Talk:Fascist Manifesto

When was the Manifesto written and by whom? mythrandir 17:52. 23 Dec 2003. (EST)

I am a new user and in my new user talk it said a good definition was needed. Well I added my own, I hope it appears neutral and insigtful; however, I do not know where to go after my definition... this article needs a better transition. Dorfeb 01:32, Jan 13, 2004 (UTC)

Here's a first crack at a translation of the Manifesto itself. (I don't really read Italian; I'm fudging from knowledge of French and Babelfish...)

--

Italians! Here is the program of a genuinely Italian movement, revolutionary because it is antidogmatic, (strongly and unprejudicially innovative?).

For the political problem, we want:

a) Universal suffrage according to regional lists, with proportional representation; the vote and [electoral?] elegibility for women.

b) The minimum age for voters lowered to 18 years; that for representatives to 25 years.

c) The abolition of the Senate.

d) The convocation of a National Assembly for the duration of three years, the first task of which is the formation of a constitution for the State.

e) The formation of National Technical Councils for labor, for industry, for transport, for public health, for communications, etc., elected by the whole of the profession or trade, with legislative power, and (directed?) to elect a Commissioner General with ministerial authority.

For the social problem, we want:

a) The prompt promulgation of a law which sanctions for all workers the eight hour legal working day.

b) A minimum wage.

c) The participation of labor representatives in the technical operation of industry.

d) The confidence of these same proletarian organizations (which are morally and technically worthy [?]) in the management of industry and public services.

e) The rapid and complete systemization (?) of the railways and of all transport industries.

f) A necessary modification of the bill on disability and old-age insurance, lowering the age limit, presently proposed at 65 years, to 55 years.

For the military problem, we want:

a) The institution of a national militia with a brief training period and a completely defensive mission.

b) The nationalization of all arms and munitions factories.

c) A national foreign policy recognizing the value in the world, amidst the peaceful competition of civilization, of the Italian Nation.

For the financial problem, we want:

a) A strong extroardinary tax on capital, having a progressive character, which has the nature of a true partial expropriation of all wealth.

b) The siezure of all the property of religious orders and the abolition of all episcopal privelege, which constitutes an enormous drain on the nation and a privelege of the few.

c) The revision of all war contracts and the siezure of 85% of war profits.

--

Can someone who really knows Italian take a look at this? I'd like to have an Italian-speaker correct my translation before I put it up on the real page. Tkinias 04:39, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Mithrandir: I believe that it was written by Mussolini himself. There is some question as to whether the later Doctrine of Fascism was really written by him, but I think this is probably his work. AFAIK it appeared without byline in the newspaper he edited.

Tkinias 04:42, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Seizure of war profits, minumum wage, 8 hour work day, tax on capital, and you call this "rightest" elements. Screw you people. What Academic BS is this? Pure and unadalterated propaganda. LIARS LIARS LIARS. You people sicken me. WHEELER 17:39, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh, Fascism certainly changed a lot over the years. If you noticed, a sizable part of the Fascist Manifesto is dedicated to expressing their support for democracy, and their desire to increase the democratic rights of the people... but once they came to power, they didn't exactly do that, did they? - Mihnea Tudoreanu

It seems similar to the situation of communism. After the russian civil war, the Russian Communist Party became less and less communist and yet their terrible crimes against humanity have become synonomous with what they claimed to believe. Many communists today would argue that the USSR was not a good example of Communism. I wonder if it could equally be argued that Fascism was not represented properly by Italy of Germany? It seems that Fascism was originally intended to be some sort of corporatism, with standard democratic rights, could it be argued that instead of the meaning of Fascism changing when Italy changed that Italy lost through corruption its more acceptable elements of fascism and degenerated into a form of totalitarianism? It seems that if this were true that our present day nations are alot closer to being fascist than Italy or Germany ever were, as so conveniantly argued by several writers, but not in the way they mean. It also means that fascism should not be demonized in the way it is, it should not be thought of a synonomous with totalitarianism. I personally dont support the original fascism as shown in documents like the Fascist Manifesto, but I condemn the fact that its original meaning has been so changed. Perhaps if beyond all chance that my reasoning is correct then this should be mentioned somewhere on the article on Fascism itself.Real World 04:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Fascism didn't change as a consequence of being in power, the change happened before the March on Rome that thrust them into power in 1922 (see: Doctrine of Fascism by Mussolini, 1932), keeping in mind this was written in 1919. The reason they changed was because what Mussolini became was what Fascism intended to be (at least until Hitler started to overshadow him in 1936), however when the Fascist Manifesto was written, such extreme proposals were not going to get them into power.  To use your communism example, what you see in this document is sort of analogous to revisionist socialism (socialism via democracy rather than revolution) while what showed up after the March on Rome was more like Marxist-Leninism because once they became popular they were in more of a position to test their limits.

Source text
This probably needs to go somewhere other than the main article. Text follows. --Viriditas | Talk 05:18, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Original Italian version

Il manifesto dei fasci di combattimento published in Il Popolo d'Italia (the newspaper directed by Mussolini) on June 6 1919

Italiani! Ecco il programma di un movimento genuinamente italiano. Rivoluzionario perché antidogmatico; fortemente innovatore antipregiudiziaiolo.

Per il problema politico: Noi vogliamo:
 * a) Suffragio universale a scrutinio di lista regionale, con rappresentanza proporzionale, voto ed eleggibilità per le donne.
 * b) II minimo di età per gli elettori abbassato ai I8 anni; quello per i deputati abbassato ai 25 anni.
 * c) L'abolizione del Senato.
 * d) La convocazione di una Assemblea Nazionale per la durata di tre anni, il cui primo compito sia quello di stabilire la forma di costituzione dello Stato.
 * e) La formazione di Consigli Nazionali tecnici del lavoro, dell'industria, dei trasporti, dell'igiene sociale, delle comunicazioni, ecc. eletti dalle collettività professionali o di mestiere, con poteri legislativi, e diritto di eleggere un Commissario Generale con poteri di Ministro.

Per il problema sociale: Noi vogliamo:
 * a) La sollecita promulgazione di una legge dello Stato che sancisca per tutti i lavori la giornata legale di otto ore di lavoro.
 * b) I minimi di paga.
 * c) La partecipazione dei rappresentanti dei lavoratori al funzionamento tecnico dell'industria.
 * d) L'affidamento alle stesse organizzazioni proletarie (che ne siano degne moralmente e tecnicamente) della gestione di industrie o servizi pubblici.
 * e) La rapida e completa sistemazione dei ferrovieri e di tutte le industrie dei trasporti.
 * f) Una necessaria modificazione del progetto di legge di assicurazione sulla invalidità e sulla vecchiaia abbassando il limite di età, proposto attualmente a 65 anni, a 55 anni.

Per il problema militare: Noi vogliamo:
 * a) L'istituzione di una milizia nazionale con brevi servizi di istruzione e compito esclusivamente difensivo.
 * b) La nazionalizzazione di tutte le fabbriche di armi e di esplosivi.
 * c) Una politica estera nazionale intesa a valorizzare, nelle competizioni pacifiche della civiltà, la Nazione italiana nel mondo.

Per il problema finanziario: Noi vogliamo:
 * a) Una forte imposta straordinaria sul capitale a carattere progressivo, che abbia la forma di vera espropriazione parziale di tutte le ricchezze.
 * b) II sequestro di tutti i beni delle congregazioni religiose e l'abolizione di tutte le mense Vescovili che costituiscono una enorme passività per la Nazione e un privilegio di pochi.
 * c) La revisione di tutti i contratti di forniture di guerra ed il sequestro dell' 85% dei profitti di guerra.

In II popolo d'Italia, 6 giugno 1919.


 * How bout Wikisource, that has the full text of the Communist Manifest, Fututurist Manifesto, ect, ect.....--ThrashedParanoid&#9733; 03:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Article name
I think this page should be moved to either The Manifesto of the Fascist Struggle (the work's proper title) or Fascist Manifesto (with manifesto capitalized, since it is a shortened version of the title). I'm not sure if it's even known as "The Fascist Manifesto", so I think it should be moved to "The Manifesto of the Fascist Struggle". Any objections? Ecto (talk) 16:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved to Fascist Manifesto. --BDD (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Fascist manifesto → Manifesto of the Italian Fasci of Combat – The full name should be used as the title of this article for several reasons:

1. A "fascio" was a league, and as there were more than one such organization at the time this document was published, it is important that the full name identify this particular organization. The Italian word "fascismo" later came to represent an ideology.

2. This document represents a primitive form of fascism that changed significantly into Italian fascism under the leadership of Mussolini, so it should be clear that this is not actually definitive of what "fascism" has come to mean.

3. The document that did formally establish the political and ideological foundations of Italian fascism is "The Manifesto of the Fascist Intellectuals." The Doctrine of Fascism also defines the ideology much more accurately than does this so-called Fascist Manifesto.

Possible controversy: It is true that this document seems to be commonly referred to as the “Fascist Manifesto.” However, it doesn't ever occur in Italian, and when this simplified term is used in English, it lends credence to the simplistic impression that fascism is fundamentally a leftist ideology (see above discussion). --Relisted. Red Slash 03:34, 13 February 2014 (UTC) Julierbutler (talk) 23:41, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with your points, but WP:CONCISE compels me to seek a shorter title. I propose either Fascist Manifesto (to make it clear that this is a proper noun) or Fascist Manifesto of 1919. In any case, "manifesto" must be capitalized. Red Slash 21:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Fascist Manifesto doesn't convey the original context of the title, though, because in reality, there was no such equivalent Italian word as "fascist" at the time this manifesto was written. How do we even know that no other fascio, or league, wrote their own manifesto that never became famous because Mussolini pretty much stole the limelight? My point is about semantics. Leaving this as "Fascist Manifesto" is equivalent to naming a "League Charter" without identifying which league - the League of Women Voters, the League of Nations, the Hanseatic League, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, etc etc. Julierbutler (talk) 21:59, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * So, you're saying that the topic of this article is not the primary meaning of the phrase Fascist Manifesto? Andrewa (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose the move to Manifesto of the Italian Fasci of Combat. The rationale is openly soapy, and the proposed target imprecise and in other ways also contrary to policy. I do however agree with Red Slash regarding capitalisation, Fascist Manifesto would be far better and and Fascist Manifesto of 1919 is acceptable. Should we relist? Andrewa (talk) 20:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good idea, Andrewa. This could really use some insight from an expert! Julierbutler, what do you think of the counterproposals? Red Slash 03:34, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I see the lack of accuracy in the present title as committing the sin of being "openly soapy" and my proposal as being the remedy. What I don't see is how naming the precise fascio, or league, among many, whose principles this document represents could possibly be imprecise. And I admit that I am not a very experienced Wikipedia editor, as of yet, so could you please give me some specific ways that my proposal is contrary to policy Andrewa? Lastly, I very much agree with  Slash  on the point that this could use some insight from an expert. Julierbutler (talk) 21:59, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good questions. I assume you've read WP:AT. And yet you say this document seems to be commonly referred to as the “Fascist Manifesto.” In terms of WP:AT this is a prima facie case that the current article title is the correct one. You continue when this simplified term is used in English, it lends credence to the simplistic impression that fascism is fundamentally a leftist ideology. I agree with you, but this is not the place to promote our views on what people should call the manifesto. It's certainly not any reason to ignore the common name, just the opposite... avoiding questions such as this is probably the most important reason we prefer to use common names. Andrewa (talk) 23:51, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to sound like a broken record, but the current title is not okay! It should be capitalized! Face-smile.svg Red Slash 02:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand your point about using common names, so let me be more clear about my concerns. The reason I stated "this document seems to be commonly referred to as the “Fascist Manifesto” was because, when I did a search for this term on the Internet, it did return several results, so I was acknowledging that the term is out there. However, several articles site this Wikipedia page, so there is some degree of tail wagging the dog going on. Also, the "common" usage is prominently on the part of right-wing ideologues trying to make the case that political progressivism leads to fascism. But to get to the bottom of this, we should look at the Italian language. If this is, indeed, THE Fascist Manifesto, why is there no corresponding article on Italian Wikipedia? There is an article on the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento, which was established by Mussolini after the end of WWI, with a section on the manifesto, but no article on the manifesto, itself. The only detail given is the notion of the "third way" between the two poles of right-wing and left-wing extremism. As I point out above, the whole problem is that this is a mistranslation from Italian to English. The term "fascist" did not exist when this document was written. It came about later, having arisen from the word used in the original Italian title "fasci," which means "league," of which there were several around Italy. In fact, the man credited as being the main author left the movement as it morphed into what we know today as "fascism." Again, I am not the one trying to impose my political views on anyone. I am trying to correct an error in the historical record. Julierbutler (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. My bad. Above should read the current title (but properly capitalised)... Andrewa (talk) 09:18, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sentence should be removed
This sentence that follows a summary of the main tenants and goals of the Fascist Manifesto should be deleted for intentionally misdirecting the topic with an unrelated and generalized counterfactual meant to paint the topic at hand in a negative light. The sentence is this:

"However in Practice a Fascist State is often a reflection of the leaders values and opinions, as seen in Nazi Germany and their policies towards the Jewish Population."

The declaration that "sure this is what fascism tried to do but actually bad actors ruin it with their personal prejudices" is a massive generalization and is unfitly situated in this article. It is an opinionated misdirection to colour the content of this page in a bad light by comparing it to something very different, that being the Holocaust no less. This "However" does not even refer to Italy, it refers to Germany, and the nature of national socialism, NOT (Italian) Fascism, which this article, and ESPECIALLY this Manifesto, is about.

This sentence has no place in a Wikipedia page that is trying to be objective let alone COHERENT. CarterIsBad (talk) 18:59, 1 January 2023 (UTC)