Talk:Feminist science fiction

IP editor
An IP editor keeps deleting has now twice deleted what seems to me to be a relatively non-controversial lede sentence, which basically introduces the section. The most recent deletion (see diff) has an incomprehensible edit summary that does among other things mention me for self-referencing. It's true, I did self-reference. The IP editor had deleted material as "unreferenced" in an earlier edit (see diff). I reverted the blanking, which was not well-described by the edit summary, and then went through and cited the material that was unreferenced, and pulled the cites from other wikipedia articles. (See diff encompassing several individual edits.) I didn't add any new "self-referencing" cites; just copied from previously cited material in WP. The specific material with the reference to my cite is on Susan Wood (science fiction). I didn't add it, and it's fine with me to delete it; I think the material is adequately cited otherwise.

That's all just by way of explanation since it seems the IP editor is suggesting something faintly improper. or whatever.

But mostly I just want to document this in case the IP editor would care to discuss, or if some other editor wants to handle the issue. --Lquilter (talk) 19:22, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

-IP, 06:48, 15 January 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.133.126.85 (talk)
 * First (and later) edits: It was a removing of unsourced stuff, because it was unsourced. (Maybe the template citation needed or moving to talk page could be better, but now it's too late anyway.)
 * Frankenstein resp. "connection? (regarding Frankenstein; as women writer + SF =/= feminist SF)": A science fiction (SF) story written by a woman is not necessarily feminist science fiction. So the connection is vague. As the article doesn't claim that it's FSF, it's not wrong.
 * Self-referencing: There was no saying that it's wrong even though it might have some negative connotation. Technically anyone could self-reference and do it in a way so that others do not notice that there is a self-referencing. The mentioning simply had the reason that I don't know and don't judge whether or not it's ok with WP rules or whether or not the source is credible.
 * "Women writers have played key roles in science fiction and fantasy literature, often addressing themes of gender"
 * "writers" (plural) and "key roles" (plural, kind of judging): A story written by a woman or feminist (or man, but that's not the topic) doesn't necessarily play a key role in SF or fantasy literature. I couldn't name two women who wrote at least one story which played a key role in SF or fantasy literature. (I couldn't name a man either nor do I know events/stories which played key roles in SF or fantasy literature, but that's not the topic.)
 * "often": "often" is vague word. It could be understood/interpreted as it's used to emphasise something, or even misunderstood as "more often". As there are more women than feminists, it seems more likely that there are more normal SF stories written by woman than FSF stories wirtten by woman. So it seems more likely that something like "sometimes" is more fitting. A more neutral word - especially without any source - might be "also".
 * To sum it up: it needs some source/reference. A more neutral and more trivial way - so there should be no need for any reference - is something like "Women [also] wrote science fiction and fantasy stories, and also science fiction and fantasy stories addressing themes of gender".

Lists
WHOMEVER MADE THIS LIST:

Could we add this as a master list of sources within the page? Or should this page be more dedicated to the schools of feminist thought and the authors who contribute to them? Should we exclude novels that do not directly critique hegemonic culture, but have women and gender non-conforming leads? Just because a book has equal representation for all genders does not mean it is necessarily feminist. -Daisy --Dahlsto2 (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I moved these lists here for citing and deciding which examples are actually important to discus.


 * Hi Dahlsto2 --


 * Where did you move the lists from? The list's have got a number of canonical titles, but are missing some, and have a number of titles that are definitely not canonical.  So pruning / discussing is a good idea.  Criteria for inclusion is always hard, especially on a list of "notable" works.  So you'll have to start with a definition.  The "SF" part is going to be problematic, because of course "feminist SF" is used by some broadly as "spec fic" and by others as "science fiction".  The "feminist" is also problematic because, as you note, questions of whether depictions of a "strong female character" or "egalitarian society" are enough have been real questions.  Because Wikipedia is not presentist, my own take is to address the challenges and questions up-front, rather than making the decision and trying to justify it.  In other words, acknowledge that there are different views about this, specify which are the mainstream views, or at what points in time which views were most prominent.


 * Lastly -- I think you noted that you're a relatively new editor on Wikipedia; you might check into the Lists guidelines (especially the Manual of Style which is the most complete guidance). People have strong opinions about lists and lists are also very popular places for self-promoters to inject their opinions.


 * I'll start a note below about particular titles.


 * --Lquilter (talk) 15:22, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Examples in prose

 * Ammonite (2002) by Nicola Griffith
 * Daughters of a Coral Dawn (1984) by Katherine V. Forrest
 * A Door Into Ocean (1986) by Joan Slonczewski
 * The Female Man (1975) by Joanna Russ
 * The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) by Starhawk
 * The Gate to Women's Country (1988) by Sheri S. Tepper
 * The Handmaid's Tale (1985) and Oryx and Crake (2003) by Margaret Atwood (Canada)
 * Herland (1915) by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
 * Dreamsnake (1979) by Vonda McIntyre
 * Kindred (1979) and Parable of the Sower (1995) by Octavia Butler
 * The Left Hand of Darkness (1969) by Ursula K. Le Guin
 * Les Guérillères (1969) by Monique Wittig (France)
 * The Maerlande Chronicles (aka In the Mothers' Land) (1992) by Élisabeth Vonarburg (Canada)
 * Native Tongue (1984), The Judas Rose (1987), and Earthsong (1993), by Suzette Haden Elgin
 * Nightmare in Silicon (2007) by Colette Phair
 * Oy Pioneer! (2003) by Marleen S. Barr
 * The Ship Who Searched (1992) by Mercedes Lackey
 * The Shore of Women (1986) by Pamela Sargent
 * The Stepford Wives (1972) by Ira Levin
 * Sultana's Dream (1905) by Roquia Sakhawat Hussain (Bangladesh)
 * Walk to the End of the World (1974), Motherlines (1978), The Furies (1994) and The Conqueror's Child (1999) by Suzy McKee Charnas
 * Woman on the Edge of Time (1976) by Marge Piercy
 * The Women Men Don't See (1972) and "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" (1976) by James Tiptree, Jr.

Examples of comic books and graphic novels

 * Akiko by Mark Crilley
 * The Ballad of Halo Jones by Alan Moore and Ian Gibson (UK)
 * The Cat by Linda Fite
 * A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran
 * Doom Patrol by Rachel Pollack
 * Finder by Carla Speed McNeil
 * Hawk and Dove by Barbara Kesel
 * "Revolutionary Girl Utena" by Saito Chiho
 * Magic Knight Rayearth by Clamp (Japan)
 * Meridian by Barbara Kesel
 * Supergirl by Peter David
 * Tank Girl by Jamie Hewlett and Alan Martin
 * Tigra by Christina Z.
 * USER by Devin Grayson
 * Wonder Woman by William Moulton Marston and Elizabeth Holloway Marston
 * Y: The Last Man by Brian K. Vaughan

In film and television

 * Season of the Witch (1973)
 * The Stepford Wives (1975)
 * Wonder Woman (television series, 1975-1979)
 * Alien (1979)
 * Liquid Sky (1982)
 * Born in Flames (1983)
 * The Handmaid's Tale (1990)
 * Batman Returns (The Catwoman character in it is a feminist icon) (1992)
 * Rain Without Thunder (1993)
 * The E.Y.E.S. of Mars (1994, Japan)
 * Tank Girl (1995)
 * Xena: Warrior Princess (television series, 1995-2001)
 * Buffy the Vampire Slayer (television series, 1997-2003)

titles for particular discussion

 * prose - definite keeps

These all won awards, or have been cited repeatedly as examples, or were highly influential.


 * The Female Man (1975) by Joanna Russ
 * The Gate to Women's Country (1988) by Sheri S. Tepper
 * The Handmaid's Tale (1985) by Margaret Atwood (Canada)
 * Herland (1915) by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
 * Dreamsnake (1979) by Vonda McIntyre
 * Kindred (1979) and Parable of the Sower (1995) by Octavia Butler
 * The Left Hand of Darkness (1969) by Ursula K. Le Guin
 * Sultana's Dream (1905) by Roquia Sakhawat Hussain (Bangladesh)
 * Walk to the End of the World (1974), Motherlines (1978), The Furies (1994) and The Conqueror's Child (1999) by Suzy McKee Charnas
 * The Women Men Don't See (1972) and "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" (1976) by James Tiptree, Jr.
 * Ammonite (2002) by Nicola Griffith
 * A Door Into Ocean (1986) by Joan Slonczewski
 * Les Guérillères (1969) by Monique Wittig (France)


 * prose -- up for discussion
 * Oryx and Crake (2003) by Margaret Atwood (Canada)
 * Daughters of a Coral Dawn (1984) by Katherine V. Forrest --
 * Very typical of lesbian SF of this period, and of small lesbian / feminist press works. Useful as an example of that?  But not highly influential to mainstream, maybe? --Lquilter (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The Fifth Sacred Thing (1993) by Starhawk
 * Starhawk is not noted for her fiction. This novel (and its sequel) are sort of one-offs. This one in particular I personally loved and thought was a great example of eco-feminism; maybe it's the typical example of that? --Lquilter (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The Maerlande Chronicles (aka In the Mothers' Land) (1992) by Élisabeth Vonarburg (Canada)
 * Native Tongue (1984), The Judas Rose (1987), and Earthsong (1993), by Suzette Haden Elgin
 * The Ship Who Searched (1992) by Mercedes Lackey
 * The Shore of Women (1986) by Pamela Sargent
 * The Stepford Wives (1972) by Ira Levin
 * Woman on the Edge of Time (1976) by Marge Piercy
 * Doris Lessing's works are often frequently cited, and she's a major writer. --Lquilter (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


 * prose -- recommend pruning
 * Nightmare in Silicon (2007) by Colette Phair
 * Oy Pioneer! (2003) by Marleen S. Barr
 * Barr is notable for her SF criticism, but her novel is not per se notable as an example of feminist SF. --Lquilter (talk) 15:46, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


 * comic books & graphic novel --definitely keep


 * Wonder Woman by William Moulton Marston and Elizabeth Holloway Marston
 * Tank Girl by Jamie Hewlett and Alan Martin


 * comic / graphic -- up for discussion
 * Akiko by Mark Crilley
 * The Ballad of Halo Jones by Alan Moore and Ian Gibson (UK)
 * The Cat by Linda Fite
 * A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran
 * Doom Patrol by Rachel Pollack
 * Finder by Carla Speed McNeil
 * Hawk and Dove by Barbara Kesel
 * "Revolutionary Girl Utena" by Saito Chiho
 * Magic Knight Rayearth by Clamp (Japan)
 * Meridian by Barbara Kesel
 * Supergirl by Peter David
 * There are lots of female counterparts of male superheroes; does SuperGirl stand out more than, say, BatWoman or She-Hulk? --Lquilter (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Tigra by Christina Z.
 * USER by Devin Grayson
 * Y: The Last Man by Brian K. Vaughan
 * Good, but recent; is it truly notable and different? I have personally been wrestling with this. I liked it, but how much of it is standing out because it's a male author taking on a topic that has been covered repeatedly by numerous other women writers? Maybe that doesn't matter for the purposes of this article -- it won awards and is in the scope. --Lquilter (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Film and TV -- definitely keep
 * Wonder Woman (television series, 1975-1979)
 * Xena: Warrior Princess (television series, 1995-2001)
 * Buffy the Vampire Slayer (television series, 1997-2003)
 * Born in Flames (1983)
 * Super-limited distribution, but it did get a lot of critical attention. --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Alien (1979)


 * Note the "SF" definition problems with super-heroes, Xena, Buffy. --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Film and TV -- discussion
 * Season of the Witch (1973)
 * The Stepford Wives (1975)
 * An influential mainstream work. FWIW, Ira Levin has not been often viewed in the context of feminist SF. --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Liquid Sky (1982)
 * The Handmaid's Tale (1990)
 * not really a notable film! Is it notable just because it is a film of a notable book? --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Batman Returns (1992)
 * The Catwoman character in it is a feminist icon. -- ??
 * I'm not sure it's a feminist SF work just because it is one of the few representations on screen of CatWoman. --Lquilter (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Rain Without Thunder (1993)
 * The E.Y.E.S. of Mars (1994, Japan)
 * Tank Girl (1995)

Organization of Page
I am also working with Daisy on the organization of the page and am currently developing a section to add to the recurrent themes section. I've got a few paragraphs in the works about gender and sexuality as themes in science fiction. There is a lot that has been said about gender and am working on trying to get an adequate summary without overwhelming the article and section with information that could be pruned down into something more concise. This is the first work that I have done with wikipedia editing and look forward to more feedback as I go along! -Sanyelle SanyelleLee (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Would anyone be opposed to myself and a few other users organizing the Literature portion of the page to be in chronological order? We are attempting to add more authors and make the page easier to find info on.

--Dahlsto2 (talk) 23:41, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi Dahlsto2 -- There needs to be a considerably fuller discussion in literature. Right now, the discussion seems to be generally chronological: The early antecedents; the 19th/early 20th century; the 1920s; then the 1960s/70s. Is this part of your "list" proposal (above), which I think is good? or is this meant to be something separate? If the latter, I think it's difficult to have a discussion that is strictly chronological; that's more of a list approach.

setting up talk archives
Since there is some dedicated energy to working on the page (welcome Dahlsto2 & collaborators), I thought it would be helpful to clear away the old discussions. Accordingly I set up a talk archive (see the archive box near the top of the page). Quick note about talk page protocol: Generally you start new threads at the bottom of the page. Cheers, Lquilter (talk) 15:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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Exclude Frankenstein
Excluding Frankenstein from this list as it does not overtly push feminist ideas. A women writer does not by default result in feminist fiction.

If Frankenstein pushes feminist ideas, please list them here. If none, other than woman author in a typically male author genre, then it is not feminist fiction.

Failing to include overt descriptions of sexuality in act or bodily description in the monster would be normal for 1800s fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:D591:5F10:3C12:5EA9:492E:F031 (talk) 06:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

No mention of James H. Schmitz' 1968 novel The Demon Breed?
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this article, and I strongly recommend that we add to it mention of one of the very first science fiction authors to present women as equals to men, James H. Schmitz. Although known most widely for the silly Witches of Karres novel, that was not his best work. Not even his most famous character (Telzey Amberdon and friends) belongs in this article, but the article absolutely ought to include Nyles Etland from Schmitz' The Demon Breed, and possibly the females in a couple other of his novels. Schmitz specialized in strong female characters, but the Nyles Etland character in The Demon Breed was ultra-competent and represents to this day what every woman can strive to be. And he wrote it in 1968. The Demon Breed (aka The Tuvela) is probably his least known story because in order to read it, one must learn about the complex environment of the planet on which it takes place. Nyles Etland had no special advantages such as psionic powers. It was her intelligence and intimate knowledge of her home environment, as well as of science, and of another person involved, that allowed the Nyles Etland character to defeat an alien invasion. In my opinion, the gender of the author is not the point here--but the theme of feminist equality is--and by this theme, Schmitz should be included here. The Demon Breed, and all the other stories by Schmitz, precede James Tiptree Jr's ultra-feminist "The Women Men Don't See" (and all her other writings) by several years. Harborsparrow (talk) 15:04, 14 December 2023 (UTC)