent upon the reaction of other people, then Dafa itself cannot be based on an absolute principle of the universe called “truthfulness.  Instead, Dafa is based on a relative principle of truthfulness: that we should speak the truth to non-practitioners only when we think what we say will not elicit a negative reaction or undermine one of our strategic goals (like eliminating the CCP)."

We speak the truth about Dafa to everyday people. We say Falun Dafa is cultivation practice, based on the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance. One refines their thoughts and conduct based on those principles, becoming better and better. We try to give up all ill thoughts and attachments, with the goal to assimilate to the characteristic of the universe and return to our true selves. Those kinds of things. All of that is something along the lines of what Dafa teaches. That is just what I wrote then, my own understanding. You must know by now the volume of scriptures there are in the Dafa teachings. If we meet someone for a brief moment, are we supposed to sum all that up in two or three minutes? Talking about higher dimensions, the Fa-rectification, Consummation, and Buddhas? Most people do not take such an intense interest in this as you have. If I had a while to talk to someone, and they expressed a lot of interest in the basic things I had explained to them, I would talk further. However it goes, cultivation takes time and effort, so people will never understand this in one go.

Basically, we have said that it is fine for all this to go on wikipedia and that we have nothing to conceal or be afraid of. It really would not make sense to talk about these things to the people we meet on the street, or include it in pamphlets we give out to people. One of the main points of interaction we have with the public is raising awareness of the brutal atrocities committed by the CCP towards Falun Gong. It is enough to get someone to accept a flier, we might be lucky if they read it, and it is a very rare person who can spare a couple of minutes to chat with us. That is the typical situation while doing truth-clarification work in public. Basically, we are reading some books and meditating, trying to get rid of all our bad thoughts and behaviours, and assimilate ourselves to Truthfulness, Compassion, Tolerance. We are also spreading jiuping and other material and sending righteous thoughts. There is nothing wrong with any of that. That is how Falun Dafa manifests in this dimension. You have downloaded some pdfs off the net and now you consider yourself an expert.

There is no way these things can ever be understood in a simple way. All this requires a base of personal cultivation, and that is something very difficult. You do not understand what Dafa is. This is an extremely upright thing. There is no question of concealing anything. People can go download that stuff, as you have found. If someone approached me and said he's been reading all this stuff and wants to know what I think, I'd spell it out for him then and there. He could then make up his own mind as to whether he believed it or not. It is not a problem for people to find out about this, what we are doing and what we believe. But to make sure that it is not misunderstood, that it is explained cleary and in its entirety, undistorted, and that the key points are made - that is something more difficult. There is no sense in doing that on a large scale and as a rule. Our goal is to save sentient beings before the Fa rectifies the human world, and talking about this could confuse some people and even lead them to develop ill thoughts about Dafa. --Asdfg12345 23:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

One more thing I want to say about the destruction of the CCP thing. That is more like an inevitable consequence rather than a specific goal. For example, if the CCP turned around and stopped persecuting Falun Gong tommorow then obviously we would not continue doing all this stuff. We have only ever called for an end to the persecution, and in doing so we have distributed jiuping, talking about the history of the CCP and contextualising the persecution of Falun Gong in terms of the evil nature of the CCP. The CCP is not going to turn around and stop persecuting Falun Gong tomorrow. It has gone too far for them, they would have to answer to very many people, and they would have to admit that they have been doing evil, many things - so that is very unlikely. The CCP's fall is no more than a result of their persecution of Falun Gong. In that sense, I do not strictly agree that the goal is to destroy the CCP. That will happen, though, but if they stopped then we would stop. It has always been that way, this is an important thing to mention, and it needs to be mentioned. As for the other point that I acknowledged, that should also be explained in a different way. As far as I know you only get that word Main Buddha from that painting, as Master Li has not referred to himself that way. I know you want to draw a distinction between Master Li and a normal Master or saviour, and that is fine too. Sorry to add this disclaimer type of message. Basically those two points are not far off the mark, but there is more to it. --Asdfg12345 23:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Asdfg: Sorry, but you do not speak the truth about Dafa to ordinary people, instead you speak the broad platitudes of Dafa...we believe in Truthfullness, Benevolence and Forebearance...without really divulging the most important points for Fa-rectification Dafa disciples. When was the last time you said to any "ordinary person"  that your job is to help eliminate the CCP and help save all sentient beings or that you expect to reach consumation because of your role as a Fa-rectification Dafa disciple?  When was the last time you ackowledged to an ordinary person Li Hongzhi's divine status and that he and his Dafa are offering the only hope for salvation mankind has?  In fact, when was the last time you even used words like "Fa-rectification"  or "salvation"  to an ordinary person?


 * Clearly you don't do these things and my explanation is different from Daniels. My explanation is that as cult members, Falun Gong practitioners have lost their ability to think independently from Master Li's words.  This explains why no practitioner has written any edits on Fa-rectification and Li's role in providing salvation to mankind, or the role of Fa-rectification disciples in helping Li to save all sentient beings.  We have spent months dancing around these issues, and with the exception of Daniel's recent revelations (thank you Daniel), we have made no progress.


 * For those who think that the CCP fabricated the term "cult" to describe the Falun Gong, please consider these observations from cult counselor Steve Hassan:


 * In essence, a destructive cult is an authoritarian group that is headed by a person or group of people that has near-complete control. Charismatic cult leaders often make extreme claims of divine or "otherwordly" power to exercise influence over their members.  Many legitimate religions have had powerful figures who have inspired enormous dedication in people.  Being a powerful leader is not inherently wrong, though it carries a high potential for abuse.  A group becomes destructive when its leader actively uses such power to deceive members and to rob them of their individuality and free will.


 * Many cults have their own "loaded language" or coded symbols and expressions, including buzz words, cliches, and trite platitudes that are used to shut down the thought process.


 * Cult members are taught that the leader is always correct, and are not allowed to doubt or question him or her.


 * Cult ideologies allow for many levels of "truth" including "outsider" and "insider" doctrines. the more moderate outsider material, which contains diluted versions of the group's beliefs, is given to the general public and new converts.  Recruits who ask questions are often told that they are not yet mature enough to know the whole truth.


 * Don't these descriptions sound an awful lot like the Falun Gong? And since I am an outsider, of course you guys don't want to reveal the "heavenly secrets"  or teachings "at a higher level" to me and the rest of the world.  Instead, you want me accept your program of demonizing and destroying the CCP without any critical judgment, accept that the Dafa really is "good" and otherwise keep my mouth shut.  Sometimes you guys even threaten law suits or jail time to your critics.


 * Frankly, I am tired of this charade. Would some other rational person who is not indoctrinated into the cult of Li Hongzhi please step forward and post something?  --Tomananda 00:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I said that there is no problem with an exposition of the teachings, and other practitioners have also affirmed that we will write something. Your own theories of Falun Gong being a cult do not have any credence here. The page is locked now and we are waiting for a mediator. I have lost enthusiasm in this at the moment. When the time to move forward comes then, if I can help, I will help and try to come up with something. You have seen that we are speaking in a straightfoward way to you and explaining things based on our own understanding, about why we don't talk about these things very commonly. This post indicates that you are not interested in hearing that, and more regrettably, that you have even started sympathising with the CCP on this issue. That is the worst part. Olaf told you before that all we are asking people to realise is the horror of the persecution and to be against the persecution, and then you can be saved. If, when faced with something this straightfoward, innocent people being tortured in all kinds of incredibly evil ways (http://www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/ - please refresh your memory), living people having their organs taken for profit and then their bodies incinerated... if you cannot be against this, then you tell me what kind of person you are. --Asdfg12345 01:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Total misrepresentation of my position! I do not condone the persecution of practitioners in China or elsewhere. But by painting me as a pro-persecution kind of guy, you are changing the subject which is getting the Falun Gong to be honest about it's teachings and goals. As I've said repeatedly, I do not trust the Falun Gong to speak the truth to me.  As Li himself says:
 * "It is not allowed to casually disclose so many heavenly secrets to ordinary people." Zhuan Falun, 2nd edition, p. 91.
 * I will say it one more time: Two wrongs do not make a right.  It is wrong for anyone to persecute Falun Gong practitioners.  It is also wrong for the Falun Gong to lie about it's teachings and goals in order to manipulate the gullible press and Western politicians.  The moment you start being honest with me...and all of Wikipedia readers....will be the moment I will take another look at all those persecution claims.   --Tomananda 01:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, I admire your patience and persistence. Last time I checked, however, people trapped by cult-inflicted emotions and beliefs don't just agree with you every time you tell them something rational. I could guarantee you that at this moment, that even after mediation, this article will present a very noticeable pro-FLG bias (plz also take the time to read the recently modified FLG section on the History of the People's Republic of China article that completely deamonized the CCP), simply because the majority of Wikipedians in participation are only familiar with the western side of the story, and secondly because it is largely not rationale that is employed in the writing of the article, but rather emotion. Colipon+(T) 02:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Tomanda, you're totally taking that quote out of context and Olaf already explained why a few weeks ago. We don't lie. I know that you know that the beliefs that you are referring to exist and that Falun Dafa encompases more than what most people know, and thus want people to understand or know about these other aspects, so that they don't have the "wrong" understanding of Falun Gong. I understand your perspective, so please try to understand ours. I don't doubt that many of the people we have come into contact with (polititians included) who have made efforts to understand us have come to understand that we have these beliefs. But as Asdfg12345 already said, most of the people we talk with do not have such interests and in the two minutes we talk to them for we only have time to talk about the fundamentals of Falun Dafa cultivation. Our biggest concern is having people understand the persecution, so naturally this is where our focus is. Truth, Compassion, and Forbearance are the fundamental principles of Falun Dafa, and cultiviting your heart according to these prinicples is what's most emphasised and most important in the practice (even in recent lecures, Mr. Li still makes this clear). At the same time, it's not difficult to have people understand these, so naturally when we talk to people about Dafa this is what we emphasise. Yes, there are other very important beliefs in Falun Dafa, mostly comming about in recent years, but despite their great importance they are still not as fundamental as the above points in understanding Falun Dafa, and are comparably much harder to understand. If I thought that by talking about the Fa-Rectification to people they could understand it correctly, then I certainly would (and with some people I have), but it's not likely that they will. So, usually I don't. And like I said, our focus is the persecution, so it's counterproductive to get into the lengthy discussion that that would entail, and being such a shocking or "strange" thing, it would naturally shift that focus. If you try to understand what I'm saying, I think you will see that this isn't about conceiling truth or creating some big façad, like you say; instead, it's about not creating misunderstandings, focusing on the task at hand, and thus sticking to the basics. This has been said a number of times, but you don't accept it and insist on twisting it.

No practitioner here has written about these things on wikipedia because: There may be more reasons that I'm not listing. Actually, I've been working on and off on a section about the Fa-Rectification and most of these things. It's not done yet though. Mcconn 15:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) it's not easy to explain them. In fact, it's quite an undertaking.
 * 2) we have been focusing on the intro, in which we don't believe such things should be included.
 * 3) There are simpler and more basic things that still need to be worked on.
 * 4) You've kept us pretty busy cleaning up all your other edits.


 * More weasel words from a devout Falun Gong practitioner who still refuses to accept that the concept of Fa-rectification and the idea that the Dafa offers the only chance for salvation for people during this period of the last havoc or final kulpa should appear in the introduction to this article! We are living in the end of times and Li is offering salvation to all sentient beings. Li's disciples are helping to save people and to the extent they live up to their duty to "clarify the truth"  and work towards eliminating the CCP these same disciples are promised the status of gods by Master Li.  You are all on a mission to save all of us non-belivers, yet you cannot even speak honestly about what your true role is, other than to expose the CCP for it's alleged persecution of practitioners in China.  You do lie about the Falun Gong, and yet I truly believe you don't recognize what you are doing because Li has so successfully brainwashed you.  So in a moral sense, you are not lying...only Li is, and he is therefore responsible.


 * As I said before, I am tired of repeating myself. You will never agree to an honest exposition of Li's teachings because Li himself forbids that level of honesty with "ordinary people."  You have your internal doctrine which you feel you can't share with the outside world and your external doctrine which is nothing more than a cleverly packaged PR image to gain sympathy and support for your group in its battle to undermine and ultimately destroy the Chinese Communist Party.  I believe  these last 6 months worth of discussion will reveal to any reasonable readers the truth of what I am saying.


 * Here in America there seems to be a growing awareness of the destructive nature of cults and how they distort people's rationality. Just yesterday a cult leader named Warren Jeffs, who like Li taught end-of-the world prophesies, was found and arrested for alleged crimes, including having sex with minors.  My hope is that some day the American media will look behind Falun Gong's carefully constructed public image and begin to report on the dark side of Falun Gong: the way Li manipulates his followers and deceives the public.


 * For now, I am going to take a break from these endless postings because I don't think they are leading to any progress in this article. I will, however, respond to any specific editing issues that arise.  --Tomananda 18:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Teehee... with normal cults (if you can call cults normal), the adherents would be busy pushing the full gamut of their ideological/religious stances on Wikipedia. With Falun Gong however... -- Миборо в ский 18:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats a great attempt to mediate...--Andres18 05:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Definition of cults in Chinese and English
Миборо в ский A group having weird beliefs is not a cult. A cult always conceals its core teachings for the purpose of recruitment which is the first step of brianwashing.

The International cultic Studies Association provides the following definition of cults: A group or movement exhibiting great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing, and employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it), designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.

邪教的定义 一个组织或社会运动对一个人, 一种思想, 或一样物件表现出过分的, 极端的忠诚和奉献精神, 并使用不道德的思想控制技巧去说服和操纵组织成员 (例, 把信徒从亲人和朋友中隔离开来, 使信徒极端疲劳以至无法认真思考, 使用特别的方法令到信徒对教主越来越顺从, 强大的组织压力, 对信息的控制, 破坏个人的自主性和判断力, 使信徒对组织产生依赖性和害怕离开). 组织的努力方向以教主的日标为主, 为了达到该目标, 不惜使用可能或实际上对信徒或他们的家庭以至社会有害的方式.

Three characteristics, which may be present to a greater of lesser degree, help to distinguish cults from other communities or groups. 1. Members are expected to be excessively zealous and unquestioning in their commitment to the identity and leadership of the group. They must replace their own beliefs and values with those of the group. 2. Members are manipulated and exploited, and may give up their education, careers, and families to work excessively long hours at group-directed task such as selling a quota of candy or books, fund-raising, recruiting, and proselytizing. 3. Harm or the threat of harm may come to members, their families, and/or society due to inadequate medical care, poor nutrition, psychological and physical abuse, sleep deprivation, criminal activities, and so forth.

三个特点可以把邪教从普通组织中分辩出来, 这三个特点的存在可能会有多有少. 1. 信徒们变得过份地热心, 毫不怀疑地献身于该组织的事务和对教主的忠诚. 他们被要求用组织的信仰和价值观去代替他们原来的信仰和价值观. 2. 信徒们被控制与利用, 他们可能会放弃其学业, 职业和家庭去长时间地从事组织指定的工作, 如卖组织的书或糖果, ?款, 招收新会员和传教. 3. 信徒们本人, 他们的家庭或/和社会可能会受到伤害. 这些伤害来自于不足够的医疗服务, 缺少营养, 心理或生理上的伤害, 不足够的睡眠, 犯罪行为以及其它.

Deception lies at the core of mind-manipulating cultic groups and programs. Many members and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which they have been abused and exploited. The following list of characteristics helps to define such groups. 1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment. 2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. 3. The group is preoccupied with making money. 4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. 5. mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). 6. The leadership dictates—sometimes in great detail—how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth). 7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity). 8. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society. 9. The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations). The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have consider unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities). 10. The leadership induces feelings of guilt in members in order to control them. 11. Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family, friends, and personal group goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group. 12. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group. 13. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

欺骗是使用心理控制技巧的邪教最常用的方法. 邪教信徒和支持者们对他们本身受到的欺骗和被利用并不了解. 以下的一些特点可以帮助找出这些邪教. 1. 邪教信徒们祟拜的是一个在生的教主, 他们对该教主表现出过分的忠诚和不经怀疑与思考地为该邪教服务. 2. 该组织的主要目标以招收新成员为主. 3. 该组织的主要目标以增加收入为主. 4. 对组织的教义和行为提出疑问和反对是不被鼓励的, 甚至会因此而被处罚. 5. 使用令人心灵变得麻木的技巧去停止信徒们对该组织和教主产生疑问. 这些技巧包括打坐入静, 唱圣歌和背诵诗句, 自我谴责的检讨, 令人极端疲劳的工作等. 6. 教主和领导层决定信徒们怎样思考, 做什么, 和感觉什么(例: 信徒们要从教主处得到准许才能去约会情人, 改变工作, 结婚; 教主可以决定信徒穿什么, 在那里居住, 怎样教育小孩等等. 教主这种种规定有时会到绝对的程度.  7. 该组织成员认为自己是精英份子, 教主是最伟大的个体, 该组织是最神圣的组织 (例: 该组织的教主被认为是救世主或神与佛的化身, 该组织和其教主从事着拯救人类的工作).  8. 该组织有一种两极的带对抗性的,我们对抗他们的思想, 这种思想会与社会产生摩擦.  9. 该组织的教主不需要服从于任何权威和法律. 该组织教导或暗示信徒们可以为了其认为好的目标而使用不道德的手段去活动.  10. 该组织引发信徒们产生罪恶感, 然后以此来控制他们.  11. 信徒对组织的忠诚, 切断或伤害到他们与其家人和朋友的关系, 也改变了他们原来的人生目标和感兴趣的活动.  12. 信徒们被要求付出不正常数量的时间在组织的活动上.  13. 信徒们被鼓励或被要求只和其它组织内的信徒来往.

Dr. Margaret Singer’s characteristics relevant to cult identification, some of them highlight the role of the cult leader. 1. Cults are authoritarian in their power structure. 2. Cults tend to be totalitarian in their control of the behavior of their members. 3. Cults tend to have double sets of ethics (one for the leader and another for the members; one for those inside the group, another for dealing with outsiders). 4. Cult leaders are self-appointed and claim to have a special mission in life. 5. Cult leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. 6. Cult leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. 7. Cults appear to be innovative and exclusive. 8. Cults basically have only two purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising.

Margaret Singer博士列出了几点邪教的特点, 其中的一些主要说明了邪教主的角色. 1. 邪教的权力结构是独裁式的领导结构. 2. 邪教通常以极权方式去控制信徒们的行为. 3. 邪教通常有双重的道德标准, (给教主的是一套, 给信徒够又是另一套; 在邪教内讲一套, 在与社会接触时又讲另一套. ) 4. 邪教主是自封的, 他们都自称其生命有着特殊的意义. 5. 邪教主们通常富有魅力, 意志坚定并专横跋扈. 6. 邪教主们在邪教中提倡个人崇拜, 使信徒们崇拜教主. 7. 邪教通常使用新方式行事并有排外的思想. 邪教一般来讲只有两个目标: 招收新成员和收集资金.

By Those Definitions, Falun Gong is Not a Cult
1. Falun Gong has no power structure. All practitioners are simply students. There is only one teacher, Master Li Hongzhi.

2. I practice Falun Gong, no one tells me what to do. I can do whatever I want. I don't have to "clarify the truth," I only do this because I hate to see practitioners abused and tortured in China.

3. Master Li Hongzhi lives by his own teachings. He only talks about what he can do, and he doesn't talk about what he can't do.

4. Many people claim to have special missions in their lives. Maybe a musician says his mission in life is to spread beautiful music. A priest's mission in life is to promote his own religion, so what is wrong with being self-appointed and claiming a special mission in life? If Li Hongzhi founded Falun Gong, who else could have been appointed as leader? It is after all his practice.

5. Li Hongzhi is far from domineering, he is a believer in non-violence, compassion, and cherishment of life. He is perhaps charismatic, and in my experiences he is definitely determined. What is wrong with that?

6. Li Hongzhi accepts no gifts, and he does not seek veneration from his students. He doesn't even let his students pay for their own meals when they dine together.

7. Falun Gong practitioners do not recruit, people come to learn the gong on their own. Also, Falun Gong does not collect any money, and there is never any fund-raising.

Falun Gong is not a cult by any of those definitions of a cult.

Maybe by some definitions and some people's perceptions Falun Gong is a cult, but these are simply word games, and they avoid the key issue, is Falun Gong good?

Imagine this:

If a cult was good and it helped people, what is wrong with that? There are and have been for many years good and orthodox religions, however there definitely have existed evil and unorthodox religions. So maybe there are good cults, and there are bad cults.

Even if Falun Gong were a cult (which is just simply a word for describing a group of people with simialar beliefs), what is wrong with that? As long as it helps people, what is wrong with Falun Gong? It has certainly helped and changed me. Millions of people have regained there health and improved moral standards. You can read all of these stories for yourself, these are available for free download. We are not hiding anything.

www.clearwisdom.net

What is wrong with this? This in no way characterizes an evil cult. What is wrong with cultivating Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance? Master Li Hongzhi has explained:

"Zhen, Shan, Ren is the Fa! And it is the manifestation of the Great Fa of the cosmos at different levels. It is absolutely not some human theory or guiding principle for ordinary human living, as human beings take it to be." ("Beyond the Limits of Forbearance")



Who keeps claiming that Falun Gong is deceptive? What are we hiding? How are we concealing our "core teachings"? They are availble for free download.

www.falundafa.org

Perhaps some Falun Gong practitioners simply don't like talking about their own beliefs with other people, this is just a personal choice. Have you ever considered this? Maybe they just don't want to talk about these things, or maybe they just don't want to talk to you.

We don't ever question you about your deepest core beliefs and feelings. Why bother us?

Read the books people!

www.falundafa.org

danielprice 8/31/06 1:30 PM

If you guys are not hiding the core teachings then why fight so hard to prevent these teachings being reported on wikipedia? It is because you guys are lying to the public on wikipedia that we must expose your real beliefs here. --Mr.He 19:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What is there to hide?
I'm not fighting you from reporting anything. You can report the core teachings of Falun Gong all you want.

Look, I will simplify them for you right here:



Zhen-Shan-Ren

Truthfullness, Compassion, and Tolerance

The Cosmic Characteristic

Heshi Friends

danielprice

Just an opinion on mediation, nothing more
For a wide range of westerners and devout Falun Gong practitioners (see? there's no grey area. Try finding a "religion" where everyone's absolutely devout to its teachings that's not apparently a cult) to come and mediate on the topic of Falun Gong is really just an excuse to present an even more western perspective. It's like asking some Catholic cardinals to "mediate" over the issue of cloning. I wish you great luck, and may the Dharma wheel spin this article in the right direction.

My continued cultivation with the Dafa also gives me a feeling, and a hard one to explain at that, that the article after mediation will be all the more digusting to read than communist propaganda. Master Li teaches us how to bullshit in the proper manner. The majority of you "mediators" should seriously study his teachings more. Then you will be able to brainwash the entire western world more effectively!

Don't even try to convince me I'm wrong. I'm wiser than all of you. I can't explain why because frankly I have engrained philosophies too difficult for you to comprehend. Once you learn the true Fa, get back to me and I'll make it clear to you then.

Colipon+(T) 02:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

FLG funding
In reply to the previous posting, you are wrong. The ex-wife bought about a gross (150 copies) of the FLG book for $10 each. She then gave them all out. I have no idea how many times she did that. Transferring a cost directly to someone is same as them giving you money directly. It didn't cost $10 to make the book. She has repeatedly sent money back to China. By now, she must be well over the $100,000 dollar mark. The kid still has no college fund here that I am aware of. Like you, I do believe in karma. On 9/11, I sent the ex down to the Trade Center to help out(she is a nurse). I had to beg her to do it. Basically, I dropped $100 and filled up her sack with supplies. Then the excuses started: "How am I going to get down there?" My response: "Ask any cop." She took a "friend" to pass out FLG material at the grave site. How dare they desecrate the gravesite? 70 people from my neighborhood died that day. The ex now bears the same 9/11 marks as many others. When her time comes, it will more than likely be slow and painful. A fitting end. Cj cawley 10:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Response
Cj cawley,

There are other costs involved in making and publishing books, Falun Gong is not trying to make some kind of profit off of people. I'm sure the rest of the money goes towards shipping costs and other publishing fees. Look, Li Hongzhi even once said that he wished he could have given the books away for free.

Your remarks were rude and uncalled for.

How is passing out FLG material at a grave site desecrating it?

Look Cj, some people just really love FLG and want to share it with everyone they know. What makes a grave site so special of a place not to hand out fliers? This sounds to me more like you and your wife had marriage problems, and this has nothing to do with FLG. Sorry if this sounded too harsh. I just want to say, your final comments were way off-colour and uncalled for.

By the way, I'm curious, what are "9/11 marks"?

Heshi friend,

danielprice


 * A grave is a place to respect and remember the fallen. Not for preachers and propaganda. It suprises me that people claiming about their high goodness would do something like that. So much for "Shan". --Yenchin 07:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Daniel -


 * My remarks were the facts. If you actually have the audacity to ask such a question about the crater on the lower West Side, then you have reached consumation.  There is no humanity left in you.


 * The divorce is the direct result of her FLG actions and related activities for your group. Her actions may well bring about the demise of many in China.  It will be completely legal.


 * As for the 9/11 marks, you again show your ignorance. Look at

her hands & face, she is marked is ways that come from within. Cuts that do not heal, etc. If you actually knew people that were there, then you would not need to ask that question either. Cj cawley 08:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Requesting topic ban against Simon
See here. Best Regards, --HappyInGeneral (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would encourage everybody to participate and point out how partisan and inappropriate this requested topic ban is. Simonm223 (talk) 18:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * For anyone familiar with the behaviour of Asdfg12345 and HappyInGeneral, this request is outrageous. These two editors have POV pushing the heck out of FG articles for months, and now they are getting reverted they have the nerves of trying to topic ban one of the editors that is reverting their POV pushing? This pushes the limits way farther that I can stand. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Enric, please discuss the content which you may do so above. That is constructive. Labeling user conduct is not constructive. Thank you! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This has been attempted for months years and it has been of absolutely no usefulness since Asdfg12345 and you are clearly trying very hard not to hear. (By the way, the accurate descriptions of the disruptive behaviour of an user does not constitute a personal attack, so references to WP:NPA are not having the effect that you think that they are having). --Enric Naval (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I feel the current situation and sentiments are quite unfortunate, and even confusing. Why can't edits be discussed? Why can't we thrash out the issues based on sources and policy? Every change I made was clearly explained in the edit summary, and I made a space above. If you have a problem, please point it out, explain why, or undo that edit, or whatever. Use policy and sources to support your argument, rather than generalised accusations. Show rather than tell how my edits are problematic. I am more than willing to have that discussion, support my arguments with sources, and where I'm wrong admit it and go with the better formulation.--Asdfg12345 00:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The edits were discussed, for months you don't own the falun gong articles and other editors do not need to run every decision past the office of . Simonm223 (talk) 02:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I very much doubt that the edits where discussed but more importantly what I would like to point out to you that by doing blind reverts you are in practice blocking people you don't like to make edits and that is the actual practice of owning the article. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A seemingly civil facade does not hide the end goal of single-purpose accounts. Any rational user can read through these discussions, look through user contributions, and see for themselves. I am not engaging in strawmen discussions and wasting my time to wait for my logical argumentation to be shoddily brushed away by users who simply do not want to agree, and who are forbidden to agree because of their belief system. Colipon+ (Talk) 03:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

This request is bullshit. I won't even dignify it by commenting at ArbCom. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Please do, I could use the support. Simonm223 (talk) 04:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm.. it's a pretty watertight argument you have, Colipon. Avoids all the actual trouble of engaging in the issues at hand. I like working with other editors, and would like nothing more than to have a collaborative environment here. I don't know how to make that happen. I don't even know what I've done wrong. Edit the pages, it seems. I am sure you are aware that 80% of the Persecution of Falun Gong page, which was full of serious research from academic journals and major newspapers, was all gutted. Simply deleted right off the page, whole sections that were groundbreaking research (like Munro's on psychiatric abuse). But all I've done is balance things here (like adding "decentralisation" to the section about Falun Gong's apparently hyper strict organisation, and making clear the status of the cult claims in the mainstream) with mostly good sources, documenting everything in a very clear way. I don't know what more I can do. But if there is, please tell me. I would like that we could just get on with the actual work rather than all the finger pointing.--Asdfg12345 12:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)