Talk:Family of Barack Obama/Archive 1

Speedy delete?
Please don't speedy The plain fact is I created it entirely from scratch, based entirely upon reliable, second-party sources and have never seen any previous version that was parked here. Obama's extended family has become notable due to his memoir and presidential campaign; people are especially intrigued by it because of its ethnic/cultural diversity. Also recently there was an AfD discussion for the article Malik Abongo Obama. Its result was to merge some highlights of its contents to another article about the Obamas; and I did so, to this article. $\sim$ Justmeherenow     04:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deleted NOTE: I deleted the speedy delete request, but left the hangon. All of this seems off procedure, but I admit I don't know the procedures. To anyone requesting a delete of this, which has good work in it, please do an AfD not a speedy delete. It must be discussed first. After all, I think, it's just a work in progress.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

History
 * A previous article Obama family was deleted at 19:27, 4 June 2008 after the AfD discussion Articles for deletion/Obama family. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger mania! (comments about deleted article Malik Abongo Obama)
( NOTE : I've pasted this "Merger mania!" section from the talk page of the deleted "Malik Abongo Obama" article.....) $\sim$ Justmeherenow     21:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Now that the WP:AfD discussion closed with a WP:MERGE result we have to decide where to merge the info. The three logical choices are: I should note there's a brand new WP:AfD for Sarah Obama at the moment, and if the result is merge that would reasonably go in this article too, along with Hussein Onyango Obama and some of the others. - Wikidemo (talk) 02:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A new article about Obama's Kenyan relatives (e.g. Kenyan relatives of Barrack Obama). My first choice, although I'm not sure of the best name.  Other than some of the individuals themselves being notable or semi-notable this is a notable issue / concept in itself, that Obama has a heritage in Kenya and that the Kenyan side of the family is a distinct thing with its own cultural context, interest, coverage (many articles about the Kenyan family group them together), etc.
 * Barack Obama, Sr.. I think this is a weak second choice.  To merge all the relatives into his father's article creates a portmanteau of two different things.  The Obama Sr. article is already about the life of Obama Sr.  The notion of Obama Jr. having a Kenyan side to the family full of individuals with their own Kenyan cultural identity, experience, etc., is a different thing entirely and not really part of the Obama Sr. life and story.  Moreover the Obama Sr. article is already reasonably long - a combined article with the man and his various children, wives, parents, step parents, etc., would get unruly, overly long, and poorly organized.
 * The main Barack Obama article. Not very good because that article is already too long, and we've broken out various aspects into child articles.  The issue of his Kenyan family and heritage is clearly important, but not enough to devote a large amount of text.
 * At first glance the "Kenyan relatives..." article seems the most attractive, but after thinking it over my vote is for merging into Barack Obama. It was the result of the Afd that Mr. Malik isn't notable enough to warrent his own article, if this also turns out to be the case for the Sarah Obama article, then I basically see the "Kenyan relatives.." as a lumping together of people not worthy of their own article, almost as if to say "These people are not notable in themselves, but if you mash them together, they equal a notable article"; that just seems too awkward to me. As for my reason to merge into Barack's article: The only reason that I can find that Mr. Malik is even mentioned is because he is related to the popular Barack. It would seem he has made some sort of impact on Barack's life, so the most simple way to show this is to add it to Barack's article. If it is the consensus that Barack's article is too long, then either only the most notable information about the man should be included (whatever that is, whether it includes Malik or not, that's for a different discussion to determine) OR a section of Barack's article should be split off into a "Bio of Brack Obama" article and a summary given on his main article (as is often done with sports teams), I don't think it'll be any problem with finding a place for Malik, Sarah, or any other person who has impacted Barack in some way on that page.  Black  ngold29   04:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the lumping together of unnotable people will not make them more notable. As for Wikidemo's point - if there were all of the information you talk about regarding these individuals' identity, experience, etc., and that was reliably sourced, and their notability was demonstrated outside of the fact that some might think they are notable just because they are Kenyan relatives of a presidential candidate - then their individual articles might have been deemed viable. But the information is sorely lacking. I think that Barack Obama, Sr. is the logical place for Malik/Roy/Abongo, but we don't have all that much to say about him of any note - I don't think a description of him in robes is encyclopedic. At one point the Obama Sr article mentioned Auma's occupation if I recall correctly (social worker perhaps? I don't remember now), so we can add that too and anything else of note that we might know about the other Obama half-sibs, but I don't think much is known and sourced.  Thanks for the pointer to the new Sarah AfD. Here we go again. Tvoz / talk 07:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge from any indie bios out there?
Could I have input re any members of the extended families...eg Lolo Soetoro?...currently with an indie bio on Wikipedia who aren't really notable enough to do so? $\sim$ Justmeherenow     17:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't automatically merge every relative of Obama's into this one - articles should expand and grow in quality so that's potentially a step in the wrong direction. The goal here is the best organization and presentation of content.  If we stuff too much into this one article it's going to grow incoherent and too long (or else we're going to have to cut out encyclopedic information).  I'm concerned that by making a single article about Obama's close and extended family we're not only merging a whole bunch of topics (individual relatives) but also meta-topics (the Kenya connection, the Indonesia years, siblings, etc).   This article is best reserved to hold information that is not (yet) judged to stand on its own for notability or other reasons.  For those people who are notable we should take advantage of the wonderful tool of the wikified hyperlink. Wikidemo (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. $\sim$ Justmeherenow     18:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Merge (again) - There are good things about the article that reflect a lot of hard work especially the family tree chart and the article should remain in place. However individual family members should not be moved here.  Follow the precedents set by Bush family and Vanderbilt family.  Those articles are good about showing the relationships but the biographies (and their associated categories) stay in tact. Americasroof (talk) 19:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Provided the above occurs I would strongly fight to "keep" in case of an afd. Americasroof (talk) 20:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * P.P.S. I am also comfortable (actually thrilled) to include the biographies of the lesser obamas that will probably get blasted in afd's. Just don't redirect articles that have not otherwise been afd casualties (e.g., both parents and the maternal grandparents).Americasroof (talk) 20:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I support this article, however, I
 * Oppose merging all of the separate bios of these individuals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Utahredrock (talk • contribs)
 * Oppose this mess of a group of merge requests. If an individual is close enough in association to Barack Obama or have enough independent notability they should have their own article.  If they don't, then they may get a mention in the appropriate parent article.  Out of curiosity, why are we having this discussion on a page which was already deleted at least once before? --StuffOfInterest (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: this Obama family article has been nominated for deletion again - discussion is at Articles for deletion/Obama family (2nd nomination). Tvoz / talk 01:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

A blip in The Times re Auma
"ON Barack Obama’s first visit to Britain to celebrate the wedding of his half-sister Auma in 1996..." ("he went on a ["bachelors'"--ed.] pub crawl with the bridegroom, but quietly left..."). THE TIMES  $\sim$ Justmeherenow     23:21, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Publication
Google Scholar gives me this listing:

Pacific History Bibliography 2007 V LUKER - The Journal of Pacific History, 2007 - informaworld.com ... R Reprint or new edition, with date of original publication or previous ... M Regional and Resource Planning Soetoro, Maya K., Border pictures: hybrid narratives ...

Unfortunately, the linked journal site is one of those obnoxious things that requires payment/registration before it will even show you a TOC. Anyone have access to the journal; it seems possibly notable as a bibliographic mention, if we can figure out the real cite. LotLE × talk 19:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Said Obama
Does anyone think we should mention Said Obama, his uncle in Kenya? I have heard him mentioned several times in the media yet there is no mention of him here. I guess then we'd also have to mention Charles Payne (the brother of Obama's maternal grandmother), his great-uncle. Thoughts? Khoikhoi 23:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Article needs to be deleted
Article was nominated for deletion - and several articles just like this for Barack Obama's family tree have reached a consensus for deletion ... this is just a copy of them retitled. this needs to be deleted. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 05:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have another link? Articles for deletion/Obama family (2nd nomination) was closed as no consensus, which defaults to keep. Cunard (talk) 06:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not at all - it's encyclopedic information about a very notable subject that needs a home somewhere on Wikipedia. The result of a number of those deletions on individual Obama family members was to merge the material here because (some felt) some of the individuals were not individually notable or it simply worked better in a group article.  Those deletion results endorsed this article.  Are you proposing that we not cover families of important politicians?  Is that why you blanked the page?  You might have to rewrite the notability guidelines, or at least convince people that the WP essay applies here (I think it speaks to something else) and that it trumps the WP:BIO guideline.  Wikidemo (talk) 11:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, while I feel that some of this information is encyclopedic to a certain extent, it is not in and of itself a notable topic. Rather, the information should be compressed into a paragraph within the Barack Obama article.  What we have here is a large graphic and an unnecessarily subdivided article to explain how a wide range of non-notable people are related to two notable people.  I think that information would be best presented in simple text form.  It's very easy to use simple text to describe how a person's parents have divorced, remarried, and had issue.  --DavidK93 (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't the need to rehash a deletion discussion that just closed (and I removed the notability tag the original poster added after their attempt to blank the article was reverted). The default position is that the subject's notability is established by virtue of sources, many times over.  Although not every single person mentioned here meets the WP:BIO notability standard (some do and some are not) the information is all reliably sourced and the broader subject of Obama's having family back in Africa is discussed repeatedly at great length in the press.  The press establishes that it is an issue their readers should know about, which is the basic function of the notability standards.  Having reached that decision here I don't think it's useful to keep repeating that debate.  Wikidemo (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Obama Family article which was exactly like this article was nominated for deletion, but the article now directs back to this article ... which is just a ducplicate of it! So basically, all the content was added into a new article with a new name, even though it was nominated for deletion. That's why it should be deleted, a few Obama fans are working to keep this article even though it's not notable. Look at this Articles for deletion/Obama family and you'll see what I am talking about. The creator of this article is desperate to keep it even though it was already meant to be deleted, so another article was created exactly like it to stall real editors. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 07:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability tag
I have cautioned this editor regarding repeated efforts to delete or mark this article as non-notable. Considering that we just closed a deletion debate as no consensus to delete, and the article undeniably meets formal notability guidelines regarding sourcing, I don't see anything else to be done. I do not wish to do a quick revert given article probation so I will wait up to a few days to see if any further consensus develops, but I do believe the notability tag is not proper on the article and should be removed.


 * Although the article was kept, it was only kept on default from no consensus. The notability tag still applies. You seem to be WP:LAWYER ... instead of using common sense. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 07:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This article should be deleted, please see Articles for deletion/Obama family. You'll notice that this article was already shown to not be notable. The only reason deletion was stalled was because the content was moved into this new article name, and the old article name is now being used to direct to this article. This is unfair and manipulative. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 07:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Im strongly for keeping the article, only because this is a very unique family compared to past Presidents. I myself was curious to know about Obama and Michelles extended family. If it was say President John McCain Id be for deleting but this family is just too unique.Sourcechecker419 (talk) 06:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'd like to suggest that George Hussein Onyango Obama be merged into this article. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely merge - given that the other article is very brief (so easy to merge and doesn't stand alone as its own article) and the individual is marginally notable at best. This seems to be the place for various Obama family members of lesser notability.  If no significant opposition develops in a few days I would say go ahead.  Wikidemo (talk) 22:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge It would save readers an extra click to read a two sentence, one source article that probably will not be expanded. Steve Dufour (talk) 05:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Snowball merge. $\sim$ Justmeherenow     08:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since this seems uncontroversial, I have converted the source article into a redirect that points to the section Justmeherenow created. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

George Obama
Article is missing George Obama!! barack's youngest brother. look it up on google you'll see.


 * Hey I put more information in, the notability is, George Obama was homeless a few years and today he lives in a small shack, so Obama opponents were saying he was abandoned by his brother and some quotes kind of said that. But then later stories have George saying, he is proud of his brother and doesn't want his help. So there was needing to be the whole story here on why this brother became in the news. RetroS1mone   talk  02:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Speedy Delete - note to admin

 * disruption by now blocked editor and socks. Not reasonably intended go improve article - Wikidemo (talk) 18:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This article should be deleted, please see Articles for deletion/Obama family. You'll notice that this article was already shown to not be notable and was nominated for deletion. The content was moved into this new article name, and the old article name is now being used to direct to this article. Should be deleted asap. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the article is about one notable persons non-notable family. Articles about notable families like the Kennedys are included because they have many well known and notable individuals in that family not just one or two. The "Obama Family" is not a notable entity like the Kennedys, it's not a royal family, it's just a list of non-notable people related to Obama. Please see wikipedias official policy on making genealogical entries like this one WP:NOTDIRECTORY. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Latest Afd on this article can be found here (also noted on the top of the talk page). Hobartimus (talk) 09:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This was a completely unacceptable nomination that did not conform to normal Wikipedia process. This article is substantially different to the "Obama family" article previously mentioned, in that additional well known individuals have been added, many of whom have received substantial media coverage. Furthermore, this page has been necessary in the attempt to stop misguided editors from creating and re-creating articles about non-notable Obama family members (new articles are simply redirected here). I am deeply concerned that the nominating editor has apparently sprinkled notability and neutrality-related tags on a number of Obama-related pages, indicating some sort of agenda. Please do not do that. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hang on!
The article that was deleted at AfD had only briefly covered three family members -- and, so, the present article is not a repost. However, it IS absolutely true that it was only saved in its 2nd RfD by way of "default-to-keep." So IMO nominator would not be guilty of reduncancy per WP:NOTAGAIN were s/he and hi/r allies able to argue more substantially for a "delete" in a new RfD. Or, that is, consensus can change. Still, I would argue for "keep." Thanks. $\sim$ Justmeherenow     12:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S. There is a restaurant called Mzoli's -- and it's NOT a The Four Seasons and the WP article commenting on Mzoli's has been deleted in the past, yet it remains. Why? Because a consensus thinks the place is notable, anyway. Here's hoping for the same result, here. $\sim$ Justmeherenow     12:43, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Malia date of birth
There seems to be some debate as to whether Malia was born in 1998 or 1999. Several people have changed it back and forth. As you can see here, the Chicago Sun-Times published an article in 1998 saying, "Barack Obama and wife, Michelle, on the birth of their first child, Malia." Therefore she could not have possibly been born in 1999. Also, you can see here that on July 4, 2007 she turned 9, and here that she turned 10 on July 4, 2008. I think it's reasonable to say that she was born in 1998. Khoikhoi 06:30, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Accessibility
The accessibility of this article is very poor. Without CSS, the relationships are not apparent; affecting anyone using a text reader. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 22:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: This page was pointed out at Wikipedia talk:Accessibility, hence the deluge of new and critical editors ;-) -- Quiddity (talk) 01:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag?
placed a NPOV tag on the article without comment. The neutrality of this article should be discussed here or the tag removed. Anyone? --Evb-wiki (talk) 16:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Gabriel Robinson
Gabriel Robinson is described as "Jim Robinson's 3-year-old son." The next family member listed is Gabriel's 80-year-old daughter. Why is Gabriel referred to as a 3-year-old? Obviously he lived beyond the age of three, if he had a daughter. Was he 3 years old when listed in a census or some other record? This needs expansion and clarification, or deletion. P.S. Excellent article in general. 163.231.6.68 (talk) 14:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)Max Clarke

Sarah
I think that, even if she has lied, verifiable third party sources that state she claims to have been present at Obama's birth in Kenya should be added. If she is notable for her relationship with Sen. Obama, then statements she has made about him are no less valid.Die4Dixie (talk) 00:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are no such reliable sources. This kooky conspiracy theory has long since been debunked.  Sorry, but we do not add clearly false fringe theories to biographies of living people.  --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Teach me to do my own research.I failed to go back to the original source for a quote, and when I did to respond to your post, I wasleft holding the bag. Quite right that it can not go here, although I do disagree with some of your adjectives.Die4Dixie (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2008 (UTC)