Talk:Fate/stay night/Archive 3

Masters and Servants
I know it's a really big spoiler to mention who is a master, but I was thinking that the section might look better if it was seperated into "Master" and "Servant" categories rather than "Main Characters" and "Minor Characters." If you think this is too much of a spoiler to seperate like that, please let me know. I won't touch anything until someone gives me thumbs up. Mirioki 5:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Broken into Main characters, Secondary characters, and Minor characters, as there are some people out there who fit neither, and some minor characters get more screen time than some Servants.--み使い Mitsukai 15:14, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * there are also those who are in both categories Shinigami Josh 04:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * why is shinji in the "main character" section and sakura in the "supporting character" section? it doesn't make sense unless this article is entirely dedicated to the anime and not the fate story/universe as a whole Ricerocket 01:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Realta Nua?
What is this? --Raijinili 22:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * PS2 version of F/sn. Comes out on December 29th.  No h.  Fully voiced.  Moogy   ( talk )  01:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why isn't the name up on the page? --Raijinili 17:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is now. Moogy   ( talk )  14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Fate/Stay Night PS2 Release
Ive looked at most english sites and even the PS2 website itself, but I didn't find any mention of the game.

According to the article here, it is supposed to be out by 2006.

I haven't been to Japanese language sites so I don't know if they are mention there...

Are they really releasing a game on the PS 2 console? 134.117.166.74 06:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. The official website is linked above and here's the amazon.co.jp listing: . -Seventh Holy Scripture 07:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, okay thank you very much! Can't read Japanese script but at least I know. 134.117.166.74 19:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been delayed to 2007... Moogy   ( talk )  14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Terminology Stuff
Hey, everyone, it's been a while. Anyway, I was going to ask that we come to a consensus on some minor stuff: the first is History/Past as terms sections for describing the experiences of certain characters. I think "history" would be best for Servants, and "Past" for normal humans. Regarding terminolgy as well; spell names, like Gand and Reinforcement, should be italicized, and we should also agree on which terminology, that is, Imaging or Tracing, we should agree on for Shirou's skills. Terek 04:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Tracing seems to be the best choice in my opinion. It is the most commonly used term and the most widespread to date, not to mention Imaging has a few issues:
 * 1) Nobody has still made up their minds about it being Imaging or Imagining
 * 2) The term itself causes confusion because people know Tracing already and eventually think the two are separate things.
 * 3) It causes people to misinterpret what the whole process really is and makes them think Shirou can just "imagine" whatever he wants and make it appear.


 * As for History/Past and italics, that's perfect for me. Ephyon 12:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing Sources
I'm of the impression that Wikipedia doesn't like original research, and frankly much of the stuff here was taken from other Wikipedia articles or the fansites Fuyuki Wiki + The Moonlit World. How exactly do we cite our sources with fansites? I originally had citations for Archer in that manner for Fuyuki Wiki but then I was told by a fellow editor that's not permitted, so I'm not sure what to do. For now, I've just left an external links section at the bottom of certain pages with pertinent information related to what is brought up in the articles. Typically, The Moonlit World works for character biographies and Fuyuki Wiki for specific game parameters. Terek 04:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Many things probably cannot be cited accurately in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. You and I both know that The Moonlit World and Fuyuki are accurate, but there's nothing to corroborate them for Wikipedia, unfortunately... Unless, of course, you could actually find the magazine articles/fanbook passages that they translate, and reference them instead.  I believe that referencing the information with the original Japanese text by Nasu would work.  Perhaps I'll try to find some of the original material later...  In the meantime, I've been adding references that are covered by TYPE-MOON's official sites, such as release dates and such.  Oh yes, another nice thing to have would be a citation for F/sn's sales numbers/popularity... I'll work on finding that, as well.  Moogy   ( talk )  14:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Template Change

 * Regarding the template, I changed it since it was quite bulky and was cuttering up the bottom of pages a bit, especially the main page. The current one is long and is much better to look at; regarding the colour scheme, it's an old one I used and it's not Wikipedia standard, but I noticed a lot of articles from One Piece to the University of Southern California have "custom" looking templates, so I thought I'd add a touch of originality for FSN, since it's one of the few anime to actually *have* a tempalate (and the only visual novel), let alone a custom one.


 * I'm debating with myself, though, as to whether or not I should include Fate/Fake in the template as well. I noticed there was an article to it when I checked the "category" section for FSN. Do you lot think we should add it? Terek 06:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, Ok, I saw the the little edit war on the template page. Frankly I liked this version better. It is a little big, but it is fairly well organised and it's easy on the eye. To avoid spoilers completely, we could plug Gil down like with Sakura in Other if needed. I'd add Bazett and Caren under Other and Avenger either under Servants (My preference) or Other, since making that much of a distinction between Stay/Night and Ataraxia seems pretty pointless.


 * The version present at the bottom of the discussion page is smaller, but presenting Sakura, Kotomine and Soken as Masters right off the bat is a bit too much in regards to spoilers.


 * As for present version, while it does serve a certain purpose and there is a bit of organisation in the order in which they are mentioned, it looks a bit too randomised and clunky.


 * Anyway, that's my input on it. If we can't agree, I can suggest a voting on the issue. I mean, there would be like three votes in total considering how many people concern themselves with these articles, but it would be better than an eternal stalemate. Ephyon 22:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I really don't think Fatal/Fake should be on there. For one, it's not an official TYPE-MOON product, unlike Melty Blood.  In addition, its article is terrible.  Moogy   ( talk )  22:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I should explain some issues first before delving further into the template debate. According to TYPE-MOON's page for [Realta Nua] (which I based the template I provided on), TM considers listing Shirou, Rin, and Ilya as Masters to be non-spoiler. In the "other Gilgamesh + Zouken aren't even listed, so their very presence is some type of spoiler. At that, Shinji is marked as "other".


 * Now, since this FSN article is meant to be comprehensive, there's no way we could hide the fact that three Matou family members have no relation to the Holy Grail War, or that a guy with a name like "Gilgamesh" isn't a Servant. "Golden Servant" isn't a canon name, so we can't use that; as such, there are some spoilers we can't avoid, so I opted for the low-spoiler route that we have on the main page. So, this is why the template has the placements as they are.


 * At that, Caren and Bazette were removed since they are *not* from Fate/stay night! They're from hollow/ataraxia, and while relevant to the FSN story they were added ex-post facto, and therefore can't be included in the FSN template or the main page. The same goes for Avenger, who was merely "Angra Mainyu" in FSN and wasn't even directly addressed, he was just "pollution" in the grail.


 * Finally, regarding colours + dimensions. I've been told by some other editors on messageboards that width is preferred over depth, that is, wider templates are better than taller ones. This holds true on message boards as well; provided the frames aren't distorted, a long template works fine; check out what I did for the Servant Status in the Servant pages. At that, regarding the colour scheme, that's just one I whipped up; granted, some work did go into comparing the colours with other templates and looking for colours that complemented one another, but if you lot don't like 'em that's fine with me provided the format is preserved. I just thought that since a large number of "complete" templates have custom colours, and our very own "TYPE-MOON" template uses a mix of dark colours, FSN should distinguish itself from all the other articles. After all, the goal of all our work is not just to promote FSN, it's to produce an "A" rated anime article, of which there are only a handful and are not nearly as large, comprehensive, or interesting as FSN. Terek 04:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Additional Tables

 * How do I add extra tables to certain sections? Terek 06:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, I think I've got it. Terek 08:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Episode Citations

 * I noticed other articles are mentioning specific episodes in anime where something was introduced; while this would be difficult to accomplish for the game-related FSN material (because this article is oriented primarily toward the game), should we do this on the main and subpages? Terek 23:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the F/sn game is divided into days. I believe there are 15 days in each path, but don't quote me on that.  You could probably say something like "Fate route, day 7," if you wanted to reference like that.  Or hell, use an anime episode.  Moogy   ( talk )  00:49, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Abilities Sections for Servants

 * On an additional note, I feel we should start adding abilities sections for Servants, but they need to differ from the Noble Phantasm format since we can't put up images to condense the paragraphs of the descriptions, such that they look like poorly-constructed sentences stretched across a screen. My proposal is to include ranking specifics in the table information, but elaborate in paragraph form in the abilities section akin to what we have for Rin and Shirou. I'll write one up for Archer when I get home. Terek 23:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, all; I've finished the abilities section for Archer, and I'm proud to say that's the first *completed* article for the Servants. I'd ask all of you to follow that model for the other ones as well; I listed all the Servant attributes in the status tables, while elaborating in the abilities section. "role" describes what said Servants did in Fate/stay night, while true identity is their history. I think I'll be working on Gilgamesh next; what I really regret from not doing earlier this year was finishing Lancer and Berserker's biographies, since I did a ton of research and its all gone to waste since I deleted everything (hah). Terek 04:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Music Track Listing
I've got the FSN anime music track and I want to include that info on Wikipedia, but I'm not sure about how I should go around doing that. Suggestions? Terek 06:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You could try to create an article about the album as such articles like Kanon soundtracks, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni soundtracks or Ouran High School Host Club soundtracks to name a few. Just make sure you include the proper infobox for the album.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 06:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Genre

 * We've got two genre criteria on the main infobox; one lists the elements of FSN's plot, that is, action/fantasy/seinen/drama, and the other what type of game FSN is, that is, visual novel/eroge. How do I change the name of the second "genre" to "type"? Terek 06:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

GA candidate
In recognition of the hard work by Juhachi and others, I've nom'd this article for GA status here. Moogy  ( talk )  23:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article on hold
So what exactly is a good article? A good article usually has the following attributes:

1. It is well written. This article is definitely well-written. I wouldn't necessarily call it brilliant, but there is really nothing that definitely needs to be changed. However, the lead section needs to be rewritten. It says almost nothing about what the game is about. Please summarize the most important points of the article as stated in WP:LEAD.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. I don't doubt that it is. Since a lot of the article deals with story and characters, could you add the actual game to the references section? That way a bunch more of the article would be sourced. The sales and popularity sourcing is done well. I can't find any original research in the article. Good job.

3. It is broad in its coverage. All aspects of the game are covered well here, from reception to adaptations. Nice.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy. All points of view are presented here without being asserted. No instances of "Fate/stay night is the best thing ever!" or stuff like that.

5. It is stable. This article is stable.

6. It contains images where useful. The way this article uses images is good; the significant characters most definitely do need those illustrations. All of them are covered in fair use, as far as I can tell.

The article length is good. All the stuff that could be split into other articles has been split into other articles.

Just address the lead section issues and I think this could make GA status. Voretus/talk 00:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead has been edited and is more concise. Does the lead need more work? --Squilibob 07:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's looking a lot better. :) Once the minimum two days expires it'll probably work out. Voretus/talk 03:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article
Now that the lead is so much better, I am proud to promote Fate/stay night to good article status. The criteria have all been met very well. Keep up the good work, everyone. If you want to improve the article more, try expanding sections pertaining to the cultural influence of the game. Thanks. Voretus/talk 18:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Revert to previous poor version?
I see that this page has been reverted back to it's previous, poorer version, which even goes as far to include an incomplete episode list; an episode list I myself created and put into the List of Fate/stay night episodes article, not to mention the only reason this article acheived GA status was largely inpart to the recent edits of the past week or so. I brought up the discussion here so that maybe I could reason with you before we revert it again to the GA status article it became.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 07:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Poorer version? I honestly was going to raise complaints about recent vandalism when I noticed the huge numbers of hideous formating changes applied in my absence. And, of all people, you has the audacity to claim that you have made significant changes to this page, when nearly the whole article, from the main page to the Servant and Character pages, were done entirely by me, with ehe exception of the "Fate/stay night" scenario section, which is unsurprisingly totally plagiarised from The Moonlit World. Or, at least, a bastardized plagiarization at that. I did the research, I put in the time, and I went and asked questions and took criticisms for said questions. In comparison, the rest of you are just claim-jumpers.


 * What you fail to understand is that the format introduced earlier causes severe problems with paragraph alignments, an obvious oversight only individuals blinded by a lust for glory would miss; on personal computers that are not state-of-the-art, which just might include most of the online world, text lines from beneath paragraphs of exceptional length (such as Archer and Saber's introductory pages) extend undearneath the images I placed on the main page, which gives them the image of a character "d" turned ninety degrees clockwise. This is a major problem I spent the entire summer trying to work out,and the only solution I could find to it was to crop down the length of the main paragraphs (which cannot be done any further since they are as terse as possible), add in the centre (which actually cause line jump issues), or to just use the format employed earlier, where we have a name, the kanji and romanji, a colon, and then the paragraph start.


 * Who cares about good article status as long as the main page actually looks good? Honestly, reduce it back to a "B" rank for all I care; I'll even petition against the GA status since I've been really lazy about citing the sources on the character pages and main page, even though I actually have all the information saved in Notepad on my secondary harddrive. Terek 07:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The revisions you made which really stood out to me were that the infobox was again incomplete, and the references weren't formatted correctly. On top of that, there was a ton of gramatical mistakes and other things I had to fix when I performed the massive cleanup near the end of 2006, one of them being the large episode guide which I not only altered into the standard format last June or so but had to fill it in 6 months later because no one did it in the mean time (of which I was very surprised about considering the popularity of this series). You can keep how it was formatted with the characters section and get rid of the Media section for all I care, just don't revert it without realizing all the positive changes I and others have made to it within the past week.-- (  十八  |   talk  ) 08:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I apologise for that, for many of those revisions were accidental and I would have caught them on my periodic run-throughs of the article to adjust for changes made since my last revision, but I was boggled down by the edit conflicts, a poor internet connection and talk with the fellow from earlier. This problem primarily stemmed from an incoherence with the comparison revision draft feature; late last year, I notifed incongruencies with what I was looking on the main page and what was in a previous edit. Such may have been due to the stack not fully being registered by Wikipedia, but the same problem occured today and I took a pro-active countermeasure because I couldn't "preview" the comparisons to determine what had actually been altered to cause the bottom-sentence line text warping that I despise so adamantly. In the coming days (likely tomorrow morning or later in the week) I'll put up a proper format for the Main character/Supporting character/Minor character simmilar to what was put up originally, since it is doubtful that format contradicts with the GA status and it's much easier to navigate and looks less disgusting because of sentence warps.


 * Additionally, as mentioned earlier, I left a message for the gentleman earlier who upped the ranking to try and revoke it temporarily, since apparently the push to get the GA status inspired a horde of recent edits. The primary problem is that we are as of yet unsourced for "proper" material; Wikipedia mandates sources for information that would be deemed "uncommon" for people to know, and arguably the point of Wikipedia is to provide information because an individual does not know about a subject. This would entail citing everything, but typical editorial styles have shown trends of only highlighting character traits and the like.


 * As such, while I cannot access my Notepad from here, vigilant individuals with a touch of time on their hands (not me; school has resumed session where I live) should browse the "Fate" translation sections at and use citations in the manner as follows (insert <> for []): [ref]Nasu, Kinoko. (2004). Fate/stay night visual novel, Day XX[/ref]. The days available for browsing thus far are only one through eleven, not including the prologue. 71.9.137.37 10:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I still believe this is a good article, as much as I gave it credit for. The GA status is not for the whole topic; it's for this article only. You seem to have problems with the way the scenarios are written and sourced (forgive me if this is a misinterpretation). The scenario information isn't included in this article. It has been split into a separate article. When I looked through the article while contemplating GA, I found that everything that needed to be sourced was sourced, the prose was well written, and the entire thing was very polished. I just looked through it again and came to the same conclusion. Please understand that although you may have written a bunch of the article, it doesn't belong to you, and the changes that I've seen have pretty much been for the better. Voretus/talk 20:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Plot section
The Plot section needs to be more clearly defined. Isn't this just everything that's stated in the prologue? It's not really a "plot" per say. Also, it needs to be mentioned somewhere how the game has 40 different endings. Creating a gameplay section would be nice.--SeizureDog 22:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll do somethinig about it after I fiddle with the formatting; the article's been quite a mess since I last came about. And will SOMEONE please add abilities sections for all Servants not named Archer? I'll fill in the gaps but just get some stuff started already; doing the research for Lancer and Berserker's biographies is outrageously tedious. Terek 22:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looked a bit into it, but I would disagree; the "plot" of the story is simply a battle between seven Masters and Servants for the Holy Grail; Shirou's own sub-plot varies from story to story, but the overall format of the scenarios is the same; all Servants get killed, the Holy Grail gets destroyed. Terek 22:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Go Fetch

 * Dear folks, please go out and locate the katakana for the various names on this website so that we can "fill in the blanks" for the name-titles. As of right now, I've got my hands tied with other projects and I cannot do the work, but it shouldn't be that difficult (?) if you have the original game and can highlight the text from, although I am not sure if that is possible. Terek 22:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers in the overview text

 * There should not be spoilers on the main page, or at least the spoilers should be minimum. Granted, we already have some spoilers, namely, listing Shinji as Rider's Master and Gilgamesh's true name, but those are relatively minor in comparison to other stuff like mentioning Tohsaka as Gilgamesh's original Master or Assassin's status as Caster's Servant.


 * As such, for the "opening" text of all Servant pages, merely use the paragraph on the main page in place of any different versions that might be spoiler-ish, followed up with a spoiler tag and then the information/abilities/Noble Phantasm/biography section. Terek 22:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Fuyuki City is Kobe?
The Kobe article mentions that "Fate/stay night" takes place in Kobe though it is called Fuyuki City in the game/anime. However, this article doesn't mention such a thing, and I'm having a hard time finding citation for this claim. Is this true? If so, is there an English language site that mentions such? -- Exitmoose 03:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no citations for Fate/stay night taking place in Kobe because it takes place in Fuyuki City. Please see these Google results, too! Voretus 17:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it seemed unlikely. I would have removed it on the spot, but I'm not familiar with the anime. Thanks for your help! -- Exitmoose 00:00, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone might have noticed a simmilarity between landmarks in Kobe and those seen in Fuyuki City; I believe something simmilar applies to the Suzumiya Haruhi series. Unless there's a website detailling comparisons (unlikely), removing the line item in question is probably the best course of action. 71.9.137.37 02:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Edits unable to apply to the page
I recently made a change in Fate/ Stay Night page's music section, but I notice that I am not able to see the change applied to the page after I log out. I don't think my change has been reverted back because there is no sign of that in the history log (my change still show up on the top of the history log). During the time I log in I am able to see the change applied, but after I log out the change I made didn't applied to the page. Wondering if I have edited the wrong version of the page or something like that. Any help will be appreciated, thanks! Liuzh 23:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * more information regarding this error: I notice that this version of fate stay night page seems to display my change almost all the time, but the regular version of fate stay night page doesn't (you can tell they are two different pages by looking at their URL), but for some reasons they share the same history log that label my changes. I am so confused now and any help will be appreciated, thanks! Liuzh 00:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Might I ask why you changed it to a list? Regular prose looks and flows better. As for your question: clear your cache, that should help. Voretus 05:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I do notice that after I refresh the page, my changes shows up. But then what about other people who is viewing the page for the first time? They won't be able to notice the change if they have to refresh it in order to view it. I am just wondering if I can do anything to fix this cache problem so that people can guarantee to see the newest changes.
 * Answer to your question on why I make it into a list:
 * Many other anime articles in Wikipedia uses the same method to list the OP and ED.
 * People who are looking for a particular album information can find it more effectively, instead of having to read through the entire paragraph to search for a single album.
 * List is usually good for product listing, as well as character and episode listing.
 * Liuzh 00:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * To my understanding, since clearing the cache actually forces the page to rebuild from database (rather than using the in-between server's copy) one person clearing will fix the problem for everyone if it's a problem with the site itself. And if the problem is just with your computer, then it wasn't hitting anyone else anyway. --tjstrf talk 01:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler Tag?
Should there be a spoiler tag in this article? I wouldn't know myself since I haven't watched the anime or played the game yet, hence why I'm worried I'm about to spoil the entire story for myself by reading the article... I was just surprised when I didn't see one, since there's spoiler warnings in almost all articles like this.
 * Spoiler tags aren't mandatory. I personally think that articles look better without them. I suppose that's why there aren't any. Voretus 20:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We've kept all the juicy stuff off of the main-page; you would potentially be at more risk searching for Servant identities on Google. 71.9.137.37 04:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Important: Consensus Needed
I’ve -finally- decided to get to work on (a) terminology page(s) for TYPE-MOON-related concepts, elements, artefacts and all other sort of stuff that is far too extensive to stick anywhere else. However, before opening that can of radioactive flesh-eating worms, we seriously need to agree on what terminology to use for all the translated stuff once and for all.

My idea is to create several pages for Spell-related stuff, artefact/weapon-related, organizations/groups, Creature-related and a Concept page for everything else. Feel free to accuse me of ripping off Arai on that, I won’t fight it, but it really does seem like the most logical organization. This is all far in the future anyway, the only thing I’ll be doing anytime soon is the spell-related page, which coincidentally is the one that requires standardization the most. Of course, if there is any problem at all with that idea, feel free to say so.

Have in mind that there are no official translations for any of this stuff, so choosing the most suitable terminology is our responsibility. Whatever we choose is not meant to become standard in all of the TYPE-MOON fan community, and in reverse, what is common in the community does not necessarily HAVE to decide what we choose. Especially since there isn’t one clearly predominant usage, which is exactly the problem to begin with.

To keep things in only one place and not make everything cluttered, I fleshed out the whole issue in my discussion page. Once a decision is reached (and this is my wishful thinking begging for more than two people to actually pay attention to this), we could paste the whole thing into the newly created page for future reference.

Anyway, go here and tell me what you think. Ephyon 23:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing copyright infringement links
Okay then, I'll have to provide you the actual text from External links where it clearly states: ''Knowingly directing others to a site that violates copyright may be considered contributory infringement. If you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work.'' This article currently has a reference link to both Mirror-Moon and insani, and per this reason should be removed. If you want a reference, find somewhere that does not distribute these fan translations along with the information. Also, see the discussions at Wikipedia talk:External links and Wikipedia talk:Citing sources.--  十  八  22:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * insani's link is probably fine to keep around, since the trial is distributed freely online anyway. I suppose it doesn't really matter, though - people shouldn't be looking on WP for this kind of stuff anyhow.  Moogy   ( talk )  01:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally, I don't care about the legality of the links, but as far as references, I'm not sure if they would be considered reliable sources. -- Ned Scott 02:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:EL is not applicable to reference links. (No WP:RS problems exist here either, as the information being cited is about themselves.) More importantly though, since I realize that's really a WP:LAWYERish argument, they do not provide anything illegal to begin with. Mirror-Moon is one of the "BREAK THE SUPPORT DISK!"-type groups, and their translations are unusable without a copy of the game. --tjstrf talk 03:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, since they're reliable, being used as a reference, and seem to only be an a grey-area for copyright law, I've added the refs back in. -- Ned Scott 03:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * A WEB reference provides a link to another website. How is it any different than just listing the website? On top of that, should it really be notable that an unofficial group of fans translated the game? What I mean is, why should the section on translation be in the article in the first place? --  十  八  03:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is, because any form of translation for a visual novel at all is notable. --tjstrf talk 04:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I do not agree with you. Why should Wikipedia care if a group of fans translated a game they do not even hold the license to? See Wikipedia talk:Citing sources.--  十  八  04:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it's a significant, rare, and notable event in the history of the visual novel. --tjstrf talk 05:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it significant and notable? It just seems like you're stating your opinion.--  十  八  05:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I answered that question already, repeating my answer won't help. --tjstrf talk 05:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Especially as your answer is no way way accurate or in line with Wikipedia policy... so if you can't be bothered to come up with some other reason, you've admitted your reason is totally bogus. DreamGuy 06:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What? You want me to find a line of policy someplace stating the (utterly self-evident) fact that rare events surrounding a subject are worth mentioning in the articles about them? --tjstrf talk 06:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, sure, because it sounds like sheer nonsense to me, and if you want to claim that it's obvious than certainly someone must have said so in Wikipedia policies and guidelines somewhere. But, to the contrary, this sort of thing is labeled as WP:TRIVIA -- which is encouraged to be removed, not kept. Not to mention you haven't shown that this is particularly rare either. All you;'ve done is say straight out that you are right and your right because you say you are right, which is not how things work. Looks like your "self-evident" is nothing more than wishful thinking. Rareness is not notability, not in the slightest. DreamGuy 09:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want evidence that translation of visual novels is rare, I suppose you could consult the Visual novel article itself, which mentions the fact. Or you could check the list I found here, which lists there as being a "grand" total of 31 fansubbed visual novels. Your claim that it is trivia is nonsense, as it is not an "insignificant trifle of little importance", but rather an attributable fact which violates no content policy, and is significant to the article it is being placed on. This is true if for no other reason than that it is the only English release the game has received.
 * I'm not arguing Mirror Moon deserves an article here, I'm arguing that the existence of an English release for a visual novel is a noteworthy fact about that visual novel. --tjstrf talk 10:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Translations and other derivatives of copyrighted works distributed in any way without the permission of the copyright owner are illegal whether you need to own a copy of the game or not. Illegality trumps references, and the thing is trivial and nonencyclopedic anyway. DreamGuy 06:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well then, I guess it's a good thing we are not doing anything illegal. Covering the topic of something illegal is not illegal. If we say "blah blah did this" we are stating a fact, not breaking the law. Don't believe me? Then look at AACS encryption key controversy, which, in the freaking article itself, we provide the encryption key to disabling copyright software, which is very illegal to do.


 * Now, if you want to argue that the information is trivial, ok, but then remove the whole section about the fan translations. -- Ned Scott 09:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While *covering* something illegal isn't illegal, *linking* to it most certainly is, because we are contributing to the distribution of copyright violating material. The encryption key article should not be used to justify other actions, as the the Wikipedia Board was originally totally against including it but bowed to popular consent of very active and vocal editors as a political point even if under the risk of being sued. I'm sure the board doesn't want to take that same risk all over the place. It's an anomaly. Our policies are very clear on this. DreamGuy 09:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering it's not even completely clear if it's illegal (could easily be considered fair use, especially considering it requires the player to buy the game legally), no, our policies are not clear on this issue. -- Ned Scott 10:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Side note: Most of these people playing these games do not buy the game legally. So, pretty much, the game translation encourages the distribution of copyrighted material even more.--  十  八  11:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe you mean "derivative work". --tjstrf talk 10:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And derivative works are illegal without explicit permission of the owner. DreamGuy 11:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no way is it fair use. That's not just some term you can throw around to mean "I get to violate the law because I want to," there has to be a very clear rational defense, and there isn't one. And, yes, out policies are clear. Whether you choose to accept that or not isn't my concern. Take it up with the Wikimedia lawyers, they set the policy. DreamGuy 11:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright, do not put me in the same category as all the morons who actually do throw around the term "fair use" like that.


 * To quote the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107:
 * "Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—


 * 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
 * 2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
 * 3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
 * 4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


 * It is not unreasonable to think that such a use could be fair use. And of course, we are talking about fair use for the players and the said websites, which differs from our stricter restrictions in regards to content we host ourselves.


 * My point was that this was not a black and white issue, and policy does not "clearly" back you up in this case. It is questionable, and it is likely that many people are using these fan translations in a non-legal way, but that's dependent on how players end up using the content, not the content itself. And while there is a level of speculation in my thinking, the same can be said for you. Unless you'd like to actually back yourself up on what you say. -- Ned Scott 21:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Err, sorry about that, I just got a bit worked up with the accusation that I was "one of those people". I don't enough care about this situation, and I'm not going to try to start an argument for something I am suggesting in a theoretical sense. It's not a black and white situation, policy is not clear on this, but whatever, it's not worth a debate. -- Ned Scott 22:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who seriously suggests that a fan translation of this scope is non-notable trivia doesn't know what they're talking about. Mirror Moon are probably notable enough to deserve their own article (first fan group to translate a longform visual novel). -- grm_wnr Esc  01:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just so you know, Mirror Moon had an article a year ago but it was deleted; see Articles for deletion/Mirror Moon. The group is not notable enough for its own article, thus anything they produce is non-notable material.--  十  八  01:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They hadn't released their Tsukihime patch back then, you know. -- grm_wnr Esc  14:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't want to get into this discussion, but that is a flawed argument. A non-notable group could definitely produce notable material. What if a group like Mirror Moon came up with a medicine that cures cancer if taken daily for a week? Hypothetical, but the point is there. Voretus 14:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say that would make the group notable. Anyway, the reason why I'm not going out and restoring the article about them is that there's not much verifiable stuff to say (which is mostly due to the fact that no respectable sources even care about them). But notability? Come on. In fact, I'd say this article does not deserve its GA status as long as the game translation isn't mentioned. -- grm_wnr Esc  15:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Basically what I meant is that a group is notable if they produce notable material and non-notable if they produce non-notable material. Fan translations are not only non-nonable, they're technically illegal since they do not own the rights to make and distribute a translation of any of Type-Moon's games. And notability, I'll reassert, is not an opinion. You said yourself that "no respectable sorces even care about them", so what argument could you possibly assert to include their translation patch in this article?--  十  八  23:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We're not linking to them, so what are you even arguing about here? --tjstrf talk 23:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Fan translations are not notable?" How is that not an opinion? It must be, since I have a different one. What you mean is verifiability. And I can easily verify that said patch exists, since the file is readily available. So we can't directly link to it because it would be against a certain interpretation of policy, but that does not make it not exist. It is an important facet of the topic and must be covered if this article is to be called comprehensive. -- grm_wnr Esc  23:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, point made, but I'll just point one more thing out. If a section on the translation was added back in, wouldn't that then intice future editors to add in the link to Mirror Moon's translation site? So, to deter this from happening, the translation section was removed, and I believe it should stay that way.--  十  八  01:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I only removed it because there wasn't much to say about it. Once we have more information on it, then it will deserve its own paragraph/section. That something might "intice someone" to do something is not a reason against it. We're on a Wiki where we openly invite people to change our content (thus inticing vandalism). --tjstrf talk 01:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * We may be openly initicing vandalism since anyone can edit Wiki, but if we can devise a way to lessen vandalism, edit wars, and general disregard for policy, then shouldn't we? You say that there wasn't much to say about the translation, and I agree on that point; what more could be said for it to warrent inclusion?--  十  八  02:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
I've opened a discussion on Wikipedia talk:Copyrights. To put it briefly, my position is that we should refrain from linking to blatant copyright violations, but that pursuing the copyright status of questionable or marginal off-site links - which we aren't even responsible for the content of - is a waste of Wikipedians' time and effort that could better be spent elsewhere. We are not responsible for policing the entire Web, or even endorsing the content of every single external link in every article on Wikipedia. *** Crotalus *** 23:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * By putting links there we are endorsing them, and your attempts to rewrite the copyright policy to impose your contempt for the law have been reverted. Please do not try to recruit people from this talk page, especially when you know that they lack any real knowledge of copyright law and are only pissed off at their link to pirated material was taken down. This is a bad faith attempt to try to overturn policy by sheer mob tactics, and it won't work. DreamGuy 05:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * To the contrary, DreamGuy, we're not "pissed because 'our' link got taken down", nor was I pissed at all until right now when you started flinging about nonsensical accusations of bad faith. May I humbly suggest you tone down the self righteousness 5 or 6 notches and keep a civil tongue in your head? --tjstrf talk 05:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not nonsensical. Crotalus above tried to modify the Wikipedia:Copyright page to reflect his own views and suggest that everyone who disagreed with him is just wasting their time, and he is here clearly trying to encourage people to go over to the other page and support him even though he was reverted by countless numbers of people, with more waiting in the wings to revert should he or anyone try to put that nonsense back. If you do go over there to try to cause trouble, then that's a credit to you. The fact that he is trying to recruit people to defend his anti-policy actions doesn't mean any of you are stupid enough to fall for it, but I thought I should point out that his actions are going to get him in trouble, and so that anyone who might be foolish enough to try to go change the policy to encourage copyright violations can get a heads up that he's not getting anywhere with it. Might I suggest you not call things nonsensical unless you know what you are talking about. Oh, but then from the debate above I see that it never stopped you before. So, hey, if you do feel brash enough to go try to change policy, don't say I didn't warn you, as the people here might be open to copyright violations, but obviously on the copyright page itself people who care about it are there at all times.DreamGuy 11:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't intend to discuss this issue with you, DreamGuy, until and unless you are willing to comport yourself with the requirements of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:AGF. This is not the first time you have violated these policies, and I don't intend to get into an argument with someone whose discussion style consists of flinging around insults. *** Crotalus *** 20:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

More Pages

 * Terek here, sorry to be brief. I think we should include a section about the locations in Fuyuki City, as well as establish pages for stuff common to all Nasu themes (like, say, "prana") so we can avoid descriptions within the FSN article. I'll devote some time to Arthur/Heracles research in the future to improve the backgrounds of the articles. Cheers, good luck on finals and the lot. 169.237.235.71 21:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Additionally, expand on the "Reception" box by noting the following: the impact of FSN on the doujin world, such as the creaton of Fatal/Fake and Battle Moon Wars, the participation of some characters in SaiMoe 2006 and FrenchBread's Notorious Brand. Terek 08:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Status Charts
User:69.234.104.212 has rather hastily gone ahead and wiped out every Servant status chart in every article so far, I assume under the logic of… actually, I’m not too sure since he/she/it only linked to a pair of policy articles without discussing it. I assume this person believes this information is not relevant enough, or doesn’t mean anything, or something.

That’s not quite right. While http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#INFO does mention statistics as being not ideal, it clearly states that the articles should contain enough information to make sense of them, because let’s face it, there’s a whole lot of stuff that can’ be done any more efficiently than pasting a good data list like that. Simply saying Berserker is way strong and fast doesn’t quite drive the point home as well as showing a comparison of HOW stronger and faster he is than others.

There IS a problem though: While the status boxes ARE relevant, someone who doesn’t know anything beforehand won’t understand much. AGI isn’t raw speed, bur overall movement capacity, STR is power + weapon, etc

Why Am I bringing this up instead of fixing it myself? Because I haven’t got time to do it all right now and someone else might take it up. In short, we need a way to explain what each statistic… a good place to put it would be something like an overall description of what a Servant is, which I believe is largely overdue. --Ephyon 15:28, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I propose a section somewhere, likely a data page or something, that explains the significance of terms, concepets, and stats common to the TYPE-MOON universe so there won't be confusion when referring to the stats. It also makes for a convenient page to link to from the table since there's not enough info on certain skills like Archer's Eye of the Mind to warrant it a whole section, which is why I previously omitted putting them in there. One could describe Eye of the Mind in two words - battle experience. Everything else would be fluff and Wikipedia aims to minimize the fluff as much as possible. Sadly, I do not have much time to make edits either, but perhaps we can rally some interest in a data page when Kara no Kyoukai comes rolling around. Terek 07:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Romanji and Styling
This is aimed at anyone with some experience with the style guides regarding inclusion of Japanese text. Enenth added the Japanese forms for all the NPs in the Servant's pages, but I was wondering if it would be acceptable to change from this format:


 * Invisible Air (インビジブル・エア): Barrier of the Wind King (風王結界)

to this:


 * Invisible Air: Barrier of the Wind King (インビジブル・エア: 風王結界)

since I think the second looks a bit easier to read. I'm particularly ignorant on Wikipedia's policies regarding this type of formatting, and that ":" stuck between the two Japanese characters might not be acceptable for all I know. --Ephyon 16:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with the second way of stylizing the text since it organizes the English, kanji/kana, and romanji better.--  十  八  20:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree too. I actually thought about doing it myself, but decided not to (mostly to avoid possible confusion). Since in the game the english names (i.e. インビジブル・エア, INBIJIBURU EA) are written in furigana above the kanji (風王結界, Kaze-ō kekkai), I believe the correct format would be:


 * Barrier of the Wind King (Invisible Air) (風王結界 (インビジブル・エア))


 * However, the kanji names are never used in the anime (Saber screams "Excalibur!", not "Sword of the Promised Victory!"), so maybe this would be better:


 * Invisible Air (Barrier of the Wind King) (インビジブル・エア (風王結界))
 * Any thoughts? --Enenth 15:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Second option would be best. Any verbal reference to any of the NPs go by what's written in furigana, such as both the anime and Realta Nua’s voiced scenes, and even more significantly, those are the real names of the mythological artifacts (Those that aren't made up by Nasu at least), so it makes a whole lot more sense to set the hierarchy between the names as Name (Furigana) - Subtitle (Kanji).

Though I’d like to get rid of the parenthesis somehow. They are just ugly. --Ephyon 23:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

What about this: Invisible Air: Barrier of the Wind King (インビジブル・エア: 風王結界,) --88wolfmaster 23:27, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

FLC
I've cleaned up List of Fate/stay night episodes and nominated it at WP:FLC here. Feel free to express your opinions. Thanks. Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 06:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Problems with this article
It's not as bad as the character articles, but the plot summary is somewhat over-detailed and has a real in-universe problem.

Also, in my mind, the character sections are largely unneeded - they could be direct links, with possibly a sentence-long description, since they are the same text as the character pages. However, it is important that they mention who the Servant is - Wikipedia isn't supposed to be about preserving spoilers or keeping secrets.

There's a lot of problems with the character articles themselves, but I've left a note about that on the WP:Video Game discussion page, since that was the most applicable project.KrytenKoro 15:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Manga
We are going to have to update the manga list considering that its past December and we dont know if more volumes are out, and if possible does anyone know where you can read them considering most of the common manga reading sites like onemanga and mangafox dont update Fate anymore Estarrol (talk) 23:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Terminology
Seems like this gets Sorcery and Magic, Sorcerer and Magus mixed up a good bit (TYPE-MOON terminology). Too lazy to fix, someone else do it. Also, shouldn't we use the terminology from the mirror-moon translation, since this is the English page, and that is how most people will have read it (Hero of Justice would be Superhero, etc)

70.58.58.223 (talk) 01:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)Pie

Arthurian?
I think this game definitely belongs in the category Category:Arthurian games. It is certainly Arthurian in the sense that it involves elements of the Arthurian legend; they are featured in a major way as far as I can tell. The Holy Grail, an intrinsically Arthurian element, seems to be a major plot point (and it did not exist Arthur, though that is a fairly common mistake to make!) Additionally, the character Sabre is a version of King Arthur, and other Arthurianisms appear as well (Mordred, Avalon, Morgan, etc). I don't know much else about this game, but rarely does a week go by that a fan doesn't try to add a mention of it to some Arthurian article or other. The category does not imply the game revolves around Arthur, or else any number of indisputably Arthurian works would be excluded from all such categories, but it certainly involves the legend prominently, and therefore belongs in the category.--Cúchullain t/ c 02:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Grail may be tied into Arthurian mythology, but even it's own article states that it began either in Celtic mythology, 12th Century Christian churches, or to promote Communion. Saying that it's a mistake to say it existed before Arthurian legends seems a bit far-fetched. Still, the game only uses pieces from various other sources, and I can't help but notice you're not asking for a Greek Mythology category, or a Christian Religion category. The categories the game has promote the major themes, of which Arthurian works are only a subset. One may as well add things like Time Travel due to Archer. Nezu Chiza (talk) 04:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Grail did not exist before the Arthurian legend, it originated in a 12th century Arthurian romance, and was developed in later Arthurian works, though it potentially evolved from earlier concepts (Celtic or not). Our article on it may need some work if it doesn't convey that. At any rate I didn't mean to pass judgement on that point. My point is, that as the Grail is intrinsically an element of the Arthurian legend, and as it seems to be a major plot point in this game, that qualifies the game as "Arthurian"; there are a number of other Arthurian elements as well. Categories do not promote only the major themes, they are intended to help readers find related information, and I'd argue the game clearly relates to the Arthurian legend in a major way. I would imagine it could also be placed in a category for Category:Games with featuring elements of Greek mythology if one existed, though I know less about that.--Cúchullain t/ c 06:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the old "FATE"

 * I recently get hold of an official release of "Character Material" in Chinese, and found some information regarding the production of Fate and how it's link to the Type-Moon's production history etc. Fans who really dig into those information probably know about what I mean by old "Fate" here. (The one with Saber being male and Shiro being female etc.)
 * My question here is, are those info allow on this page? It don't really fit in any other pages link to Fate/stay night, and I can see that those info is in both the Chinese and Japanese wiki page due to having official information backing. I know that some film articles on wiki including production history and stuff, so I think it's allow here too.

Also, as many characters loss their articles, are there any attempt to bring those information back into the character list? I mean, that's a lot of information regarding legend and history that is quite important. Japanese wiki just clump them all into one big pages, should it be done here too? Or otherwise? Hope people care to reply and teach me about how those guide line here work..... Marlon unknown (talk) 01:53, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

English Translation

 * I think at this point it should be at least mentioned. With bascially every other translated visual novel the translation is linked in the article(examples, Saya no Uta and Wanko to Kurasou), even with ones that aren't nearly as strict with player owning the original game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.121.189 (talk) 10:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Fate/Zero's Release Date
As mentioned in Talk:Fate/zero, the official website has the date of release as December 29, 2006. A claim that it was released in Comiket prior to official release date is also dubious, since Comiket 2006 started on December 29, 2006. If anyone can prove the December 12, 2006 release date, then cite the source and edit the light novel section accordingly. (and maybe edit Fate/zero as well) Aqua3993 (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Fate/Prototype
Should i make as separate article for Fate/Prototype ova? The reason i want to do this is because the cast and VAs of Fate/Prototype are different from Fate/stay night. Your thoughts?--FonFon Alseif (talk) 04:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think Fate/Prototype should get its own article. It may potentially pass WP:NOTE, but since Prototype is only around 15 minutes long and pretty much share the same development history as Fate/stay night, at least initially, it probably doesn't diverge from Fate/stay night enough to warrant one. The differences can probably be noted in a single paragraph under the anime section. --  クラ  ウド  ６６８  05:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay then. What about the cast of Fate/Prototype? Their characters are very different from their Fate/stay night counterparts including their voice actors. So where should i put them?--FonFon Alseif (talk) 11:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Can't you create a section in List of Fate/stay night characters?--  十  八  20:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with the previous editor, and make sure whoever does it creates an entirely separate section called 'Fate/Prototype characters' or something. Don't mix them up since they share the same names and there is cause for confusion. Overmage (talk) 05:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Name
Does anyone else think that the name of this article should simply be changed to something along the lines of "Fate (franchise), since it incudes not only Fate/Stay Night, but Fate/Zero, Fate/Grand Order, Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya, Fate/Prototype, Fate/Extra, Fate/Extra CCC, Fate/Extella, Fate/Grand Order - First Order, Fate/Extra: Last Encore, as well as probably several others. DJK (talk) 22:30, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

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