Talk:Farshad Fotouhi/Archive 1

Anyone who believes the hagiography of the first six paragraphs is an accurate depiction of this Machiavellian Prince needs to do a Google search on crainsdetroit.com. Detroit Joseph (talk) 03:07, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the article to its last acceptable state. The latest version was heavily biased and violated our neutral point of view and biographies of living persons policies. I'm am not necessarily passing judgement on the statements reverted or the subject, I just couldn't let it stand as is. The sources need to be checked against our venerability and reliability policies before reinserting the information in an encyclopedic tone. John Reaves 06:53, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Since when is the truth bias? Are you going to wring your hands because the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article calls him corrupt? Read Crain's Detroit Business http://www.crainsdetroit.com/assets/PDF/CD89200615.PDF page 8 or 9. Should Ahmedinajad's Wikipedia article just be a carbon copy of his page on the Iranian government's website?


 * The verifiable info about Fotouhi's corruption is just the tip of the iceberg. It's probably true that he got the position of dean of the college only because he is a crony of the former provost. It's probably also true that Fotouhi was the dead last choice out of ten candidates for the job among the senior faculty. It's probably also true that Fotouhi was envious of Dr. Tadda, who used to have the biggest office in the college because of pure luck. But I don't see these facts I just mentioned in Crain's Detroit, so I'm not putting them in the article. Detroit Joseph (talk) 14:39, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Your opinion on the man has no place here. Like I said, I'm not saying that what I reverted is untrue or true, it's was just written like a smear piece from the National Enquirer (a gossip rag with no journalistic integrity).  Wikipedia's goal is to present all of the facts in a neutral tone befitting of an encyclopedia.  Since you clearly have a bias, you probably shouldn't edit the article at all.  If you continue to violate our policies on neutrality and reliablilty (which I've linked above) or continue to edit war you will be blocked. 19:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Further, Crain's is a valid source, the problem is with the way the information is worded. John Reaves 19:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Biased Tone
Upon Favonian's suggestion I'm copying our conversation here: Shobeir_f (talk) 21:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting the latest edits and making it protected. However, the page still contains incorrect information. This has been going on for some time and I don't have the time to repeatedly correct it.

For example:

"He was appointed dean by the provost in March of 2011 to facilitate the transfer of the Department of Computer Science out of the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences and into the College of Engineering.[8]" This sentence is written to show that the reason for his appointment was only to do the transfer. However, the reference does not say that at all. It just says that he did the transfer. And the sentence tries to undermine his capabilities.

"He generated controversy with the firings of several people, including the Assistant Dean and non-faculty personnel who worked under Professor Greg Auner.[11]" The reference does not say anything about the assistant dean!

"After the firings, Fotouhi started a construction project to renovate and enlarge the Dean's Office.[11]" The reference does not say that at all!

And even if all these were corrected, the article has been edited in a way to show that most his contribution at Wayne State are negative; there is a whole paragraph about a paper article [11] in there, and half the truth in that article is not mentioned; the part that is about the problems with the people who were fired. There are a lot of positive things going on under his management, and one has to put all that in here if someone wants to give a clear picture.

I don't think Wikipedia should be the place that former employees could take revenge from their managers. I was Dr.Fotouhi's former student a few years ago and created this page for him out of respect, and I know he is a great man. He has made many positive changes in the CS department and I know he is doing the same at the college. However, I do not have the time to deal with all these repeated revenge edits. I appreciate if you just delete the page. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shobeir f (talk • contribs) 19:46, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * My advice would be that you enter the above on the article's talk page – just for the record – and then make the changes you deem necessary to the article itself. It will serve as a reference point if the issues resume after the current protection expires. Favonian (talk) 21:16, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I have made the changes. I didn't remove any references just changed the tone and sentences. Shobeir_f (talk) 22:39, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Great man, please. Only a weak and insecure man needs a big office to compensate for his own inner smallness. Dean Kummler was a great man. The Kummler statue is inscribed "his heart was for the students." Fotouhi's heart is strictly for himself.


 * It's not just former employees who are angry. DONORS are pissed off too. "It was clear there was no hope for the TEAM project to continue under Fotouhi," said Strauss, who said he has terminated payments on his pledge, at least until another dean is in place. "I'm not going to give them another nickel." That's from Crain's Detroit Business. Detroit Joseph (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok. Here we go again! This is why I requested if we could delete the page. I really don’t have time for these edit wars. Detroit Joseph has obviously exteremly biased and negatively opinion about Farshad Fotouhi. He should not use the Wikipedia page to take his revenge. Below are some of Detroit Joseph’s comments about Farashd Fotouhi on different talk pages. He not only expresses extremely negative comments, unproven and undocumented professional and personal accusations about him, but he even makes racial offenses towards him and absurdly compares him to Ahmadinejad to express his negative feelings:


 * On []: “You need to read Crain's Detroit Business, to know that your hero, Farshad Fotouhi, is a very bad, corrupt man. Just because he's Iranian doesn't mean he's a good guy. Look at Mamud Ahmenutjob.” and “you just can't accept that Crain's Detroit and the Detroit News have called your Iranian friend out on his corruption. Detroit Joseph (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2014 (UTC)”


 * On []: “Since when is the truth bias? Are you going to wring your hands because the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad article calls him corrupt? Read Crain's Detroit Business http://www.crainsdetroit.com/assets/PDF/CD89200615.PDF page 8 or 9. Should Ahmedinajad's Wikipedia article just be a carbon copy of his page on the Iranian government's website?” and “Only a weak and insecure man needs a big office to compensate for his own inner smallness. Dean Kummler was a great man. The Kummler statue is inscribed "his heart was for the students." Fotouhi's heart is strictly for himself.”


 * On []: “Farshad Fotouhi is an extremely corrupt man who should never have been appointed dean of anything. His greed and arrogance are costing the whole university wealthy donors, world-class researchers, student goodwill and tenured faculty, and who knows what else. Detroit Joseph (talk) 02:13, 19 February 2014 (UTC)”


 * I’m also pointing out some of the guidelines from the Biographies of living persons page for reference: “An editor who is involved in a significant off-wiki controversy or dispute with another individual, or who is an avowed rival of that individual, should not edit that person's biography or other material about that person, given the possible conflict of interest.“, “Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives.", “Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all.”, “Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.”, “Pages that are unsourced and negative in tone, especially when they appear to have been created to disparage the subject, should be deleted at once if there is no policy-compliant version to revert to”


 * Could you please suggest what to do, if you don't want to delete the page? Thank you. shobeif_f (talk) 03:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not a rival of Fotouhmeister, I'm not an engineer. Wait, neither is he. But I've never been a WSU employee. My daughter graduated from WSU, and her best friend majored in engineering. That best friend of my daughter's tried very hard to get Associate Dean Gerald Thompkins reinstated at the College of Engineering. Thompkins was the top-ranking African American administrator in the college. And he was fired by... guess who.
 * When I looked deeper into it, the Grand Fotouhpoobah had also fired a lot of white and Jewish employees. The racism theory went out the window. But I found the reason for the firings: a construction project to enlarge the Fotouhnary's office. That construction project was finished in 2012.
 * In 2013, DTE gave the school a grant for renovations of things that actually benefit students. That project will be completed this year. Tells you something about the man's priorities, doesn't it? Detroit Joseph (talk) 22:12, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Here are some information about the claims brought up on the page: [] "Wayne State University is standing by Farshad Fotouhi, dean of the College of Engineering, whom faculty members have accused of lacking integrity and, last week, sparked the resignation of a longtime professor. "I really want to emphasize that Dean Fotouhi is doing a good job," Margaret Winters, provost, said Monday. "A great deal of what we see going on here is that some older, more established faculty frankly don't want to see change." Winters said Fotouhi had been hired several years ago to make key changes in the college, such as raising research productivity and boosting enrollment in engineering, and that he was meeting those goals -- to some professors' chagrin." "Winters said the university had thoroughly looked into claims against Fotouhi on two separate occasions and that the dean had come up clean." Dr wiki editor (talk) 05:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


 * IF it's really just "that some older, more established faculty frankly don't want to see change," why is it that Paul Strauss stopped his $2 million contribution to the college? Also, take a look at the Kummler statue at Kummler Commons. Do you honestly think anyone will ever make a statue for Fotouhi? Detroit Joseph (talk) 00:46, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Fotouhi can intimidate The South End http://www.thesouthend.wayne.edu/news/article_9138f706-90f9-11e3-920a-001a4bcf6878.html but he can't intimidate Crain's Detroit Business or the Detroit News. Detroit Joseph (talk) 00:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

A little timeline
For a little more perspective, let's zoom out a little:


 * 1933 College of Engineering is founded.
 * 2007 Dean Emeritus Ralph Kummler obtains major donations to expand the building in order to provide students with more labs and classrooms. He stays in his old, small office, in the old part of the building.
 * 2009 The Danto Center is completed. Kummler retires and dies soon after. An endowed memorial scholarship is immediately started by his friends, as well as plans to hire a sculptor to make a statue of him. Mumtaz Usmen is temporary dean.
 * 2010 Provost Ron Brown has the faculty interview new dean candidates. Six men are interviewed, the faculty are the least impressed with Fotouhi.
 * 2011 Brown unilaterally decides Fotouhi is the new dean, ignoring faculty objections. Fotouhi starts firing people left and right, and keeps doing so long after the budget is balanced. Paul Strauss stops his ongoing donations to the school. As a misguided gesture of goodwill, Fotouhi is inducted into the Order of the Engineer even though he is actually not an engineer at all.
 * 2012 Fotouhi moves into a temporary office at the Maccabees Building while a construction company enlarges his permanent office in the old part of the engineering building.
 * 2013 Someone (maybe Fotouhi, not sure) gets DTE to donate money for much needed renovations to the old part of the building.
 * 2014 Prof. Woodward resigns.
 * 2016 Fotouhi is scheduled to be evaluated, even though an investigation into his criminal activities was called for much sooner.

What Crain's and the Detroit News have published is just smoke. And where there is smoke, there is fire. Detroit Joseph (talk) 22:27, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

(***it seems a lot has happened between 2011-2014. At the very least published News article's titles and citations should be made available to readers; as well as quotations of content of those articles in order to not have censorship of accurate information. Interesting you should mention former Dean Gerald Thompkins, the first shoe to drop. I understand many in the WSU and Detroit community have missed his presence at WSU very much. Undoubtedly, if he were not such an honorable and loyal servant of WSU more would have been made, and perhaps published, concerning that event).

Silanegate and Officegate
I just realized: I could have died on that fateful day in March 2011. I was work-study at engineering Monday-Thursday that whole month. Before Fatouhi, being work-study at engineering was homework heaven. Now, because so many staffers have been fired, work-study at engineering is like something out of a Dilbert cartoon. That guy is ruining it even for students who aren't majoring in engineering.

If the timeline posted above is correct (it looks like it is) then Silanegate occurred before expansion of Fotuohi's office could begin. So his life was in danger too. No office, no matter how big, is worth that kind of risk.

As far as I can tell, there is only one news source for the office expansion, a letter by Rachel Kast to Crain's Detroit Business:

"Dean Farshad Fotouhi renovated the entire business office suite while student laboratory equipment hasn't been updated in decades and the front steps of the building are literally crumbling." http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20130616/NEWS/306169980/letters-auner-challenges-wsu-claims

I wanted to add that to the article but I can't. Signed, me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.109.124.241 (talk) 21:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * A letter to the editor by a disgruntled person is not a reliable source by Wikipedia standards. You see, this is an encyclopedia article, not a blog post or a hit piece.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  06:57, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Have you driven by the building in the past four years? If you drove by (without getting out of your car) there is one aspect of Rachel Kast's letter you could have verified with your own eyes: the awful state of the front steps to the building for the Anthony Wayne Drive entrance. And if you had gone in the building in 2012, you would have seen that the office expansion happened then, well before the front steps were repaired. That shows you this guy's priorities very clearly. Detroit Joseph (talk) 21:05, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't live in Detroit these days, so I can't engage in that type of original research which isn't allowed on Wikipedia. I now live in California.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  04:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Contentious material removed per BLP
I have removed the following section per BLP - it is tendentiously written and fails to even-handedly portray the controversy in context.


 * He was appointed dean by the provost in March of 2011 to facilitate the transfer of the Department of Computer Science out of the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences and into the College of Engineering.


 * While at WSU he has secured research funding and contributions. Since joining WSU, Dr. Fotouhi has graduated 25 Ph.D. and 30 M.S. students.


 * He generated controversy with the firings of several people, including non-faculty personnel who worked under Professor Greg Auner. Auner retained eight of his original 24 employees due to contractual issues. On March 17, 2011, the locks were changed on the doors to Auner's labs, and campus police escorted members of the his team and his students out of the building. A research professor from the team informed Fotouhi the lab contained silane gas under high pressure and need to be safely shutdown. One of the former technicians was found and returned to shut down the lab.
 * The fallout continues with the loss of high-profile donors and now a faculty member: Prof. James Woodyard, an associate professor in the electrical and computer engineering department, announced his resignation at the end of a WSU Board of Governors meeting on February 7, 2014, because of Fotouhi's "lack of integrity." ''

I request that the interested parties discuss the section here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:55, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * My specific objections are as follows:
 * Stating that he was appointed for a specific reason is unsupported by any source.
 * "Controversy" is largely a weasel word. We should state the plain facts.
 * The section goes into extensive, unnecessary detail (locks changed, police, silane gas, etc.) that is immaterial and undue weight.
 * "Fallout continues" is inherently POV.
 * NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

In response to your specific objections:
 * The former chair of computer science is appointed dean of engineering (even though he's not an engineer) right before that department goes into the engineering college? Even though he was the last choice of the engineering faculty?
 * "Controversy" is a weasel word? Fair enough.
 * That the engineering building could have exploded thanks to Fotouhi's intransigence is given undue weight!!???
 * Fine, "fallout continues" is out. Detroit Joseph (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


 * PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM SILANE GAS EXPLOSIONS http://www.sozogaku.com/fkd/en/cfen/CA1000614.html It happened in Osaka and it could have happened in Detroit, thanks to guess who? Detroit Joseph (talk) 01:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Good question! Thanks to guess who? About the Silane gas that you are trying to make a big deal of; Even if truth (which according to the same article you posted Fotouhi does not confirm!)! From the article you posted I read people were escorted out from the lab and the technicians who were in charge of the equipment hadn't the "integrity" to turn the equipment off before leaving or say something! The article says campus police escort not a SWAT team evacuation! In fact, the lab members left a time bomb and endangered people's lives just because they were losing their jobs?
 * If you were really looking for truth you wouldn't hand pick some parts of the article [] to make an attack page. Leaving out parts such as:
 * "The university says Auner's research team and lab operations cost more than the research was bringing in." "Greg's activity had a very substantial deficit. He couldn't support 24 people. Greg kept saying money is coming in, money is coming in. But it didn't come," WSU President Allan Gilmour said." "Gilmour said Fotouhi became dean with a mandate to enact change. "We thought the College of Engineering needed to be a center of excellence and it wasn't," said Gilmour. " "Clean room operations, university-supplied figures show, were running at a loss most years, from 2004 to 2009, ranging from $45,331 to $293,075. In the last full year Auner ran it, it had a surplus of $70,383. Under new management last year, it grew to $262,490. "
 * Gilmour and Fotouhi said they were blindsided by the fact that for-profit companies were using the clean room. They said Auner had arranged the companies to use the lab on his own, in violation of university policies, further proof the clean room needed to be put under other control. "
 * "They were using the clean room without our knowledge and without contracts or leases. That's just not the way it's done," said Gilmour.
 * Anyway, the article is full of he said she said things and does not include any conclusive facts about anyone.
 * And about sweeping things under the rug! you have removed all my Failed verification tags in your edit wars!
 * Furthermore, anyone can see your hatred towards Fotouhi just by reading your comments on this talk page.
 * There is clear fact, which you apparently don't like at all about these allegations : The university had thoroughly looked into claims against Fotouhi on two separate occasions and that the dean had come up clean. [] Dr wiki editor (talk) 03:18, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The former chair of computer science is appointed dean of engineering (even though he's not an engineer) right before that department goes into the engineering college? Even though he was the last choice of the engineering faculty?
 * This is a series of unsupported negative inferences and unsupported claims. This has no place in Wikipedia.
 * That the engineering building could have exploded thanks to Fotouhi's intransigence is given undue weight!!???
 * Your assertion that there was any significant risk of an explosion is unsupported. Your assertion that Fotouhi is being intransigent is unsupported.
 * Wikipedia is not the place to air your personal vendettas and management disagreements with a person by editing their biography. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Detroit Joseph, you are clearly engaged in a personal dispute with this article subject and have a massive conflict of interest. It is patently obvious from your tendentious edits that you are here for one reason and one reason only: to attempt to slant Wikipedia's biography of this person in a negative manner. This you may not do. If you do not voluntarily refrain from editing this biography, I will request that you be topic-banned. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I am in complete and total agreement with here. This is neither a blog nor an attack website devoted to tearing down the reputation of Farshad Fotouhi. It is instead a neutral encyclopedia. Those who want to attack him should get a blog and post to their heart's content there.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  05:34, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I also am in agreement with this content being excessive, weakly claimed notablity and attacking and involved in general terms and that is exactly why why I removed it yesterday. The edit fight by User:Detroit Joseph to repeatedly replace it was a shame and his wiki edits https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Detroit_Joseph&offset=&limit=500&target=Detroit+Joseph reveal a clear personal involvment of some kind. Mosfetfaser (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * O tell me, what is the personal involvement of the Crain's Detroit Business reporter? What is the personal involvement of the Detroit News reporter? Detroit Joseph (talk) 21:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The personal involvement is yours, continually cherry-picking information to portray this person in the most negative light possible. You have repeatedly made it clear in talk page comments that you despise him. You seem incapable of NPOV editing of this article, and uninvolved editors can see that clearly. I for one will not allow you to turn this Wikipedia biography into a negative hit piece.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  21:58, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * "Cherry-picking"!!!!??????? "Pumpkin-picking" would be more precise. Detroit Joseph (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * You are clearly unable to edit this article in compliance with NPOV and BLP policy. Please stop your policy violating editing now.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  22:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

That's enough of this nonsense. This page was made by someone who has bias for Fotouhi yet you don't allow someone who dislikes the man to say a word despite the fact he does have a source? Joseph clearly has a negative tone so write the article without a biased tone that still states the facts! If this is a legitimate encyclopedia then it is the duty of the editors to write as much information about the man as possible, including information that can be conceived as negative. By merely drowning out an attempt at editing despite its failings, and not actually spending the time to look into the source and creating what you would call a balanced article you have hurt this webpage and it's attempts to be a REAL encyclopedia. Do your job.