Talk:Felony murder rule

"Attention"
- Needs rewrite of some convoluted sentences (may do this later) - Needs more information on the nature of the "rule" - what, exactly, is it? A law, a body of law, what? Needs context info like that - Needs more information on where the rule applies - which jurisdictions? - Needs more information on history and origins of the rule - Needs more information on such things as third-degree murder. no information about third-degree murder exists at all on wikipedia, as far as i can tell

-Needs a list of all the states that recognize the federal murder rule.


 * Reactions to the unsigned comment above:


 * Copyediting is always appropriate, but hardly reason for a tag.
 * "Nature of the rule," I am not clear on what is being requested. Reference to the article :on common law might be useful.
 * Which jurisdictions? We are talking about 51 jurisdictions, few of which have rules identical to any of the others.  That's huge.
 * Origins and history is fair.
 * I don't see what Felony murder has to do with 3rd-degree murder.
 * A list of all states? That would be cumbersome, and not of much use without more details about each, since there are subtleties.
 * Robert A.West (Talk) 23:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's safe to say that all U.S. jurisdictions have felony murder as a species of murder. However, there are enough variations in the precise contours of the rule that a list of which states have which variations would cease to be encyclopedic.  Anyone interested in those details could consult the appropriate legal treatise.  --Axios023 06:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not actually true, some states (at least Hawaii, and I think also Kentucky?) have eliminated the felony murder rule or refused to officially adopt it. --Azureth 23 February 2009

Citation #11 doesn't lead to the relevant article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.30.145 (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

US Felony Murder Examples
The majority of the examples in the US section are just plain wrong. Also, the cite to fn 3 is seriously mistaken -- a brief review of 82 Cal. Rptr. 598 shows that the charges of felony murder of the manager were affirmed on appeal.

A specific example: argument that Mary will not face felony murder charges is almost as ridiculous as the contention that she won't face felony murder charges "because she surrendered to authorities." I can give much more incredible examples of a barely participating co-felon receiving felony murder charges. I'll submit a proposed rewrite in the near future. Joshua Auriemma 22:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I think an example is a good idea but the one in the article doesn't seem correct. Xenod (talk) 21:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The Texas example is wrong. Texas codifies its felony-murder rule in the Texas Penal Code Section 19.02(b)(3). 128.62.215.218 (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Mary would face felony murder charges; certainly as regards the death of the bank manager---which is pointed out as an example of felony murder in the next sentence. Even if she surrendered before any violence, she certainly didn't surrender before any death was caused.24.24.81.53 (talk) 00:26, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. An earlier version of page claimed that the manager's death wouldn't count as felony murder because the connection with the robbery was too remote.  This was later changed to say yes it would, but without modifying the statement about Mary, leaving an obvious inconsistency as you have noted.  The example could possibly be fixed by having the manager die due to a cause which was more remote from the robbery.  &mdash; Alan✉ 09:53, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Why was the example deleted by Blue-Haired Laywer without agreement on the discussion page? It was extremely informative. If it had inaccuracies, overgeneralizations, or unencyclopedic tone, that could have been fixed. By deleting the example, the article is significantly worse. I propose to re-add it.

--Cdecoro (talk) 05:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)


 * It appears to me that the removal of the example was discussed. The comments above cite numerous inaccuracies.  Those could be fixed, to be sure, but I have other concerns about the example.  If I remember correctly, the example was largely uncited and would thus appear to be original research.  If a specific example could be based on a reliable source, that would hopefully resolve many of the inaccuracies.   Verkhovensky (talk) 17:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Expansion
After thinking about the request for attention, and looking at the material available, I decided that a significant expansion is in order. I will work as quickly as I may, and will always leave the article in a usable state, but I may have to leave things a bit uglier than I would like. Feel free to help flesh out sections, or hunt down citations I haven't found yet. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I will try to finish, at least to the point that I can remove the template, by 3/16/06. Robert A.West (Talk) 02:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Death Penalty
Modified page to cross-reference separate entry I am writing regarding felony murder and the death penalty. This separate page discusses the Court's decisions in Enmund v. Florida,, and Tison v. Arizona,. ---Axios023 05:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't cite sources, but I remember a few years ago in the US a young lady was a part of a robbery. She surrendered to police quickly. Her boyfriend killed a police officer while the young lady was hand-cuffed in the back of a police car. She was subsequently convicted of felony murder. There should be a section on the abuse of the felony murder statue in the US in this article. 69.208.153.98 00:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How can it be abused? Isn't it actually abusive per se. There should be a reference on the critic and it should be elaborated. --84.153.109.182 (talk) 15:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

That young lady was Lisl Auman, and there's already a link at the bottom of the page to a story about her. Dgndenver 04:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it felony murder when the felony victim does the killing?
Consider the following scenario: John, Jane and Joe break into the home of Tom in the night with intent to rob him. Tom wakes up and hears them and confronts them with a shotgun. John responds by drawing a gun and pointing it at Tom. Tom fires (in self-defence) and kills John. The police arrive and arrest Jane and Joe.

The question is are Jane and Joe guilty of felony murder even though none of the perpetrators killed anyone? I believe the answer is yes in jurisdictions where the proximate cause theory is used. The odd, but not unjust, result is that Tom killed John, but is completely exculpated by self-defense, while none of the perpetrators killed anyone yet the surviving ones are guilty of felony murder. 128.206.79.221 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)tubaart


 * I believe one of the cases in The First 48 was such as this: during a robbery attempt, the intended victim kills one of the robbers in self defense. If I remember correctly, the surviving robbers were charged with felony murder.  Aside from special follow-up episodes, the show does not follow through prosecution, so there's no further information about whether the men were convicted. --Mr Wednesday (talk) 06:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

By Country
The By Country headline in this article can probably be removed. It only includes the United States, and the description is similar to the Description section's paragraph that details US law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HappyJake (talk • contribs) 15:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a "By jurisdiction" heading would be more descriptive? That would still be inclusive of other countries if material on them is added later.  Verkhovensky (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No vandalismo, ma informazioni con fonti sui sistemi penali italiano, francese, spagnolo e tedesco. 95.75.78.144 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Personal opinions
This isn't the place to voice one's personal opinion of the felony murder rule. Still, in this article, there are sentences that express what seem to be personal judgements. There are no attributions or citations -- just unsourced opinions. It should be corrected or deleted. If no one edits, I'll remove them in a few... ask123 (talk) 08:52, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * So someone who physically attacks someone without the intent to kill can be accused of manslaughter while someone who robs a bank and if a teller slips on the floor and hits his head and dies while fleeing in panic the perpetrator will be charged with first degree murder? Weird really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.209.13 (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's how violence escalates in a society.--24.85.68.231 (talk) 05:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

By creating a category of law called "felony murder", such implies that there can also be "misdemeanor murder." I'd like to see a definition of the latter. ;-) 71.106.164.225 (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Criminal law template
Is the Criminal Law template needed here? The Murder template seems more appropriate and specific. Also, removing the Criminal Law template will take care of the overlap between it and the jurisdictions template. Verkhovensky (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I take it back. The jurisdictions template was resized and everything looks good now!  Verkhovensky (talk) 06:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Correcting basic definition of felony murder rule
✅

The article stated: "...when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony, what might have been murder is actually relegated to manslaughter." This is incorrect. The rule actually states the opposite; under the rule, what might have been manslaughter becomes murder. Rhino79 (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is correct-- if a defendant commits a single act that simultaneously fulfills the definition of two separate offenses, merger will occur. The lesser of the two offences will drop out. Where was this located? Otr500 (talk) 20:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a year-old comment, and Rhino97 already fixed it. TJRC (talk) 23:15, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see that --thanks--. Otr500 (talk) 01:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

IANAL. However, as I understand it, the definition is still wrong. It is not always required that the offender kill anyone, just that someone dies in or as a result of the felony's commission. Police, householders (victims of the original felony) etc can kill, but the felons are in some jurisdictions still guilty of felony murder. Eg drug dealing mother is careless with cocaine, daughter eats it and dies, felony murder conviction unanimously upheld. https://www.law.com/dailyreportonline/2018/04/19/challenge-to-felony-murder-conviction-fails-in-case-of-childs-cocaine-death/?slreturn=20180326011918 2 tanners (talk) 05:30, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You're correct that the general definition should be broadened. Arllaw (talk) 15:55, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Felony murder rule is extremely controversial in U.S. but the article fails to mention that
The article fails to mention that the Felony murder rule is very controversial in the U.S. The article should address the controversy, especially as it's applied in the U.S. Outside the U.S. the rule has largely been abolished under the princinple that the individuals should be punished for their own actions in the commission of a crime not that of others. --50.152.139.176 (talk) 08:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Not really, if 46 states and the Feds use it.

BTW, that would mean four states don't have it, but only three on the list are marked 'abolished'.

So...

What is the Missing State?
73.70.250.164 (talk) 05:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

All Murder Not Felonious?
Isn't all murder a felony in the US (probably everywhere else too)? Can someone explain the difference between regular murders and felony murders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by UNSC Luke 1021 (talk • contribs) 18:29, 18 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Do self-verified administrators/users reject source-supported fixes? but wasn't wikipedia free????
 * Felony-Murder = preterintencion cfr. Cadoppi Mens rea; G. Fletcher Felony-Murder; Macallister scothland law; WEINREB Felony-Murder; etc. 95.75.78.144 (talk) 19:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

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Inclusion of examples?
Should the article include examples of the rule being applied? I'm on the fence about this, but leaning no.

An IP editor had just added Derek Chauvin as the first such example. I'm loathe to revert, although I don't think it's needed, in part because I'd previously reverted them for an unsourced addition, and I don't want to jerk them around now that they've used a source; and part because I don't feel that strongly about it.

Maybe a section (apart from jurisdictional sections) of "Notable cases of the felony rule being applied" or the like? The most prominent example of this is Bruno Hauptmann's conviction for the death of the Lindbergh baby death. (It's not dealt with in detail in the article, but because the prosecution had no evidence of premeditation, they could not seek first-degree murder, which carried the death penalty. They wanted to go the felony murder route, but, somewhat incredibly, kidnapping was only a misdemeanor under New Jersey law. They finally realized that he technically committed burglary, a felony, by breaking into the house and steeling the kid's pajama -- which just happened to have a kid in them -- and so succeeded in a murder conviction and death penalty under the felony murder doctrine. See. e.g., .) TJRC (talk) 00:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Expansion of criticism section
Don't just revert without commentary. I do not judge -- I simply note that criticism of this sort exists, and ought to be documented here. Please explain why you feel otherwise, EvergreenFir. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 05:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Non vandalismo ma correzione/integrazione
Italia: 1) https://www.gazzettaufficiale.it/atto/serie_generale/caricaArticolo?art.versione=1&art.idGruppo=56&art.flagTipoArticolo=1&art.codiceRedazionale=030U1398&art.idArticolo=584&art.idSottoArticolo=1&art.idSottoArticolo1=10&art.dataPubblicazioneGazzetta=1930-10-26&art.progressivo=0

2) Schraffl, I. (2011). Dizionario giuridico inglese-italiano: integrato con il lessico politico. Italia: Giuffrè.

3) Pagliaro, A. (2007). Il reato. Italia: Giuffrè.

4) Environmental Crime in Europe. (2017). Regno Unito: Bloomsbury Publishing.

Francia:

1) https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006417608

2) Pin, X. (2023). Droit pénal général 2024 15ed. Francia: Groupe Lefebvre Dalloz.

Germania: 1) De Vero, G. (2012). Corso di diritto penale. Italia: Giappichelli.

2) https://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2030883

Spagna:

1) Tratado de Derecho Penal. El CÁLCULO LEGAL. (2021). Messico: Editorial Arquinza S.A de C.V. 95.75.78.144 (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)