Talk:Famous for being famous

VFD Designation

 * I strongly oppose the nomination of this article for deletion. This is an article about a cultural trend which, while mentioned in other articles already existent, had no article of its own.--Ensrifraff 02:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if you cited some sources supporting what is now your original research on "people famous for being famous", it would be appropriate. Basically, it looks like you just thought it up yourself, rather than used reliable sources to create it. It's not a speedy deletion candidate, but it's not exactly following policy either. Leebo 86 02:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * For instance, your description of Anna Nicole Smith doesn't really make a strong case for her "undeserving fame". She was a Playboy Playmate... unless you're insinuating that all models are "famous for being famous". Leebo 86 02:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes she was a Playboy playmate, however her fame for being famous went well beyond that. Most Playboy models never become famous. Additionally on the November 8th edition of Countdown with Keith Olbermann she was referred to as "famous simply for being famous" meaning that the term has been attributed to her.
 * It may be true that the average Playboy model is not particularly famous, but I don't really think you can justify calling the Playmate of the Year for 1993 "famous for being famous". She began her Playboy career as the result of entering a search contest, not through her billionaire boyfriend, so that's not something directly contributing to her initial fame. Leebo 86 05:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I guess the problem I have is that this basically designates all models (people famous for their physical beauty) as "famous for being famous," which isn't what I understood the meaning to be. Where do you draw the line between a model who is famous for modeling and a model who is famous for being famous? It's a pretty sloppy line, I think, and not something that has been discussed in the scholarly manner necessary for sustaining an encyclopedia article. Leebo 86 05:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. In the case of Anna Nicole Smith her later fame had little to do with the fame she found as a Playboy model. She is one of the most frequently cited examples of someone who is famous for being famous.--Ensrifraff 21:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm unclear on the process by which one determines how much a person's fame is the result of a certain event in his or her life. It's all opinion, and like I said, a sloppy definition. I don't disagree that people referred to her that way, but the article should focus solely on documenting how people use the term, not trying to figure out if someone "deserved" to be famous or not.  Leebo  T / C  22:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Deleting this page? No way! "Famous for being Famous" is a common term in conversation in the media and a page about is appropriate. Also, there is no clear-cut line for who makes the list. Some may have been actresses or singers with debatable talent (Paris, Anna Nicole) while others were just attached (Ozzy's family) but they all deserve inclusion. Wikipedia does not aim to be a copy of a real encyclopedia, things like "famous for being famous" belong here but not in Britanica. -Jon in California
 * It's not our job to debate a celebrity's talent, that would be original research for me to say "I think this celebrity is not very talented, so they must just be famous for being famous." Even when people in the media use it, it's just an opinion.  Leebo  T / C  11:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Whether or not a fictional character is a Mary Sue is also subjective, but that does not mean we shouldn't have a page on the (quite notable) concept. The solution is simple: only report on the basic concept (which is pretty much covered already), and on who has been labeled [i]in notable media[/i] under this concept, as well as notable parodies (like the South Park episode). Duh. It's what we always do with this kind of thing. I honestly don't understand why people always inevitably argue over this kind of article, as it always ends up either messing up a perfectly decent article, or just ending with the same NPOV "include it if they become known as it in notable media, otherwise exclude it" construction that every other decent article on a subjective concept has. 63.21.31.87 05:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * While the "Famous for being famous" expression has been around for over 20 years, the cast of characters that fall within that classification is obviously in a constant transition. The "fame" is fleeting for many of them. Some of those that are on the list in this article are no longer on the radar; perhaps belonging in the "Once famous for being famous" category, if such a category existed. If this article comes down to deciding who does and who doesn't make the FFBF grade, then it's a waste of everyone's time. Let's focus instead on covering this as an intriguing cultural phenomenon with some history behind it. Origins, please. While we get a 1961 quote from a book defining what a celebrity is, nothing here really tries to nail down when the FFBF expression emerged and the phenomenon was first described in print or broadcast. And lines like "Neal Gabler more recently refined the definition of celebrity..." give us nothing to go on if we're looking for a time frame. What does "more recently" tell us? Give us a date! Even the PDF file this sentence lists as a reference doesn't include a date. I'm going to do some research on the earliest recognition -- as described in print or broadcast -- of the FFBF phenomenon, and try to flesh out this article a bit. Cyoso (talk) 11:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Alli Paisley2005 (talk) 13:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Stub?
How and why is this article a stub? There's only so much you can say about some things. Zebraic 22:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Some others?
BillyTFried (talk) 02:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yoko Ono
 * May Pang
 * Lisa Marie Presley
 * Ron Reagan
 * Mark Furman
 * Billy Carter
 * Monica Lewinsky
 * Reverend Wright
 * Joe the plumber


 * Yoko Ono is notable in her own right. She was an artist before meeting Lennon, and would be notable had she not met him. Would she have been a household name otherwise? No, but by the definition given in the article, this would not apply to Ono. Being a household name because of an association with someone else does not necessarily render a person "famous for being famous", as Ono is notable in her own right. Let's not allow mostly racist and sexist attitudes towards Ono trump common sense (not to mention that WP:BLP very much applies in this case).  freshacconci  talk talk  15:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Notable <> Famous. Ono is famous because of her husband not her artwork or music.BillyTFried (talk) 20:50, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Freshacconci regarding Ono's fame. She was well known in the Avant Garde circles of New York, and was both a published author, as well as an exhibited artist. Her "art" may not have been something that you or I liked, but the chances are that this would apply to most artists whom neither of us have ever met. It was the fact that she was a known Artist that led to her meeting Lennon, though undoubtedly, Lennon made her world famous.46.7.85.68 (talk) 15:24, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Tama Janowitz is another person on whom this label has been hung. I remember an article in Spy magazine which implied that the reason her first book was published was due more to her fame on the nightclub circuit than due to her previous publishing history. (That is, "everyone" knew she was a writer, even though she hadn't published all that much, which led an editor to "discovering" her.) However it's been so long since I've even thought about her that I can't readily provide any specific citations where she is described as "famous for being well-known". -- llywrch (talk) 22:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Why not add Spencer Pratt & Heidi Montag?190.59.12.88 (talk) 03:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Paris Hilton is "Primarily famous for being the rich grand-daughter of Barron Hilton"?24.4.255.3 (talk) 16:55, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Primarily famous for being the subject/object/part-author of a 2003 sex tape? OK. Famous for her role in The Simple Life? If you insist. But primarily famous for being the grand-daughter of Barron Hilton? He has 23 grandchildren -- are the others also famous?
 * Our "source" didnt even mention her grandfather and it wasnt a reliable source to begin with, so I removed it altogether. -- The Red Pen of Doom  18:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How about readding her based on an entertainment section article in Arabian Business "her chief achievements seem to be that she is slim, stupid, and swimming in cash." -- The Red Pen of Doom  20:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. I can't believe her mentioning is even debatable... she's the very symbol of the "celeb disease", which this article is all about. InQuahogNeato (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

uncited additions
I've deleted some uncited additions. There are still some marginal entries. we should have citations that point to them being famous for being famous

JFK Jr.
I think that being the son of a President disqualified him from being "famous [solely] for being famous." 128.135.229.74 (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. He's cited by Salon as being "famous for being famous".  His fame and celebrity rose above what one would normally expect of a presidents son, though of course his fame originated from it.--Work permit (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Kim Kardashian
It says "Famous for having a big ass and a sex tape" which doesn't really sound... right. :P Someone want to fix this? (I'm not sure exactly what it should be changed to, and I have no idea who she is)--69.24.178.132 (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Hell In A Bucket (talk) 01:22, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Boorstin
The term is traced back to Boorstin. I restored the deleted paragraph and added more references.--Work permit (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Puhleeze!
FBF without Pia Zadora?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.183.190 (talk) 00:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Jessica Simpson
I would hardly consider Jessica Simpson "Famesque" according to this article's definition. It clearly states on her page "She has achieved seven Billboard Top 40 hits, three gold and two multi-platinum Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) certified studio albums, four of which have reached the top 10 on the US Billboard 200."

If that is considered achieving very little, then I don't know what is considered a lot anymore. Scope000 (talk) 17:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Explanation for causes of this phenomenon
It would be interesting to mention possible causes for this social phenomenon and how it varies from culture to culture (and even through time). I don't know where to start searching for reliable sources on this but it would be interesting. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 17:28, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Some examples
A list of "famous" people has been added to this article. I am curious about the criteria for inclusion (or rather, criteria for exclusion) that might keep this list at a manageable size and able to be managed by interested editors. I should say that we will require a reliable secondary source to explicitly denote each one of these list members as famous for being famous or a similar description. What else? Elizium23 (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Based on the wording and tone of the section as I re-examined it in the editor, I have removed it entirely. There was no call for profanity or violation of WP:NPOV. If you intend to restore it, every single one of the entries must have a WP:RS attached and the wording must be neutral. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 20:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I am a bit sceptical about the criteria used in the opening section, especially the inclusion of Katie Price. She had previously had a (glamour) modelling career as "Jordan" prior to reverting to her birth name. I don't claim that modelling is any particularly noteworthy talent, but if you dismiss modelling, then almost by definition, all models are FFBF.

While I am here, I would suggest the late Jade Goody is worthy of inclusion in this list.46.7.85.68 (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Also Calum Best, who is famous for being the son of footballer, the late George Best.46.7.85.68 (talk) 10:21, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Examples
In the current state, the examples given are all female and are all famous within the English-speaking world. We could do with some international examples and I think we especially need to balance the gender inequality a little bit. Or, if that's not possible, it should be explained via references. I don't really follow celebrities, but I assume the "famous for being famous" thing applies just as easily to guys as gals. Any suggestions? Matt Deres (talk) 17:43, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Sentence over-endowed as only a tabloid journalist could love
The word appeared again in a 1985 Newsweek article about New York City's clubland celebrities, focusing on the lifestyle of writer James St. James, Lisa Edelstein, who was named New York City's "Queen of the Night" by St. James and who was referenced briefly in his 1999 book Disco Bloodbath, and Dianne Brill, who was crowned "Queen of the Night" by Andy Warhol.

If you can parse that on a quick first pass (without the bold text), you're a better (hu)man than I.

A couple of semicolons help to put lipstick on an excessively subordinated pig:

The word appeared again in a 1985 Newsweek article about New York City's clubland celebrities, focusing on the lifestyle of writer James St. James; Lisa Edelstein, who was named New York City's "Queen of the Night" by St. James and who was referenced briefly in his 1999 book Disco Bloodbath; and Dianne Brill, who was crowned "Queen of the Night" by Andy Warhol.


 * Famous for being famous: Difference between revisions — edit from 23 July 2018

Before the modification:

The word appeared again in a 1985 Newsweek article about New York City's clubland celebrities, focusing on the lifestyle of James St. James, Lisa Edelstein and Dianne Brill, who was crowned "Queen of the Night" by Andy Warhol.

Easily comprehended in this version.

I could do the semicolon thing, but I'm going to simply revert this to the original sentence without the added material, which doesn't strike me as all that important.

If someone wants to add this material back in a more elegant way, feel free to fill your boots so far as I'm concerned. &mdash; MaxEnt 22:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Kardashian-Jenner family
Pretty sure that they are the most well-known celebutantes of our time. They have often been called "famous for being famous" and having "no talent". They were previously also included in this article, but someone decided to delete it. Probably vandalism. So, I added them back with different, more recent, and more reliable sources. MrUnoDosTres (talk) 06:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)