Talk:Fettuccine Alfredo

Fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro aren't the same dish
From Italian to read that the fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro are the same thing is bad. "Fettuccine Alfredo" originated in Italy, but over time the Americans have Americanised it by adding random ingredients (e.g. chicken), ignoring the right combinations of flavours (for people with a food culture, chicken on pasta isn't a respectable combination), as unfortunately they still do very often, and now there is no longer an Italian dish called "fettuccine Alfredo" (except for only two Italian restaurants that still prepare it). In Italy we have a pasta dish called "pasta al burro", but it isn't the same as "fettuccine Alfredo"; they're two different dishes, although quite similar. I propose deleting the "or fettuccine al burro" phrase (in the second line). JacktheBrown (talk) 22:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course the modern versions of Italian traditional food are “only” 70 years old, but the basis of the recipes date centuries ago and the evolution is a direct consequence of 1) progress 2) wealth and aboundance 3) growing affordability of sophisticated food by the masses. Let me give you an example: green olives from Ascoli Piceno are famous from the Roman times (as we can tell from mentions from Cato, Marziale and many other classic Roman writers). Around 1600 people started stuffing them with herbs (onions, carrots, leek…cheap stuffing). Around 1800 the stuffing started including mixed meat (pork, beef, veal and some cheese and nutmeg): the leftovers from rich families’ banquets. In 1875 the production bacame industrial (Mariano Mazzocchi production, who also started the first marketing of the product). Around the late 1950s, with the progressive growth in wealth of Italy, the recipe started making its way into households and morphed even further, including parmisan. Nowadays you can find them fish stuffed or even a full vegan version." JacktheBrown (talk) 19:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Dishes have variations and can evolve but still have the same name. To say you can't add chicken to a pasta dish is the worst kind of pedantry – it's one of my favorites whether it's common in Italy or not! This kind of food purism often has little basis in history and I'd suggest reading . Perhaps the intro could be worded differently to indicate that the names don't proscribe just a single universal recipe but there's no need to excise this nomenclature, and the article should describe them together with a description of how they are served. Fettuccine al burro redirects here since it's a legitimate name, and covering close concepts in a single article as such is the most appropriate. It's still an Italian dish, even if "Alfredo" is less used there and Americans often add cream. Reywas92Talk 01:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * regarding the (gravely biased, and therefore 100% unreliable) newspaper article you sent me, I quote here a user's reply within this post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/financial-times_everything-i-an-italian-thought-i-knew-activity-7045303339403608064-HB23; "The professor is just a sensationalist who made up a catchy title for his podcast just to publish on an international paper. He’s vastly (and rightfully) ignored in Italy.


 * I said that, for people with a food culture, it isn't a respectable combination; I don't want to list the reasons here (if you like to eat it, I'm happy for you). Americans have their strengths, such as cinema, just as we have ours, such as cuisine, so if we Italians say that, for people with a food culture, it isn't a respectable combination, we're very reliable. Anyway, let's go back to the original topic, which isn't that. JacktheBrown (talk) 01:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , you have been an editor long enough to know quite well that your personal opinion is utterly irrelevant on Wikipedia and that a statement like   constitutes Original research which is forbidden on Wikipedia. Who appointed you the spokesperson for "we Italians"? Hundreds of millions of people worldwide frequently eat chicken and pasta dishes without being poisoned or vomiting, so your objectivity in this matter is in question. All that matters is what reliable sources say, not what anonymous Wikipedia editors say. You know this. Cullen328 (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The article describes the closely related fettuccine al burro and fettucine Alfredo, both invented in and still served in Italy. It is objectively correct to say it's Italian cuisine, and then we can say the heavier recipe with cream is an American variant. Just because your nonna makes it a certain way doesn't mean this can't say how these recipes are related. Reywas92Talk 02:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The point is: nobody (or their nonna) makes "Fettuccine Alfredo" in Italy. It really doesn't exit outside of the restaurants that sell this supposed Italian "dish" to tourists (see Gambero Rosso article here). A savvy waiter may offer it up if asked, and at least one Roman restaurant offers "Fettuccine Alfredo" variants with truffles and/or caviar, but that's about as far as it goes. Elsewhere, it is just what you feed to children and convalescents, and it is not referred to as "Alfredo" anything. (Also, in my view, an Italian editor sharing local knowledge on an article's Talk page does not seem like a violation of WP:OR policy. Whist we can all probably agree that simply saying: "I'm Italian" doesn't necessarily make someone an expert, the project as a whole does does benefit greatly from local knowledge.) -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * exactly. As an Italian I cannot express my culinary knowledge, because I risk, as has already happened here, being labeled, without any respect for myself or for any other Italian, as "original research"; it's clear that I, as an Italian (and as a very important contributor to the encyclopedia of topics concerning Italian cuisine), know much more about the cuisine of my country than an American. Since when did Wikipedia become a place where only Americans can speak?. Wikipedia isn't the Nazi Germany, Wikipedia is a MAGNIFICENT place; let's try not to ruin this very beautiful environment. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , you are not a reliable source just as I am not a reliable source. The role of Wikipedia editors and the purpose of Wikipedia talk pages is to identify, evaluate and summarize what reliable sources say about a topic. Literally nobody said or implied that only Americans can speak here. But you need to follow policies and guidelines just like every other editor. Cullen328 (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * if we're all on the same level in this encyclopaedia, I'm happy. Thank you for your comment. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Re "ignoring the right combinations of flavours (for people with a food culture, chicken on pasta isn't a respectable combination)". This is a peculiar statement. Yes, chicken on pasta is not an Italian dish. But claiming that it is a universal truth about "respectable" combinations is silly -- there are many Chinese dishes involving noodles and chicken. For that matter, in terms of combining flavors, many recipes for tortelli or pasticcio involve the combination of pasta and chicken. Remember, this is an encyclopedia. We report on things in a neutral way. The article already says that the versions with chicken etc. were invented in the US. There is no reason to insult people whose food culture is American rather than Italian. Personally, I agree that that is a silly thing to do. But that is an opinion, aka original research. --Macrakis (talk) 20:52, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Another related observation about the content and accuracy of this article
Our article reads: in Italy this dish is usually called simply "fettuccine al burro", although outside of Rome, "fettuccine" is called "tagliatelle" (Italian wikipedia redirects from the former to the latter). Also, in Italy, the "dish" itself – in so much as there is such a thing beyond the restaurant that makes it – would likely be called "pasta in bianco" or "pasta al burro e parmigiano" (as it would likely be made with pretty much any pasta that's laying about in the pantry, not specifically "fettuccine"). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Help desk too. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2024 (UTC) PPS: The folks who have one of the Roman restaurants that sells this "dish" have opened a branch in Saudi Arabia. [NB: One has to wonder if the whole story is a clever marketing ploy (cooked up by the nonno, with a wink and a grin, way back in the day).] -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Tell the tens of thousands of Italian-American restaurants who sell this dish and the hundreds of millions of Americans who eat this dish and have for 100 years that the whole thing is a cooked up when their great-grandparents were young and gullible, . While you are at it, examine the pasta sauce section of thousands of American supermarkets. Arguing against a century of reality as reflected by countless reliable sources is not a good strategy. Cullen328 (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but personally I don't understand the eternal discussions about this dish. Fettuccine all'Alfredo (or "al triplo burro": so it is mentioned by Carnacina) was born in Italy as a local variation of Fettuccine al burro, which is a typical home cooking dish. Then it was adopted in the states, where it changed again, and got an enormous popularity. Its origin is well attested, its later developments too, where is the problem? Alex2006 (talk) 11:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No problem (except that we may inadvertently be propagating a myth invented by nonno "the King of the noodles" Alfredo), though it seems that this subject is something of a gastro-cultural third rail (oddly). Perhaps we could paraphrase the title of the Gambero Rosso article mentioned above (The strange case of Fettuccine Alfredo, an almost unknown dish in Italy that's famous in America) and use it as a title for this article. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Where would the myth be? Alex2006 (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Any such alteration of the article title would be a serious violation of the Neutral point of view, which is a core content policy. Cullen328 (talk) 17:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment (in order to underscore the core point about "Fettuccine Alfredo" not really being an Italian thing – do read the article if you have time). Fear not, I would never attempt to rename an article (especially one of such grave import and potentially contentious nature) without clear community consensus! Sorry if any confusion. All's well. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Myth No. 1 would be: that Italians (apart from those who are in some way involved with or knowledgeable about the two or three Roman restaurants that serve this dish, or perhaps those who have read about or otherwise discovered the Italo-American dish by this name) have any idea what "Fettuccine Alfredo" is;
 * It's also possible (though much harder to prove or disprove) our Myth No. 2 is: that nonno Alfredo's version of this history is in fact true (rather than a good-natured, tongue-in-cheek story that proved to be highly profitable, and which eventually took on a culturally significant life of its own – as is my suspicion).
 * [NB: Being of a sceptical nature, and reading in one of our sources that the "famous" gold cutlery was melted down to support Mussolini's war effort – and yet, lo and behold, there it is on display in the restaurant did tweak my bs meter.]
 * In any case, I've tried to wikify the syntax a bit (and strengthen the article's sources) to reflect some of what I understand to be the concerns initially raised above and elsewhere by . Please let me know if we're moving in the right direction to help establish truly NPOV here (there's room for improvement still, in my view). Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , what is your reliable source for Myth 1? Americans who know anything about cuisines all know that Italian-American cuisine differs from Italian cuisine, just as Chinese-American cuisine differs from Chinese cuisine, and Mexican-American cuisine differs from Mexican cuisine. As for Myth 2, the origin stories of many culinary dishes worldwide are often based on legends and lore, and there are often rival contenders for original creator. Consider an article that I wrote, Florentine (culinary term). The common origin story has been debunked but it is still worthy of mention in the article without saying in Wikipedia's voice that it is true. Helpful would be a reliable source that debunks the Fettucine Alfredo origin story. Cullen328 (talk) 21:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Re: Myth No. 1, the Gambero Rosso is pretty authoritative (in Italy anyhow). If they say it's "almost unknown" (quasi sconosciuto) in Italy, I'd give that high-marks for reliability. The WineAndFoodTour.it! site is probably less authoritative (and may or may not be WP:RS), but again, we have an Italian foodie source that states unequivocally "to be honest almost no Italian knows it" (anche se a dirla tutta quasi nessuno italiano lo conosce). We also have the title of Maurizio Pelli's book: Fettuccine Alfredo, Spaghetti Bolognaise & Caesar Salad; The Triumph of the World's False Italian Cuisine (to which I do not have access, but we have it in our "Bibliography" section).
 * [NB: I made no mention of "Americans" per se. Perhaps I implied that this is primarily an American dish (which I would say it is) by referring to it as "Italo-American", so I'm not sure what your point is when you say Americans who know anything about cuisines all know.]
 * PS:, here is another pretty solid source for the claim that this is essentially an Italo-American dish – this one from the Corriere della Sera, a highly reputable national newspaper (and also in Italian, I'm afraid). The claim is that the two competing Roman restaurants ("Scrofa" and "Vero" for short) are "almost the only ones to offer [Fettuccine Alfredo] in Italy" (gli unici quasi a proporla in Italia). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:59, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * YES, I'm Italian and, literally, Italians who don't know Italian-American cuisine don't know this dish; only two restaurants in the whole of Italy offer fettuccine Alfredo. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Re: Myth No. 2, again difficult to prove or disprove. There is an enormous amount of recycling of our article in the more recent sources, and the older sources are a lot more vague about some of the salient details (e.g., name of dish, golden cutlery, etc.). We're stating these things as facts. They may be myths or apocrypha.
 * For what it's worth, I do find the fact that we repeat the "origin" story three times, mention Di Lelio(s) a dozen or more times, and evoke the Pickford/Fairbanks story a few times (and that we also have a stand alone article about at least one of the restaurants) to be somewhat promotional in nature – all things considered.
 * Nice Florentine article. Who knew. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * exactly. If we consider Gambero Rosso unreliable, then we must also consider American Cookery not authoritative, because, as Cullen328 implicitly wrote in response to a comment of mine, in this encyclopaedia we are all on the same level, so an authoritative American cookbook cannot be worth more than an authoritative Italian cookbook. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Piano sano e lontano. If you,, et al. are in agreement with the direction we're heading, I'd be happy to continue re-working the article per above comments to see where we land. Neutral about anything else. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

, thanks to your answer. Now,


 * about myth1: in Italy fettuccine Alfredo is known only as an italo-american dish, and the reason is that it is a dish invented in a Roman restaurant (now it is served in two, because di Lelio gave up his own restaurant with the recipe but then changed his mind and reopened another in the same neighborhood) and the recipe is secret. No one really knows how they are prepared, and being a variation of burro e parmigiano, people continued to cook plain burro e parmigiano. And no, Gambero rosso (like la Cucina italiana) is not really a trustworthy source anymore. They are two victims of the social media.


 * about myth2 (the golden forks): this is not a myth, because the thing is attested by several trustworthy sources, including Luigi Carnacina (1888-1981), who was roman and one of the most important Italian gastronomes of the twentieth century. In his book Roma in cucina (Ed. Giunti, 1975, p. 72), after hazarding a recipe for the dish ("Fettuccine al triplo burro"), he writes: "Il bravo Alfredo, purtoppo scomparso, sapeva servirle con la sua divertente e stuzzicante coreografia, munito di grandi e sontuose posate d'oro, che spiccavano sul colore candido del burro". So this is not a legend.

Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you,.
 * What concerns me about the golden cutlery – a spoon and a fork, to be precise (which are really only props in a potentially fabricated or highly embellished story that we're calling Myth No. 2) is not their existence or the claim that nonno Alfredo occasionally used them to stir the pasta; it is their origin and the inscription. A native English speaker would not write "the King of the noodles" (emphasis is mine), but rather "the King of noodles". (Interestingly, according to our Douglas Fairbanks article, he was know as "The King of Hollywood".) One has to wonder, though as Myth No. 2 is speculative, it will remain here on the Talk page until solid sourcing is found (unlikely).
 * Re: Myth No. 1, can we agree that the dish called "Fettuccine Alfredo" is essentially Italian-American (notwithstanding the existence of Italian versions called "fettuccine al burro", "pasta al burro e parmigiano", "pasta in bianco", etc.)?
 * Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Myth 1 as I interpreted it is that Americans widely think that Fettuccine Alfredo is just as popular in Italy as it is in the United States. I see no evidence for that claim. Only a very small percentage of Americans have visited Italy and the vast majority of Americans spend essentially zero time thinking about how often or infrequently Italians eat various dishes in Italy. As for Myth 2, that can be dealt with by attributing the origin story to the marketing statements of the Rome restaurant owners rather than stating any of that in Wikipedia's voice. What I object to is any sort of framing that Italian cuisine is superior to Italian-American cuisine in Wikipedia's voice. That is a violation of the neutral point of view. I also want to make clear that Italian-American restaurants, in my many decades of experience eating in them, do not promote or even mention the golden cutlery/Douglas Fairbanks/Mary Pickford story. That all goes back 100 or more years ago, and the younger generation are barely aware of these big stars of the silent film era. Of the countless Italian-American restaurants I've eaten at, many do not even offer the dish, and of those that do, it is just another item on the menu, without any promotional gimmicks. Also, it is not routinely offered with chicken. Some grilled chicken breast is often offered as an add-on for an extra price. The emphasis on Olive Garden is a bit misleading. Yes, they emphasize Alfredo dishes, but there are as many as 100,000 Italian-American restaurants in the US, and only 900 are Olive Gardens. With the exception of chain pizzerias, most Italian-American restaurants are independent local family owned businesses. The "In American culture" section is especially weak because it focuses heavily on the Italian origins and things that various people said 100 years ago. I venture to guess that 99.99% of Americans are entirely unaware that the Roman dish was mentioned fleetingly in Babbitt, a novel which was published over 100 years ago, and whose premise has been undermined by profound changes in American society in the past 70 years. The first reference in the section is by Forbes contributor John Mariani, who argues vigorously in favor of the original Roman recipe, but that is not at all reflective of the dish in contemporary American culture, and per WP:FORBESCON, there is strong consensus that articles by Forbes contributors are not reliable sources. In conclusion, the article spends far too much time describing the Roman origins and the celebrity gossip of 100 years ago, and far less time describing the dish as it is actually eaten and enjoyed by tens of millions of contemporary Americans. Cullen328 (talk) 18:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Some good points here, thank you. It seems that we largely agree that there are improvements to be made. I've got some thoughts on how to implement and will try to find time to give this some further attention at the WE. (Any contemporary American cultural significance and/or recent history input most welcome.) Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah, food, I love it.;-) I've traveled around Italy from Venice to Palermo, and ate all the wonderful food I could. I have prepared the Italian-American dish, fettuccine alfredo, hundreds of times, harking back to my salad days when I worked as a sauté chef in a beachside seafood restaurant, not that this gives my opinion any extra weight (it doesn't). Being a seafood restaurant, the restaurant served it with shrimp (gasp, horrors), or without. To accommodate some of the concerns expressed here about the veracity of Alfredo Di Lelio's claims, perhaps the lede could say that it's an "Italian-American, nominally Italian, pasta dish"? Carlstak (talk) 19:50, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Food, Glorious Food, no matter how thin the gruel. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hallo,, here my answer:
 * about myth1: in Italy Fettuccine alfredo is known as an Italo-American food (by the Italians who travel abroad and know it there). The dish in the original version has never spread in Italy because it is a local dish prepared by a Roman restaurant, and the recipe has always been kept secret (even today). It is like the famous ricotta and sour cherry tart from the pasticceria Boccione in the roman ghetto. there are hundreds of recipes on the web that try to imitate it, but none come close to the original.
 * about myth2: looks like the golden cutlery exists still today, as you can read here (it is an interview to his grand niece).
 * Generally speaking, I would
 * remove the redirect of pasta al burro;
 * write an article about the pasta al burro (I think it deserves it, since it is a dish at least 600 years old, and well sourced in renaissance text books);
 * move the history of pasta al burro to the new article;
 * and describe fettuccine Alfredo as an Italian-American dish with Italian origin (since it was born as a variation of fettuccine al burro).

The recipe has never been secret. Our article gives multiple sources, which all agree. As for the story of the golden cutlery, it is very unclear. First of all, both of the current "Alfredo" restaurants apparently have a set. (So which is the real one?) Secondly, I've read that the originals were given to the Italian government for the war effort. (I can't find the reference right now.). Third, as far as I can tell, all the stories about the cutlery originate with the restaurant itself -- do we have any contemporary evidence from the Pickford/Fairbanks side? Fourth, as someone has pointed out, the English on the cutlery is not idiomatic. Overall, I'd say that the original story might be true (or not), but it is highly unlikely that what is currently being displayed is the original pair. --Macrakis (talk) 15:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 10:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks. Re: creation of a pasta al burro article, I placed a redlink in the infobox as an aide memoire (my head is full of noodles at this point so I may not get there first, but it's an excellent suggestion). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * a tip: being fettuccine, in the article it would be more correct to write "fettuccine" and not "noodles". JacktheBrown (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There are a few references that use "Noodles" (lest we forget the famous golden cutlery itself), so there's a good reason for using both in the article – however, above, "noodle" and "head" together make noodlehead (which is how I'm starting to feel down this rabbit hole). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 20:25, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1925 edition of the Touring Guida Rossa to Italia Centrale by Bertarelli clearly lists the specialty of d'Alfredo as "fettuccine al burro", as does the 1934 edition of Roma e dintorni. This is a very reputable Italian source. A 1981 American source (Fodor's) agrees. They are just very fancy -- and very fancily presented -- fettuccine al burro.
 * Of course the Olive Garden version is very different and un-Italian. So what? Every dish develops variants with time, some of them felicitous, others not. The version of beef Stroganoff made with Knorr's mix is vastly different from the first version documented by Molokhovets (and it is quite different in Brazil, Sweden, and Japan). Greek salad as served in most US restaurants is vastly different from that served in Greece. Naturally, the articles about these dishes point out the differences between the older versions and the US variants. --Macrakis (talk) 09:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I share your scepticism and have endeavoured to revise the Golden Cutlery aspects of the article in manner which underscores its importance to the overall myth that helped make this dish a worldwide phenomenon (what this article, in rather exquisitely revisionist terms now calls Rome's maggior successo internazionale greatest international success), while also clarifying that it may be just a story (cf. BBC: Spaghetti-Harvest in Ticino). In fact, it's one of the things that caught my interest in the first place (after the resolution of the great Italian vs. Italo-American debate, of course). We're in pretty good shape now. I certainly wouldn't drop it from the article at this point (and am not at all interested in doing this all over again). Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Re-drafting, balancing, and copy editing (based on comments above)
This is a work in progress. Please be patient. Any help, ehem, thickening-up the "In American culture" section would be appreciated. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Will be back later and will try to finish-up this process over the weekend. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

re: your reverts: Thoughts? Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I had moved the short paragraph the begins Recipes attributed to Di Lelio include only three ingredients into another section for two reasons: 1) to help establish the timeline of the recipe's evolution from the original; 2) because I was going to suggest deleting the entire remaining "Traditional preparation" section (which imparts virtually no information that isn't found elsewhere in the article, and includes an long block quote that's not much different from the earlier quote box quote).
 * Alice Rohe's article helps helps establish credibility and a time-frame for the claim that Di Lelio was knighted – which is not actually established by any of our other sources as far as I can see (other than calling him "Cavaliere", which is an appellation that sometimes gets tossed around pretty cavalierly).
 * Also, this edit pretty much contradicts everything that has been said and done to improve the article in the past week: We have established that Fettuccine Alfredo is an Italo-American dish which is virtually unknown by that name in Italy.

Multiple issues banner
I don't agree that this article is in such bad shape as to need a "multiple issues" banner. It is in the normal state of a Wikipedia article, being edited and debated by multiple editors. It already covers the major points: Could it be expanded? -- sure! Could the English be improved? -- I don't see any flagrant problems requiring copy editing. Could someone point them out? --Macrakis (talk) 21:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * What the dish is.
 * Who invented it.
 * How it was prepared originally.
 * That the name "fettuccine alfredo" is essentially unknown in Italy.
 * That "fettuccine al burro" is pretty much the same thing.
 * That variants in the US version include ingredients that are never found in Italy.
 * Various stories about it (with sources), like the golden silverware.


 * Removed (by editor who placed the tags). No offence intended (noting, with great respect and appreciation, that you've been at it since 2006).
 * [NB: Banner was added in the context of the many points recently discussed above (from "Fettuccine Alfredo and fettuccine al burro aren't the same dish" onwards), and was intended in part to signal the impending edits. Much of this work has now been implemented.]
 * Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * PS: In my view, your bullet points above confirm that much of the needed work (per discussion) has been successfully implemented. Nice progression! Thanks, , , , et al. I'm also now wondering what it would take to get this article to GA status (or "Level 5 Vital" status per Lasagna)? Rater says its "B Class" now, but I don't have much experience with the higher rating criteria. Any advice? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Possible useful sources
One of our references (Barry Popik – which may itself be non-RS) contains a goldmine of possible references. There is also some interesting information about US "Alfredo's" restaurants that may have a direct link to the Roman one(s) in places like Rockefeller Center (1970s and 1980s), as well as some information about "Fettuccine Alfredo" trademarks (apparently abandoned in 2001), etc. These sources may be useful in understanding the events and timelines that led to this dish becoming a ubiquitous staple of Italo-American cuisine.

Adding the references and trademark info here for ease of viewing (less the large blocks of possibly copyvio text, the 2009 WP cut and paste, etc.).:

Southern Italy: Including Rome, Sicily, and Sardinia By Findlay Muirhead, Luigi Vittorio Bertarelli, Consociazione turistica itailana, Touring club italiano Edition: 2 Published by Macmillan and co., ltd. 1925 Pg. 4: ...d’ Alfredo, 104 a, Via della Scrofa, noted for fettuccine al burro;... So You’re Going to Rome! by Calara E. Laughlin Boston, MA: Houghton Mifflin Company Copyright, 1925 and 1928 Pg. 351: Most travellers would blush to admit they had been in Rome and had not eaten Alfredo’s fettucine al burro, a sort of macaroni with butter, which has netted Alfredo both fame and fortune. Alfredo is at 104 Via della Scrofa. [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.] 6 May 1927, Cumberland (MD) Evening Times, pg. 6, cols. 2-3: Knighted For His Spaghetti How Alfredo Mixes Titled Fettuccine (Photo Caption: “Alfredo di Lelio mixing fettuccine for a patron.”) By ALICE ROHE NEA Service Special Correspondent Rome, May 6. —All the world knows that spaghetti is the reigning idsh in Italy. But what the world does not know perhaps is that the reigning king of Italy has knighted the owner of a little restaurant in Rome as the best spaghetti maker in the world. [NB: Added to article.] 8 June 1929, Modesto (CA) News-Herald, “Rector’s Recipes” by George Rector, pg. 10, col. 1: I AM going to give a recipe to-day for noodles Alfredo, as prepared by Alfredo himself in his tiny restaurant in Rome, Italy. The act of mixing the butter and cheese through the noodles becomes quite a ceremony, and as busy as Alfredo is with other duties he manages to be at each table when the waiter arrives with the platter of “fettuccine” to be mixed by him. Noodles Alfredo Cook noodles in boiling salted water for twnety minutes. Drain in colander and hold under cold water to separate, then hold under hot water to reheat. Drain, place noodles on a large, hot platter, sprinkle top with grated Parmesan cheese and add three lumps of butter about the size of a small egg. Now take a large spoon and a fork and lift noodles from platter until butter and cheese are thoroughly blended with the noodles. Alfredo spends at least seven minutes blending the butter and cheese through the noodles. [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.] 3 June 1932, Indiana (PA) Evening Gazette, “How to Eat Spaghetti” by George Rector, pg. 15, col. 4: The best form of pasta is fettuccine, and some of the best fettuccine is published by Alfredo, Cavaliera della Corona d’Italia. Alfredo doesn’t make fettuccine. He doesn’t cook it. He achieves it. I could go on for hours, painting the picture of Alfredo achieving his fettuccine. The ritual is as solemn and as breath taking as the majestic sight of the sun sinking over mountain tops. Rich calm beauty, and a deep promise of what is to come, plus an indefinable mystery. Yes, I know I’m waqxing poetic, but I stand my ground. Alfredo’s fettuccine is poetry. 10 December 1939, New York (NY) Herald Tribune This Week magazine, pg. 11, col. 3: Finally there is the recipe for spaghetti (Col. 4—ed.) which Mr. Morro got from the famous Alfredo in Rome. It’s a very simple one but a great favorite among distinguished gourmets visiting Rome. We call it Alfredo’s Spaghetti [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.]

1 package (8 oz.) spaghetti 1/4 cup butter 1/4 cup grated cheese Cook spaghetti in boiling, salted water according to directions on package. While hot dot generously with butter; turn until butter is melted. Sprinkle with grated cheese. Yield 4-6 servings. 28 February 1951, Uniontown (PA) Evening Standard, “He Meets His First King” by Henry McLemore, pg. 4, col. 2: ROME —I met my first king last night. (...) This jiggling monarch of 70 years of age was Alfredo the First, King of the Noodles, or in Italian, “Il Vero Re Delle Fettuccine.” [NB: Added to article.] 29 March 1956, Moravia (Iowa) Union, pg. 4, col. 6: Last week we had fettuccine al Alfredo, which was described on some program by a chef just oof the plane from Rome—he even brought his own cheese—and then we had cherries jubilee for dessert. [NB: Added to article 8/5/24.] 26 June 1957, New York (NY) Times, "Food; Three Restaurants" by June Owen, pg. 48: Fettuccine Alfredo, originated at the famous Alfredo’s in Rome, is another specialty ($1.65). The flat, noodlelike pasta is served with lots of butter and grated Parmesan cheese. [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.] 10 April 1964, Oakland (CA) Tribune, Pg. D35, col. 5 ad: FETTUCCINE ALFREDO…1.50 [NB: Added to article on 25/4/24.] (Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FETTUCCINE ALFREDO SINCE 1914 Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Pre-cooked, non-frozen and semi-fresh fettuccine seasoned with sauce; fresh fettuccine; and dried fettuccine Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 02.09.11 - Humans engaged in other work; Humans, including men, women and children, depicted engaged in other work 05.15.02 - Laurel leaves or branches (borders or frames); Wreaths 08.13.01 - Macaroni; Noodles; Pasta; Spaghetti 11.01.25 - Brushes, basting; Chopsticks; Churns, butter (manual); Cups, measuring; Fruit juices, non-electric; Garlic presses (non-electric); Graters, cheese; Holders, kitchen utensil; Ice cube trays; Juicers, non-electric; Ladles (soup); Measuring cups; Napkin holders; Other non-electric kitchen utensils, utensil holders; Pasta makers, non-electric; Potato peelers; Racks, kitchen tool; Scoops, ice cream; Shakers, cocktail; Sharpeners, knife (non-electric) 12.01.07 - Billiard tables; Cabinets, cabins; Coffee tables; Conference tables; Dressing tables; End tables; Folding tables; Game tables; Nightstands; Picnic tables; Table tennis tables; Table, computer; Tables; Tables, pool 24.07.07 - Prize ribbons; Ribbons, prize Serial Number 75643879 Filing Date February 18, 1999 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition March 21, 2000 Owner (APPLICANT) MOZZETTI, MARIO INDIVIDUAL ITALY Via Conca d’Ore, 329 00141 Rome ITALY (APPLICANT) ALFREDO ALLA SCROFA S.N.C. Mario Mozzetti, Italian citizen, and Elisabetta Salvatori, a Italian citizen PARTNERSHIP ITALY Via della Scrofa 104 00186 Rome ITALY Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Anthony P. Venturino Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE “THE ORIGINAL FETTUCCINE ALFREDO” and “SINCE 1914” APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Description of Mark The mark consists in part of the design of a man seated at a table and twirling pasta. The lining in the drawing is a feature of the mark and does not indicate color. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date November 21, 2001 Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Why it matters?
Well – out of the Italo-American pasta pack, Alfredo is |Spaghetti_and_meatballs|Ziti|Lasagna|Penne_alla_vodka running neck and neck with Lasagna for first prize (a set Gold steak knives). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Notwithstanding those two breath-taking (and unexplained) Baked Ziti spikes. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:43, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hahaha. I assure you it had something to do with an insidious capitalist campaign on TikTok, probably related to the popularity in the US of Michaelangelo's 3 cheese baked ziti, or perhaps their baked ziti and meatballs.;-) Carlstak (talk) 18:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Fascinating. Thank you for the reference. Not surprisingly, Mr. Angelo makes a Chicken Alfredo with Broccoli (which is, of course, "inspired by Italian traditions"). Perhaps the Sauce section of our article could be expanded to include other "Alfredo" formats (i.e., TV Dinners, etc.). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, that might be useful, but it could really open a Pandora's box, I fear.;-) Carlstak (talk) 00:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Judging by the laudable (if not somewhat improbable) attention that the subject has garnered, it seems that nonno Alfredo has already well and truly blown the lid off of Pandora's box. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Two Three possible new articles (suggestion)
Our Carnacina & Buonassisi reference leads to two articles that we might want to add to enwiki: 1) Luigi Carnacina; 2) Vincenzo Buonassisi (I'll add them to my list, though it might take a while before I get to these). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Adding Luigi Vittorio Bertarelli (one of our 1920s references) to the above suggestions. [NB: Trecciani says: È stato il vero apostolo del turismo in Italia He was the true apostle of tourism in Italy (which in retrospect may damn him for eternity, but he's clearly WP:N regardless).] -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Name and emigration
It's not clear what Alfredo called his fettuccine on his menu in the 1920s. It's not even clear when they started being called fettuccine Alfredo in Italian. In English, George Rector (1927) called them "Alfredo's noodles" and Alice Rohe (1927) calls them "Noodles Alfredo", which may have been translations, or just descriptions or invented names.
 * An Italian story (1923) calls them fettuccine maestose, a term later used in the superlative (maestosissime) by the restaurant.
 * An Italian guidebook and its English translation (1925) calls them fettuccine al burro.

As for when they came to the US, it is certainly true that Rector and Rohe talked them up starting in 1927. I don't know which of them was more widely read or whether their readers tried to reproduce the dish. The Musso and Frank Grill in Los Angeles has a story on their web site claiming that Fairbanks and Pickford brought Alfredo's recipe to Hollywood and had it cooked at Musso and Frank's, but that the dish was not added to the menu. Which sounds fishy.

What is the earliest confirmed "sighting" of the dish in an American restaurant? --Macrakis (talk) 22:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Great! The 1923 reference date reinforces our documented timeline nicely. The earliest instance of the actual "Fettuccine Alfredo" nomenclature I've seen is still that NYT piece from 1957. As for restaurant sightings, let's keep digging. I saw something else about the Musso & Frank Grill claim somewhere. Let me see if I can unearth it again.
 * Surprising that nobody has written a thesis or case study on the evolution of "Alfredo's noodles" into big "F" Fettuccine Alfredo. Seems like a missed opportunity.
 * Also, this edit does leave us with a bit of a hole between c. 1914 and 1943 on the Roman side of the divide (which now looks like it's missing a few teeth to my eye).
 * Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 18:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Reorganised the Rome/US sections to include some of the above. To my eye, it looks pretty good. The second, third, and fourth paragraphs of the "In American culture" section need further refinement and better integration (and the whole lot probably needs proofreading). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 18:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Literally
In this edit, the "literally" template was restored in several places when I had replaced it with a simple gloss. The lit. template, as opposed to the template -- or simply 'single quotes'  (cf. MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS) -- is useful when the literal translation and the actual meaning are different. For example, "cappellini lit. 'little hairs' is a kind of fine pasta". It isn't appropriate when the literal and the actual meaning are the same, e.g., "fettuccine al burro (lit. 'fettuccine with butter')", which should be "fettuccine al burro fettuccine with butter" (with no parentheses). Also, rather than reverting other editors for things like this, it's better to discuss on Talk. --Macrakis (talk) 14:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hallo, attenzione! "cappellini lit. 'little hats'; "capellini lit. 'little hairs' ;-)  Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 15:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course! Silly of me! --Macrakis (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * At some point we had the English translations in the main text, followed by a  template for the original Italian. It's been changed and reverted a few times now (lit, gloss, trans and back again), so I'm a bit confused. My personal preference is English in the text (which I find more readable), followed by the original (using whatever template is correct/appropriate). As it is, we're a bit inconsistent throughout – with these, as well as italic usage, quotation marks and capitalisation. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not keep changing/reverting other editors without explanation. Please read MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS. It appears that has applied this correctly. If you feel that there is a reason that it should be ignored, then let's discuss it here. Honestly, the frustration of doing a round of edits to improve the article, only to return and see that you have "fixed" something that's just been done is rather a bore. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * so it's correct to ignore the punctuation... strange for an encyclopedia. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't profess to know what is "correct" for an encyclopaedia, however, the application of this encyclopaedia's guidance for simple gloss usage in the English language seems to have been properly applied in this case. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * punctuation must be included, but since you're the main contributor to this page I leave the choice to you. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Honestly don't know what's "right". I like one thing, something else, and apparently you yet another. Macrakis's brief explanation above seems quite clear, no? I was willing to park the matter and go with that.
 * As I said above, the article is inconsistent throughout – with [glosses] italic usage, quotation marks and capitalisation (though getting better). Maybe an editor with fresh eyes would be so kind as to proofread the whole thing? Perhaps requesting that someone at WP:GOCE with particular expertise in these matters have a go, and/or adding a  tag might get someone else interested? To keep going back and forth is a waste of everybody's time.
 * I do think we ought to look at getting a WP:GA rating for this now. WP:RATER says "B or higher" with %98.5 probability (for what that's worth), so I've already set it at "B". Perhaps it should also have WP:VITAL status (Lasagne has this, so why not Fettuccine Alfredo)? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 14:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OT: it would also be nice to work on other articles, such as pasta salad; we're working a lot on the fettuccine Alfredo page, and in my opinion it's already complete. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Going back to this: "My personal preference is English in the text (which I find more readable), followed by the original". We should use the English term only if it is commonly used in English. Otherwise, we should use the Italian term with a gloss, especially if is a fixed expression. For example, pasta in bianco 'plain pasta' explains the expression, and I don't think it's necessary to add lit. 'pasta in white'. Just "plain pasta" in English isn't quite right.... --Macrakis (talk) 10:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Noted. I had already come around to your point of view and think the second paragraph reads very well as is (see above: Macrakis's brief explanation above seems quite clear, no? I was willing to park the matter and go with that). had some issue with the punctuation. I also agree with you that the penultimate sentence of the paragraph is clear as written (pasta in bianco with no glosses or other technical flourishes).
 * While we're here, I'm not in love with the last clause of the first paragraph (on top or on the side) and think it could be left out – but I'm not going to make a fuss about it either. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * nothing "against" you, but in my opinion without punctuation is wrong, and it's a right of democracy to discuss (naturally, peacefully) about a rule that creates problems, in this case the lack of punctuation. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that you might have misunderstood. I simply said that I accepted the explanation. I'm not an expert and have no opinion other than we should do what best practice dictates. There are accepted rules for proper usage and 's explanation (plus MOS:SIMPLEGLOSS) seemed an authoritative summary of those rules. Also, if you keep reverting (punctuation, infobox bloat, overlink, etc.), the article will not be eligible for GA status (see WP:GAFAIL #4), which would be a shame after all the work that's been put into it. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * some rules aren't objectively perfect; in particular, this one should be improved. JacktheBrown (talk) 11:56, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Rules are neither objectively "perfect" nor objectively "wrong" -- they are conventions for stylistic consistency and clarity, and every publication has a slightly different style. In any case, the right place to discuss this is at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, where if you search the archives, you'll find considerable discussion of the issue. --Macrakis (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Reference: https://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2024/02/07/news/fettuccine_alfredo_compleanno_116_anni-422080672/
this reference you're proposing, since the title says "il piatto più buono del mondo", lit. 'the best dish in the world', in my opinion should be removed; too subjective. JacktheBrown (talk) 23:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The Repubblica piece does support a number of claims that are made in our article (as well as adding some nuance and detail). Thought it might be of some use to someone at some point. It's only here on the Talk page, not in the article itself – however, if you feel that it couldn't possibly be of any use to anyone in future (due to the wording of the title), by all means, remove it. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is nothing in WikiPedia policy that prevents us from reporting on subjective opinions. In fact, Neutral point of view says that we should report "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". Of course, we should not treat these opinions as "truth" but rather be sure to contextualize them. --Macrakis (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Long quotes
The two long quotes are now both in  format. This made sense for two reasons: 1) Consistency; 2) Mobile device readability. (Also, the first has been slightly trimmed and a portion brought into the text body, which I've just noticed that I failed to note in the edit summary.) Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Menu image
The illustration with caption "Ristorante Alfredo menu, 1920s" is copied from the restaurant's web site. I see no evidence that this menu cover is from the 1920s. It appears on the page which is about the "origins" of fettuccine Alfredo, and has several undated photos, most of them clearly from later. Nowhere does it give a date for this menu cover. To my eye, the design of the menu doesn't look like it's from the 1920s, but I'm no specialist on the design of menus in Italy in the 1920s! --Macrakis (talk) 16:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * For Commons discussion re: source and permissibility of images, please see: Commons:Village pump/Copyright#Alfredo Di Lelio. Perhaps this should have been included earlier when adding the images (as the topic does seem to attract a fair bit of controversy). As for the timeframe, I'm comfortable with 1920s for the menu and teens for the photo of De Lelio (per multiple sources where these images can be found, such as this). I'll dig around a bit more too. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 21:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
 * PS: If you're not comfortable with the "1920s" date in the caption, we could expand the range ("1920s or 1930s") or just remove the date until it can be confirmed with a better source. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I wasn't reopening the permissions issue, just pointing out the lack of evidence for the date in the original source. I suggest we remove the date until we have a decent source. --Macrakis (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Removal of WP:RSSELF ref
Well spotted! I hadn't noticed that Dorrance Publishing Company was a vanity press (duped by the ISBN number). The sub-title of the book in question summarises the central point that countless multitudes have tried to raise on this very Talk page over the years that I didn't think to dig deeper (emphasis is mine):

Preserving it here for the record. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I haven't read the book, but it is strange that he groups Caesar salad with the other two. As far as I know, no one claims that Caesar salad was ever part of Italian cuisine. As far as we can tell, it was invented by an Italian restaurant owner in Mexico. And I don't think it's particularly associated with Italian-American cuisine. In fact, the only reference to Italy in our Caesar salad article is in the origin of the inventor, and the Italian-American cuisine article doesn't mention Caesar salad. Sure, it's served in Italian-American restaurants, but it's also served in almost every other American restaurant as well. --Macrakis (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

False information
This dish is American-Italian.

I corrected this information twice, but it has been changed back to Italian and world cuisine.

The dish has its roots in Rome but left its birthplace for the United States.

The dish isn't called differently in Italy; it simply doesn't exist there. IlEssere (talk) 14:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing this to the Talk page. If you read through the discussions above and look at the article's edit history, you'll see that achieving the right balance about the question of the dish's origin has been discussed in quite some detail. The current draft reflects a pretty good consensus of the editors who have participated in the discussion and who have made iterative improvements to the text (based on available sources). The claim is only that the dish originated in Rome, spread to the United States and became well-know there (and eventually in other places too – ironically, including some more recent fame in Italy itself); not that it's an Italian classic known throughout Italy and beloved to all. Everything that is written is scrupulously backed-up by reliable sources (some dating back to the 1920s). Please read the article carefully (and review its sources too). Any edits you chose to make should be supported by WP:RS sources. No opinions please. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree on everything that you mentioned so far, but I think it's more appropriate to state the dish Italian-American instead of of Italian and world cuisine. IlEssere (talk) 16:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I tend agree with you. Others have pointed out that to over-emphasise this was incorrect given the Roman origin story. It was also said by some that our choice of syntax was perhaps implicitly showing prejudice against Americans – intended or not.
 * In the infobox, we do state that the dish is "associated" with Italian, Italian-American, and world cuisine, which seems fair, and is accurate as reflected by the history and current reality. In the text body, we try to remain neutral and only state the facts (as per our many very good sources). What we have now is quite improved as compared to earlier versions.
 * Of course, if you can make it better, please do. However, simply expressing opinions without sources to back-up any claims will likely lead to your edits being reverted. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 18:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

If Alfredo is Italian Food, so is McDonald’s Italian dishes?
McDonald's has its own 'Italian' dishes that originated in Italy, and unlike Alfredo, these are served all across Italy. Does that mean McDonald's 'Italian' food is genuinely Italian? While Alfredo sauce has Italian influences and Roman origins, it cannot be considered a traditional Italian dish, just as many McDonald's items can't be genuinely Italian either. IlEssere (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)