Talk:Father Damien

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Beatification
Beatification took place in Brussels, most exactly at the esplanade of the National Basilica of Koekelberg, which in fact is dedicated to the Sacred Heart. Please correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.55.86.201 (talk) 15:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I have already corrected it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.55.86.201 (talk) 12:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Hawai'i
Why is Hawaii spelled Hawaiʻi in this article when the Wikipedia article it points to spells it Hawaii?--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:10, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The title of the article Kingdom of Hawaii does not currently have the okina due to common usage outside of Hawai, but the text inside that article does use the okina. The placement of okinas into all articles containing Hawaiian words is an ongoing process on Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 04:22, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

thanks. I'm not American so I don't know - which is standard English in the US? I notice that the official website of the State has both forms.--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Either way is standard usage and acceptable in the U.S. Using the diacritical is more "official", but harder to incorporate simply because most people spell the name of the state and the various islands and many other Hawaiian words without the diacritical. Also, most fonts do not include an okina, so apostrophes are used instead. It's fine to spell the state and island names without the diacritical, so I wouldn't worry about it. It's simply a matter of authenticity to the language and culture of Hawaii that inspires editors on Wikipedia who have knowledge about Hawaii to add the okinas when and where they can. Even that isn't easy, because a special character has to be inserted, like this to create this:  . (It's like an upside-down apostrophe.) Anyway, I hope that was helpful. You're fine not using the okinas/apostrophes; most Americans outside of Hawaii don't and that's why the article titles (often) don't. Softlavender (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

ʻOkina
Why are you removing the ʻOkinas on Father Damien's page? You understand that wikipedia allows them to use for any articles related to Hawaii and even other Polynesian languages as long as they aren't in the article title itself?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just replace them. Softlavender (talk)
 * This is an English language artical. The Hawaiian spelling is properly noted in the first paragraph. Folowing that, it should folow English language guidlines. Warped War (talk) 16:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Warped, you need to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies before making random and unrequested style changes to any article. All articles concerning Hawai'i, and this is one, are using the correct orthography -- that is, the okina. If this is unfamiliar to you, that's understandable, but please don't make unilateral decisions about Wikipedia style without asking for information first. Softlavender (talk)

See Also list seems overlong
The current See Also list seems overlong to me, and the length seems to detract from its purpose and add confusion rather than to add helpfulness. Some of the links have little or no bearing or relationship to Damien; one link is already in the article (and should thus be removed from See Also per WP standards); and one link is a subset of another link.

I personally think the See Also list should be cut in half. Alternatively, the list should be cut to the minimal salient direct relationships to Damien, and any added links should need to explain why they are being added and how they relate. Softlavender (talk) 01:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. Lunalilo, Peter Kaeo, and Charles Reed Bishop have no place here and Charles Warren Stoddard, Herman Koeckemann, Jonatana Napela, Walter M. Gibson, and St. Thomas the Apostle Hollywood should be incorporated into the text.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikimyths
Thanks, Bigturtle, for removing the Wiki-myth that Damien's symbols are a tree and a dove. That complete fabrication was inserted by a trolling IP account in September 2006 and has since been picked up by the internet and even included in a recent book. Softlavender (talk) 06:01, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Name of article
Wouldn't it be more in keeping with the standard formatting on wikipedia for the name of this article to be Damian of Molokai? No other entry about significant members of the clergy use their clerical honorific (List of Catholic priests seems to bear that out) and "Person of Place" seems normal for pages about saints.--98.216.52.105 (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks like the Roman Catholic Church officially refers to him as St. Damian Joseph de Veuster Of Molika'i. I would suggest that as the article title with a redirect from "Father Damian". Wkharrisjr (talk) 18:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes. Padre Pio is now Pio of Pietrelcina.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  02:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)"
 * No, Father Damien is the most common name.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * So is Padre Pio. But then, Mary MacKillop is still there.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  18:56, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Recent changes
While I applaud the editor's enthusiasm who made massive changes to the article, there were too many problems in the edits to pick through and correct them all, and also the article structure was better as it was beforehand. Therefore I've taken the liberty of reverting the changes. To the new editor to this article: What you are calling passive voice in many cases was not, and in most all of the cases was better as written, for logical flow and correct emphasis. Also, if you are going to make huge bold changes to an existing and stable lengthy article, you might want to get consensus on the Talk page first, or at least explain your intentions. In any case, as with all massive bold changes to an existing stable, lengthy, and formerly FA article, be prepared for them not to stick. Hope that makes sense! Thanks, Softlavender (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I am the not-new editor whose changes were reverted, and frankly I think this explanation disingenuous. I started by correcting the lede's incorrect attribution of Catholic patron saint practices to Anglicanism, but came back several times yesterday while supervising problem updates on another computer, because this article's problems seemed pretty severe. While I respect that Softlavender's talk page touts her professional editing experience, the article has major problems, which is why it is listed as C Class. Frankly, I was a little surprised at the former Good Article status, but note that was a decade ago. For example, an introduction which describes Catholic sainthood standards seems to violate wikipedia guidelines, and does not create logical flow. IMHO, correct emphasis is not promoting Catholic bureaucratic imprimaturs, but explaining the person's life. FYI, I also tried to address this article's wandering style by organizing the various tributes to Father Damien, and wasn't about to touch the succession of long quotes in the controversies section. For what it's worth, I haven't taken the time to change my talk page to show the articles whose class status I have improved, but there have been several, including among saints as I come across them on their feast days. Thus, I did these changes after cleaning up the article for Marianne Cope, and I don't have time to redo them, just as I don't have time to correct another problem article, that this one seems to be descending toward, that of St. Thomas More. I am writing here rather than her talk page to express my disappointment with Softlavender's approach of reverting all my changes, a practice which I think inconsistent with numerous wikipedia guidelines, although filing a formal complaint isn't my style.Jweaver28 (talk) 12:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

de or De (Veuster)?
We have both versions even in the first para of the lede. Can both be correct, and even if so, is it appropriate to be using them interchangeably? I think the answer to both these questions is: No. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  22:56, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * From what I'm seeing in pre-Wikipedia reliable sources, the capital D for his birth name appears correct. The religious name is another matter, because it was taken in adulthood upon entering holy orders. But the Vatican has it like so: . Softlavender (talk) 23:39, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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Problem with the Criticism section
Reading the article on William Keolaloa Sumner, the colony's superintendent to replace Father Damien, there are accusations against Father Damien for acting with prejudice against native and Protestant colony members. None of this is mentioned here, and I would said that the criticism section here is not written to fairly weigh the criticism against Father Damien and provide rebuttal, but rather to discredit Father Damien's detractors on the basis of his being Roman Catholic their being Protestant. I will research further on this topic and do some editing. In the mean time, I would welcome feedback. Jyg (talk) 06:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Here are the two citations listed for that claim in that wiki article regarding the information about Damien's temporary resident superintendent position:


 * Daws: information goes from pp. 89–93
 * Moblo: https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/PacificStudies/article/download/10161/9809


 * Damien was a priest, not a politician/superintendent. I don't know that a three-month temporary position as a superintendent has any particular bearing on his 25-year life and service as a priest. Softlavender (talk) 09:39, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * :*Another source by Moblo: http://www.jstor.org/stable/482885?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

--KAVEBEAR (talk) 12:09, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for more info, Kavebear. My question was more to Father Damien's character as a leader in the colony, whether as priest or superintendent. My issue with this article is that, while well documented, it rebuts criticism without saying what the criticism is in the first place. The section states "Much criticism came out of ...", but only goes on to give, literally, a few words: "a coarse, dirty man", "carelessness". And, this is quite different from the criticism raised in the Sumner article, "Damien proved unpopular with the native Hawaiian residents and because of his religious discrimination and harsh treatment of a Protestant minister J. K. Kahuila". I realize this feeds back into the Protest/Catholic tension, but it is still more expansive and if in this article would help to explain why there's this expansive, and I might add NPOV anti-Protestant, rebuttal.


 * Having now read all portions of the Moblo paper, it more than implies that Damien was unwilling to comply with local, established tradition (whether those of Hawai'ian culture or of the colony in its larger political context) much to the chagrin of its residents. I get the feeling that Father Damien was a complicated man: very compassionate and self-giving on one hand, but also so sure enough of himself that he could justify blatantly ignoring protocol that wasn't to his liking. This would very much justify the criticism as described in the Sumner article and I think it would be appropriate to have it here, especially given the existing, but oddly stand-alone, rebuttals.

-- Jyg (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Agree with Jyg's suggestion as to approach to incorporate more material about criticism of Damien. I have already reduced the lengthy quotes by Stevenson, as these seem out of proportion in the total balance of the article. Also deleted one of the Catholic Encyclopedia's encomiums. We can stand to add some more nuanced material about Damien's complexity, without taking away from his achievements.Parkwells (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

New edits are changing the meaning of some existing text
Some of the new edits being done at the moment are changing the meaning of existing text. Copyediting is fine as long as the meaning isn't changed; adding new material is fine as long as it is accurately cited; changing text to conform to RS and NPOV is fine as long as we follow all RSs. Please do not not however change the meaning of existing passages without cause. I see several passages where I am going to need to restore wording that was apparently shortened for conciseness or perhaps for NPOV but which actually changed the meaning of the passage without cause. (I don't have time to do this right at the moment; I just wanted to alert the editor[s] in question to be careful to avoid this going forward. Thanks.) Softlavender (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Third rate article
1.) De Veuster does not appear to be "...the tenth person in what is now the United States to be recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church." -at least going by the so-called source cited. 2.) The List of American saints and beatified people does not belong as some sort of citation in the lede; "That isn’t using wiki as a reliable source, it is using it as a convenience cite for actual sources, at least for anyone capable of opening a link." -the "convenient cite" is already listed under See also. 3.) All in all, rather poorly written, containing an excess of superfluous verbiage, most of which borders on fandom, and periodic instances of redundancy, at the very least. Manannan67 (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Much of the “superfluous verbiage” appears to be of actual use. For instance, it is a relevant point that Fr. Damien ate with his parishioners in the local fashion, which was believed at the time to be rather risky. That he discovered he was leprous quite by accident is a commonly noted point in most biographies. The prominence of Sacred Hearts (plural) in Hawaii is worth mentioning, as is the fact that, under the local version of gavelkind in his neck of Flanders, he was the primary heir to his parent’s estate. The continued remoteness of the leprosarium is remote. The origins of the many new diseases seems relevant. Now, I’d agree that some of the language is a bit too hagiographic, but it isn’t necessary to throw out relevant facts to tone that down. Qwirkle (talk) 23:30, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * "The Catholic Encyclopedia calls him "the Apostle of the Lepers." Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't call anyone anything. The author of the relevant article is Libert H. Boeynaems, sufficiently notable to have his own article. Poi is generally eaten with the fingers, and anyone who doesn't know that doesn't know what poi is, which is why there is a link. How he learned he had the disease is already described in sufficient detail in the text under "Illness and Death". There is no problem in discussing the Piscus Fathers in Hawaii, but then it should be developed adequately, not off-the-cuff. If he is primary heir because his elder brother entered religious life, then the point becomes moot when he does the same. It's Boeynaems who says his father sent him to train for a commercial profession. The continued remoteness is hardly relevant to this article once Damien is no longer there; and is discussed on the Kalaupapa page. What is the direct relation of all those listed disease to leprosy? Manannan67 (talk) 00:01, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I think it might be better to have some more eyes on this. Qwirkle (talk) 00:12, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Ultimogeniture
If he is primary heir because his elder brother entered religious life, then the point becomes moot when he does the same.


 * Umm, no. The youngest often inherited the bulk of the estate in rural societies. Qwirkle (talk) 15:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Would still need a citation to show that it applied in his family. Manannan67 (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, I believe we had one, although I agree it might not have been the highest calibre. Qwirkle (talk) 20:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Damien or Damian?
I see both uses in the article. Is this a point of contention or discussion? Personally, I'm inclined towards Damian, since Dutch uses "Damiaan". 84.199.96.25 (talk) 10:20, 16 October 2023 (UTC)


 * St Damien spelled his own name "Damien" in English.
 * Father Damien's signature 1880.svg
 * All English-language mentions of St Damien in the article already reflect this spelling, so I'll go ahead and remove the copy edit request at the top of the page. Bartholomite (talk) 04:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)