Talk:Fastball

Nolan Ryan
so i hear that nolan ryan is the fastest pitcher ever. i hear that he could throw at 106 miles per hour. is this true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.166.172.178 (talk • contribs).


 * Yeah right, i dont think that Nolan Ryan could throw 106 miles per hour! There are only an couple of pitchers who I have heard of who could through over 100mph, and those pitchers are Randy Johnson of the New York Yankees, and Bobby Jenks of the Chicago White Soxs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.68.251.126 (talk • contribs).

NOPE! There is alot more where that came from. Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Jason Schmidt, Carlos Zamaya, Robb Nen, Eric Gagne, Billy Wagner, Curt Schilling, Pedro Martinez, Eric Threets and thats just off the top of my head!! I could believe that Ryan threw 106 MPH. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.106.188.127 (talk • contribs).

Joel Zumaya was clocked at 103 at Yankee Stadium last year in the postseason. As far as Don Sutton, or anyone else, throwing 112, I wouldn't give that any credence at all. At the very least, show us a citation? To my knowledge, there is no official measurement exceeding 103-104. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.57.140 (talk • contribs) 8 March 2007
 * Don Sutton never threw 100. That's crazy. He probably rarely topped 90, even in his prime. Sutton was not a power pitcher at all. But lots of pitchers, Ryan among them, have thrown a verified 100 mph pitch at some point in their careers. It's not unusual anymore. Here's a complete list: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/fastest-pitcher-in-baseball.shtml Jsc1973 (talk) 02:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Six-seam Fastball
Anybody have a clue what a six-seam fastball is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.180.238.138 (talk • contribs).


 * Something thrown by someone with a really big hand? Never heard of it..--SodiumBenzoate 09:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I heard when nolan Ryan,early in his career with the Mets was in the bullpen(not worrying about control),you know just airing it out-was clocked at 110 M.P.H with a gun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.233.223 (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If possible to throw, a Six Seam fastball would be the fastest pitch in baseball.213.149.61.120 (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Bull Durham
In one part of the movie, Costner tells the batter that the pitcher will throw a "deuce." Was the "deuce" a 2-seam fastball, or some other pitch?--KoopaTroopa211 00:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The deuce is a different versionof the change-up. It is a slower pitch then the fastball. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.106.188.127 (talk • contribs).


 * Deuce=curveball. Called that way because of the number of fingers the catcher puts down for the sign.  1 finger=fastball, 2=curve, 3=changeup/slider/whatever is the pitcher's third best pitch. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.165.167.21 (talk • contribs).

Splitter article
The Split Fingered fastball needs its own article; it's not even remotely the same pitch; the splitter is called a "fastball" only because the arm action is the same. Mooshimanx 23:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Cutter
This paragraph appears choppy and includes incomplete sentences, apparently victim of a poor edit. More significantly, it also fails to actually explain the pitch. Could someone with adequate knowledge of the pitch please review. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Austinlwyman4 (talk • contribs) 23 April 2007

A cutter isn't a four-seamer, it's a two-seamer. You can't even throw a cutter four seam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.235.150.129 (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This is objectively incorrect. Baseballsavant.mlb.com confirms that most cutters are thrown with a four-seam spin orientation. The four-seam orientation itself induces movement perpendicular to the spin axis through seam-shifted wake. Furthermore, I have thrown one. SolitudeAeturnus1992 (talk) 11:22, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Splitting articles
The individual fastball pages were merged to this page about a year ago without discussion, and I think they should be re-split. I believe there is enough content potential to justify separate articles and I don't think there is much synergy gained by having them together. Furthermore, the other types of pitches, like the knuckle curve, have their own articles. For some reason, the information on the sinker was lost, but I'll exhume it. Basar 23:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Rising fastball versus four seamer
Is there a real difference between these. From what I have read, there is no technical difference. I'll combine the sections if there isn't a difference. Basar 17:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Risers don't actually happen, but a rising fastball is "slang" for a four-seam too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.235.150.129 (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If you throw a four-seam fastball overhand it rises. Throw a four-seam fastball sidearm and it runs. SolitudeAeturnus1992 (talk) 11:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Incurve/Side arm fastball
1. To me, the way McGraw tells it, an incurve sounds more or less like a tailing fastball, not a straight-rope four seamer. If that's the case then it should be noted that "incurves" are not pitches thrown necessarily as a supplement to a four seamer, but that the true absolutely straight four seamer is very rare and most fastballs move one way or another.

2. Side arm fastballs are slower than other fastballs? I don't think there's any evidence to support that. Walter Johnson, who just about everyone claims was the hardest throwing pitcher ever before Nolan Ryan, threw straight side-arm, sometimes dipping down a little below that. Velocity doesn't rely on arm angle, it relies on mechanics and leg power. The arm acts merely as a whip. Another example of a really hard throwing side armer: Randy Johnson. There are more, I'm sure. The truth is that pitchers who throw straight side arm are not common today, and the pitchers who do throw side arm are usually the "crafty" and "finesse" pitchers like Orlando Hernandez or Jose Contreras, who don't throw hard at any angle. Submarine-style pitchers like Chad Bradford often adopt a submarine style of throwing because of their lack of velocity. The odd arm angle makes up for the lack of speed, as does the movement created by throwing from that angle.

As a supplementary note, I would suspect that a lot of the "incurves" being thrown, as per McGraw's description, come from side armers. I suspect this for several reasons. A very cursory examination of throwing styles leads me to believe that side-arm and low three-quarters were much more popular arm angles in the earlier days of baseball (i.e. until about the 1930s, McGraw's era). When you release a baseball thrown straight overhand with a four seam grip, it will rotate with a maximum amount of backspin. If thrown exactly overhand, it shouldn't deviate one way or another sideways as the backspin is perfectly vertical. However, most pitchers don't throw perfectly overhand, they throw somewhere between overhand and sidearm, usually falling into the three-quarters category. Now, imagine the backspin from an overhand pitch, except tilted 45 degrees one way or the other. That spin, which would have previously only made the ball deviate upwards or down will now cause the ball to move laterally from the mound to the plate.

Request lead rewrite
I almost put on the article, but that seems a bit of a bludgeon. The lead needs to be rewritten to provide more context for the thing is and what it's used for -- yanno, all that context that readers who don't have a clue need -- before jumping into the technicalities of the types of fastballs. I'd even suggest putting the types and in a separate section, before the details, but that might make the lead too short -- but certainly separate out those into a new last paragraph of the lead. I'd do these edits myself but frankly I don't know enough about the topic -- growing up in the States, you can't avoid learning what it means, but that's about all for me. —Quasirandom (talk) 01:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree lead rewrite
One of the elements in the lead which is particularly complex is the discussion of the "exploding fastball." It really belongs with the "rising fastball" explanation, as both are illusions conveyed to the batter. I think. I'm particularly unsure of what the intent of the text about "exploding fastball" is. Steve (talk) 12:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

One of the stupidest articles on wikipedia
The information in this article is, simply, junk. It has no basis in science. It is simply a collection of random thoughts from people who have been around. The reality, which I'm sure no one wants to state, is that there is no difference in flight path or speed between 2 seam and 4 seam fastballs. There is simply a difference in the way the two pitches are perceived by a batter

While you are correct that the article as previously written was substantially unsubstantiated by the modern understanding of pitching. 2 and 4 seam fastballs are absolutely different pitches. The modern understanding of seam-shifted wake affirms that the different seam orientations do produce different movement even if every other aspect of the pitch is held constant. SolitudeAeturnus1992 (talk) 11:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Rising fastball
It's impossible with overhand delivery, but with sidearm and even more submarine it should be possible, should it not? That way the ball can be thrown from lower to higher point. 213.149.61.120 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Types or terms
I've heard of it would be good to cover those 213.149.61.120 (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * moving fastball ("people who aren't properly taught how to throw learn to throw like that; different from those from a pitching machine"),
 * running fastball,
 * tailing fastball,
 * sinking fastball,
 * dipping fastball,
 * veering fastball

TLDR: These are not pitches and don't belong in an encyclopedic resource.

These are largely meaningless terms describing wildly inconsistent minutiae as distinct pitch types. We recognize unique pitch types to help us distinguish between verifiably unique things but there is objectively nothing to distinguishe here. The modern understanding of pitching science and MLB itself does not recognise such pitches and they never will as there is no analytical basis to define such pitches. The only types of fastball that are substantiated by modern science and MLB as distinct pitch types are 4-seam fastballs, sinkers, and cutters. A pitcher or alternatively an ill-informed fan can call a fastball the "ultra mega running h3cking chonkin 3.141592 seam rising cut dipping sunker" but it does immediately become a new pitch. Call a sinker a two-seam or anything else that you want. It doesn't change the fact that the are observable and verifiable physical phenomena at play with each of the three pitch types.

SolitudeAeturnus1992 (talk) 10:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Page Rewrite
I am currently working on a complete overhaul of this page. The page was absolutely full of antiquated, unsubstantiated, and unverifiable information that does not belong in an objective encyclopedic resource. It is being rewritten as an objective, at least somewhat substantiated review of the topic from a modern understanding of pitching science and its associated relevance to the game.

SolitudeAeturnus1992 (talk) 11:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)