Talk:Ferdinand Magellan

List of other survivors.
Indigenous people: Juan Cermeño, Francisco (slave), Manuel, interested in the value of the currency and the price of pepper. and the price of pepper, so the three are forbidden to leave Spain.

Island of Santiago (Cape Verde) 9th July 1522, 12 men were retained, on the 14th Elcano set sail.

List of detainees:
 * Martín Méndez, secretary of the fleet.
 * Pedro de Tolosa, storekeeper.
 * Richard de Lombardía, carpenter.
 * Roland de Argate, gunner.
 * Simón de Burgos, constable.
 * Juan and Pedro Martín, supernumeraries.
 * Sailors: Felipe de Rodas, Gómez Hernández, Bocacho Alonso, and Pedro de Chinduza.
 * and Pedro de Chinduza.
 * Cabin boy, Pasquito.

They returned weeks later to Seville via Lisbon.

Previously there was another group of 5 crew members from the Nao Trinidad, prisoners of the Portuguese at El Maluco. They returned in 1525-26 in 1525-26:
 * León Pancaldo, pilot.
 * Gonzalo Gómez de Espinosa, constable.
 * Hans Berguen, artilleryman.
 * Juan Rodriguez "the deaf", sailor.
 * Jinés de Mafra, sailor.

Berguen died shortly after they all arrived at the Lisbon prison of Minoeiro. of Minoeiro.

This is the list of the survivors who returned to Sanlúcar after their round-the-world trip:


 * Name Position
 * Juan Sebastián Elcano, from Guetaria Captain
 * Francisco Albo, from Axio (Greece)22 Pilot
 * Miguel de Rodas, from Rhodes (Greece) Pilot
 * Juan de Acurio, from Bermeo Pilot
 * Antonio Lombardo Pigafetta, of Vicenza (Italy) Outstanding
 * Martín de Yudícibus, of Savona (Italy) Mariner
 * Hernando de Bustamante, from Mérida Sailor and barber
 * Nicolas the Greek, of Nafplio (Greece) Seaman
 * Miguel Sanchez de Rodas, of Rhodes (Greece) Seaman
 * Antonio Hernández Colmenero, from Ayamonte (Ayamonte) Seaman
 * Francisco Rodríguez, from Seville (Portugal) Sailor
 * Juan Rodríguez, from Huelva Seaman
 * Diego Carmena Gallego, from Bayonne Sailor
 * Hans, from Aachen (Germany) Artilleryman
 * Juan de Arratia, from Bilbao Cabin boy
 * Vasco Gómez Gallego el Portugués, from Bayonne Cabin boy
 * Juan de Santander,23, from Cueto Cabin boy
 * Juan de Zubileta, from Baracaldo Pageboy
 * Juan Griego (Greek) from the Napoli di Romania (Nauplio).

Fernando de Magallanes - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre Jcollmart (talk) 18:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * We would need reliable sources to add those names, and I do not see sources cited for more than two of those men in the Spanish Wikipedia article (and I have not evaluated the usefulness of those sources). - Donald Albury 18:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * La 2 fuente está igualmente abriendo la página de Wikipedia, cambiar idioma a Español y allí escribir "Fernando de Magallanes", una vez abierto poner traductor a English en EL NAVEGADOR QUE USE, NO EN LA WIKIPEDIA. Jcollmart (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia, in any language, is not a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources and es:Wikipedia:Fuentes fiables. - Donald Albury 20:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
 * La primera vuelta al mundo: el brutal viaje de Magallanes y Elcano hace 500 años en el que solo sobrevivieron 18 de los 250 tripulantes - BBC News Mundo Jcollmart (talk) 15:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you want to use that source for? There are enough English language sources available to eliminate any need for sources in other languages, unless a non-English source is the only available source for some important detail that participating editors feel must be included in the article. I doubt that an item published by the BBC in Spanish would contain any information that is not already available in English-language sources. As for the list of names you added above earlier, I personally see no purpose in listing all of the survivors of the expedition. How would listing their names help readers of the article understand the subject? - Donald Albury 17:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It helps to know the story: the survivors traveled 24 hours a day on the ship's deck while Magellan had a cabin in the hold. They ate, slept and worked through sun, rain and storms. They made the same voyage and most of them came from the European continent.
 * So their merit is greater than that of the "protagonist".
 * But if you think it does not contribute anything you can delete what you consider "for your status in Wiki, not for your reason". Jcollmart (talk) 08:59, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see Victim lists. While that essay is about victims, rather than survivors, I think similar reasoning applies. I will not edit war with you, but do not be surprised if other editors also object to you adding a list of unnotable names to the article. Donald Albury 15:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * These are extremely notable names. In particular, I was just now trying to find the list of survivors from the Trinidad who would've been the 2nd set of circumnavigators and might've made notable appearances in subsequent Spanish missions like Hans of Aachen did for both Loaisa's and Villalobos's. The list just needs to be sourced and belongs at List of circumnavigators or Magellan Expedition and not here. — Llywelyn II   17:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Not the first
The first who circumnavigated the world was Mangelan's helper (slave?) from the Moluccas.


 * While possible, there is no evidence that Enrique completed a circumnavigation. He was from Malacca, or perhaps Sumatra, and he disappears from the historical record after the banquet in the Philippines. It's conceivable that he made the last lag of the voyage from the Philippines to Sumatra and/or Malacca. But since it is not documented, it is a matter of speculation. The first documented circumnavigators are Elcano and the other 17 survivors of the Armada de Molucca. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlyra (talk • contribs) 04:16, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Place of birth
Sources seem to conflict on Magellan's birth place, with this page currently stating Sabrosa, but the Portuguese Wikipedia saying Ponte da Barca or Porto. Is there a consensus on either? HapHaxion (talk / contribs) 14:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)


 * There doesn't seem to be a consensus but Joyner has a pretty good explanation for the confusion. There was a will filed in 1504 by a "Ferdinand Magellan" that indicated his birthplace was Sabrosa. But doubt has been cast on this document-the Portuguese Wikipedia calls it a forgery and Joyner says it was likely a different person (the name was relatively common and several people were at court with the same name). Meanwhile, many authors since the nineteenth century have used Sabrosa and the birthplace continues to be used in some (but not all) sources, including Bergreen. A more cautious statement might be born somewhere in northern Portugal, possibly Porto or Sabrosa. Glendoremus (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Glendoremus Here is what Fernández-Armesto says about the place of Magellan's birth in his new biography of Magellan (Straits: Beyond the Myth of Magellan, 2022): "Whenever Magellan had to respond to such requests -requests by bureaucracies for his place of birth-, he called himself a native of Oporto" (p. 31). So it seems that Magellan himself said that he was born in Oporto. As for that document that people cite to claim he was born in Sabrosa (Magellan's alleged 1504 will) here's what Fernández-Armesto says about that: "A great Portuguese historian, António Baião, impugned the authenticity of the document in 1922, chiefly on the grounds: first, indecisively, that it exists only in a purported eighteenth-century copy; second, suggestively but inconclusively, that not everyone named in it is not attested in other sources; and third, and obviously fallaciously, that it is very different from a well-authenticated will Magellen made in 1519. The property is no longer (notwithstanding antiquarians' claims to have identified it), but the name suggests a modest holding in a rural, wooded location, such as bristle over the hills around the little town. In any case, whether genuine or not, the document says nothing about Magellan's birthplace." So apparently that document doesn't say anything about where Magellan was born regardless of whether it is genuine or not. So I think the article should list his birthplace as Oporto since Magellan himself says he was born there. 151.203.80.156 (talk) 05:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @151.203.80.156 Sorry I forgot to write the page citation for the second quotation. It was from pages 31-32 of Fernández-Armesto's biography of Magellan 151.203.80.156 (talk) 05:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2023
For the Secondary sources of the Further reading section, someone forgot to put a refend thing. 2600:8800:590E:BB00:E860:2D74:94F1:B45B (talk) 01:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅  Heart  (talk) 02:01, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for flagging this. Have also removed the 11 year old semi-protection, so you can now edit the article directly if you wish. Let's see how it goes, can easily be reapplied if IP vandalism resumes. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

His death
Magellan's death at the Battle of Mactan is mentioned five times in the article: twice in the lead (2nd and 4th paragraphs, in the Voyage section (7th paragraph), the Death section, and in the Reputation following circumnavigation section (4th paragraph). The Battle of Mactan is mentioned five of six times (with three of them linked to the article), and details of the battle are given in both the Voyage section and the Death section. I think that is a bit disorganized and can be tightened up. In particular, covering his death twice in the lead is a problem. I may come back to this in a few days and take a stab at cleaning it up. Donald Albury 13:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Agree. Removed the double mention in the lead. Wladimir Lyra (talk) 07:43, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I had forgotten about this (i'm glad I said "may"). Thanks for taking it on. Donald Albury 13:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Nationality
After renouncing his Portuguese nationality in 1517, he adopted the Spanish one, yet the article makes no mention of this. Shouldn't this be noted? Alvarocoras10 (talk) 01:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Provide us with a reliable source for that, and it can be added to the article. I think the article does make it clear that he switched his allegiance to the Spanish crown after falling out of favor in Portugal. Donald Albury 14:50, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Charles
There was never a king named Charles in Spain. Freiherr (talk) 21:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)


 * "Carlos" is commonly rendered as "Charles" in English sources. Per the policy on article names, we have Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (Charles I of Spain), Charles II of Spain, Charles III of Spain, and Charles IV of Spain. Donald Albury 11:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Date of Birth
Historian Felipe Felipe Fernández-Armesto's new biography of Magellan (Straits: Beyond the Myth of Magellan, 2022) says "No surviving document records Magellan's birth: that is not unusual for the time and place. The assertion that it happened in or about 1480 is a persistent feature of traditions about him, the authors of which copy each other. It seems to have spread in books like red rot: no good evidence supports it. In view of the chronology of the rest of his life, Magellan is unlikely to have been born before the midpoint of the decade." (p. 33) So maybe the date of birth should be changed to c. 1485? There should be a note at least explaining the issue and stating Fernández-Armesto's date. 151.203.80.156 (talk) 05:22, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Magalhães to Magellanus
How did MagAlhães end up rendered as MagEllanus in Latin? Does this surname refer to a town that was already in existence in the antiquity? 195.187.108.130 (talk) 14:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Sodomy trial and execution of Antonio Salomon
In the section "Voyage", the first two sentences are

"The fleet left Spain on 20 September 1519, sailing west across the Atlantic toward South America. In December, they made landfall at Rio de Janeiro, where Magellan ordered the death penalty against two of his crew members who he deemed had a homosexual relationship."

This constitutes a contextless and abrupt transition. Nothing else about the two weeks long stay at present day Rio de Janeiro is mentioned, or their previous arrival, two weeks earlier, at Cabo Santo Agostinho, near present day Recife. The sentence is also factually incorrect. First, Rio did not exist yet, it was founded only in 1565, over 45 years after Magellan's sojourn. Second, it wasn't two members who were executed, it was only one. Third, the sentence implies the punishment of a gay relationship between two consenting adults, when in fact what transpired, according to the source cited, was the rape of a minor. The reference given is "Fernández-Armesto, Felipe (2022). Straits: Beyond the Myth of Magellan. Bloomsbury Publishing." The book in question states, on page 140:

"On October 30, Antonio Salomon, master of the Victoria, was arraigned for sodomy with a cabin boy. He was found guilty, but a stay of execution, granted for an unknown reason, for nearly two months, until he became the expedition's first fatal casualty -- garroted on the shore at Rio de Janeiro."

The wiki on the voyage itself is more explanatory, citing multiple sources. The sentenced should be changed to something along the lines of

"In late November, they made landfall at Cabo Santo Agostinho, near present day Recife. The Tupi natives, having already engaged with Portuguese and French loggers, were familiar with Europeans, and the encounter was cordial. In December, they arrived at Guanabara Bay, the location of present-day Rio de Janeiro. Magellan and the crew stayed onshore for two weeks, replenishing their provisions and peacefully interacting with the locals. Despite the pleasantries, the first fatal casualty of the expedition occurred. Two months earlier, during the Atlantic crossing, a member of the crew, Antonio Salomon, was caught raping a cabin boy. Tried and found guilty, he was garroted two months later on the shore of Guanabara Bay." Wlyra (talk) 05:15, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

First documented Pacific Ocean crossing
The box said "First European Pacific Ocean crossing". This implies that there has been other Pacific ocean crossings. As far as we know, that's not the case. There has been speculation of Polynesians landing in South America (see Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories), but no definite proof. A better description is first documented crossing of the Pacific. Change made accordingly. Also added known for naming the Pacific. Wladimir Lyra (talk) 03:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)