Talk:Feast of the Immaculate Conception

Untitled
In the Wikipedia Article entitled “Feast of the Immaculate Conception”, there is a phrase which states: “A feast called the Conception of Mary arose in the Eastern (Catholic) Church in the seventh century.”

It should be pointed out first of all, that there was no such thing as the Eastern Catholic Church in the seventh century. There was one holy, catholic, apostolic church, and parts of it were in the East and part of it was in the West.

Secondly, it should be pointed out that this feast in the East has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic dogma or feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin – a concept applied to it much later, and only in the Roman Church. It is true that we speak of the Holy Virgin Mother of God as sinless, spotless, most pure, and ever-virgin. Some unfortunately use the Western term ‘immaculate’. This confuses the faithful into mistakenly thinking that the “Immaculate Conception” of the Virgin is a teaching of the Orthodox Church. It also confuses those in the Roman Church who are looking for historical validation of a theological point of view which doesn’t exist.

The Wikipedia article about John Duns Scotus which links to this page with the word ‘feast’ asserts that the feast of the Immaculate Conception existed in the East since the seventh century. This is not accurate. The feast which exists in the East is the Feast of the Conception of the Virgin, and it has more to do with the removal of Saint Anna’s shame at being childless than it has to do with any statement that the Virgin was born without sin.

The icons of the feast include many which show Saints Joachim and Anna in an embrace.

Thirdly, this feast is not a major feast of the Eastern Church.

Finally, it should be remembered that in the Eastern Church, the term ‘doctrine’ or ‘dogma’ is applied only to theology pertaining to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It applies to theology about Our Lord’s birth, of course, but does not apply to the life of His Most Holy Mother in any other way.

The Sessional Hymn from Matins of the Feast: In days of old, the choir of the Prophets Proclaimed the pure and immaculate divine maiden and Virgin, Whom Anna conceives, though she is barren and childless! We bless her today with gladness of heart! For we have been saved for the sake of the one// Who alone is pure and spotless!

John Udics 07:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Citations and such
This article needs some citations, particularly for the lengthy quote, and regarding the generalizations about certain theologians and philosophers. I will try and get to those, but I am unsure of where to find information on negative statements (i.e. "Bernard and Thomas Aquinas could not see theological justification for this teaching"...incidentally, which Bernard is being talked about here?) although the Catholic Encyclopedia might have some answers.

Also, the comments about the Eastern Church would well be incorporated, so I hope the contributor...contributes to the actual article at some point. It would be nice not to get "sectarian" about it, but there are some important and valid points to be made.

And I removed the comment about the doctrine taking "a long time" to develop, as this is a very relative statement. What is a "long time" in the context of doctrinal development? Zerobot 07:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Irish holiday
Trying to find the exact detail, but only Irish catholic-run schools close on Dec 8th every year (this means lots of parents take the day off to shop etc) but I don't think it's a civil service holiday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.61.222 (talk) 10:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Solemnity, not Feast
Since the calendar reform of the Second Vatican Council, this celebration has had the rank of a solemnity, not of a feast. I think that all references to it should be changed.76.123.203.164 (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As the page was never moved, I've returned the bold in the lead to "feast", in place of "solemnity". This keeps the bold in line with the title, and reflects the decision made over on the talk page of Immaculate Conception. Since the 1962 calendar and use were never abrogated, the Immaculate Conception is celebrated in the RCC as both a solemnity (OF) and a feast (EF). Also, since Anglicans celebrate as well, it would be furthermore inappropriate to focus exclusively on what it is called in the OF of the RCC. Better to stick to the more generic "feast". Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Anglicanism
I`ve linked to a pro Immaculate article. Would a low Anglican care to put the opposing case?andycjp (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly a low Anglican, but I disagree with the sentence "In the Anglican Communion, the 'Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary' may be observed as a Lesser Festival on December 8." Different churches (provinces) of the Anglican Communion have different rules about festivals and the like. What "may be observed as a Lesser Festival" in the Church of England or the Anglican Church of Canada, for instance, might not be observed at all in the Episcopal Church (USA) or the Anglican Church of Australia, or might be an obligatory major feast in the Church of Ireland or the Anglican Church of South Africa, and so on. All that quite apart from the fact that even within a single province, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception may well be solemnly observed by Anglo-Catholics and utterly ignored by Anglo-Evangelicals (if that's a word). Pais (talk) 12:12, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The Feast of the Immaculate Conception is usually a main feast in Anglo-Catholic parishes. Many moderates celebrate it too as her conception (not always considered "Immaculate".. most Low Church Anglicans do not celebrate the solemnity. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Just want to note that the LCMS reference is long gone and could not be found.
I don't want to touch this article because the Immaculate Conception articles seemed to be highly protected by the Wikipedia editors.

But I want to point out that the last reference, LCMS regarding the Lutheran views on the Immaculate Conception of Mary has long been gone.

Hopefully someone can note this and remove the link by replacing it with a reliable source that is *active*.

More importantly, I strongly dissagree that the Lutherans accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. My aunt is Lutheran and their church truly prohibits such views, which saddens me because I am a devout Roman Catholic. I was quoted by my relatives that the Immaculate Conception was no longer taught by Martin Luther from the beginning of his protestant ministry.

WHICH goes to the point that the Lutheran claim that the Immaculate Conception is tolerable in their churches is a bithilarious. God bless. LoveforMary (talk) 23:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)LoveforMary
 * Yes check.svg Done - I have repaired the link by using the Internet Wayback Machine (www.archive.org). The reference you provided was a self-published source and not reliable, particularly in light of the fact that it contradicted what LCMS's own official pages say. Actually, it didn't quite contradict them as much as manifest that there is one individual Lutheran church which does not observe the Immaculate Conception, as was already mentioned in the paragraph - it is optional for each congregation or pastor to decide. Elizium23 (talk) 00:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

can someone comment on what's done when Dec. 8 is a Sunday?
Dec. 8 is a Sunday this year; last previous case of this was in 2002. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The law is complicated and varies regionally. The USCCB has transferred the feast to Monday and abrogated the obligation to attend Mass. Discussion of the calendar rubrics would be out of place here. Perhaps on General Roman Calendar it would be appropriate. The sources are already in the article, it would just take some reading and paraphrasing. Elizium23 (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

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"Formal definition of a dogma"
"marked the first instance of formal definition of a dogma."

How can this be true? Every ecumenical council (let's leave VII out of the discussion) formally defines dogma. 2600:1015:B062:47B:0:3C:EC6B:AD01 (talk) 12:48, 9 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree, and the unsourced poorly-written passage is hereby removed (one day late.) Elizium23 (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)