Talk:Felice Beato

Peabody Essex Museum Edit-a-thon Spring 2014
(1 image added)

Origins & identity
I came across two problems while writing this article. First, Beato is constantly listed as a British photographer...but he was born in Italy. I could not find any information about his early life, so I figure he probably moved to England early in his life. Secondly, no birth years or death years match up. I've seen 1830, 1825, and 1820 for birth years and 1906, 1907, and 1908 for death years. I have no clue which years are correct and so no dates were included in the article. &mdash; A u r o r a  ( Say hi! )   05:28, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll be adding many more details of Beato's life as well as links to possible articles on his brother, Antonio, and others. The existing "James Robertson" link needs to be corrected (not the right James Robertson).Pinkville 19:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It has been pretty well established that Beato and his brother Antonio were born on the Island of Corfu near Greece, which was then part of the British Empire to a British father (hence British citizenship) and an Italian mother. The family then moved and lived on the island of Malta.  The brothers were later hired and taught photography by James Robertson, who married their sister.  I have lots more details on his life but don't know how this system of editing articles exactly works, so I am posting this here.  By the way, I don't think anyone knows the exact date of his death, but the most likely one is 1908.  He died apparently in Burma.  Photoarts 00:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The article describes Felice's origins in Corfu and consequent British citizenship, and the marriage of Robertson to Felice and Antonio's sister, but some of the bits of information you mention I have not come across in any research (I wrote and researched the vast majority of this article). Can you provide references for the following: Antonio being born in Corfu (and maybe a date), British father and Italian mother, family move to Malta, and exactly why you suspect he died in 1908? Of these items, the only one I have seen before is the possible death date of 1908, so I'm very intrigued by your post and your promise of "lots more details". Please post any references or other replies here, but if you'd like to discuss related issues more generally, you can post a message on my talk page. I look forward to futher discussion! Thanks. Pinkville 02:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, Pinkville, but you must have done the revise/update to the page after I reviewed it. None of this data was on the page at the point that I reviewed it (in fact it was full of errors and pretty skimpy).  You've done an admirable job pulling together this detailed data on Beato, and the article reads very well.  I will try to get the research that you requested pulled together on some of your questions and either repost here or on your talk page.  I'm just not sure when.  Probably after my next nervous breakdown. By the way, his photos of the Sudan certainly have survived.  I have even owned one myself.Photoarts 02:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No worries, and thanks. I think what probably happened is that you came across the article during one of its vandalism phases, because most of the information I mentioned has been present in it since last November (since then there have been several updates to the article, which is otherwise generally the same). I do indeed hope to see your research sometime soon - and hopefully without any accompanying nervous breakdown! Ciao! Pinkville 02:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The 1825 date
An explanation is given of 1834 as a possible year of birth, but nothing is said about the candidature of 1825. Could something be added please? Honbicot 08:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * As much as it's possible (the sources give no details) I've explained the 1825 date. Pinkville 17:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

the Qingyi yuan and the Yuanmingyuan
About Beato's photos from China: at first I assumed that the photos were incorrectly identified. The famous destruction of 1860 was of the Yuanmingyuan and not the Qingyi Yuan (the 'old' summer palace, rather than the 'new'). However, the buildings in the photos look far too imposing and tall. That wouldn't fit with the Yuanmingyuan which seems to have been vast but also quite intimate in character. However, the text is still ambiguous since it seems to refer to the far more famous destruction of the far more important summer palace, the Yuanmingyuan. This compound of imperial palaces was looted by French troops on October 8 and 9, 1860, and burnt by the British, under Lord Elgin, on October 18 an 19.

I'm writing a book about this topic, but I've just started and I have a lot to learn. Check out the book's blog at: http://ringmar.net/europeanfury/

cheers


 * Beato photographed Yuanming Yuan - but only after the burning and only producing a few images at most. The photo of the "Belvedere of the God of Literature" and many others were most definitely taken at Qingyi Yuan, where he photographed before and after the burning. The Belvedere, pictured here, was rebuilt (one storey shorter) by order of Cixi in the 1880s and is still a feature of the rebuilt and restored Yihe Yuan to this day. Both complexes, Yuanming Yuan and Qingyi Yuan were devastated by the looting and burning which were carried out simultaneously in the two places (with, as you say, the looting beginning on the 8 and 9 October and the burning on the 18-19 October). Having studied literally hundreds of photographs by Beato and John Thomson (who visited the site in 1872) I can affirm that the destruction of Qingyi Yuan was as complete as that of Yuanming Yuan, which you correctly note was originally the more important (though not "far more" so) of the two complexes but which was not rebuilt. The confusion of the names of the two complexes (both being called "Summer Palace", both often being called "Yuanming Yuan") has not helped for an accurate understanding of what took place at each location, often encouraging people to think that only Yuanming Yuan/the Old Summer Palace was destroyed (e.g. see this remarkable blundering review of Harris's exhibition/book, referring to the Old Summer Palace when Harris (and Beato) explicitly deal with the New Summer Palace!). It's worth noting that one of the reasons Yuanming Yuan was often highlighted by foreign visitors (before and after the destruction) was because of the many European-influenced structures there, built under the guidance of Jesuit architects.


 * The text isn't ambiguous - I don't make any reference at all to Yuanming Yuan. You are simply incorrect in stating that Qingyi Yuan was not also destroyed on 18-19 October 1860.


 * Feel free to make the distinction between the French actions at Qingyi Yuan and those of the British at the same place - but don't forget to provide a reference or cite one from those listed at the end of the article.


 * I'm familiar with Hevia's excellent work. You might want to check out David Harris's "Of Battle and Beauty : Felice Beato's Photographs of China" which is extremely well-researched and which provides the complete photographic record produced by Beato of the Anglo-French military expedition of the Second Opium War.


 * I've checked out your site and it looks like you're well on your way. I look forward to seeing your book! Pinkville 15:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, I'm enjoying this. I'm learning, which is what it's all about. But surely the Yuanmingyuan was far more important than the Qingyiyuan, that's where the emperor lived after all -- rather than in the Forbidden City -- and that's where he collected all the amazing treasures. The Yuanmingyuan was only partially European-built, the far larger part was traditional Chinese garden with temples and pavillions and rockeries. I wonder whether the Qingyiyuan could have been considered as included in the Yuanmingyuan complex, and that this is the reason why it's destruction often is not listed as a separate incident. It took the British two days and 3000 men to burn the whole thing down after all and they covered a very wide area. Btw, I've posted some of my own photos from Qingyiyuan on my own site. Including special Chinese princesses.

all the best,

Erik


 * As David Harris puts it: "the British force... systematically burnt not only the Yuanmingyuan but a much wider area - approximately 64 square miles - that included Wanshoushan" (i.e. Qingyi Yuan). The two complexes were destroyed in the same operation.


 * Susan Naquin notes: "In the latter half of the nineteenth century, Westerners used "Yuanmingyuan" in a confused fashion to refer to all of the suburban villas" (i.e. Yuanming Yuan, Qingyi Yuan, Nan Yuan, Jingyi Yuan, etc.). (Beato, himself, titled his Qingyi Yuan photos "Yuen Ming Yuen"). Distinctions in name between the different complexes may not have been known - or were not considered important - to the Western commentators, but obviously were well known to the Chinese.


 * I imagine you know that the Xianfeng Emperor had, on 22 September, already fled Yuanming Yuan for the safety of his summer residence at Rehe. Qingyi Yuan seems to have been of particular importance to Empress Dowager Cixi, who, afterall, rebuilt it at vast expense (apparently "squandering" the budget earmarked for the navy). Once rebuilt, and renamed Yihe Yuan, the complex was again severly damaged during the Boxer Rebellion, when troops of the Eight Allied Armies ransacked the reconstructed buildings, pillaging and vandalising - even breaking off the many relief-sculpture images of Buddha carved into the walls of the Temple of the Sea of Wisdom (Zhihui Hai) at the top of Wanshoushan overlooking the rest of Yihe Yuan. Pinkville 20:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks a lot for this. I've learnt stuff. Btw, I was reading Robert Swinhoe's account of the destruction today. It's probably the best in that he spoke Chinese and was very careful in his descriptions. I've ordered the Harris book on Beato. His photos are certainly first-class.

greetings from London, Erik

How I can add a new page??
can anybody tell me?? How I can add a new page?? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fadia ismael (talk • contribs) 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

An external link to a gallery
Hello, here is an external link to an interesting and rare gallery that i added but was deleted by a meta user.

Erve 17:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * F Beato: 150 photos from "Metadata Database of Japanese Old Photographs in Bakumatsu-Meiji Periods" (english version) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.90.44.39 (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Actually, I deleted that link since it is already listed in the references ("Nagasaki University Library"). Thanks though. Pinkville 17:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Can we get temporary protection to deter chronic vandalism about anal intercourse? Freedomlinux 02:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Or at least a citation to support the notion that Beato liked it up the bum... :~) Pinkville 02:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

ToC floating (or not)
On this edit: What's bad about having the ToC float? -- Hoary 06:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Earliest color photographs?
Look at these, the first photo (from the 1860's) appears to be a color photograph. (The earliest known color photo is from 1861). Is this real, or did someone "photoshop" it at some point? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Samurai.jpg Here's another one, but more fated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Satsuma-samurai-during-boshin-war-period.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Russianspy3 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * These are hand-coloured albumen print photographs, not colour photographs, but correctly dated original images. Pinkville (talk) 23:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sudan Photos
Probably ought to explain that last edit. There appear to be about 50 photos in the collection of The National Archives of photographs by Beato of Egypt and the Sudan taken c.1885.

You can see the list here

--62.25.109.195 (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

-- Sorry, probably would have been easier if I'd signed in for that. Mr impossible (talk) 14:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. I've seen this list before, and it may well be true that the Sudan photos listed are by Beato, but without any further supporting evidence we can't be sure. I would love to see the actual images and I imagine some researcher will eventually get around to confirming whether they are Beato's work or not. (For that matter, they might be by Felice's brother, Antonio - also a photographer - who lived and worked in Egypt!). Until such comfirmation, it remains true that none are known to have survived. I also reverted the addition of "Egypt" because earlier in his career Felice Beato made many photos in that country and so the statement that very few of his Egypt photos have survived is misleading. Pinkville (talk) 20:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah. Two things. Firstly, I've actually seen these photographs. I'll have to see about getting them up on The National Archives Flickr page. Secondly, you misunderstand what these records are. Each one of the images (a number of which are fabulous by the way) is attached to a signed form attesting to the authorship of the photograph for copyright purposes. (Hence the catalogue references of COPY 1) I am that researcher. You couldn't get a clearer attribution! --Mr impossible (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Since The National Archives have three pictures by Felice Beato from Sudan on its Flickr page, I have just uploaded two of them onto Commons and will use them for other articles. But in the meantime, the former tenet that none of these photos were known to exist today has been deleted. Munfarid1 (talk 16:11, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

FAR
Hi everyone! As everyone who is watching this page probably already knows, this article was nominated for a FAR almost two weeks ago, but the FAR was untranscluded due to multiple nominations from the same editor. Normally this would mean that it would just be re-transcluded when the other noms moved through the pipeline, but in this case it's a bit different. In the gap between when it was initially nominated and now, we have instituted a new rule that calls for talk page notification before FARs are initiated, in order to allow work on the article beforehand and hopefully reduce the need for full blown FAR processes. There is also the problem that the nominator has been blocked as a sock (the master account is blocked as well), and although that doesn't mean the points they made in the FAR are completely invalid, we can't really ask them what their rationale was on various points. Here is the discussion from the FAR page so far, and my reply:

Featured article from 2005 which has 1c problems throughout. There are only two citations in the "China" section, and none in the "Japan" and "Later life" sections. Expansion may also be needed for the article to be fully comprehensive, and the list of selected photographs needs to be replaced by a gallery. Jan 1922 (talk) 20:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Not arguing, just wondering: What's the meaning of "1c problems", why should the list of selected photographs be replaced by a gallery, and which area(s) of Beato's work or life appear to need expanded coverage? -- Hoary (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Featured article criteria 1c states that the article must be "well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature.  Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;".
 * The last sentence is usually the most problematic on older FARs, as inline citation and high quality reliable source requirements have become more strict over time. I'm not sure why Jan wanted a gallery, as those are often discouraged in FAs (actually in all articles), and I'm also not sure about the expansion request.
 * As for myself, I would like to point out that the lead should be expanded as WP:LEAD calls for 2-3 paragraphs for an article of this length. There is also one dab link and half a dozen dead links. Dana boomer (talk) 14:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you; that's helpful. I've transcluded "Featured article tools" (itself titled "Toolbox"), which should show the dud links. If nobody else gets around to fixing these within a few days, then I'll attempt it. I'll also reconsider the lead. ¶ Meanwhile, Featured article review/Felice Beato/archive1 may have been untranscluded, but anyone coming across it would infer that a (curiously mute) FAR is in progress. -- Hoary (talk) 23:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * True. I've left a note that the FAR is "on hold" and discussion should take place here. Dana boomer (talk) 00:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

"Beitang"
Yes, the article has problems. I thought that fixing disambigs would be easily, and so I lazily decided to do that alone today. My job looked easier when I found that there was only one link to a disambig page. Unfortunately I can't confidently choose among two of the options provided. I therefore asked here.

Which I bother to relate here mostly in order to avoid the impression that nobody cares about the problems in this article or about having these fixed. -- Hoary (talk) 02:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ling.Nut has kindly fixed the disambig. So now this article has one fewer species of problem. -- Hoary (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Imperial Summer Palace before the Burning
I've pulled out:


 * Imperial Summer Palace before the Burning, Yuen-Ming-Yuen (sic), Pekin, October 18th, 1860
 * View of the Belvedere of the God of Literature [Wen Chang Di Jun Ge] (now known as the Studio of Literary Prosperity or Wen Chang Ge), Garden of the Clear Ripples [Qing Yi Yuan] (now known as the Summer Palace or Yihe Yuan), Peking (now Beijing), China, 1860

because the link doesn't work. The Peabody Essex Museum website still exists but I can't find the photograph within it. But perhaps PEM will eventually improve its site so that it will be findable. -- Hoary (talk) 02:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

FAR comments
I am planning on putting this up for FAR, but I would like to post my concerns on the talk page first. The major problems with the article is the lack of references, like in the sections "Japan" and "Later Years". Also, there should be a removal of the "Selected photographs" as its irrelevant. GamerPro64 17:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I now have material for a lot of small improvements; these should be in place within 24 hours. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Korea
Of Beato's trip to Korea, we read that:


 * The views Beato took on this expedition are the earliest confirmed photographs of the country and its inhabitants.

Which was unsourced.

Choi Injin and Park Juseok's book The Century of Korean Photography: Images from the Land of the Morning Calm (Seoul: RIHP, 2001; no ISBN) doesn't mention Beato or any other very early photographer by name, but does talk of a military photographer with a French squadron in 1866. This would predate Beato. Choi and Park only mention such very early photography in passing, but a statement sourced laconically trumps another not sourced at all. I therefore removed the assertion. The assertion may well be correct, but if so then let's see a source. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Now kind-of fixed. -- Hoary (talk) 12:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Uncited references
A lot of the references weren't actually cited. I've therefore removed them, but I reproduce them below. -- Hoary (talk) 13:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Auer, Michèle, and Michel Auer. Encyclopédie internationale des photographes de 1839 à nos jours/Photographers Encyclopaedia International 1839 to the Present. Hermance: Editions Camera Obscura, 1985. ISBN 2903671052; ISBN 2903671060.
 * Bennett, Terry. Korea: Caught in time. Reading, UK: Garnet Publishing, 1997.
 * Bernard J Shapero Rare Books London, at Ideageneration.co.uk, Photo-London. Accessed 3 April 2006. [Material from before April 2008 has been deleted from this website.]
 * Best, Geoffrey. Mid-Victorian Britain, 1851–75. London: Fontana Press, 1971.
 * Blau, Eve, and Edward Kaufman, eds. Architecture and Its Image: Four Centuries of Architectural Representation, Works from the Collection of the Canadian Centre for Architecture. Montréal: Centre Canadien d'Architecture/Canadian Centre for Architecture, 1989.
 * Boston University Art Gallery. "Of Battle and Beauty: Felice Beato's Photographs of China". Accessed 3 April 2006. [Now here c/o the Wayback Machine, but very small reproductions]
 * Dobson, Sebastian. "Yokohama Shashin". In Art and Artifice: Japanese Photographs of the Meiji Era — Selections from the Jean S. and Frederic A. Sharf Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Boston: MFA Publications, 2004.
 * George Eastman House. "India"; "Technology and War". Accessed 3 April 2006.
 * Masselos, Jim. "The Photographer's Gaze: Seeing 19th Century India", VisAsia. Resume of speech given on 7 September 2004. Updated 2005; as archived by the Wayback Machine on 30 April 2006. [Just a list of titles; nothing much of interest here.]
 * Musée Nicéphore Niépce. "Thé/Laque/Photographie". Collection du musée Niépce. Accessed 3 April 2006. Here at the Wayback Machine, but the text is uninteresting and the photographs are impossible, or at least very hard, to access]
 * Osman, Colin. "Invenzione e verità sulla vita di Felice Beato". In 'Felice Beato: Viaggio in Giappone, 1863–1877', eds. Claudia Gabriele Philipp, et al. Milan: Federico Motta, 1991. (P. 17, fig. 14.)
 * Oztuncay, Bahattin. James Robertson: Pioneer of Photography in the Ottoman Empire. Istanbul: Eren, 1992. (Pp. 24–26.)
 * Peabody Essex Museum. Collections: Photography. Accessed 31 October 2010. [It's not at all clear how this website can be used]
 * Perez, Nissan N. Focus East: Early Photography in the Near East, 1839–1885. New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1988.
 * Phoebe A. Hearst Museum of Anthropology. The World in a Frame: Photographs from the Great Age of Exploration, 1865–1915, s.v. "Felice Beato". Accessed 3 April 2006.
 * Rahman, Ram. "Camera Indica: Photography as history and memory in the 19th century". Frontline volume 18, issue 15, 21 July – 3 August 2001. Accessed 3 April 2006. [In part a description of Masselos and Gupta's book]
 * Satow, Ernest. A Diplomat in Japan. London: Seeley, Service, 1921. Many reprints. Beato is mentioned at the beginning of Chapter X, "Shimonoseki — Naval Operations". [Yes, but only mentioned.]
 * Union List of Artists Names, s.v. "Beato, Felice". Accessed 3 April 2006.
 * Vintage Works, s.v. "Robertson, James". Accessed 3 April 2006.
 * Vintage Works, s.v. "Robertson, James and Beato, Felice". Accessed 3 April 2006.
 * Zannier, Italo. Verso oriente: Fotografie di Antonio e Felice Beato. Florence: Alinari, 1986.
 * New York Public Library Digital Gallery, Beato image of Shrine steps where Shogun Minamoto no Sanetomo was killed
 * Canadian Centre for Architecture. Collections Online, "Panorama of Edo (now Tokyo)", PH1981:0809:001-005. Accessed 31 October 2010.

I've also added to this one or two references that were used but that I was unable to consult and that I have replaced with other references that say the same thing, that are just as authoritative, and that I have seen. -- Hoary (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm adding notes to some, in "[ ]". -- Hoary (talk) 07:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced passages
I'm removing passages that nobody has yet sourced:

From the end of "Taku Forts"

 * The resultant photographs are a powerful representation of military triumph and British imperialist power, not least for the purchasers of his images: British soldiers, colonial administrators, merchants and tourists. Back in Britain Beato’s images were used to justify the Opium (and other colonial) Wars and they shaped public awareness of the cultures that existed in the East.

From the end of "Summer Palace"

 * Hering had them duplicated and then resold them. When they first went on sale single views were offered at 7 shillings, while the complete India series was priced at £54 8s and the complete China series at £37 8s. Knowing that by 1867 the average per capita income in England and Wales was £32 per year puts the price of Beato’s photographs into perspective.

two references needed for the note

 * Collette, Jean-Michel. “Empirical Inquiries and the Assessment of Social Progress in Western Europe: A Historical Perspective”. Social Policy and Development Programme Paper number 3. United Nations Research Institute for Social Development, June 2000. Available here (PDF) at the UNRISD website. Accessed 19 June 2011.
 * Studenski, Paul. The Income of Nations: Theory, Measurement, and Analysis: Past and Present: A Study in Applied Economics and Statistics. New York: New York University Press, 1958.

on his time in Burma

 * Examples of his mail order catalogue — affixed with Beato’s own photographs of the merchandise on offer — are in the possession of at least two photographic collections.

on the wet collodion process (within the discussion of photographic techniques)

 * Beyond aesthetic considerations, the long exposure times needed by this process must have been a further stimulus to Beato to frame and position the subjects of his photographs carefully. Apart from his portrait-making, he often posed local people in such a way as to set off the architectural or topographical subjects of his images, but otherwise people (and other moving objects) are sometimes rendered a blur or disappear altogether during the long exposures. Such blurs are a common feature of 19th century photographs.

on copy prints (within the discussion of photographic techniques)

 * Like other 19th century commercial photographers, Beato often made copy prints of his original photographs. The original would have been pinned to a stationary surface and then photographed, producing a second negative from which to make more prints. The pins used to hold the original in place are sometimes visible in copy prints. In spite of the limitations of this method, including the loss of detail and degradation of other picture elements, it was an effective and economical way to duplicate images.

entire section titled "Attribution"

 * While the signatures he shared with his brother are one source of confusion in attributing images to Felice Beato, there are additional difficulties in this task. When Stillfried & Andersen bought up Beato’s stock they subsequently followed the common practice of 19th century commercial photographers of reselling the photographs under their own name. They (and others) also altered Beato’s images by adding numbers, names and other inscriptions associated with their firm in the negative, on the print or on the mount. For many of Beato’s images that were not hand-coloured, Stillfried & Andersen produced hand-coloured versions. All of these factors have caused Beato’s photographs to be frequently misattributed to Stillfried & Andersen. Fortunately, Beato captioned many of his photographs by writing in graphite or ink on the back of the print. When such photographs are mounted, the captions can still often be seen through the front of the image and read with the use of a mirror. Besides helping in the identification of the subject of the image and sometimes in supplying a date for the exposure, these captions provide one method of identifying Felice Beato as the creator of many images.

'See Also' Section Added with Reference to the Film "Felice, Felice"
I originally put a Talk comment here asking someone to do this, but I think I figured out how to do it OK. If not of course someone can improve or correct it. Hanamizu (talk) 04:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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WP:URFA/2020 review
I was reviewing this article as part of WP:URFA/2020 for a potential WP:TFA run in January. However, when skimming the article I noticed that there are lots of uncited passages, including most of "Burma and later years" and information about his death certificate. Is anyone willing to review this article, add citations and potentially look for additional sources that might be included in this article? If not, I will nominate this for WP:FAR. the FAC nominator, who participated in the 2011 FAR. Z1720 (talk) 16:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I can dig up the citations for the passages you mention and any others that require the same. It might take a little while, but as the principal writer/editor of the article I should still have the relevant notes. Pinkville (talk) 04:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Were you able to find additional sources? I noticed that "Burma and later years" is still largely uncited. Z1720 (talk) 01:16, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've been waiting to get access to the relevant sources. Should be able to update soon. Pinkville (talk) 17:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you still interested in updating this article? Z1720 (talk) 01:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I recently was able to lay my hands on the necessary sources. I should be able to do some work on it soon. Pinkville (talk) 04:08, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There is still a lot of uncited sections. Are you still working on this, or can you send this to FAR? Z1720 (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Still working on this. Should be able to update it soon. Thanks! Pinkville (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)