Talk:Feminism in Pakistan

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2019 and 16 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Saherdaredia.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Requesting urgent help
Hi,

Just a while ago I completed my second article on Wikipedia namely Aurat_March - a Women's Day related article. while I was amidst to make correction and review request on various Wikipedia women projects. Some one has placed speedy deletion notice on the article for perceived copyright issue.

While most of the places I have tried to write in my own language, some of the third person statements reported by news portals may still need little corrections. While personally I do not think that is a serious copyright issue which can not be dealt with little more paraphrasing. But frankly I do not know how to deal with situation. Please help me either in necessary update or help me in transferring it to my sandbox page.

Bookku (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Request of Help
I was looking for some small help. I created an article User:Bookku/Me Too movement (Pakistan) in user namespace. Article is almost ready but before taking to main namespace Looking for help in English language Spell-check, punctuation, grammar check and corrections. Using better alternative words etc. Thanks in advance.

Bookku (talk) 14:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Articles to be created

 * Draft:Shirkat gah
 * Draft:Zohra Yusuf
 * Resources
 * https://www.dawn.com/news/791480
 * https://beenasarwar.com/2013/02/13/my-years-with-waf-zohra-yusuf-on-the-pakistani-womens-movement/

Bookku (talk) 07:59, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

List of useful refs

 * Creation of Pakistan & contested Pakistan Ideology
 * https://www.kobo.com/za/en/ebook/female-pakistani-fiction-a-critical-approach
 * https://www.aiou.edu.pk/sab/gmj/GMJ%20Spring%202017/04.pdf
 * https://www.dawn.com/news/1660593/non-fiction-translating-feminism-in-urdu

Bookku (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)


 * https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/933173-women-s-achievements-highlighted-at-event-to-mark-national-women-s-day


 * Muhammad. Kaleem. Raza. Khan, ' Anti - feminism in Urdu : a study in linguistics and gender ' , Pakistan Journal of Women's Studies Alam e Niswan, Volume 1 no.2  1994 , 64-72 , 72.


 * https://www.dawn.com/news/1539139

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 08:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Ali,Naziha Syed. FOUNDING MOTHERS TO AURAT MARCH, Dawn August 2022

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 09:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

en:Draft:Urdu feminist literature
Starting new article en:Draft:Urdu feminist literature. Please add relevant information with references.

Bookku (talk) 02:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

On my re-write
Hello all. I have made a significant revision to the page, though almost all changes have been for grammatical or clarification purposes. Probably the most controversial decision I have made was to write in British English rather than Pakistani English. For a first, I do not have the knowledge to be able to write this article in that particular form of English, but I also did not see why the alternative was necessary. I am more than happy to be corrected - but I would have to delegate the task of fitting the article to Pakistani English to someone else, if that was deemed necessary. Some details have been removed for irrelevancy, most notably the large table of art, film, and literature. It was incredibly unclear to me as to why this had been included, and even if this was clarified, I am not convinced that it brings anything. Many thanks indeed to everyone who has contributed to this article so far. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what happens. Best wishes, --R. Kunz, @BloatedPotato 22:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)


 * (R. Kunz)


 * Reviewing your changes, with due respect. (I have supported few women's right movement articles, about Pakistan, namely Aurat March) then also Islamic feminism, the reason for making mention of this will follow below).
 * 1) First two lead sentences.: IMHO, The article is not about just any women's rights movement but about 'Feminist movement' and for feminist movements 'equality' is point of central focus. With your changes I am having a feeling of concern cause primacy of point of 'equality' is getting little compromised.
 * Although at first instance compromise looks marginal, it risks opening back doors further hijacking of fundamental concept of feminism itself. Since usually Muslim women rights articles on Wikipedia seem susceptible to following kind of phenomena. If you find following difficult to comprehend or agree with it's ok to not read every thing of my discourse.
 * I am not pointing out imaginary thing, already Wikipedian women handling theoretical subjects are still less than few,- If it's Muslim-Islamic unless invited on personal talk pages they watch from distance - and hardly any Muslim women around on any of wiki projects; When Muslim women's rights and feminism related articles are silently gamed not much of rescue comes for very very long times, up til now that has been my observation. History of this article or history of Islamic feminism would attest my observation.
 * Many don't understand similarities and differences between secular feminism and Islamic feminism is unknowingly mixed in many Muslim women related articles but many don't know they share point of equality. Once Islamic word is brought in there are many conservative Islamist who claim Islam provides for equality in different way (Which does not match with concept of 'equality' of original feminist thought). So when compromising content is pushed in there are very few and far between who would know these nuances and would have interest time and energy to rectify. That's why I felt concerned I shared the same with you.
 * Many don't understand similarities and differences between secular feminism and Islamic feminism is unknowingly mixed in many Muslim women related articles but many don't know they share point of equality. Once Islamic word is brought in there are many conservative Islamist who claim Islam provides for equality in different way (Which does not match with concept of 'equality' of original feminist thought). So when compromising content is pushed in there are very few and far between who would know these nuances and would have interest time and energy to rectify. That's why I felt concerned I shared the same with you.


 * 2) Like their feminist counterparts all over the world, feminists in Pakistan are supposed to seek gender equality: the right to work for equal wages, the right to equal access to health and education, and equal political rights. Wording needed to be without words "Supposed to" . I am still assessing removal of the sentence.


 * 3) The relationship between the women's movement and the Pakistani state has undergone significant shifts, from mutual accommodation and a complementary ethos to confrontation and conflict. Is this removed because lack of refs or for relevancy ? I find it to be relevant enough if refs are concern then those most likely to be available, if some one can search.
 * 4) Earlier part of sentence Pakistani woman as a cultural emblem meant to be guarded oblique their sexuality controlled New change: Pakistani woman, she argues, are expected to guard their sexuality, are controlled. The new change does not seem to catch essence of earlier sentence adequately enough.
 * 5) Earlier part According to Afiya S. Ziya the very cultural text is produced and sponsored by state, govt. and its agency.. New changed According to Afiya S. Ziya, this cultural orthodoxy is produced and sponsored by state, the government, and its agency. Here in word 'text' Afiya S. Ziya is discussing 'direct / indirect' shaping and controlling narrative. Personally I  find change to be perfectly ok enough, slight concern is later some editor may come and find some excuse to remove sentence. Usually Pakistani liberals keep sentences bit indirect to avoid getting censured or censored, since such tendency seem to exist among conservatives.
 * 6) Removal of words, consciousness, scrupulous , cultural emblem seems ok but just jotting down.
 * 7) Removal of Hudood Ordinances removes all refs to essentially negatively impacted legal history and The WAF and its associates mass demonstrated against a number of laws and issues throughout the early 1980s also seems removing part of history.


 * 8) May be 2001 did not bring immediate changes for Pakistani Women, but their status came under international focus and pressure so not sure about clubbing of subsections from 1988 to 2008 together.
 * 9) IMHO removed tables should be available on talk page for reference of other editors who might wish to write more in detail in future.


 * Thanks for supporting and improving article by taking good amount of efforts and interest. Warm regards and greetings.


 * Bookku (talk) 01:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Bookku! Thank you so much for reviewing my edits. I really appreciate the time you have taken, and the time you have taken on this page more broadly. I agree with the vast majority your points, but for clarity, shall go through each one.

2) Annoyingly, this list has to start with a point of disagreement! I chose "supposed to" to try and avoid value judgements which I thought to be inappropriate on Wikipedia. Without that phrase, a judgement has been made on both the effectiveness of the movement, but also on the fundamental purposes of the feminist movement more broadly (which is more controversial than I had imagined). However, I would support changing "supposed to" to "believe they should" if you found that satisfactory.

3) Agreed. I shall reinstate.

4) I'm not quite sure what you mean. What do you believe is lacking from the new version? This is probably my fault in failing to grasp the original sentence. Let me know what meaning you would like to emphasise and I'm sure I can fix it.

5) The word "text" was a little strange here, and I do hope that "orthodoxy" was more appropriate. I am happy to watch the page with you to make sure the new sentence is not removed, as I think both interactions are relevant to the article.

6) Indeed, good to note!

7) Apologies. Can this be fixed by adding the phrase ", also known as the Hudood Ordinances" to the relevant sentence? If so, I support that change.

8) Agreed. The only reason I removed the section was that I removed all of the text under it, which I deemed to be irrelevant. I didn't really want to leave an empty section, but would be happy to do so temporarily if new content could be added. I would be happy to fix any grammatical issues.

9) Agreed. I will do so.

Thank you so much again. Please let me know what you think. Best wishes --R. Kunz, @BloatedPotato 08:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * (R. Kunz)
 * Hello once again.
 * 4) I revisited original referenced source article of Zoya Rehman and also her scholarly source Maitrayee Chaudhuri on their concept of 'women as "cultural emblem" to analyze formation of my own perception again.
 * My understanding is, Zoya Rehman's reference to 'cultural emblem' in sentence with rest of sentence Pakistani woman as a cultural emblem meant to be guarded oblique their sexuality controlled is indicative of a nuanced 'cause and effect' relationship; cultural view to imagine women as 'cultural emblem' is a cause of one side, sexuality getting controlled is a feminism perceived effect on other side.
 * My perception is your change as of now is catching 'effect part' very well relationship of 'effect with cause' i.e. cause is being left out.
 * At this moment I am also not able to think of alternate wording even how to explain better term 'cultural emblem' used by Zoya Rehman and Maitrayee Chaudhuri. If you can do some thing to get that essence is welcome but I would not insist you to provide an immediate solution.
 * May be draft articles Draft:Aurat and Draft:Sexual politics in south Asia created by me need to develop further before we can explain concept of 'cultural emblem' better.
 * I don't know if it's really true that difference in perception in western studies and south Asian studies comes because as Maitrayee Chaudhuri claims woman in west represents nature and in South Asia as culture or Maitrayee Chaudhuri is just getting in stereotype ? I don't know, in fact past two weeks I was struggling to explain distinctness and notability of cultural identity of Draft:Aurat and many others finding difficult to comprehend. Revisiting concept of 'cultural emblem' I finding myself reassured to work more to explain 'cultural emblem' through article Draft:Aurat.


 * 7) I think so, but may be we can wait, in couple of months I wish to work on Draft:Sexual politics in south Asia and along with or there after we can revisit the article to make further improvements. At that time I will try to get in touch with you.


 * @ (R. Kunz) I really appreciate you for your for will it's willing patience to address nuances with healthy discussions and your helpful nature.
 * Thanks and regards
 * Bookku (talk) 03:04, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Media table from pre 27th June 2020
Re: a conversation with Bookku, I have inserted a table that I removed on 27th June.

Movies
In Pakistani movie's dominant narratives, most times women are sexually objectified and narrative of women being not-equal to men is reemphasized with obligation of pleasing and serving men.

Cynthia D. Ritchie
Greetings,

Wikipedia has an article Cynthia D. Ritchie, you are requested to update, expand, copy edit the article. Also you can help the same by adding the article to your watch list.

Bookku (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Sarah Peracha
You have been just advised on your talk page by another user so I would not repeat the same things again.

With due respect for your previous contributions to this article, your recent addition about Sarah Peracha does not seem to fit well in the article since Wikipedia can not be used as a promotional vehicle and needs independent reliable sources.


 * ".. Sarah Peracha publishes to encourage women of Pakistan to do business which is against the norm in Pakistan to inspire women to work. .."

You can use sources from google scholar and google books and plenty of sources are available on the topic of women's movement and feminism in Pakistan. You can seek help from Wikipedia library also. (Also credible news publications from Pakistan like Dawn, News International etc. too will do when reputed Journals and books are not available)

I hope you do not mind removal of above content from the article and look forward to your continued contribution to Women related topics on Wikipedia with independent reliable sources according to various Wikipedia norms.

&#32;Bookku, &#39;Encyclopedias &#61; expanding information &#38; knowledge&#39; (talk) 13:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)