Talk:Felix the Cat

3/4 world claim
Earlier versions of this article included the claim
 * At the height of Felix's fame in 1925, an estimated three-quarters of the world's population could recognize him

It would be nice if this could be verified.

It is hard to credit, but it is possible that a neutral, non-talking, cartoon character would be reproduced and distributed world wide. Cinema was available in China and India in the 1920s, but was it only in the cities or were there travelling cinema that could have taken Felix to the majority of the rural population? -- Solipsist 07:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, I was the one who wrote that, and it was based on something from one of my animation books. Unfortunately, I'm in Africa at the moment and have no access to said resources. I will say that I can believe it -- I'm in Cameroon, and every little kid here knows the images of Bugs Bunny and Bart Simpson, though if you ask who these characters are, most can't tell you. Amcaja 11:33, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I know this is old, but I thought I'd chip in anyway. Animator Payut Ngaokrachang saw Felix cartoons when he was growing up in 1930s Thailand (then Siam), so the influence of Felix and his ability to reach audiences in many parts of the world seems to be documented.Wisekwai 19:47, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Felix has two daddies
Well, it seems that this article has two primary authors and a host of smaller contributors. user:Lucky 6.9 has nominated this page for Featured Article status, which I think it deserves. This has, however, prompted both Lucky and myself to make many more edits, often of a stylistic nature, and sometimes with apparently different ideas about what's "right" or "good". So, rather than getting into an editing war, I offer a summary of the edits I just made, and a few justifications.

Cartoon titles
In my articles, I've been putting them in quotes rather than italics for a while now. My justification is that these were part of the string of stuff that would show before the movie itself, and thus, they are parts rather than wholes of something. It's the same logic for why titles of short stories are in quotes; they're usually part of a bigger publication. It'd be nice if someone could track down an actual style-book reference about what style short films are supposed to be in, though.

I've also wikified titles of individual cartoons. Wikipedia writers do write articles about such things, so I feel it's best to set up the links now.

"Character animation"
Disney teaches this to its artists, and it's a common term in animation studies and histories. It's a particular kind of animation that merits its own article, in my opinion. Thus, I'd like to leave this wikified in the event I or someone else ever gets around to it.

Commas
Yeah, there were too many. But a few that were deleted are necessary -- such as before the relative pronoun "which" and before "and" when there's a change of subject.

"The popularity persisted."
I re-added the phrase. My thinking is that all the other "mascot" stuff is 1920s-related, then we switch to the 1940s. I'm not married to this phrasing, but it seems more logical to me.

"Sullivan granted permission to Felix . . ."
Took this out. In my opinion, it's understood that Sullivan granted permission since we establish that Felix (the man) is his friend.

"Steamboat Willie"
I changed this back to "an instant sensation." It was. And Sullivan's distributors wanted talkie Felix shorts to cash in on this, not because "Steamboat Willie" had made cinematic history.

"Unfortunately, the studio . . . "
More NPOV without the "unfortunately" part. Unfortunately. :P

Vavoom
Seems redundant to say his voice is earth-shattering and then explain that it breaks rocks. One or the other should go; I changed it to what I think sounds better. Others may disagree.

Jack Mercer
Seems superfluous to say he's the voice of Popeye; in my Looney Tunes articles, for example, I don't say "famous as the voice of Barney Rubble" when I talk about Mel Blanc.

Sonic the Hedgehog
SEGA's very popular videogame mascot, Sonic the Hedgehog, is evidently based on Felix.

This is probably not truth. Sonic the Hedgehog was made in Japan. There Felix the Cat is almost unknown. Sonic is a blue Supersonic Hedgehog. The drawing style is really different. The only common point between Felix and Sonic are that they are antrophomorphic talking animals...


 * I certainly see a bit of Felix in Sonic. There's nothing on the Sonic the Hedgehog article, but according to the Sega Megadrive FAQ: --Tysto 03:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * They decided to make a new Character by holding an internal design competition at Sega Japan. There were 100 competition entries out of which 4 finalists were chosen. The 4 designs were a wolf, a bulldog, a fat man (who was developed into Dr. Robotnic) and a blue hedgehog created by artist Maoto Oshima. He came up with the character by crossing Felix the cat with Mickey Mouse and the developing the character further. The Sonic game was finally released in July 1991 and was a staggering success.
 * I'd prefer a print source to an online FAQ, frankly. But at least this is something. If the statement gets reinserted, be sure to include the reference as well. — Amcaja 12:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * John A. Vince (ed.) - Handbook of computer animation - p. 13 - check on Google Books. Igel B TyMaHe (talk) 13:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Television
The first television image ever broadcast was Felix's.

The entry for John Logie Baird has it that a static image of Felix was broadcast in London in 1924, not the US credit given in the article. --scruss 10:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The John Logie Baird article states that the first ever transmitted image was of a dummy's head, not Felix. I'm guessing (without checking) that the article has been changed since Aug 2005, but I can't ever remember any reference to Felix in connection with Logie Baird.


 * As I recall, a rotating statue (or model) of Felix was used by either NBC or CBS in early TV experiments because the lights were so hot.
 * Right. It was NBC/RCA and a Felix doll. See http://framemaster.tripod.com/Electronictv.html . --Jeremy Butler 12:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's it, I think. I'm very flexible about many of these; comment if you disagree with my logic. I think the article's in great shape, and I'd be very happy if we got this thing on the front page someday. And please don't take any of this as personal attacks or edit warmongering. Remember that everything reads more "angry" in plain text. And I'm a pretty happy guy right now. :) Amcaja 09:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No, no...looking really, really good. If it helps get the featured status nod, so much the better. Thank you SO much for the references. Mine came mostly from memory and the Net. - Lucky 6.9 18:42, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think this whole article / " who created Felix the cat" issue' is a complete fabrication. The fact that you halfwits @ Wikipedia even take Otto Mesmer's & John Cainmakers claims as half serious is a god dame joke in it's self. .... For many decades Pat Sullivan was & is the known creator of Felix the cat. & this fact remained undisputed .... Then in 1977, long before the internet on the other side of the world in the lowly USA, Away from Europeans & Australian's or the rest of the world a know-body by the name of John Cainmaker is writing a book about U.S animation. Now' keep in mine this is in 1977, & Without the use of the internet, & without traveling further than a few blocks from his own home. Without even attempting to research his facts, John cainmaker interviews a self serving attention seeking Otto Mesmer. Now keep in mind, John Cainmaker had already pre-decided / without research assumed, that Felix the cat was an American cartoon supperstar. This is evident by the fact that cainmaker had included Felix the cat into his book on U.S animation history!

So to sum up, in 1977 John Cainmaker failed to do the necessary research into his book, & failed to confirm the accuracy of his lies. Tody we can cheek facts via the internet, but back in 1977 cainmaker nor the rest of the world had the internet to cross cheek their facts. So in lue of doing any research or fact cheeking himself, John Cainmaker just made up a story / version of history ( HE ) wanted to be true. Not Once ever thinking' That One-day in the Future the Internet be created & that the internet would allow his lies to be challenged & exposed. Had John Cainmaker done his research back in 1977, he would have found the 1917 Pat Sullivan move in the U.S library of congress.

In 1977' John cainmaker published the lies of Otto Messmer without ever checking the accuracy of his claim. In 1977 John Cainmaker did not even know of Pat Sullivan or that it was Pat Sullivan who really created Felix the cat. In 1977 John cainmaker published the lies of Otto Messmer & swallowed his story hook line & sinker. In 1977 john cainmaker published that it was an American who created Felix the cat because it fited what he wanted to hear & it fitted into his book on the history of U.S animation.

In 1977 long before the internet & without checking his facts john cainmaker published the story's of a second rate animator by the name of Otto Messmer & ever since then John cainmaker has been defending his lies by trying to re-wright the facts & history to fit the lies he published in 1977.

Cainmaker & Mesmer claimed that otto Mesmer created Felix the cat in 1919, yet since the 1917 movie & even earlier drawings have be re-discovered. John Cainmaker & his ( ONE Time ) supporter have retreated & have not said anything further on the now know lies by Otto messmer & John Cainmaker. Instead deciding to distance themselves from the now discredited John Cainmaker.

Thu proving ONCE & FOR ALL that the one & only creator of Felix the cat is Australian Pat Sullivan, & Only Pat Sullivan.

Only Wikipedia & all the children who edit it seem to think the story of felix the cat & who created it is an ongoing concern. Now if wikipedia is going to survive into the future, ( & if it wants to keep asking for donations ) Wikipedia will need to start posting the facts & not the lies of washed up failed animators like John Cainmaker.

I also tend to agree with many of the posters on this site when they say, way to much weight is given to the claim that the creator of Felix the cat is in dispute. As it is not & has not been for a very long time. Pat sullivan was always credited as the creator of Felix the cat. The facts support the fact that Pat sullivan is the creator of felix the cat. & until otto messmer & john cainmaker can back up thir fictions story of otto messmer .... then this site should reflect the fact that Pat sullivan is the sole creator of Felix the cat & that john cainmaker claims otherwise.

But instead wikipedia seems to wanna push the lies & propaganda of a few crazy Americans without requiring any evidence to their claims at all. ( like the articale sez ) " Just another example of American lies propaganda & thievery. Taking the claims of John cainmaker & Otto Messmer' as unbiased bystanders, is like taking the word of Hitler on the holocaust. BIAS. BIAS. BIAS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.251.125 (talk) 10:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Controversy
Rather than the bald statement about Messmer, shouldn't there be some mention of the claims that Sullivan created Felix? I believe the jury is still out on this. Grant65 (Talk) 13:53, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Grant65, although certainly contentious, the question of who created Felix appears to me somewhat biased. As the ABC-TV article points out, it may be a case of the States commonly "taking" something and claiming it as its own; it may be a slight case of Tall Poppy Syndrome, an affliction often labeled upon Australians. Personally, I agree with the assertion it's the key-drawings that would give someone title to the claim.

Excerpts from the ABC-TV Felix transcript:
 * CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Animation historian Vane Lindsay believes the key-drawings are central to the dispute.


 * VANE LINDSAY: Felix is Sullivan's creation. Similarly with Walt Disney. Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse, but he didn't draw the cartoons, nor did he draw the comic strips. But they carried his signature.


 * JOHN CANEMAKER: It's true, Walt Disney did not draw Mickey Mouse, and in fact, he didn't design Mickey Mouse, but there is no doubt that Walt Disney was the creative thrust behind the success of that character. He oversaw the creation of those films and how the animators worked. He was on top of every one of those films in a way that Otto Messmer was, but Pat Sullivan was not.

and


 * JUDY NELSON: I did write away to the Library of Congress wanting to find out the earliest films they had records of. And the copyright office sent me this record here. The film is called 'The Tail of Thomas Kat', 1917. It was half a reel of film, and they actually give a date - 3 March 1917 was when it was registered for copyright in Pat Sullivan's name.


 * CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Importantly, the Library of Congress document confirms Sullivan's ownership of the film. It premiered many of the cat's trademark characteristics like his removable tail, which would become a feature of Felix three years later.

This evidence seems to me quite clear and is merely a matter of what constitutes creator/owner status.

Can someone verify the Library of Congress documents and 1917 copyright?

--Hax0rw4ng 10:49, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the main page summary of this article is seriously biased in a way that illustrates exactly what can go wrong in Wikipedia. Pat Sullivan's creation of Felix was never disputed during his lifetime and although Messmer was an animator in the studio he only claimed to have created Felix 34 years after Sullivan's death when there were no other studio employees still alive to contradict him. This article within the first paragraphs treats his unproven claim as true and slights Sullivan despite evidence which supports Sullivan (see above the 1917 "The Tail of Thomas Kat" and other comments re key drawings). It should be remembered that Sullivan was himself a cartoonist, not merely an entrepreneur. This controversy is, as it should be, discussed in the article and the evidence weighed but it is surely completely unacceptable for the article to endorse one position so emphatically in the first few paragraphs, especially when the claim for Messmer seems to be driven by an overwhelming element of american chauvinism - the same questions could easily be raised regarding the origins of any group or corporate creative endeavour.

--ian.milliss 21:56, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pat Sullivan opened his studio in 1915. March 1917 - Pat registers copyright "The Tail of Thomas Kat". Otto Messmer began working for Sullivan in 1917. Otto shortly after joined the army - and retunred in 1919. Feline Follies was created based on "Thomas the Kat" in 1919 by Sullivan's studio. (He was called Master Tom in that cartoon.) This was followed by Musical Mews in the same year. The Adventures of Felix was the cat's third cartoon, also 1919, where he finally got his name, coined by John King of Paramount Pictures. In 1922, Bill Nolan and Otto Messmer redesigned Felix to a more rounder cat. 1933 Pat Sullivan died 1936 the Van Bueren Studio bought rights to the character 1950's - Joe Oriolo works as an assistant to Otto Messmer 1954 Joe Oriolo takes over Felix comic strip from Otto Messmer 1960 Felix was revived once more, this time on TV, by producer Joe Oriolo (famous for Casper)

The creator of the original cat character that started it all was definately Pat Sullivan. The adapter and key animator was Otto Messmer. The Felix most of us know was adapted and animated by Joe Oriolo.

- Stuart.
 * Unfortunately, many animation historians disagree with you. It's important to reflect both sides of this debate in the article, which, in my opinion, the article currently does. — Amcaja 16:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Those U.S. animation historians have been trotting out that Otto Messmer dubious claim for along time now, it is the WMDs of animation, it is many people claiming a falsehood. OTTO MESSMER: Sullivan's studio was very busy, and Paramount, they were falling behind their schedule and they needed one extra to fill in. And Sullivan, being very busy, said, "If you want to do it on the side, you can do any little thing to satisfy them." So I figured a cat would be about the simplest. Make him all black, you know - you wouldn't need to worry about outlines. And one gag after the other, you know? Cute. And they all got laughs. So Paramount liked it so they ordered a series. Feline Follies is Pat Sullivan's work, Although Messmer and Canemaker tried to isolate Pat Sullivan from his creation. Although he was dead and could not defend himself he left undeniable evidence that he was writing and animating Feline Follies. Pat Sullivan left his DNA all over that animation, recently it was discovered that the lettering throughout Feline Follies is that of the "very busy" Pat Sullivan. Here we have the gang that can't shoot straight, besides claiming of the cat at the wrong time and blissfully unaware of 'The Tail of Thomas the Kat' and blissfully unaware of Sullivan's lettering throughout Feline Follies. Otto Messmer was adamant he created Feline Follies all by himself, at home, all by himself... the true creator (the "very busy" Pat Sullivan) of Felix did not touch it, it was entirely his work You can see Messmer's lie for yourself. http://www.vixenmagazine.com/News.html —Preceding 13:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The article still seems to assert as a fact that Otto Messmer is the true creator of Felix, however, no one has yet provided any proof what-so-ever to backup this statement. The only cited evidence is Messmer’s self-beneficial claims. Evidence supporting Sullivan is simply dismissed with vague arguments. None of the "leading historians" provide any real additional information, only opinion. It could be noted that there are at least as many historians that side with Sullivan.

Messmer himself claimed Sullivan to be the creator, even after Sullivan died, and only changed his story many years later. The established fact is that Sullivan is the creator, and Messmer has made a claim that has yet to be verified. This should be reflected in the article. The current wording imposes undue bias and opinion, and frankly smacks of xenophobia.

- Steven —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.41.248 (talk) 00:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The claim that the lettering in the films has been identified as Sullivan's is spurious. One of the notable features of Pat Sullivan's lettering, as evidenced in the samples used for comparison on the vixenmagazine.com website, is his fat, or convex, 'A's - the two down strokes tend to curve outwards. This is nowhere to be seen in the film lettering examples, where the lines are straight, with a tendency for the righthand stroke to actually curve inwards. This would suggest to me that Sullivan did NOT do that lettering. Until an accredited graphologist can be cited, I suggest the line: 'The art and lettering in Feline Follies have been identified as Pat Sullivan's work, whereas Messmer's claim completely excluded Sullivan from the animation.' be removed.

In March 1917 Sullivan's studio released "The Tail of Thomas Kat" in which a cat loses his tail to a determined chicken, is mocked by a dog, but when the dog has a tin can tied to his tail the cat sees that being tailless has its advantages. The loss of the tail is central to the film - there is no suggestion that it could be put back on. It is therefore not an example of the surreal use of his tail, (and other objects) that Felix later developed. Sullivan's studio released 22 cartoons that year, many of which were credited to other animators. So it is quite possible that Sullivan could have animated this film. No copy is known to exist so we have no way of knowing what the cat looked like. This is the only Sullivan Studios cartoon to feature a cat as the central character until "Feline Follies"(1919). A few featured dogs, but most centred on human characters.

After Sullivan reopened his studio in 1918, he rehired Messmer as his main animator. For Universal they started a series based on a cartoon caricature of Charlie Chaplin - just named "Charlie" (renamed "Charley" when Sullivan and Universal parted company, pesumeably for copyright reasons. While he was probably doing some animation himself at this point, Sullivan now needed to concentrate on the managerial and promotional side of the business, as it was important to re-establish distribution for his product.

There is no reason to doubt that Sullivan assigned Messmer to make "Feline Follies"; we cannot tell whether or not he suggested the subject matter.

That the cat in "Feline Follies", named as "Master Tom", was based on "The Tail of Thomas Cat" is unlikely - too much time, and too many other films, had flowed under the bridge by then. Calling a tom cat "Thomas" is hardly original - which is why, when Sullivan realised he had a new starring character in his stable, he renamed him Felix.

It is certainly true Messmer developed all the mannerisms that personified Felix - the surreal use of his tail as a prop (along with anything else handy on screen!) and especially his trademark pacing up and down deep in thought. (It may be noted that none of these traits actually occur in "Feline Follies" – the success of this film initiated the "cat" series, but his character was as yet undeveloped.)

By Felix's heyday in the 20s Sullivan had given up animating altogether, focussing on running the studio, promoting his films and doing marketing deals.

Although Messmer's claims came after Sullivan's untimely death, they were supported rather than refuted by other animators from Sullivan's studio. When Al Eugster joined the studio in 1925 Messmer was not only animating Felix, but also running the studio. Sullivan and his wife were promoting Felix around the globe and he only occasionally visited New York at this time. [As related by Shamus Culhane in "Talking Animals and Other People".]

Doubtless Messmer had exaggerated his case a little - one person's view is always slightly distorted - but against that, Sullivan's claims to have created Felix were made purely for the sake of promotion. (And quite rightly too - it was his studio, and Felix was his big star: it was important that the public associated Felix with the Studio Head.)

It is a pity that Sullivan’s supporters have tried to claim him as the animator of the early Felix films, which is demonstrably not the case, instead of researching his true part in the nurturing and exploitation of his star property. Without proper marketing Messmer’s work might never have reached a wide audience, and the name of "Felix the Cat" might never have resonated round the globe. PeterHale (talk) 09:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Despite some soapboxing, you bring up some good points, and I agree that the now archive-only Vixen Magazine citation &mdash; which in itself isn't bylined, and doesn't seem to come from any real magazine but from somebody's personal fan site &mdash; does not appear to be a reliable source by any means, though the vintage newspaper clips and photos it contains make it worth keeping as an External link.


 * This article needs enormous work. I'll try and pop in when I can. If you have succinct suggestions or comments as to other particular problem areas, post 'em here. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Answer to above... Quote (The claim that the lettering in the films has been identified as Sullivan's is spurious. One of the notable features of Pat Sullivan's lettering, as evidenced in the samples used for comparison on the vixenmagazine.com website, is his fat, or convex, 'A's - the two down strokes tend to curve outwards. This is nowhere to be seen in the film lettering examples, where the lines are straight, with a tendency for the righthand stroke to actually curve inwards. This would suggest to me that Sullivan did NOT do that lettering. Until an accredited graphologist can be cited, I suggest the line: 'The art and lettering in Feline Follies have been identified as Pat Sullivan's work, whereas Messmer's claim completely excluded Sullivan from the animation.' be removed.) What a load of rubbish, That's Pat Sullivan's work alright, That 'Goodbye Sydney' sample was a quick spontaneous sketch for a fan, We have other examples of Pat Sullivan's lettering from letters to his lawyer when he was in jail and his 'A's are straight. (John Canemaker's book page 47). Pat Sullivan's work on Feline Follies was used to identify his original artwork. Example "I watched your video on youtube about Felix The Cat and the Evidence that shows it was Pat Sullivan’s creation. I own an original Felix the cat Pat Sullivan sketch that I’m auctioning now... that further proves Mr. Sullivan’s creation" New evidence 'LO MUM! Little Aussie Moggies with an Aussie accent! Good one, Pat! http://www.vixenmagazine.com/News.html Feline Follies has Sullivan's voice. It did not cross Messmer's and Canemaker's mind when they made their claims that Sullivan's work would be so recognisable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.119.183 (talk) 04:04, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I also agree with Grant ... It seems Cainmaker was to quick to claim Felix as American, That he & his supporters have been caught in a tangled web of Messmers Lies, Cainmaker staked his reputation & career on his support of Otto messmer. & now proven wrong by the discovery of Pat Sullivan's 1917 film in the U.S Library of Congress ( a film dated 2 years before Messmer meet Sullivan)It's now a case that Cainmaker is trying to perpetuate a lie in the attempt to hide the truth & make it seem that he ( Cainmaker )was correct in his suspicious claims all a long. But it wont work. To quote the X-Files. the truth is out there. dont know how to get out of their attempt to re-right history.

Also ... The main reason i interjected was to make two points. 1. The Vixenmagazine is of zero relevance as it is a re-post of the Original show called rewind that appeared on the Australian Broadcasting corporation, Which is the Australian version of the British BBC & Canadian CBC Combined the ABC, BBC & CBC are amongst the 3 most trusted broadcasters in the world. the Link to Vixin magazine http://www.vixenmagazine.com/News.html can be deleted. & the link to the ABC's Rewind show should be found & added. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm

Also .... Shouldn't this page ( Felix the cat ) not be similar in content to the Pat Sullivan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Sullivan_%28film_producer%29

Patrick "Pat" Peter Sullivan (22 February 1885[1] or 2 February 1887 – 15 February 1933)[2] was an Australian cartoonist, pioneer animator and film producer, best known for producing the first Felix the Cat silent cartoons.

Sullivan was born in Paddington, Sydney, New South Wales, the second son of Patrick Sullivan (cab proprietor) originally from Ireland, and his Sydney-born wife Margaret, née Hayes.[1] Sullivan arrived in the United States around 1910, after spending several months in London. He worked as assistant to newspaper cartoonist William Marriner, and drew four strips of his own. When Marriner died in 1914 Sullivan joined the new animated cartoon studio set up by Raoul Barre. In 1916 William Randolph Hearst, the newspaper magnate, set up a studio to produce animated cartoons based on his paper's strips and hired Barre's best animators. Sullivan decided to start his own studio and made a series called ‘Sammy Johnsin’, based on a Marriner strip on which he had worked.

It is a matter of some dispute whether Felix was created by Sullivan or his top animator Otto Messmer. American animation historians have accepted Messmer's claim without question, as he was the principal animator on the Felix series. However, it is not proven that Messmer invented the cat and a satisfactory answer has not been given for the matches to Sullivan's lettering and art in work after his opponents had gone to great lengths to exclude him from. After the airing of the Australian Broadcasting Commission's Rewind episode on the dispute in 2004, supporters of Pat Sullivan have suggested that his 1917 film called The Tail of Thomas the Kat (3Mar17 MP866) might be a prototype Felix, and have demonstrated that the handwriting in Feline Follies, the 1919 film that triggered the Felix series, was Sullivan's rather than Messmer's and despite the lengths taken to exclude Sullivan from the creation of Feline Follies there is a poignant scene where small kittens welcome their mother with Pat Sullivan's Australian accent, 'LO MUM! 'LO,MA!.[3]

However, Sullivan was drawing cartoons for Paramount Magazine by 1919 and later when he signed a contract as an animator with Paramount Studios in March 1920, one of the subjects specified in his curriculum vitae was a black cat named Felix who had first appeared in Paramount Magazine as a character named "Master Tom" in a cartoon series named Feline Follies, tending to support Sullivan's claim definitively.[4]

(( The Messmer case ))

Otto James Messmer was born on (August 16, 1892 – & died October 28, 1983)

On 9 November 1919, Master Tom, a prototype of Felix, debuted in a Paramount Pictures short entitled "Feline Follies".[7 Felix The Cat was the world’s first cartooning superstar.

Felix the cat was the worlds first animated cartoon.

Pat Sullivan is know as the creator & illustrator of Felix the cat. Pat Sullivan dies in 1933 ...

in 1977 American animation historian John Canemaker claimed Felix was a U.S creation created by Otto Messmer.

In 1977 Otto Messmer was aged 85 years old & Pat Sullivan had been dead for some 44 / 45 years.

(( FACTS ))

An unemployed Otto Messmer was drafted into world war 1 in 1917 & did not return to the USA until late 1919.

In 1917 Pat Sullivan was sentenced to 6 months in a U.S jail for raping a 14 year old girl.

In late 1917 Pat Sullivan was released from a U.S jail & made the 1917 film.

1977 ... Messmer & U.S Historians claimed Otto Messmer created Felix in 1919 when the film Feline Follies was made. & John Cainmaker loudly maintained that view until 31 October 2004, when it was reveled by the ABC ( Australian Broadcasting corporation ) Program Rewind that John cainmakers view. That Otto Messmer had created Felix the cat in 1919 was wrong & bordered on a lie & a conspiracy to try & claim ownership of yet Another Australian Icon & creation ( see Mary popping & Howard Flory, ect ect ) .. Also reviled on the Rewind show was a film from the United states library of congress that showed a film that Pat Sullivan had filed & trademarked, A 1917 film titled 'The Tail of Thomas Kat', 1917. It was half a reel of film, and they actually give a date - 3 March 1917 was when it was registered for copyright in Pat Sullivan's name ( at a time when Otto Messmer was fighting on the other side of the world in world war one. Otto Messmer was drafted into world war one' as an unemployed man in early 1917. ( at a same time when Pat Sullivan was in a U.S jail for raping a 14 year old girl.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm

CHRISTOPHER ZINN: For those of us sufficiently aggrieved about the Americans moving in our cat, Judy Nelson at the State Library has uncovered some more interesting information to help reclaim Felix as our own. Remember Pat Sullivan's forerunner to Felix was Thomas the Kat that he had developed for a cartoon short called 'Feline Follies'.

JUDY NELSON: I did write away to the Library of Congress wanting to find out the earliest films they had records of. And the copyright office sent me this record here. The film is called 'The Tail of Thomas Kat', 1917. It was half a reel of film, and they actually give a date - 3 March 1917 was when it was registered for copyright in Pat Sullivan's name.

CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Importantly, the Library of Congress document confirms Sullivan's ownership of the film. It premiered many of the cat's trademark characteristics like his removable tail, which would become a feature of Felix three years later.

JUDY NELSON: So to me, that's perfect proof. They just didn't know about that, otherwise they would've taken over possession of that information.

CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Because Thomas the Kat was... The cat in 'Feline Follies was in fact called Tom. So you're saying it's the same character.

JUDY NELSON: The same cat. Prototype for Felix. Most definitely.

Video Capture Image
This image, right at the top right, has been removed twice now without comment. Is there a reason for this or is it the v word? Hu 16:48, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)

DrachenFyre has removed the image twice now. Still no explanation.

Good temp image, BesigedB. Thanks for giving some clue about what is happening in your edit summary, though it is still somewhat of a mystery to me because at no point did I see or do I see anything other than the beautiful image of Felix playing the guitar with the bird on the head of it.


 * Indeed - I assume that some people cannot see that image - does something else come up instead? -- ALoan (Talk) 17:39, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Other Felix image had been vandalized with the goatse.cx image earlier today. This may be fallout from the "fix". --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:58, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh - I'd not heard of Goatse.cx before (and I can see why people would be rather shocked). -- ALoan (Talk) 11:54, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Twisted tales self-redirect?
Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat links back to the same page. Remove redirect and allow Twisted Tales to be a separate page? Chris Wood 13:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Made it into a not-so-stubby stub. Noel (talk) 13:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Felix Images
I decided to contribute a bit to the Wikipedia Felix page. I've added three new images from classic Messmer Felix shorts and some historical information under the "Sound to Silent" section that needed to be fixed. I also pepped up the titles of each section. I hope you don't mind.

- Pietro, GoldenAgeCartoons.com


 * Nice contributions - thanks. You will probably find several other articles on early cartoons that could use some help as well. I've also shuffled the pictures around a bit. I think it is a good idea if the lead image gives a good view of Felix himself; the title screen with Pat Sulivan's name on it seems best associated with the creation dispute section; and it seems quite nice to keep the technicolor frame even if this isn't typical of Felix's appearances. The main downside is that the images don't appear chronologically, but as several of the images are from 1922/23 that's difficult to achieve anyway. -- Solipsist 14:40, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I've added a few more new Felix images and put them in a new order (you'll notice I included the famous Felix pace). Tell me what you think. - Pietro


 * That looks fine to me, although the new images need source, attribution and copyright information. I would imagine they should mostly be tagged film-screenshot. -- Solipsist 08:15, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

No need to fear - I made the images myself from my own copies of the cartoons. All of the shorts are in the public domain except for "Sure-Locked Homes" which I'll add a copyright tag to shortly.

-Pietro


 * Even better - and now they are tagged that is excellent. -- Solipsist 06:44, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The Original Adventures of Felix the Cat
I just removed this line: "In 1991, Felix appeared in his second television series, called The Original Adventures of Felix the Cat." I can't find any reference to this on IMDB, but I didn't search too thoroughly. Is this a real series? If so, it should go back into the article. Amcaja 01:27, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In all my time of researching, I have never heard of such a series. It was never mentioned in the Canemaker book nor was it even mentioned in Jeff Lenburg's Encyclopedia of Animated Cartoons.  Pietro 19:59, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The same anonymous contributor has added the information back in on numerous occasions, but I suspect its just malicious vandalism. All we can do is keep the article on our watchlists and revert when necessary. --Amcaja 23:09, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Creation dispute
Please voice your views on the "Creation" section as it stands now. - Pietro Shakarian 14:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * What was wrong with this version? —Amcaja 15:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant to link this version. —Amcaja 15:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, I think I've finally cleaned up the controversial material in the "Creation" section. "Thomas Kat" is brought up in the second paragraph because many are still not sure that "Kat" was the first Felix cartoon. Whether Sullivan or Messmer created Felix, I'm sure everybody can agree that "Feline Follies" was the short that really launched the series.  For the record, I know for a fact that there were no other cartoons made between "Kat" and "Follies" that involved any other potential Felix precursors. - Pietro Shakarian 17:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about who originally created the character, but from a general style perspective it seems best to start the section with a discussion of the first defining film (apparently "Feline Follies" of 1919). Then move on to a discussion of the competing sides of the controversy with comment on any of the earlier contenders, such as "The Tail of Thomas Kat", as part of that discussion. The current version seems to do this well and partially cites sources for the stated opinions (although I'm not too convinced that an ABC-TV documentary is a particularly reliable source - is there not a better one?). -- Solipsist 17:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * John Canemaker's book and recent research uncovered by animation historian David Gerstein (who I co-maintain the Classic Felix page with on GoldenAgeCartoons.com) are both very reliable sources. They both point to Messmer as the cat's creator.  Other notable American animation historians such as Jerry Beck, Michael Barrier, Mark Kausler, Milt Gray, Donald Crafton, Cole Johnson, and even Jeff Lenburg draw the same conclusion.  Despite this, there is (and probably will be) dispute on the character's creation.  - Pietro Shakarian 18:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * For the record, Charles Solomon supports Messmer as well. Not sure about Maltin. As for the current revision, it looks pretty good. I would remove the line about Sullivan's estate suing people, though. The line seems to imply that Sullivan and his heirs tried to cover up Felix's true creator. That may be true, but implying as much is POV. —Amcaja 18:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Also, I just checked Of Mice and Magic and Maltin supports Messmer's claim too. - Pietro Shakarian 18:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have four main objections to the present wording of the "Creation" section. First of all, a full-rounded cartoon character is a character, i.e. the product (in part) of writing in addition to drawing. Therefore it is not necessarily the product of one animator; it may instead be primarily the product of one or more scriptwriters (witness the decline of Asterix after Goscinny died). And while we're on the subject, who were Felix's scriptwriters? Alternately, a cartoon character may be considered to have been the product of an auteur like Disney (who, as Canemaker admits, did not do much drawing either). Or it may be a collective effort. A viewpoint on Felix by someone from an animation perspective will tend to be overly biased against Sullivan. Second, none of us knows what Thomas Kat looked like. Therefore any speculation on Messmer's contribution to his appearance is just that, i.e. speculation on his appearance. It seems bizarre to associate Messmer with the "familiar black body" and say "he found solid shapes easier to animate" and then add as an afterthought: "The fur color of the earlier Thomas Kat has not been definitively established."  Third, the transcript of the ABC-TV documentary, (which was linked in the article until some kind soul removed it), uses interviews to present a balanced argument. It draws attention to the facts that no one challenged Sullivan's ownership until 34 years (count 'em) after his death and the fact that Canemaker (et al) have overlooked Thomas Kat. It does not "state outright that "Thomas Kat" was an even earlier Felix prototype". Fourth, was Sullivan's estate actually people in Australia? I don't know, and I haven't been able to find out one way or another, which is why I deleted that statement. Grant65 | Talk 00:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The stories of the Felix shorts were not scripted, nor were they storyboarded. Rather, they were drawn out by the animators.  That is, the animators would come up with the situations as they animated the short.  This is how most animation studios in the 1920s worked.  When the phrases "familiar black body" and "he found solid shapes easier to animate" come up in the text, they aren't referring to "Thomas Kat", rather they are referring to Master Tom of "Feline Follies".  Perhaps it would make more sense to move the subsequent line about "Thomas Kat" from the fourth paragraph to the second?  The Sullivan estate was indeed in Australia.  I replaced "stated outright" with "suggested" in reference to the ABC documentary and I restored the ABC link. I appreciate you specifically sounding off your concerns with my edits and I'm always open to new ideas on how the Wiki Felix article could be improved.  I do hope we can work something out.  Thanks! - Pietro Shakarian 01:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey, Grant. I do appreciate your contributions to the Felix Creation section, but I feel the wording of the last paragraph is just fine.  Also, there is no connection between Krazy and Felix (save for the Winkler Krazy shorts which began in 1925 under former Sullivan staffer, Bill Nolan).  Whoever created Felix, whether it be Sullivan or Messmer, I'm almost positive that they would have not inspired by Krazy.  The personality and mannerisms of both characters are very different.  It is a nice thought, but there really isn't much fact behind it. -- Pietro Shakarian 23:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Silent-era costars
Is there anywhere we could re-insert a mention of Inky and Winky, Kitty, and Skiddoo? —Amcaja 20:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think we could mention them in the "Unprecedented popularity" section (maybe to start off the fifth paragraph), stating that since Felix was so successful, the Sullivan crew decided to introduce more characters into the series, etc. - Pietro Shakarian 20:21, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Other Felix images
[Moved from middle of page]

Please discuss the changes you wish to make to the Felix the Cat page on the talk page. If you continue to revert without explanation, I will consider it vandalism, which could lead to a block. Consider this a warning. —Amcaja 00:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia. The most common type of vandalism is the replacement of existing text with obscenities, page blanking, or the insertion of other wholly irrelevant content. Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism."

Adding a picture is NOT vandalism. Thank you. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.6.35.54 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 9 December 2005.
 * On the contrary, when that picture is unverified, unsourced, and lacks copyright information, it can most certainly be considered such. I repeat: Please discuss this. Why do you prefer this picture? Where did you get it? —Amcaja 12:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Let me add: Your behavior earlier marked you as a vandal: You were repeatedly changing the page to an image of questionable copyright and ignoring requests that you discuss first. However, the fact that you have posted here leads me to believe that your changes are being made in good faith and are not intended to "compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia". Still, I urge you to discuss this. Two editors have disagreed with your addition of the poster. Convince us it should be there. —Amcaja 12:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with adding the 1928 Felix poster, as well as keeping the other "early title screen" near the bottom of the article. The only thing I'd have a problem with is the addition of two images of the same 1928 poster, which I've seen is one of the two arrangements this article's been reverted between. I see a display of the 1928 poster as fair use, and as a better heading image than the "Felix pace" image. There's of course a limit to how many images should be on a page--this page shouldn't become a gallery for Felix-related images, but I'd think most or all of the images here now are appropriate to the content. ~GMH talk to me 19:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Animation historians
We need to cite all those animation historians in the References section if we're going to say that they support Messmer in the creation dispute. Likewise, the Sullivan quote should be cited. — Amcaja 23:18, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Song lyrics
Simply quoting a few lines from the song falls easily into fair use, so I reverted the recent cut. — Amcaja 13:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The use of more than a few words of song lyrics has well-established licensing procedures to avoid litigation. Felix the Cat is famous enough that I guarantee the owners renewed the song rights, and the rights are obviously actively managed. This does not really fall under fair use. --Tysto 03:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The first site you link to concerns lyrics sites, which print the entire song; we're only using the chorus. We should avoid copyright paranoia. See also Lyrics and poetry, and featured articles on copyrighted songs: The Cantos, and A Hard Day's Night (both of which quote as much or more of a song). — Amcaja 12:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * On further reflection, though, the Felix theme song is quite short, so what constitutes fair use from it is no doubt shorter than what would constitute fair use for, say, "A Hard Day's Night". And, bottom line, removing the lyrics won't really hurt the article much. I won't revert if you or someone else wants to play this safe and cut the lyrics. — Amcaja 15:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've rethought my opinion as well, and I think I acted hastily based on my experience with Spongebob Squarepants (where the whole song was repeatedly added) and on my memory of The Verve's brutal treatment for sampling the Rolling Stones in "Bitter Sweet Symphony" as well as the well-publicized cases against lyrics sites and song pirates by the famously litigious music labels (and I don't think a label is involved here at all). But I agree that it wouldn't hurt the article much not to have the lyrics, especially since we can maintain the link to the audio version hosted by the official site. WP will get sued one day (over an image, probably), but I think it's likely to broaden fair use/fair dealing rules more than anything. --Tysto 16:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Papier Mache or Wood?
According to http://www.earlytelevision.org/felix.html, the Felix doll used for early television tests was made out of wood, not papier mache, as it states here. --Jeremy Butler 19:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Public domain
Is the character already in the public domain? --Error 01:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * All of the cartoons published prior to January 1, 1924 are presently public domain. However, as of 2007, Dreamworks now owns a trademark on the character, which may limit what you can use the character for. -SuperJedi224, 17:46, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Banned Episode?
Why isn't anything mentioned about the banned episode of Felix floating around Youtube?
 * Who banned it? Do you have proof that it is banned? The fact, though, is that Felix cartoons are not regularly shown in theatres nor on television, so they're all out of distribution. The fact that some random user labeled one cartoon as "banned" and stuck it on Youtube doesn't seem all that relevant here. — Amcaja 12:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

321 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron
I removed:


 * Felix has also been adopted as the official mascot for the British Army Bomb Disposal unit in Northern Ireland, 321 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Squadron. They adopted Felix as a mascot due to his 9 lives and ability to get out of scrapes with his bag of tricks - which was not unlike the early bomb disposal operators. The Squadron is the most highly decorated unit in the British Army despite being less than 100 strong. However, since 1969 there have been 20 operators killed by terrorist bombs in Northern Ireland and Felix has become an iconic figure throughout the Province. The original Felix cartoon has since been redrawn by the Squadron and the insignia it uses is now quite different, but it's heart and soul lies with the original upbeat, loveable cartoon cat.

This needs both a source citation and a serious copy edit to remove the extraneous, off-topic information. Pending these, I place it here. — Amcaja 22:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I know web pages probably aren't considered authoritative but this page would indicate that the cartoon cat used by this Unit doesn't have any link with the Felix of this article beyond them both being cartoon cats with the same name. The Unit's Felix certainly doesn't look anything like the Felix of this article. http://www.freewebs.com/patchtraderandy/felixtheeodmascot.htm Hope that's helpful. 163.1.181.208 14:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Inline citations
I'm going to go ahead and begin adding inline citations to this article to keep it up to the current standards of WP:FAC. I don't own all of the books listed in the References section, so help from others monitoring this article would be much appreciated. — Amcaja 01:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

First Cartoon?
I'm not sure when or where, but is it true that Felix the Cat was the first cartoon ever made?

Pece Kocovski 06:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No, there were several cartoons that preceded any of Felix's outings. See, for example, Gertie the Dinosaur. — Amcaja 09:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Felix: The Kit Cat Klock
I believe this article should mention the famous Kit Cat Klock, which is apparently based off of Felix's character. I was going to make it a separate article, but I think it would be better as a section here instead as a stub on it's own. If anyone wants to write up about it, put on Image:Kit Cat Klock.jpg too, a picture of my clock which I made public domain. -- Reaper  X  04:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Catchphrase
Isn't Felix famous for a catchphrase... Zzzzap! Shouldn't that be mentioned in the article?

--158.234.250.71 16:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought his catchphrase was Righty-O, but I don't have a source for attribution. Klausner (talk) 07:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

New info
Can we have citations for the new information that was added today? I'll leave it be for now, but without source citations, it will be removed. -- Amcaja 02:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Paul Whiteman
Paul Whiteman was a band leader ("Paul Whiteman and his Orchestra") not a singer. Look up the Wikipedia. His band did do a song in the 20's called "Felix the Cat". I have a copy of it as it features jazz great Bix Biederbex. There's a lot of meowing on the disc by the band so maybe Mr Whiteman did one of his few vocals on that cut. The best known Felix songs would be the TV Theme and the 1923 song "Felix Kept on Walking" (Words: Ed. E.Bryant/Music Hubert W. David). A hit in England during the Twenties. Matthew Bateman-Graham 124.168.65.93 10:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)January 2007

What does "Felix" mean?
I'm no Latin student, but in "Creation" it says:

... the cat ought to be renamed "Felix", after the Latin words felis (cat) and felix (luck)...

and later in "Felix as a Mascot" it says:

... his name is partially derived from the Latin word for "happy"...

and according to FreeDict, neither "luck" or "happy" translate into Felix (when trying to translate "Felix" from Latin into English, it said that it didn't recognize it).

Can someone please try to make heads and tails of this? I'm doing a project on Felix the Cat and would like some accurate information about his origins. --Marshmello 19:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The name doesn't translate exactly into English, but according to the wiktionary entry on "felix" it can roughly be translated as both or either "happy" or "lucky". The fact that the name is also similar to "felis" (the Latin word for cat and the taxonomic name of a genus of cats) could very likely have been the reason the name was chosen. It happens fairly often that words don't translate exactly, and it seems that the original Latin word was probably something of a combination of "happy" and "lucky", which do go together fairly easily. Badbilltucker 19:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you!

Krazy
The article is misleading in suggesting felix as an influence on Krazy Kat, animation or otherwise. The newspaper strip was highly successful and influential from its inception in 1913, the influence on Felix would more likely be true. Nice article otherwise - deserves to be FA. ☻ Fred|☝ discussion |✍ contributions  19:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This article is ancient by Wikipedia standards, and it was granted FA almost four years ago, so there are doubless some statements that need updating or sourcing. Unfortunately, my books are all in America (and I am not), so I can't help on that front. However, if you have references and can help out, please be bold and do so. The Krazy/Felix connection might be one place to start! :) — Amcaja ( talk ) 22:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

question of origin
From what I've read, Felix was originally a comic created by Messmer. If anyone could find some evidence of this I think it might settle the dispute of who is Felix's creator, based on comic dates and such. Or at least who the origianl comic artist was that all the felix cartoons are based off.


 * -_____-; did you even read the article? The entire first section covers that issue, and there are even a few in-line references you can check out. And as for Messmer being the creator: Sullivan came up with the original concept pf Felix the Cat, and thus created him. Messmer was later put more-or-less 'in charge' later on, and is responsible for the evolution of Felix's personality, but Felix is still Sullivan's creation. To quote from http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm:
 * Felix is Sullivan's creation. Similarly with Walt Disney. Walt Disney created Mickey Mouse, but he didn't draw the cartoons, nor did he draw the comic strips. But they carried his signature.
 * --Marshmello 20:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"long-legged" Felix
The intro makes mention of "a redesigned, 'long-legged' Felix". It would be nice if there were a picture of long-legged Felix somewhere in the article (or if one of the pictures in the article *is* long-legged Felix, that pic could be referenced as such).Originalname37 10:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge Poindexter
I am suggesting that Poindexter be merged to Felix the Cat and that the page be redirected to Poindexter (disambiguation). This is partially based on Notability (fiction) and partially based on the list of notable people at Poindexter (disambiguation) that include an Astronaut, a Admirals and a Governor. Jeepday (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This article is about the character Felix the Cat and shouldn't be bogged down with excessive details about his co-stars. I notice we don't have an article on the TV series Felix the Cat, and probably should. That would be the appropriate merge target in my view. — Dulcem (talk) 02:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that typing "Poindexter" should bring you a disambiguation before the character. It is a real surname. I also agree that the TV series should be given its own article. --RaphaelBriand (talk) 22:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose. For the same argument as User:Dulcem I believe the article shouldn't be merged. I suggest there be an article for Poindexter (fictional character) or something of the sort. And that Poindexter be a disambiguation page. JunCTionS 19:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I agree with JunCTionS. TheMile (talk) 11:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with renaming and disambiguating and that an article about Felix the Cat the series should be created and then considerations made about whether that would be a more acceptable merge target. Stardust8212 13:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tv-felix.jpg
Image:Tv-felix.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Felix-canemaker.jpg
Image:Felix-canemaker.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I loved Felix dearly as a child. However, I recollect his being used by Henry Ford in an extremely toxic anti semetic short film from the early 20's. I don't recall the title of the short. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.155.110.74 (talk) 19:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

felix the cat on LSD blotter paper
thhis cartoon was on LSD paper —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.107.113 (talk) 07:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

2012 Movie
Someone keeps adding things about a Live-action/animated film called Felix the Cat to be released in 2012. I've removed it about 4 times now from this page and from the Felix the Cat template; I have not seen anything confirming this. Can anyone confirm something about a supposed movie coming out, or can we get this article and the template at the bottom protected from IP's so this guy goes away? --jonrev (talk) 06:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Batman Returns
Are there "Felix the Cat"-references in the movie Batman Returns or is it just a very big coincidence, that there are "Felix the Cat"-lookalike clocks on the outside and faces on the shop-windows? --93.135.50.219 (talk) 17:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Most likely a coincidence, if there were any hidden cartoon references I'm sure it would've been Looney Tunes characters (Batman Returns and the Looney Tunes are both owned by Warner Brothers).--jonrev (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

weasel words in cultural legacy
I see the words "It is believed that Naoto Ōshima looked to Felix the Cat as inspiration for the design of Sonic the Hedgehog."

WHO believes it and why? Without any evidence straight from the horse's mouth, I would myself be FAR more inclined to believe that Sonic's character inspiration came from the Tazmanian Devil. They both share the conjoined eyes, and ol' Taz is famous for nothing else than moving so fast as to resemble a living tornado that annihilated even trees in his path.

174.25.84.93 (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Voice of Felix
Who voiced Felix in 1930s? Was it Mae Questel as article was saying a while ago or Walter Tetley as i see now? No citation on both! --Igel B TyMaHe (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Most probably Walter Tetley. A number sources say so. 99.9.158.56 (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

To many Messmer assumptions & erroneous facts in article.
How is it that the editors of this page are so bias towards the lies of Otto Messmer & John cainmaker. ?

How is it that Cainmaker & otto messmer can lie & claim that Otto Messmer created Felix the cat, & wikipedia just goes along with these lies. .... Only After Pat Sullivan died did Cainmaker & Messmer lay claim to Otto messmers creation of Felix the cat. & to claims their claim' thay claim ( without any proof ) That the 1919 Felin follies film was created by Otto Messmer & not Pat Sullivan.

Messmer & Cainmaker claim that because otto messmer claims he drew the animation for the very first felix film ( felin follies ) that is proff that Messmer was the creator of felix the cat. ....

& then .... & only after Australian animation historians disputed John Cainmakers' & Otto Messmers Claims lies. Lies that claim otto Messmer created Felix in the year 1919. & a claim that whats us all to believe pat Sullivan had nothing to do with the creation of felix the cat. .... Then several Animation historians ( Who support Pat Sullivans century old unchallenged ( while he was alive ) claim to be the creator of felix the cat. & after Pat Sullivan was long dead did Otto Messmer & John Cainmaker make their trumped up claim that Otto Messmer created Felix the cat in 1919 when the film feline follies was made.

Otto Messmer & John Cainmaker claim that Otto Messmer created felix the cat when in 1919 Otto Messmer created the first Felix the cat film in Feline follies in 1919.

Fact 1: Otto messmer has been exposed as a fake.

How did Otto messmer create the very first Felix the cat film in 1919, When the Supporters of Pat sullivan proved that the first Felix the cat film was made in 1917, by Pat Sullivan & copyright & trademarked by pat sullivan in 1917. ( evident by the US library of congress documentation )

Fact 2: In 1917 Pat sullivan was in the USA as he served a six month prison sentence in the USA, While Otto Messmer was drafted into the army & was not even in the USA between 1917 & 1919. As evident by his U.S., World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=MIL_DRAFT&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Steve&gsln=Messmer&msdpn__ftp=WA&so=2&geo_a=r&geo_s=us&geo_t=us&o_xid=62916&o_lid=62916&o_sch=Partners

Also ... An unemployed 23 year old' Otto Messmer was drafted into world war 1 in 1917 & did not return to the USA until late 1919.

In late 1917 Pat Sullivan was released from a U.S jail & made the 1917 film ( tail of Thomas the cat 1917 ) While Otto Messmer would be in Europe throughout 1917-1919.

Felix the cat was an evolution of the pat Sullivan creation' felix the cat/Thomas the cat character. & As is the case with all animation. ... E.G Micky mouse started off as steam boat willy, & Smithers from the Simpons started of as a straight black man. It's called Character evolution.

Pat Sullivan created Felix the cat, Pat Sullivan had the original idea, Pat sullivan Draw & filmed the 1917 film the tails of Thomas the cat.

Many more Animators & Historians support Pat Sullivans ownership Than there are supports for the lies of John cainmaker & Otto Messmer.

Fact, John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer are yet to provide any explanation ( while they where alive or from beyond the grave ) as to how they explain the fact that Otto Messmer & John cainmaker have claimed that Otto messmer created felix the cat in the 1919 film feline follies. ( with the un-named cat in feline follies ) Yet Pat Sullivan has already made an earlier 1917 film that both Otto Messmer & John cainmaker where unaware of. How do they account for the 1917 film & it's impact on Otto mesmer & cainmakers claim that messmer created felix the cat in the 1919 film?

LINDSAY FOYLE: Messmer never made the claim that he'd created Felix...until 1967, which was 34 years after Sullivan was dead and long after everybody else that worked in the studio was dead. So you know, anybody can make a claim back then.

How does/did Otto Messmer & john cainmaker explain the changers to their story AFTER the discovery of the 1917 pat Sullivan film?

JUDY NELSON: I did write away to the Library of Congress wanting to find out the earliest films they had records of. And the copyright office sent me this record here. The film is called 'The Tail of Thomas Kat', 1917. It was half a reel of film, and they actually give a date - 3 March 1917 was when it was registered for copyright in Pat Sullivan's name.

CHRISTOPHER ZINN: Importantly, the Library of Congress document confirms Sullivan's ownership of the film. It premiered many of the cat's trademark characteristics like his removable tail, which would become a feature of Felix three years later.

JUDY NELSON: So to me, that's perfect proof. They just didn't know about that, otherwise they would've taken over possession of that information.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/rewind/txt/s1229985.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.251.181 (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Pat sullivan created Felix the cat. So Where is Messmers proof?
Pat Sullivan created Felix the Cat & there is much historical proof to back that up. ... The article even mentions the the first Felix the cat film came out in 1919. Yet there is also a 1917 movie in the library of congress by Pat Sullivan with Pat Sullivan copyright dated 1917.

Otto Messmer claims he invented Felix the cat in 1919. yet both he & John Cainmaker have been unable to explain how, Two years before Otto Messmer claims he create Felix the cat, Pat Sullivan Created, Drew & Filmed the 1917 film. The !917 film is a felix the cat film ... John Cainmaker claims that the cat in the earlier 1917 film is not felix because that cat loses his tail & never gets it back, H

( Funny ) .. John cainmaker is grasping at straws ..... Nowhere in the 1917 film does it say that the cat will never get its tail back.

For example ... In the cartoon' southpark. kenny dies in every episode .... yet know-where does it say he will comeback to life in the next episode. ( & yet he does) It's a cartoon ....

If all Otto Messmer & john cainmaker have is that Thomas the cat is not Felix the cat because in the 1917 film by Pat Sullivan the cat did not be seen to get his tail back ... Then their claims are still lacking any proof to their claims that otto messmer created felix the cat & they need more proof.

Fact is ... their lies have been exposed by the discovery of Pat Sullivans 1917 film.

Wikipedia should enforce its own rules & Guidelines & require John Caninmaker & Otto Messmer to produce their evidence in the form of early art works or films that pre-date Pat Sullivans 1917 film in the library of congress.

Does anybody really believe that one day in 1919 Otto Messmer just woke up one morning' & created & drew Felix the cat & then filmed the 1919 movie all on the same day on the back of a spark of inspiration. just days after he returned from fighting world war 1 in Europe. One day hes blowing peoples brains out & the next day hes drawing cartoons ... Please. ......

Pat sullivan made the 1919 file tails of Thomas the cat .... & Pat sullivan also has/showed his earlier Dawings, Sketches & other works on Felix the cat. Including his 1917 film ... A film Cainmaker & Messmerwhere unaware of. How was the 1919 film the first as they claimed when we now know about the 1917 film.

Every artist has a portfolio & a chronology of their art work over the years & decades. Pat Sullivan produced his in the form of his old drawings, His sketches with his writing, & his signature .... Pat sullivan also has the 1917 film made & copyright protected Two, count them ... two whole years before pat Sullivan & Otto Messmer had even meet one another.& indeed' Even two years before Otto messmer returned to the USA from fighting in the U.S army in Europe, during world war one.

As i said ....

Wikipedia should enforce its own rules & Guidelines & require John Caninmaker & Otto Messmer to produce their evidence in the form of early mesmer art works or films that pre-date Pat Sullivans 1917 artwork & film in the library of congress.

Fact is John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer have no proof that Messmer had any involvement in the creation of Felix the cat. & as such Wikipedia should Enforce its rules & regulations' regarding unsupported claims, lack of evidence & the Burden of proof & facts based on hearsay & double hearsay.

This page / article should reflect the fact that Pat Sullivan is the one & true creator of Felix the Cat (( unless & Until )) John Cainmaker & Otto Messmer can produce Evidence & facts to Support their' as of now UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS. & we all know they will never be able to produce any evidence as their claims where & are a lie. & a total fabrication. Messmer & cainmaker thought the 1919 film was the first ... Long After Pat Sullivan had Died they layed claim to being the creator of the 1919 film. ( they did not know about the 1917 film ) & that where caught out in an act of fraud & deception. & to this day they have been unable to explain how they created Felix the cat in 1919. When Sullivan created the 1917 film two years earlier & his drawings even earlier than 1917.

Oh & can somebody explain to us all, how otto messmer could claim to create Felix the cat in 1919 & yet not know about the 1917 film ... I mean if Messmer is to be believed then should he not have know about the earlier films & artwork pre 1919.

Otto Messmer & John Cainmakrs claims are based on hearsay & double hearsay & their claims lack any evidence or supporting facts & under the rules of Wikipedia they entire argument is tainted with self interest & fabrications. & as such all mention of Otto Messmers claims & John Cainmakers UN-supported views & lack of proof/supporting documentation, should be removed / struck from the Felix the cat page & from Wikipedia.

Too keep the lies of John Cainmaker & otto messmer in the Felix the cat article is to taint wikipedia & lessen the integrity of the Wikipedia Project.

Wikipedia own rules should be enforced & Otto Messmer & john Cainmakers Now proven lies should be removed/deleted on the following grounds/Wikipedia rules. & Pat Sullivans rightful place as the creator of Felix the cat restored.

Wikipedia aims to be a neutral compilation of verifiable, established facts.

This means:

Neutral Wikipedia does not judge or advocate specific views or opinions, or make determinations on "correctness". Where differing views exist, they are presented objectively, without bias or undue weight. Balance derives from reliable sources, not personal judgment.

Compilation Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, consisting of articles written in a particular style. There is a process which advances articles to our goal.

Verifiable Information must be realistically verifiable by others. This is generally done by citing from reliable sources.

Established Original ideas, interpretations, or research cannot be verified, and thus are inappropriate for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a primary source; it strives to be a tertiary source.

Facts Wikipedia documents facts; it does not offer editorial opinions. Articles state the important views which exist, and who holds them ("facts about opinions").

- not contradict each other. The community's view cannot simultaneously be "A" and "not A". When apparent discrepancies arise between pages, editors at all the affected pages should discuss how they can most accurately represent the community's current position, and correct all of the pages to reflect the community's view. This discussion should be on one talk page, with invitations to that page at the talk pages of the various affected pages; otherwise the corrections may still contradict each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.249.15 (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Felix The Cat -Evidence that it was Pat Sullivan's creation HQ Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q498UYOFxhc

(Dec,2010) Recommended at full screen. A demonstration of Pat Sullivan's work on Feline Folliies, This is to support Pat Sullivan as creator of Felix, Otto Messmer. An animator who worked at the Sullivan Studio, claimed emphatically about 40 years after Sullivan's death that he created Feline Follies (1919) all by himself at home away from the boss's studio. (He thought this is where Felix first appeared under the name Tom not realizing that Sullivan had produced The Tail of Thomas the Kat (1917). Messmer and Canemaker excluded Pat Sullivan totally from the creation, but it is here for the world to see in this clip that Sullivan was fully involved, suggesting he was writing the story and calling the shots not Messmer, but as you can see from the evidence here their story now looks extremely thin, based on Canemaker's hearsay evidence, he took the word of a couple of Otto's buddies who worked with Messmer around the mid 1920s not when Felix was being created. Taking the word of buddies is not an exact science for example, Argentinian soccer legend Diego Maradona was backed by his whole team for his hand of God soccer goal but confessed 22 years later it was his hand ball. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/20... Note lettering within the animator's drawinigs (JAM) is a perfect match to that of Sullivan's letter formations also the art mannerisms are that of Sullivan. The art of is now being matched with success, poignantly despite the attempts to exclude Sullivan from the creation of Feline Follies. It is now a farcical situation after claims that Feline Follies was entirely Otto Messmer's work to discover that it is entirely Pat Sullivan's work! At the heart of his claim he claimed a work of Pat Sullivan (Feline Follies) as a work by himself.

Why Sullivan named his cat Felix Australian Cartoonists' Association archivist Lindsay Foyle has written the story of Pat Sullivan in Inkspot the ACA magazine.Here is why Sullivan called his cat Felix ..." Writing in The Sydney Mail on July 1, 1936 Australian cartoonist, Kerwin Maegraith - a friend of Sullivan's - quoted him saying it came from Australia Felix the name of a Henry Handel Richardson book. Richardson, who in reality was Ethel Florence Lindesay Robertson, had been working on the book in Australia in 1912 and had completed it in London in 1915. It was published in 1917 with quite respectable sales.

The term had first been used by Major Thomas Mitchell, when describing land he explored in central Victoria in 1836. It was also used in Richard Howitt, Impressions of Australia Felix in 1845 and in the name of Australia Felix Monthly Magazine in 1849.

Maegraith also quoted Sullivan saying he drew Felix in solid black after the boxer Peter Felix who had fought for the NSW heavyweight championship the year Sullivan left Sydney. He always appeared in black, frightened children and apparently left an impression, as heavyweight boxers can." http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing... (Sullivan had a great interest in boxing, when he arrived in New York he boxed for prize money)There are two versions by Messmer on how Felix got his name on Otto Messmers official site it says Messmer returned From the American army during World War 1 and rejoined Sullivan with a great idea for a new character named Felix The Cat. Here we have the gang that can't shoot straight, besides claiming of the cat at the wrong time and blissfully unaware of Sullivan's lettering throughout Feline Follies, this is a direct contradiction and must challenge the veracity of other claims in John Canemaker's Felix book, for Messmer is quoted again as saying the name Felix was coined by Mr King of Paramount Magazine...he suggested the name of Felix, which we kicked around a bit and decided this was it. Think about it, why would a distributor be naming the Sullivan studio's cat? They did not know of the strong resonance the name had with Pat Sullivan, that was the best Otto could come up with. Further information http://www.vixenmagazine.com/News.html Note ' Vixen' Australian registered Trade Mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q498UYOFxhc

Please add this link to the main article ( in some form ) & also add to the reference section as-well.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.168.240.99 (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

If Messmer created felix. Then that makes Messmeer a Racist & full blown KKK sympathizer
I think Messmers racist past' & his racist felix the cat films should be included on this page ..... If Otto Messmer is going to be portrayed as the creator of Felix the cat. Then His Racist Hatred for Black people should also be included in the over all story,of Otto messmers & felix the cat.

Felix The Cat - Uncle Tom's Crabbin (1920-1929)

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZpjeGHUimIU/hqdefault.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hilishi.com/Crabbin%27&h=360&w=480&tbnid=-bqU1nNJodi-_M:&docid=9J_kwcfTs-VlaM&ei=rew-VpW9Kai3mwWEvpiIDA&tbm=isch&ved=0CGYQMyhAMEBqFQoTCNXHtLeagMkCFajbpgodBB8GwQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.187.200 (talk) 06:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

This whole page is totally rubbish. full of Contradiction & assumptions. total re-write needed.
for example ... in the Creation section ( John cainmaker ) I mean some random person sez felix the cat was created by otto messmer & not Pat Sullivan because ( & get this ) because Pat sullivans 1917 film which is copyright protected & stored in the U.S library of congress with a march 18 1917 copy-write date stamp on it. ( & is the earliest copy of Felix the cat ) & Furthermore ... is proven to be drawn & filmed by pat sullivan. yet the likes of John cainmaker & the UN-educated editors of wikipedia claim Pat Sullivan 1917 film is just a random film about a black cat because .... ( & get this ) because the cat in Pat Sullivan 1917 film is called Thomas the cat & the film is titled " the tails of Thomas the cat. ( note the name of the film .... the 'tails' of Thomas the cat ..... tails ... asin more than one tail... as in more than one tail as he keeps loosing it .... or as in more than one tail because there are many more tails yet to come.

So lets now re-cape its claimed that otto messmer created Felix & pat sullivan did not because Pat sullivans 1917 film was about a cat called Thomas the cat.

The main page ... under creation & in other parts then goes on to say Otto messmer must have created Felix the cat because in 1919 otto messmer worked for Pat sullivan on pat sullivans film .... where Otto Messmer claims that pat sullivan just said go off a draw whatever you want do as you please ( ha ...a self serving statment' not supported by any facts )but i digress.

The main page sez & i post it here for all to read ....

'''On 9 November 1919, Master Tom, a prototype of Felix, debuted in a Paramount Pictures short entitled "Feline Follies".[7] Produced by the New York City-based animation studio owned by Pat Sullivan, the cartoon was directed by cartoonist and animator Otto Messmer. It was a success, and the Sullivan studio quickly set to work on producing another film featuring Master Tom, the Felix the Cat prototype in "The Musical Mews" (released 16 November 1919). It too proved to be successful with audiences. Otto Messmer claimed that John King of Paramount Magazine suggested the name "Felix", after the Latin words felis (cat) and felix (lucky). The name was first used for the third film starring the character, "The Adventures of Felix" (released on December 14, 1919). Pat Sullivan claimed he named Felix after Australia Felix from Australian history and literature. In 1924, animator Bill Nolan redesigned the character, making him both rounder and cuter. Felix's new looks, coupled with Messmer's character animation, brought Felix to fame.[8]

The question of who created Felix remains a matter of dispute. Sullivan stated in numerous newspaper interviews that he created Felix and did the key drawings for the character. On a visit to Australia in 1925, Sullivan told The Argus newspaper that "The idea was given to me by the sight of a cat which my wife brought to the studio one day."[9] On other occasions, he claimed that Felix had been inspired by Rudyard Kipling's "The Cat that Walked by Himself" or by his wife's love for strays.[8] Members of the Australian Cartoonist Association have claimed that lettering used in "Feline Follies" matches Sullivan's handwriting[10] and that Sullivan lettered within his drawings.[10] Sullivan's supporters also say the case is supported by his March 18, 1917 release of a cartoon short entitled "The Tail of Thomas Kat", more than two years prior to "Feline Follies". Both an Australian ABC-TV documentary screened in 2004[11] and the curators of an exhibition at the State Library of New South Wales, in 2005, suggested that Thomas Kat was a prototype or precursor of Felix. However, few details of Thomas have survived. His fur color has not been definitively established, and the surviving copyright synopsis[citation needed] for the short suggests significant differences between Thomas and the later Felix. For example, whereas the later Felix magically transforms his tail into tools and other objects, Thomas is a non-anthropomorphized cat who loses his tail in a fight with a rooster, never to recover it.''' End quote.

So here is where i get confused.

the main page/article sez that the person who created Felix the cat, is in dispute. the main page sez ...

On 9 November 1919, Master Tom, a prototype of Felix, debuted in a Paramount Pictures short entitled "Feline Follies".[7] Produced by the New York City-based animation studio owned by Pat Sullivan, the cartoon was directed by cartoonist and animator Otto Messmer.

The article then goes on to say ...

'''[10] Sullivan's supporters also say the case is supported by his March 18, 1917 release of a cartoon short entitled "The Tail of Thomas Kat", more than two years prior to "Feline Follies". Both an Australian ABC-TV documentary screened in 2004[11] and the curators of an exhibition at the State Library of New South Wales, in 2005, suggested that Thomas Kat was a prototype or precursor of Felix. However, few details of Thomas have survived. His fur color has not been definitively established, and the surviving copyright synopsis[citation needed] for the short suggests significant differences between Thomas and the later Felix. For example, whereas the later Felix magically transforms his tail into tools and other objects, Thomas is a non-anthropomorphized cat who loses his tail in a fight with a rooster, never to recover it.

So let me get this right .........

Otto messmer is portrayed as the creator of Felix the cat because he work for sullivan on the 1919 film. & On 9 November 1919, Master Tom, a prototype of Felix, debuted in a Paramount Pictures short entitled "Feline Follies".[7] Produced by the New York City-based animation studio owned by Pat Sullivan, the cartoon was directed by cartoonist and animator Otto Messmer

Yet ....

Pat Sullivan's, March 18, 1917 release of a cartoon short entitled "The Tail of Thomas Kat", more than two years prior to master tom, first appearing in "Feline Follies" in 1919, ... Is used as proof that Felix the cat was created by otto messmer on 9 November 1919 & not by pat sullivan March 18, 1917. due to the fact that pat sullivans 1917 film is about a cat called Thomas Kat ( & not a cat called Felix the cat. ) & that means Pat sullivan could not have created Felix the cat. Because in the 1917 film the cat is called Thomas the cat .... & therefore is not a precursor to Felix the cat due to it's name being Thomas the Kat & Not Felix.

I once again cite the main article as proof of this claim.

'''[10] Sullivan's supporters also say the case is supported by his March 18, 1917 release of a cartoon short entitled "The Tail of Thomas Kat", more than two years prior to "Feline Follies". Both an Australian ABC-TV documentary screened in 2004[11] and the curators of an exhibition at the State Library of New South Wales, in 2005, suggested that Thomas Kat was a prototype or precursor of Felix. However, few details of Thomas have survived. His fur color has not been definitively established, and the surviving copyright synopsis[citation needed] for the short suggests significant differences between Thomas and the later Felix. For example, whereas the later Felix magically transforms his tail into tools and other objects, Thomas is a non-anthropomorphized cat who loses his tail in a fight with a rooster, never to recover it.

The article / main page .... then goes on to say that The 1919 film is proof that otto messmer created Felix the cat & not Pat sullivan. Because in the 1919 film "Feline Follies" Otto Messmer called tha cat Master Tom ( Thomas) & therefore this proves that otto messmer must have created Felix the cat because in the 1919 film Otto Messmer claims he called tha cat Tom/thomas & not Felix. thus proving otto messmers UN-supported claims that He himself created Felix the cat & not ....Pat sullivan. All because the 1919 film feline follies is a precursor to Felix the cat because his name in feline follies is tom/Thomas.

W.T .. FUCK.

The main page/article sez ........

'''On 9 November 1919, Master Tom, a prototype of Felix, debuted in a Paramount Pictures short entitled "Feline Follies".[7] Produced by the New York City-based animation studio owned by Pat Sullivan, the cartoon was directed by cartoonist and animator Otto Messmer. It was a success, and the Sullivan studio quickly set to work on producing another film featuring Master Tom, the Felix the Cat prototype in "The Musical Mews" (released 16 November 1919). It too proved to be successful with audiences. Otto Messmer claimed that John King of Paramount Magazine suggested the name "Felix",'''

PLEASE EXPLAIN .....

How can the 1919 film support otto mesmers claims to creating Felix the cat all because the cat in the 1919 film is called thomas/tom .... thus .... supposedly proving it came before Felix did.

Then in the next sentence ..... the article goes on to say that Pat Sullivans 1917 film is of a different black & whit cat / character altogether. & is not the original felix the cat nor the/a prototype / precursor to felix the cat, as in Pat sullivans 1917 film in the U.S Library of congress is a film about a cat called Thomas/tom & is not called Felix.

News Flash ....

Both the cat in the 1917 Pat sullivan film Tails of Thomas the Kat ... & the cat in the disputed 1919 film Feline Follies are both called Thomas/tom.

So how can it be claimed that the 1919 film is a precursor to Felix because his name is tom/thomas ..... yet the 1917 film by Pat sullivan is not a precursor/prototype because his name IS thomas/tom ..... are you lot on Drugs.

This page / article needs a major re-write .... & you need to cut out the massive John cainmaker propergander in favour of Otto Messmer ... John cainmaker only edits this page in favour of otto messmer because Cainmaker is trying to protect his legacy ... cainmakers reputation is already in taters so cut out the crap & stick to that facts.

If you look at the facts you will see this page is filled with contradicting facts & way to much heresay & propaganda ... Not to mention self vested interests.

Fact is the 1917 film tails of Thomas the cat is the precursor to Felix the cat Because the 1919 film also uses the same name for the cat Thomas/tom. either thay are both early Felix films or nither are .... Meaning either Pat sullivan Created Felix the cat. By way of Proof of the 1917 film Tails Of Thomas the Kat.....

Or it again proves that pat Sullivan Created Felix the cat' by way of the Fact, Pat sullivan Dumped Otto Messmers self proclaimed creation of "Tom cat" in Felin Follies & changed the name of the cat to Felix ... Thus creating the felix the cat character after the 1919 film ( which we all know was a Pat Sullivan film anyways because feline follies used the same name as the cats name in the 1917 film. That remained unknown to Otto Messmer & John Cainmaker .... as they thought Feline follies was the first film ... but it was in fact a second /a sequel to the 1917 film. ...

So you see... either way you slice it .... Pat Sullivan will always be the one & only creator of Felix the cat & Otto messmer & John CaiMaker will always be self serving Liers & thieves.

So i say again how can the 1919 film "feline follies" & the 1917 film "tails of thomas the Kat" both have a cat called thomas/tom yet the 1917 film in claimed not to be a prototype of Felix because the cat in that film is called Thomas ... yet the 1919 film Felin follies IS a prototype because in that film tha cat IS called Thaomas/tom ....

This glaring inconsistency proves once an for all that this page is a total cock up & is nothing more that an attempt to re-write history & steal yet another Australian creation along with all the other the USA has tryed to steat from Australia. Mary Poppins, The Great Escape, the shooting down of the Red Barron ... News flash, Snoopy did not shot him down. The Manhattan project. The splitting of the atom. The creation of Penicillin The Liberation of Europe & Asia & the Pacific in WW1 & WW2. The Tank The torpedo The Invention of the Black box, the Safety Slides on planes ... the Note pad, .... So forth, So on, ect ect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Australian_inventions

Americans are always Trying to claim Aussie ideas/inventions as there own.

Like the main article sez ... American trying to claim Felix the cat is created by an American & not An Aussie .... It's just another example of American Lies, Propaganda & Thievery.

The claim "no animator outside Australia backs Sullivan" is wrong. Walt Disney worked with Sullivan' As did many other U.S animators'
Walt Disneys biography even mentions Felix the cat & pat Sullivan.long before otto mesmer was even on the scen or back from fighting in Europe during world war one. Otto messmer was not even on U.S soil at the time Pat Sullivan was working as an Animator in the USA around 1914-1918 when Felix the cat was created in 1917. ...

Pat Sullivan, an animator who had also worked with Raoul Barre, inventor of the peg system, and Henry "Hy" Mayer, a well-known cartoonist.

Pat Sullivan had been cartooning and animating for a few years by the time Messmer came to see him. Born Patrick O'Sullivan in Sydney, Australia in 1885, Pat Sullivan's early years were described as "a damned hard struggle." He had had a few comics published, and at age 20 left for London. The years there were even harder, so to make ends meet he often performed on the stage. He was not as successful there, either, and so in 1909, on a job tending mules being shipped to America, he jumped ship in New York. After a brief career in boxing, Sullivan landed a job with the McClure Newspaper Syndicate as assistant to cartoonist William F. Marriner and his Sambo and His Funny Noises strip. After Marriner's death in 1914 Sullivan continued to draw Sambo, but it was dropped by the end of the year. In 1915 he was working at one of the earliest animation studios, Raoul Barre's Animated Cartoons, Inc., where he worked with the now universal peg and cel system.

Now on his own (no longer leasing space from Universal's Fort Lee studio), Sullivan had contracts with Efanem Film Company and Edison for advertising and split-reel entertainment shorts. He animated the Sambo character, calling him Sammy Johnsin to avoid copyright infringement, and produced nine shorts between March and December 1916.

In 1916 Sullivan received a commission from Universal for a two-minute prologue to their Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea called Twenty Thousand Laughs Under the Sea. As Sullivan grew increasingly busy with business.

up until Otto messmer was drafted into the u.s forces & sent to fight in world war one in Europe, Messmer worked for Hy Mayer.

Messmer returned to work for Hy Mayer. But in early part of 1917 otto Messmer was drafted into the armed forces and fought in Europe until his return home May 28, 1919. In the meantime, Sullivan, who had been released after serving nine months, had returned to the studio and announced his return to "Cartoon Making." by late 1917 while otoo messmer was fighting a war in Europe, Pat sullivan had created a black an white cat who loses his tail .... Pat sullivan then used said cat as the bases of his next project. by the end of 1917, Sullivan had created & drawn, filmed & copy-right protected' & filed the film' Tails of thomas the cat i& it was then stored in the united states libery of congress ... All two long years before otto messmer would even return to the usa in late 1919.

And thus in 1917 by the hand of pat sullivan ... Felix the Cat born. Originally Thomas the cat, by the third film he was Felix, a combination of feline and felicity. A good-luck cat, Felix brought good luck to people in trouble, a theme upon which the series was based.

Sullivan signed a two-year contract with Famous Players-Lasky for one Felix cartoon a month.

When Adolph Zukor decided to close down Paramount Screen Magazine because it was too costly, Sullivan realized with a shock that the copyright to Felix now belonged to Famous Players-Lasky. According to Sullivan, in a drunken stupor, he went to Zukor's office and, after urinating on his desk, demanded back the rights to Felix. Disgusted, Zukor phoned his attorney and arranged the transfer.

(( Foot note )) Again all this is going on in 1917 ... & there is no mention or involvment from otto messmer beecause messmer is fighting in Europe for the last 2 years & the next 3 years untill his return in 1919. But now back ti 1917/1918

In 1921, Sullivan tried to interest Harry Warner in distributing the Felix series. While Warner was uninterested, his secretary, Margaret J. Winkler, was. On December 15, 1921, she and Sullivan signed a contract, making her the first female producer and distributor of animated films. In February of 1922 she left Warner's and set up shop as an independent distributor, with its cornerstone the Felix the Cat series. But M.J. Winkler demanded better quality from Sullivan, and got it, in the form of improvements in story, photography, and animation.

Felix Saves the Day was the first film to be distributed under the new arrangement, and by April of 1922, Winkler had created a PR bonanza, securing distribution to 60% of the country, including Canada. In 1922 Sullivan and Winkler released Felix All at Sea (May), Felix in Love (June), Felix in the Swim (July), Felix Finds a Way (August), Felix Get Revenge (September), Felix Wakes Up (September), Felix Minds the Kids (October), Felix Turns the Tide (October), Felix on the Trail (November), Felix Gets Left (December).

Despite their simple titles, the Felix cartoons were full of visual puns, imagination, and other humorous details. Felix was the first animated character that was intelligent, in that he contemplated problems and found solutions unique to the world of animation, where the impossible reigns supreme. On September 12, 1922 Winkler and Sullivan extended their contract and Winkler negotiated for international distribution through Pathe.

With a contractual obligation of double the output of 1922, the studio doubled in size, moving to 47 West 63rd Street. The studio also hired Bill Nolan, formerly of Barre's staff and considered "one of the fastest animators who ever lived." In order to save time, Nolan made changes to Felix, including rounding some of Felix's angles and eliminating his snout. The resulting kitty was more cuddly and more sympathetic and, more importantly, easier and faster to draw.

In many of his films, Felix got to spoof the movies, and in Felix in Hollywood, he is the pet of an out-of-work actor. Once in Hollywood, he ditches his owner to pursue his own career at Static Studio. Here he meets Gloria Swanson and is taught to cross his eyes by Ben Turpin. Hearing a cry of help from Douglas Fairbanks, who is being attacked by giant mosquitoes, he takes a gun from William S. Hart and kills the insects, delighting Cecil B. DeMille who signs him to a contract. At one point Felix detaches his tail and performs a pantomime of Charlie Chaplin.

The public loved him, and Felix's output continued with Felix Revolts, Felix Strikes It Rich. In 1923 he became a comic strip, running until 1943. Despite his film popularity, the strips were never as popular as the cartoons themselves, perceived as "advertising" for the films. With the release of the films in Europe through Pathe, Felix became world-famous, even hitting the music charts with 1923's song Felix Kept on Walking.

Felix continued to fly high, with his picture emblazoned on everything from stuffed cats to the side of an F-3 fighter plane. He continued his popularity throughout 1925-1928 with Felix the Cat Trips Through Toyland, Felix Trifles With Time, Felix Finds the Rainbow's End, and a parody of Chaplin in Felix the Cat in the Cold Rush, Eats Are West, Felix in Two Lips Time, Felix Shatters the Sheik, Felix Hunts the Hunter, Felix Trumps the Ace, Felix Dines and Pines, Pedigreedy, Felix Hits the Deck, Flim Flam Films, and Comicalamities.

However, as sound began to creep into films, noticeably Walt Disney's new Mickey Mouse cartoons, Sullivan hesitated, taking a "Why change?" attitude. When he finally decided to add sound to some old and new Felix films, the work was sloppy, compared to Disney who carefully analyzed, frame by frame, the marriage of sound to action. By 1931 Felix's prime had passed, replaced by a new king of cartoons and character licensing: Mickey Mouse.

Sources: The 50 Greatest Cartoons as Selected by 1,000 Animation Professionals, Jerry Beck, editor; Felix: The Twisted Tale of the World's Most Famous Cat, by John Canemaker.

So you see ...... the claim on the main page that sez & i quote.

'''Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.'''

Well the above quote is just wrong on several counts.

for a start many animators outside Australia have & do support/credit pat sullivan as the only true creator of felix the cat .... upto & including Walt Disney ( see his biography ) ... also i should point out the Hypocrisy of the above quote. I have already pointed out severy world renound animators from outside Australia have credited Sullivan as the true an only creator of felix the cat. (copyright 1917 ) including Walt Disney ....

But also the Hypocrisy of the claim that no animator outside Australia supports Pat Sullivan ..... & then have the article go on & list several animators who support Otoo Mesmers claims over Felix the cats creation in late 1919 after he returned from world war 1.

Only to leave out the fact' that all the animators listed on the main page who are said to support Otoo messmers version of events. are ALL U.S Animators.

'''Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.'''

John Cainmaker, Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon. are all U.S animators or lack any supporting evedance to back up said claim that they support Messmer ...

I would very much like to see/hear what they in-fact' do think or dont think. Given that pat sullivan created Felix in 1917 when Messmer was in Europe fighting in world war one. how do the explain that & what evedance do they have to support their views .... After all .... History will judge them & their UN-suported claims.

I know of atleat two more books being written about this topic & i can assure you the likes of John Cainmaker, Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon. will have their credibility & life works reviewed & judged in the public domain.

So if they would like to clarify their position on this mater. Before they are humiliated for being hacks, fraudsters & counterfeiters of history. & so remembered forever as being on the wrong side of the facts, of history & of the truth.

I look forward to them all putting their names to the claims made in the main article, & cant wait for them to explain the inconsistency in their, & otto messmers storys.

Pat sullivan created his first film in the usa on U.S soil in 1917. ( See U.S library of congress )

Otto messmer was fighting in ww1 on European soil' between 1916 & 1919. (( are we all meant to believe that otto messmer just left the war in Europe & popped back to the USA for a day trip where he drew felix, filmed felix. & then the next day he went back to fight the Germans in Europe for the next 3 years until he returned to the usa in mid to late 1919.

Please ..... Otto messmers story is full of holes & John Cainmaker & his cohort of U.S animators fail to provide any evidence to back up the dubious claims.

& for that reason ... this unsupported statment on the main page, '''Animation historians back Messmer's claims. Among them are Michael Barrier, Jerry Beck, Colin and Timothy Cowles, Donald Crafton, David Gerstein, Milt Gray, Mark Kausler, Leonard Maltin, and Charles Solomon.[12] No animation historians outside of Australia have argued on behalf of Sullivan.''

Should be removed ... or edited to state that NO animator outside the USA supports Messmers claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.243.183 (talk) 14:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Saturday Morning
From 1994 to 1996, Felix the Cat replaced Fido Dido on their CBS Saturday Morning bumpers on shows like Garfield & Friends.

View that link: (skip to 10:47 and ended at 12:57) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C8:C003:1DE0:58AE:44B5:EDE3:E26E (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Felix the Cat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090628135205/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_tov/ai_2419100434/ to http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_tov/ai_2419100434

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 02:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Felix the Cat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131031153900/http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/ to http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/exhibitions/felix/felix_exhibition_guide.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131031153900/http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/ to http://felix.goldenagecartoons.com/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:19, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Gave credit to someone who didn’t give a character it’s current design
It was Bill Nolan who gave Felix his current design not Joe Oriolo plus I don’t think people who have redesigned characters should be in the creator section Controlrabbit (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I cannot find a difference between the classic and modern design minus the whiskers and loner legs 2601:646:C600:D270:1C80:21D4:AB4F:F68C (talk) 06:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:22, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Felix the cat.svg

Felix from the Felix (cat food) advert - Is it the same character?
In which case the two articles should link to each other in some way. Have left a note on the other talk page too. Romomusicfan (talk) 08:27, 11 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Surely their mascot was inspired by cartoon Felix but we can't write this without a proper source. Kazachstanski nygus (talk) 17:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Italic title
Why and how is the title italicised? This is erroneous and should be changed (the page refers to a character rather than a piece of media) but I'm not exactly sure how to remove it. I can't find an ITALICTITLE or DISPLAYTITLE template in the source code so... If anyone else could change this I would be greatly appreciative! Loytra (talk) 13:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, I figured it out. 😅 The title was italicised because of a comic strip infobox deeper in the page. Disregard the previous message! Loytra (talk) 13:14, 2 February 2024 (UTC)