Talk:Far-right politics in Poland

Far-right vs right-wing
This article describes some people and organizations as far right, when there own articles only describe them as right wing. I think a distinction must be made between the two. Ostap 05:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Alleged Far right groups in Poland
This is laughable. An encyclopedia with alleged article? How about creating an article on alleged Jewish thieves? Unless it is changed, I will delete this section. Tymek (talk) 00:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was the one who added "alleged". It used to be just "far right groups in Poland", but I'm not sure all of these groups are really far right and not just right wing.  This article seems a bit WP:ORish. Ostap 00:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the Far-right individuals in Poland list has to have very solid and reliable referencing or else it could be a violation of WP:BLP. Ostap 00:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it has to be solid. Some editors here obviously have axes to grind and this is seen in the article. Tymek (talk) 01:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

"ORish"? We cite proper sources grouping the organizations listed under "far right". The burden would now lie on you to provide equally good sources disputing this. --dab (𒁳) 09:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Only one of the individuals has a source. Where is the source for, say, Jerzy Kropiwnicki? Ostap 03:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Kropiwnicki far right? Konfederacja Polski Niepodleglej far right? Do you guys really know what you are writing about? Another example of Wikipedia article that is turning into a laughing stock. Tymek (talk) 15:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * KPN far right? Oh yes indeed. .. Laughing stock? Sure thing. RKN (Antoni Macierewicz)-Kropiwnicki-National Rebirth of Poland alliance is kinda laughing stokish " Interestingly, the notorious antisemitism of the NOP did not prevent Jerzy Kropiwnicki, who was subsequently elected mayor of Lodz, from forming a coalition with this party".M0RD00R (talk) 17:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I am glad you are amused. If you want to help, you can place fact or dubious tags next to items you find dubious. --dab (𒁳) 15:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am glad we are both glad. Unless proper references are found, please do not add names and organizations according to your likes and dislikes. Tymek (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * the organizations are all properly referenced. This is about the individuals. I listed those whose own article connects them with the Polish far right movement. I am completely ignorant of the topic myself, I am just using sources. If you object to KPN being listed as far right, complain to Liang, not to me. Or better yet, add sources that contradict Liang (2007). --dab (𒁳) 16:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Who is Liang and what are his credentials? Anyway, blind belief in sources ends up in weird articles like this. ZChN does not exist any more, a scholar (?) like Liang should know it, since you treat him as the undisputed source of knowledge. KPN never was extreme right-wing, in the communist times it was predecessor of the Solidarity movement. KPN does not exist any more, it was disbanded in 2003. Perhaps our scholar Liang means KPN-Ojczyzna, a marginal, unknown party with perhaps 20 members. Samoobrona extreme right-wing? A populist-socialist party with strong connections to the communist secret services? Well, I do not really care, create these articles of yours, and do not be surprised if somebody laughs at you. BTW did our source of knowledge mention Leszek Bubel? Tymek (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * nobody is "blindly trusting" any sources. I am asking you to cite other sources, that's all. It's ok if sources contradict one another, but unless we have multiple sources contradicting one another, we haven't established anything is "controversial". Liang (2007) is a quotable academic source published with Ashgate, not more and not less. --dab (𒁳) 08:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I propose removing all the unsourced individuals as possible blp violations. The term far right is, according to our own article, "often used to imply that someone is an extremist." Anyone agree? Ostap 02:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, after further reading WP:BLP, I have removed all of the unsourced individuals per Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Ostap 03:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * yes, fair enough. --dab (𒁳) 08:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Laughable again
OK, this is getting ridiculous. The title of the article is Far right in Poland, yet parties presented here are described as dominant actors in the Central European right-wing family (by Liang). Hope I do not have to remind anybody that there is a huge difference between right-wing and far right, which is usually associated with Nazism. Either change it or I will rename the article. Tymek (talk) 22:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems to be the one problem with this article. No doubt there are far right groups in Poland (like everywhere else) but many of these groups here are not far right, but rather right wing.  I don't know what good renaming the article would be, what would you propose?  I would propose only having the actual well-sourced far right extremist groups in this article, and not listing simple right wing parties at all. Ostap 05:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to keeping the present title, but its contents have to be changed, with real far right wing parties and individuals presented, as in this form it is laughable. Tymek (talk) 19:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This site is being more funny from day to day :D
"Poland's neo-Nazi skinhead scene was estimated at some 2,000 active members in 1995."

Who counted them ? Not all Skinehads are neonazis. The data is outdated by 13 years.

"The political organization associated with that movement is the National Revival of Poland, with an estimated 500 members, raising some 0.6% of the popular vote."

National Revival of Poland is a Third positionist movement, Third Position is an ideology which places you between left and right. NOP is also antisocialistic so they need to be very deep in neonazism :D. NOP was never involved in any actions with neonazis because NOP is in opposition to any socialsitic and left wing ideologies (nazism, communism). NOP has more than 500 members.

"Since the mid 1990s, the ultra-Catholic Radio Maryja station has been on air with an anti-modernist, nationalist and xenophobic program."

So terrible that Poland won't be ateized as far as liberals in EU want it. Anti modernism, anti liberalism and conservative values are a crime in 21 century ? Radio Maryja is a patriotic Catholic radio which hails the catholic and Polish related values and moral actings. Any proofs for "xenophobic program" ?

"Samoobrona was founded in 1992 by Andrzej Lepper, and rose to political notability from 2001, gaining a profile based on its fierce anti-EU rhetorics"

Samoobrona is a socialistic and populistic organization, agrarianism is their main economic idea. I think that "far right" (whatever it is) will not be happy if we will show them Samoobrona and its ideas for politics. Especially Fascists which were against these ideas.

'''"Far right groups in Poland" :

The following Polish groups are listed as "dominant actors in the Central European right-wing family" by Liang (2007:265):'''

Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland (Samoobrona Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej, SRP) - Doesn't have anything to do with the far right, organization is highly leftist and hails their ideas.

Confederation for an Independent Poland (Konfederacja Polski Niepodległej KPN) - Organization strongly identificate itself with Sanation's ideas, Sanation was a left wing pre - war Polish ideology of Jozef Pilsudski.

Polish Nationalist Union (PWN-PSN) - Long before Nazis, Polish nationalistic organization. Far right ? Endecja wasn't even right wing ideology movement...

Christian National Union (Zjednoczenie Chrześcijańsko-Narodowe ZChN) (pl:) - This organization don't even exist anymore, in 2001 they joined LPR. National Rebirth of Poland (NOP) is a minor nationalist political party in Poland, reaching 0.6% of the popular vote in regional elections as of 2006). It is a member of European National Front and a co-founder of International Third Position. - See at the beginning of the post. NOP is against leftist ideas.

Association for Tradition and Culture "Niklot" (Stowarzyszenie na rzecz Tradycji i Kultury "Niklot") (pl:) - I will say that they aren't event fascists, they are more like a bunch of White Supremacist idiots who "believe" in pre Christian Polish Gods. Radio Maryja - Catholic radio which follows catholic and Polish traditional values in opposition to ateization and liberalisation of Polish life.

'''By agenda Liang (2007:265) groups the organizations mentioned by agenda, as follows:'''

"Fascist/Autocratic Right - NOP, Niklot - neo-Nazis, black metal skinheads"... - NOP can't be associated with "neo nazis" while it is "Fascist" (according to the article). Fascism and Nazism aren't the same that's the first thing, second thing is that NOP is between left and right so as much as you would like to place it somewhere you can't. "Black Metal Skinheads" ? What's that ? "Hip-Hop and Rap Skinheads" ? It is a crime to listen to black metal ? Music is a personal thing, NOP members even listen to Hip-Hop so this is some kind of parody :D.

"Liang (2007)"

Who is Liang ? He is a main note but no infomrations about him, his works, his books etc.

Very reliable and NPOV External links :

"Der Spiegel" and "International Herald Tribune".

As far as I know these newspapers and articles pointed in this article aren't correct with Wikipedia's "RS" and "NPOV".

Someone just tries to find things where they aren't even there. Sad and funny.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 03:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Reliability of Der Spiegel and International Herald Tribune is a major issue and should be discussed at WP:RS/N. Maybe you should share your views with broader audience there? Cheers. M0RD00R (talk) 08:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS is relative to the topic. Newspapers are perfectly permissible as sources for day-to-day political happenings. --dab (𒁳) 10:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

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Samoobrona
I think that Samoobrona should be removed, as it is not a far-right group in usual sense. It is 1) populist 2) left-wing nationalist. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 15:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed references to Samoobrona as it's clearly inaccurate to call it right wing, much less far right. I removed some material pertaining to LPR though there it's more arguable (economically left wing, socially right wing with at least some elements of "far right" but in my view not really farther out there then some of the Republican party in US).radek (talk) 05:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

KPN ??????????????
Xx236 (talk) 18:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Radio Maryja is a radio
Radio Maryja is a radio. If you mean its supporters, they are frequently very old, ill, subject of jokes. Xx236 (talk) 18:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC) "neo-Nazis, far-right skinheads" - what a idiot say something like this?Xx236 (talk) 18:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * if you click on the little number [1], you are taken to a thing we call "footnote" saying "Liang (2007), p. 265f." This is what we call a "reference", telling you exactly "what idiot" said the thing in question, when and where. --dab (𒁳) 19:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have the book, so I'm not able to check what "Liang" says. As the title says "Liang" is about populists. This article is about Far Right. Far Right has frequently its ideology, which make them anti-populist. Xx236 (talk) 10:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

try google books. "Far Right has frequently its ideology, which make them anti-populist" is undiluted nonsense. I'll remove your tag until you manage to present an actual case. --dab (𒁳) 12:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC) A nonsence? Excuse me Herr Expert, but you are writing nonsence and vandalizing this article.Xx236 (talk) 15:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

And you try XYZ. If the book is available, quote it correctly.Xx236 (talk) 15:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Radio Maryja is a radio station. You cannot claim that RM is a political organisation, because it's not true. If you mean one of several RM organsation, write about the organisation. But to write you have to know.Xx236 (talk) 15:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC) Are children praying with Madzia Buczek "far right"?Xx236 (talk) 15:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC) You don't say that The Rush Limbaugh Show is a Far Right party in the USA, do you?Xx236 (talk) 15:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Slavic Neopaganism
Why Slavic Neopaganism is far right? It can be far left either. Slavic Neopaganism doesn't belong to policial cathegories. Rewrite that article before you write about Niklot here.Xx236 (talk) 15:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Selected countries
Category:Far right political parties by country - you can see that only a small number of countries has been selected and branded. There is no source that other countries don't have far right parties (eg. Russia). Bias.Xx236 (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC) Is National Bolshevism right or left?Xx236 (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC) This Wikipedia brands it as Third Position. What about Third Position in Poland?Xx236 (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC) According to Polish Wikipedia NOP belongs (at least partially) to the Third Position. Śo branding it as Far right is POV.Xx236 (talk) 15:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

What is ZChN?
Leading politicians of ZChN joined LPR in 2007. Few weeks ago some kind of ZChN was recreated, but it's too early to judge the projectXx236 (talk) 15:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, which is yet another reason to not include it here.radek (talk) 18:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

German sources about Poland
The quality of German sources "informing" about Poland is generally low. They frequently quote liberal Polish newspapers (mostly Gazeta Wyborcza), involved in political and economical fights in Poland. They attack Kaczynski brothers. You don't quote biased anti-German Polish sources describing internal German politics.Xx236 (talk) 08:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

2009
Any book printed in 2007 can be quoted as a historical source but not as a source of informations about recent situation.Xx236 (talk) 10:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC) The book describes 2004 elections.Xx236 (talk) 09:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

PWN-PSN
PWN-PSN is a 1997 name. According to Polish Wikipedia the group didn't take part in several last elections.Xx236 (talk) 10:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

KPN
The quoted book (I can see two pages, the other two not) seems to not discuss KPN and doesn't quote any specific source about KPN but two texts about Dmowski's and Piłsudski's traditions in contemporary Poland.Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 19 February 2009 (UTC) I have removed allegations about KPN connections with neo-Nazis. Xx236 (talk) 09:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

POV
This whole article is clearly anti Polish. NOP and ONR are Third Positionist, Polish Nationalistic organizations. Members of pre-war ONR fought with Nazism, many of them died in concentration camps for example Jan Mosdorf. ONR (same as Endecja) also had many Jewish members among them for example Bernatt, Diehl, Guttman, Liwo, Meissner, Stahl, Rossman and many more. NOP members burns Swastika Flag and do more actions against neonazism. NOP and ONR doesn't have anything to do with 'far-right'. Radio Maryja is a Catholic Radio which is apoliticall. The only 'far-right' in Poland is very small in numbers BH and C18. That's because for Stephen Riot Institute and ADL antizionism = antisemitism doesn't mean that it is true. --DumnyPolak (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fighting against German National Socialism is not a safe warrant that one is not 'far-right' or nationalistic himself/herself. For example, Russian ultranationalists generally oppose German Nazism (which they call 'fascism'), yet their own world-view is similar to Neo-Nazis like two drops of water. -- Miacek (t) 13:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Polish Nationalists oppose any form of nazism because they are against socialism - radical left and radical right. Many of their members died during the war, especially ideologists that's why they refuse any form of neonazism, even 'Polish version of NS' where Polish NS doesn't support actions committed by the III Reich and they do not see Hitler as a hero is totally refused. For NOP, ONR and MW members neonazism = nazism = extermination of Polish nation during the war time. That's why calling them 'far-right' where in western society they place NS in same category 'far-right' it is big POV. --DumnyPolak (talk) 21:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Nazism is (extremly!)-right-wing (only hayekist call nazis left) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

League of Polish Families has nothing in common with fascism
It is very surprising for me to see the LPR in the article called "Far right in Poland". The LPR refers to national democracy which did not contain many far right ideas. Moreover, it is not absolutely connected with neo-nazi subculture as it is written in the table. The Polish Nationalist Union was formed many years before the "careers" of Mussolini and Hitler so it is not possible that they were neo-fascists because it simply does not make sense. The name of this national movement is clearly connected with the ideas, people and statements from the 1930s. Contemporary Polish Nationalist Union is NATIONALIST, not neo-fascist or neo-nazi. What more, I have found another funny information related to the LPR. The author of this article has written that the LPR members are from far-right skinheads groups. I can not imagine how those bald hooligans received 15,2 % votes in the 2004 elections and were ministers or other influential politicians. The ONR also refers to the tradition of National Radical Camp which existed befoce World War II and can be specified as an extreme nationalist movement but can not be named fascist. The ONR does not popularize totalitarian model of a state. Summing up, the NOP is the only official far right party in Poland which seems to be the most extreme. In my opinion, the author should focus on the neutrality and reliability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maciek93pl (talk • contribs) 23:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

removing POV template without ongoing discussion per Template:POV instructions
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Expansion needed
The article needs expansion to include Radio Maryja style ultra-Catholic organizations. Like the League of Polish Families, which is described as far-right by many RSs. Far-right has its own brands that go beyond simple Neo-Nazism to include ultraconservative organizations. Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 19:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Law and Justice is a Socialist Populist party and not "far right" nor even "right wing".
You have to understand that in Poland the "progressives" have the same views on economics as American Republicans. Currently, after the Law and Justice party vastly expanded social programs for low income families and plans to lower the the retirement age (to what it used to be) the socially progressive economically right-wing opposition is claiming that Law and Justice (PiS) is "bringing back Communism" and is "buying votes of lazy bums that don't want to work, just live on welfare and produce children". Sounds familiar?

Claiming that Law and Justice is a "far right" or even regular right wing is nothing more than German propaganda that does not even reflect how the Polish political opposition describes Law and Justice. This last section of the article is essentially completely false.

109.243.174.70 (talk) 13:23, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of the source
In these two reverts (one of the established editor followed by the brand new account), there are misrepresentations of the source given Let's take a look - First-line --> "Mainstream clothing with nationalist and far-right themes (for example, Celtic cross or slogans such as "Death to the enemies of the Fatherland") is widespread among the Polish youth". - The source says nothing about the "Death to the enemies of the Fatherland" or that such clothing is widespread. - The source says - Second-line --> "Western experts warn that the actions of PiS only embolden the previously marginal far-right making their extreme views seem socially acceptable, ordinary and mainstream." It says nothing about Western experts. The source says: This old article is outdated but could still be used as a source, although it must be written according to what it says and reflect the article's date. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  05:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC) :The source says clothing has "become a uniform of sorts for a growing segment of Polish youth", which is the same as widespread. So, would: Be accurate?VikingDrummer (talk) 05:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)  sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No, that is not at all the same as “widespread”.  Volunteer Marek   06:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

On top of that: uniform of sorts for a growing segment of Polish youth not  widespread among the Polish youth. The source is misrepresented - GizzyCatBella  🍁  06:23, 3 June 2021 (UTC) :Splitting hairs, "uniform of sorts" is widespread. But how about we change this to: ?VikingDrummer (talk) 06:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)  sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This is what the source says. Now, that source is from 2017. How do you know it’s the same now in 2021? - GizzyCatBella  🍁  06:29, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

We could write: Is that accurate?VikingDrummer (talk) 06:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You delivered the source in this edit that talks about World War II restitution, not Far-right politics in Poland, and on top of that, you didn't record precisely what that source states.

The source says:

You wrote:

In 2019, in one of the largest gatherings of ultra-fascists in Europe, participants wore sweaters and jackets emblazoned with "Death to the enemies of the fatherland"


 * I would appreciate it if you:

First - recorded what the source says correctly --> (Analysts monitoring extremist groups have called ).

Two - achieve consensus here before reinstating the text. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  08:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm posting the proposed text below, correcting inaccuracy, and allowing all participants of this discussion to examine it and come to a conclusion if this should be recorded.

Proposed text to be added pending WP:CON <-- (added later for clarity) :

- GizzyCatBella  🍁  08:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC) :The problem was missing analysts? ✅, copied.VikingDrummer (talk) 08:41, 3 June 2021 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * VikingDrummer - Did Volunteer Marek and others had a chance to review the proposed text? No. Please self-revert and wait for consensus, I didn’t make my mind if that text really deals with Far Right politics in Poland in general as of now. I also would like to hear opinions of other established editors. Thank you - GizzyCatBella  🍁  08:48, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Marek objected to widespread which was removed. This is also supported by User:Trasz and User:Nulliq. I don't see a disagreement to the text.VikingDrummer (talk) 09:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You have got to be kidding. This is NOT how this works.  Volunteer Marek   12:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * VikingDrummer - Did you read my prior commentary carefully? Where do I say I concur with you for that text to be recorded? Perhaps you did not read it carefully, or perhaps I was misunderstood by you.; please re-read it.; I'm certain you are aware that distortion of other people's remarks is disruptive, but I'm not blaming you for doing that since you most likely missed what I wrote above. Right? Also, other than VM, nobody else is participating in this discussion regarding the new text you proposed. Please self revert and wait for WP:CON. Thanks. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  09:35, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Are you trying to reach consensus, or are you just making proposals here to waste time?VikingDrummer (talk) 09:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user-  GizzyCatBella  🍁  14:10, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * VikingDrummer Oh, I see, that's what confused you. I added a small note to it. . So it's very clear now. Please self revert. - GizzyCatBella  🍁  09:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * VikingDrummer - Oops, you removed my comment. It was clearly marked that it was a later addition of my original comment. I would appreciate it if you self reverted that also. If you would like me to direct you to the relevant policy dealing with the removal or modification of other people's comments, I will gladly do that. -  GizzyCatBella  🍁  09:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there a problem that requires administrative intervention here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:57, 3 June 2021 (UTC)