Talk:Fermentation/Archive 1

Untitled
Hi America I love editing theses papers.

Photo Change
The photo for this section is better suited for the discussion of food (I think it is bread rising). perhaps a better illustration can be found for this article that focues on the molecular chemistry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Falztobias (talk • contribs) 21:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Enzymology vs. Zymology
Hasn't enzymology taken on a much broader meaning than just "yeast oriented fermentation"? I have always heard it used as the study of enzymes as a whole, while zymurgy/zymology is definitely the science of yeast related fermentation. Any thoughts on this?74.130.23.77 00:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Most definitely.

This sentence from the article: "Enzymology is the scientific term for FU yeast-oriented fermentation. It deals with the biochemical processes involved in fermentation, with yeast selection and physiology, and with the practical issues of brewing. Enzymology is occasionally known as zymology or zymurgy." should be rewritten to make zymology a subset of enzymology, and probably link out to an article on Enzymology.

Modern enzymology is a complex field serviced by it's own protocol journal for decades, Methods in Enzymology (which also has a Wikipedia entry). Enzymology describes isolating enzymes, purifying enzymes, proteomics of enzymes (including studying their activity sites and other molecular biology level interactions with their substrates), thermodynamics of enzymes (of how enzymes enhance chemical reactions), as well as assays to characterize enzyme's chemical activity (see Michaelis-Menten equations). There doesn't appear to be an Enzymology article in Wikipedia, but the Enzyme article seems to cover most of these points, so linking there would be appropriate for now. --140.139.35.250 (talk) 21:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge with anaerobic respiration
It may be appropriate to merge this article with anaerobic respiration. In its role as the biochemistry of fermentation this article requires more reference to the actual reactions involved within anaerobic respiration, and comparison to the biochemical processes of aerobic respiration.

I propose a merge, and migration to, anaerobic respiration. The biochemistry of fermentation is anaerobic respiration of sugars to ethanol. Zephyris Talk 13:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This topic has been discussed on the anaerobic respiration talk page, with the consensus a merge would be inappropriate. The merge tag will be removed as per this discussion. - Zephyris Talk 00:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Somebody vandalised this article with some rubbish about monkeys - I tried getting rid of it but I can't see it in the edit window.
 * That's because by the time you hit the edit button, the vandalism had already been removed. Wiki is great that way. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  03:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Somebody wrote some off the point stuff at "heterolactic fermentation"
 * "#heterolactic fermentation is the production of lactic acid as well as other acids and alcohols Fermentation is when John and his mother do not like each other, they killed and dead."

I deleted the stuff after: "- as other acids and alcohols"

Split from fermentation
The original Fermentation article mixed together information about food fermentation and biochemical fermentation and so I created this article to seperate that. I also made a few edits. There were a couple sentences that suggested that lactic acid is the cause of acute muscle soreness so I deleted one of those sentences and I added on the other to clarify that it is actually due to ATP-derived hydrogen ions. Then there was another section that suggested that it was believed muscle soreness was due to lactic acid and that it is actually due to microscopic tears in the muscle fibers. This is only partially true and therefore I edited it for clarity. Microscopic tears in the muscle fibers are responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness but acute muscle soreness is due to ATP-derived hydrogen ions. This article is greatly in need of citations though. Jamesters 20:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

To Ww2cencor, you have already put up a tag to suggest merging this with in the main Fermentation article within an hour of creating this article. That was before I even got a chance to convert the main Fermentation article into a disambiuation page. So really what would be merged now is this article along with the Fermentation (food) article and possibly the Industrial fermentation article as well. In the history of this article's page you said "most of this is duplication of the other article". This is because the previous Fermentation article was horribly organized. I practically just took the sections related to food and created an article for that, and tookthe sections related to biochemistry and created an article for that. It was an attempt to better organize them and I feel as though they do deserve their own article just as Industrial fermentation does. I'm hoping for at least some decent discussion about this before it is decided to be immediately merged back to what it was. And even if it is, my edits to do with lactic acid and all that should be applied and it should be reconstructed to better organization rather than just converting what the main Fermentation article was before I converted it to a disambiguation page. Jamesters 21:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I just noticed this split. I have rearranged the structure of this article while preserving the content. However, it seems that there is a lot of interchangable terminology flying around.  It needs to be consistent.  cellular respiration, oxidative phosphorylation and aerobic glycolysis seem to be used as equivalents.  Anaerobic glycolysis seems to be used whjich is bizarre since this is about fermentation.  Why not use the word in the title? I have placed a few citations required markers.  The one that worries me the most is the ATP derived hydrogen ions?  Where is that research published.  i am having trouble thinking of a mechanism for this. i have left it in the article for now and will do a pubmed search for the research.  If I come up with nothing i will remove that hypothesis from the article. David D. (Talk) 16:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the terminology. It is pretty confusing for students who are trying to establish the proper concepts about fermentation and the precise processes involved. For example, the article starts off by distinguishing fermentation from glycolysis in that fermentation is needed to maintain glycolysis, which is the process that actually produces ATP, but later on, it seems that fermentation itself produces energy. And isn't the process of glycolysis the same under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions? I hope someone with more knowledge on this subject than I clears this up. Unregistered (Talk)

Revert 2002.01.30
I reverted this paged to a previous version after vandalism. Furthermore I removed the following from the history-section:

-   - C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2 - sugar -> ethanol + carbonic gas - was established by Gay-Lussac in 1815 [V6]. Pasteur found in 1857 that microorganisms (yeasts) were responsible for the reaction. The alcohol created is ethanol (or ethylic alcohol, figure 2). -   - Sugars involved are glucose and fructose (figure 3). Both are fermentable (they can be used by yeasts for fermentation) and they share the same formula (C6H12O6). -   -    - Fructose and glucose [B1] - This reaction is interesting for drunkards as it gives alcohol but it is of little interest to the yeast as it brings in 15 times less energy than respiration per molecule of sugar: -   - C6H12O6 + 6 O2 → 6 H2O + 6 CO2 - sugar + oxygen -> water + carbon. gas - In presence of oxygen (O2), the yeast will choose an aerobic mode (use of oxygen) rather than fermentation (anaerobic - without oxygen). -   - Steps of fermentation [B1] - The figure below shows the main steps of fermentation (a complete chart can be found page 189 in V6). The reaction can be written in a more complete way [V6] : -   - C6H12O6 + 2 ADP + 4 H+ + 2 HPO42- → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2 + 2 ATP + 2 H2O -   - ATP (adenosine triphosphate) is the « battery » of yeast. The transformation of ADP (adenosine diphosphate) into ATP corresponds to « charging its batteries ». The reverse transformation is using the energy of these batteries. In order to initiate fermentation, the yeast must use 2 ATP per molecule of sugar. It will get them back just before the formation of pyruvate. At the end of the reaction, it will get 2 ATP. It is therefore necessary to invest 2 ATP in the first place to double the outlay: if the yeast is too weak when the fermentation starts, it will have a hard time starting the reaction and getting energy. Hence the interest of a good hydration and the use of a starter to avoid demanding that yeasts, already too weak, ferment sugar.

It's relevant enough, but perhaps in a more specialized article? I'll leave it for others to judge. -- Danielle dk 10:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Fermentation (food)
G'day, I've started a discussion about this at Talk:Fermentation (food). Webaware talk 05:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraph
The first paragraph seems to have been written in a hurry judging from the short choppy sentences. Also, why is the definition of Fermentation in the middle of it? Any thoughts? FEVB 20:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A definition says fermentation is an energy-yielding metabolic pathway with no net change in the oxidation state of the products when compared to the substrates. Is it correct to define fermentation as an oxidation of organic compounds? —Preceding unsigned comment added by HelvinKenry (talk • contribs) 14:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

mistake in reaction
Fermentation is ANEROBIC reaction. The equation that is written in this article in Wikipedia is AEROBIC. do you think that bacteria are stupid and would do fermentation if there is oxygen around? I have no time to fix it, but whoever started this article, should look at the molecular biology or biochemistry books for the right reaction equation. look for example at that page: http://www.kcpc.usyd.edu.au/discovery/9.2.3-short/images/Fermentation.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by M gerzon (talk • contribs) 19:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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Stages in the fermentation
It would be a better article if it were combined with the stages of glycolysis. I really don't have the ability to write it myself but if someone else has it would do a great thing for the understanding of fermentation.

--KrDa (talk) 10:49, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Lactic acid fermentation
I'm not an expert, but I know Lactococcus lactis doing heterolactic acid fermentation in an anaerobic environment produces both ethanol and acetate. The section also indirectly says fermentation is a respiration process: "Homolactic acid fermentation is unique because it is one of the only respiration processes...". Jesper F (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC).

Changes to introduction
I started reorganizing the introduction by moving together sentences on the some topics and breaking it into multiple paragraphs. It still needs some work. I plan to come back to it soon. Siegele (talk) 06:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The "but" and "to create lactic acid" in "The process is often used to produce wine (see fermentation in winemaking) and beer, but fermentation is also employed in preservation to create lactic acid in sour foods such as pickled cucumbers, kimchi and yogurt (see fermentation in food processing)" did not make sense, so I changed this sentence. --BB12 (talk) 01:18, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move. The disambig page and its history will be moved to Fermentation (disambiguation). Cúchullain t/ c 20:52, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Fermentation (biochemistry) → Fermentation – Or something similar. According to our disambiguation page, fermentation, at Wikipedia every instance of fermentation is treated as if it were a distinct thing sharing a name with all the others. It shoud be made clearer that fermentation in biochemistry is not just one kind of fermentation, but just is fermentation. This move will also require moving the current article at the destination to Fermentation (disambiguation). I have also proposed moves at Talk:Fermentation (food) and Talk:Fermentation (wine). I have not made this a multi-page request because I believe the rationale stands on its own for each. Srnec (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * As a wine-lover I cannot help but support this a well as the other moves proposed. Fermentation is the process; food and wine are simply things to which it is applied as a form of preparation. We cook food over fire, but don't put Fire (food) as a topic apart. DeistCosmos (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support a move to fermentation per nom and a deletion of the "disambiguation" page as well as the other two related proposed moves. These articles should receive prominent mention in the intro, though.  —  AjaxSmack   04:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as super logical. Red Slash 01:58, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Comment this article was carved out of in 2006 -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 01:34, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment if this page is moved then the current "fermentation" needs to be moved as well, for attribution purposes. (say to fermentation (fermentation), which is a fairly safe location, unlikely to be overwritten accidentally) -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 09:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Read the proposal. Srnec (talk) 16:32, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the disambiguation page, though, the history prior to the disambiguation should probably be split off, since it isn't disambiguation. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 23:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Or a histmerge might be in order. —  AjaxSmack  04:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Orphaned references in Fermentation
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Fermentation's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "fao1": From Commercial sorghum:  From Lactic acid fermentation:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

"Impurities" mentioned in the first photo caption?
The first photo caption mentions "impurities", but I have no idea why. The caption says, "Impurities formed by CO2 gas bubbles and fermenting material." This implies that the photo depicts "impurities". It also implies that the impurities are "formed by CO2", but CO2 is fairly inert and probably is not forming anything. I am going to change the caption, you can change it back if you can explain why it makes sense. Fluoborate (talk) 14:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Water and heat info missing
The equations in the article are written for dry and cold substances. Fermentation needs proper amount of water and heat. Sugar solutions in water exist, but how much water and sugar is necessary for fermentation? (This is briefly mentioned in Winemaking) It would also be a good idea to add the information about the energy produced or used in the reactions.

If you take the number of moles of each substance mentioned on the left side of the glycolysis equation, then you get the number of moles of the substances on the right therein as follows:


 * " C6H12O6 + 2 NAD+ + 2 ADP + 2 Pi → 2 CH3COCOO− + 2 NADH + 2 ATP + 2 H2O + 2H+ "

The equation in the ethanol fermentation section is simplified to the following equation:
 * " C6H12O6 → 2 C2H5OH + 2 CO2 "

However, it is not explained how much heat in kJ or kcal is used or produced in those reactions. The information is not available either in the articles on ATP and NADH which are supposed to give some enlightment according to the links. So, will you warm your hands if you touch a demijohn or should you rather embrace it and give it your warmth to make it work? The energetic aspect is important. If fermentation contiues to produce acetic acid and finally carbon dioxide, will one heat up the building or cool it down? C. Trifle (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

vignesh endra vindhu dappa vaayan
Does this make any sense to anyone? It's literally the first sentence of the article. 79.183.123.101 (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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