Talk:Fianna Fáil

Conservative?
The article describes Fianna Fail as a conservative political party. However, it is also described as a "catch-all" party. Do those two terms contradict each other? Also, with only one exception that I can see, the sources cited for the proposition that Fianna Fail is conservative are 20th-century sources. Is it possible that the "conservative" characterization is outdated? I am an American, so it is possible that these terms mean something different in Ireland than they do in my country. SunCrow (talk) 09:35, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It's time for a rational discussion of the description "conservative" that was added to the introduction. The origin of the change in particularly murky, having been added by an IP editor (90.147.23.92) from an iPhone or iPad at 13:29 on 10 July 2018‎.  The edit summary say "added additional clarifying information."  since the only change was to add the word "conservative", this edit summary is downright deceitful. Arguably all of the three largest Irish political parties are "conservative" (remember Brendan Corish and Labour's rather odd policy on contraception in the 1970s, anyone?) Fiachra10003 (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I think the attitude of a member of the Labour Party, 40-something years ago, is irrelevant to this article, but Labour could in no way be described as conservative now. The addition in question happened not too long after the referendum to repeal the 8th. A large rump of Fianna Fáil did not support the holding of a referendum, and/or did not campaign for repeal, and/or actively opposed the referendum. (Or, if they were Willie O'Dea, could be seen behind both pro-choice and anti-abortion banners at various points.) They are socially conservative. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 03:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is a source from this decade that also describes the party as conservative - http://www.parties-and-elections.eu/ireland.html
 * Helper201 (talk) 03:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * According to Brendan Howlin, "Micheál Martin had developed his party into one that was centre left." https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-fáil-more-in-line-with-labour-than-fine-gael-says-howlin-1.3749359. However, he goes on to say that "The current version of Fianna Fáil – and that is the problem with Fianna Fáil, it is not an ideologically anchored party" - which I think is the fairest verdict.  Kevin Doyle in the Indo, said "traditionally, Fine Gael has sat to the centre-right and Fianna Fail has flirted with the centre-left - but, in truth, most of us in Ireland are ideologically illiterate." https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/centre-wont-hold-if-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-keep-moving-left-35133828.html. Just look at Fianna Fail's indecisiveness over the decades about where to sit in the European parliament. In my view, the wording before 10 July 2018 was the most accurate - just refer people to the infobox rather that using a one-word label in the introduction. Fiachra10003 (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the input above. I have removed the word "conservative" from the lede while leaving it in the ideology section of the infobox. I've added "centrism" (which--to my American eyes--seems to be the most apt description of the party) to the ideology section of the infobox. I have also sought to clarify the section on ideology. SunCrow (talk) 04:37, 6 September 2019 (UTC)


 * My addition of "centrism" as an ideology of the party was reverted. The ideology section of the infobox now lists only conservatism and pro-Europeanism. I have two concerns with this. First, I don't think the "conservative" description is accurate (see, e.g., https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-more-in-line-with-labour-than-fine-gael-says-howlin-1.3749359, https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/centre-wont-hold-if-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-keep-moving-left-35133828.html, https://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/12/fianna-fail-the-republican-party/, and https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0227/Enda-Kenny-hails-democratic-revolution-in-Ireland). Second, it isn't consistent with the nuanced description set forth in the ideology section of the article. Given what the sources say, and given the concerns that have been expressed for years on this talk page about the difficulties of identifying the party's ideology, I recommend that we leave the ideology section of the infobox blank. Thoughts? SunCrow (talk) 04:37, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The edit was reverted because neither source explicitly states that the party has a centrist ideology. Please see WP:SYNTH. How do these sources apply to the political ideology section, as opposed to the political position section? The problem is using sourcing like this is that you could do the same for any political party that a source labels as having a centrist political position and replicate it to the ideology section, which is not always accurate. However, I agree the party's political ideology is probably not best suited to the way in infobox currently is. I'd say the party is sort of liberal conservative, although I have seen no source that explicitly says this. I'm neutral on whether to blank the infobox, it is a very different option to what is standard on Wikipedia, but then again this issue is not normal. Helper201 (talk) 12:16, 23 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Helper201, you said you were neutral on blanking the ideology section. I see that you have now restored it. As you know, I did raise the issue for discussion above. No one other than you responded. So what do we need to discuss? SunCrow (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * SunCrow, please see the section below where I have attempted to summarise my reasoning and how we could possibly move forward as best I can. I have also added a request for comment so hopefully other editors can give their opinions on this matter. Helper201 (talk) 01:44, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * , you need to look at your sources. Brendan Howlin is saying FF are centre left? Of course he is. He's the leader of the party that wants to go back into government as a minority coalition partner with Fianna Fáil. He's not exactly neutral here. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:47, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Careful with the term "centrism". European centrists tend to be ideologically similar to US liberals; on the other hand, what is called centrism in the US is definitely considered right-wing in European terms. The centre is not a fixed place, making the term "centrism" quite tricky.
 * Given that social democrats are usually classified as centre-left (outside the US, anyway, and in political science), and Fianna Fáil are decidedly to their right, centre-right sounds fair. European liberals – who are basically free-market "classical liberals" or even (right-)libertarians – are typically considered to be centre-right (except for those that explicitly follow a social liberal ideology), and tend to ally with conservatives based on economic policy, just like free-market liberals/libertarians in the US. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 08:38, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Recent removal of the ideology section
There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources). One person's view is not a consensus. Here is a recent source that refers to the party as conservative:


 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sdlp-party-whip-resigns-in-protest-over-partnership-with-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.3789779

There have been concerns raised within the SDLP about the co-operation and possible merger between them and Fianna Fáil, seeming mostly on the basis of Fianna Fáil being viewed as politically conservative. This has been covered by multiple sources. They can't really be used as citations for conservatism as they quote the views of SDLP members and thus this is not a statement of fact, however I think its noteworthy to mention here. For example the views of the Chairman of SDLP Youth are expressed here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690.

We could possibly move conservatism to a 'sections' heading under ideology based on this source - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/11/micheal-martin-ireland-opposition-leader-wants-to-liberalise-abortion-law. However, I would not support this unless either more sources can be found that support this view and/or another primary ideology can be established and cited. This is because conservatism as a general ideology of the party has more sources at the moment. Helper201 (talk) 00:52, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I think this ideology probably does have enough merit to stand currently unless an alternative can be established and cited. Helper201 (talk) 00:54, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we could add to the ideology section by including catch-all or possibly use this to replace conservatism, based on these sources:


 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wZ-CBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Catch-all+Fianna+F%C3%A1il&source=bl&ots=0oSs4T-yie&sig=ACfU3U2uQa54ToUl6QzVoI0Yd0xBgwxRbg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiK4ML1xJDlAhVlqnEKHWB9D3g4ChDoATAJegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=Catch-all%20Fianna%20F%C3%A1il&f=false


 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZCwlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=Catch-all+Fianna+F%C3%A1il&source=bl&ots=Or1DzwwL6a&sig=ACfU3U2RdfHQqKoFO-3x0HeLfogJAWcFLg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiFu5iIxZDlAhWDThUIHTshAXg4FBDoATAFegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=Catch-all%20Fianna%20F%C3%A1il&f=false


 * However, I'd like to hear your views and others before replacing conservatism with this. I think this should be thought through and reasoned which is better (or if something else is) before we jump to conclusions or either one. At the moment I'm not saying we should or should not do this, just that it may be a viable option. Conservatism could still be included under a 'sections' header based on the article from The Guardian. Helper201 (talk) 01:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * At the moment I'd probably say I'm favour of keeping conservatism in the ideology section (possibly moving into under a 'sections' header if someone can reason why we should do this above having it as it is and/or give more sources that support it being only a section of the party). I don't see a problem with also adding catch-all to the ideology section, based on the citations given above. Helper201 (talk) 02:04, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Helper201, thanks for the explanation. As I stated above, my understanding of the politics of Ireland is limited. However, based on what I have read, it seems that the labels "conservatism" and "pro-Europeanism" don't fully represent the ideology of the party. It's not that there aren't reliable sources supporting those terms; rather, it's that there are also reliable sources that support a variety of differing (and sometimes contradictory) descriptions of the party's ideology. I think the "catch-all" designation would work, but I look forward to hearing others' perspectives. SunCrow (talk) 02:05, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

I think this section/debate needs more than two people. I also think 's first statement here is the correct one - "There was not a consensus for this. We should achieve a consensus before removing correctly cited material (of which this claim is currently correctly cited by reliable sources)." The original ideology should be restored, per WP:BRD and WP:CON, unless there is consensus to change it. That consensus is not yet present. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)


 * , thank you for your coming here to comment on this topic. What are your views on including catch-all to the ideology section of the infobox based on the sources given above? I have included this topic on WikiProject Ireland and did open a request for comment on this matter, although the latter seems to have disappeared and I could not see it on the rfc page last time I checked. Helper201 (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I think probably the WP:Ireland talk page would be the best place to get people to see the RfC notice. I wouldn't support including "catch-all" based on those references; only one is recent, and two go back over 40 years. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:34, 11 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I have placed this on WikiProject Ireland/Requests. As far as I'm aware there is no way to place an rfc on a Wikiproject page. The closest relevant section I know of is Requests for comment/Politics, government, and law, which I have tried (but perhaps it could be tried again as it didn't seem to appear there after I tagged it here). If there is another relevant section of WikiProject Ireland where you think this is more relevant/should be placed, please do place it there. I am not involved in any WikiProject's so I'm not very familiar with how they work. Helper201 (talk) 21:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Helper201.


 * I see that someone has now added "liberalism" to the ideology section, which now includes liberalism, conservatism, and pro-Europeanism. Is the party liberal and conservative at the same time? SunCrow (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2019 (UTC)


 * That was me that added liberalism. I think the party can be regarded is some ways as conservative and in others liberal. Some sources refer to the conservative element as a faction of the party, but I've seen more sources refer to the party in general as conservative. It is not a clear cut party in one direction, hence why it is cited as centre to centre-right in the infobox, with multiple citations for each. In the first line of the ideology section of the main text it is also referred to as 'catch all'. It is a member of Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe and of Liberal International. While on the other hand on certain issues, such as the 2018 Ireland abortion referendum the party was divided around 50/50 on pro-life vs pro-choice; with pro-life typically being a view held by conservatives. You might find these sources noteworthy regarding the party and its abortion stance:


 * https://www.thejournal.ie/fianna-fail-abortion-referendum-2-4236367-Sep2018/
 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/abortion-stance-could-damage-fianna-fail-s-youth-appeal-1.3260924
 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-members-split-over-martin-s-stance-on-abortion-1.3361910


 * These articles also refer to the party as conservative, either traditionally or by those being interviewed in the sources respectively:


 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sdlp-party-whip-resigns-in-protest-over-partnership-with-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.3789779
 * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690
 * http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2018/11/14/news/risk-of-sdlp-split-is-factor-in-fianna-fa-il-talks-michea-l-martin-1485243/


 * Helper201 (talk) 02:50, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

The Allen citation in the Quarterly Review nowhere said that Fianna Fáil was conservative. It only questioned Bertie Ahern's assertion that FF was left wing. Fiachra10003 (talk) 21:16, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Similarly BudgeRobertson1987, which contradicts itself by saying, on one page (p. 137), that Fianna Fáil is "roughly in the centre" and, along with Fine Gael, "essentially conservative". Fiachra10003 (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Requests for comment
Disputed whether conservatism should be included as an ideology on the party in the infobox. More information can be found on the talk page. Helper201 (talk) 04:12, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

No As I have argued above, I don't think the "conservative" description is accurate (see, e.g., https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fianna-f%C3%A1il-more-in-line-with-labour-than-fine-gael-says-howlin-1.3749359, https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/centre-wont-hold-if-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-keep-moving-left-35133828.html, https://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/12/fianna-fail-the-republican-party/, and https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0227/Enda-Kenny-hails-democratic-revolution-in-Ireland). Also, it isn't consistent with the nuanced description set forth in the ideology section of the article. Given what the sources say, and given the concerns that have been expressed for years on this talk page about the difficulties of identifying the party's ideology, I recommend that we leave the ideology section of the infobox blank. SunCrow (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

No... this Party's ideology is now nebulous. ''As memories of civil conflict have faded, however, it has become especially difficult to define the ideological and policy distinctions between the two parties. ... Despite a level of religious conservatism within Fianna Fail, few have classified it as Christian Democrat, but Fianna Fail is no further from the archetypal Christian Democrat party than Fine Gael. ... if there is no difference between the two parties then why do they maintain an independent existence? The argument from the left is that this creates an illusion of choice for the electorate. It allows Fine Gael and Fianna Fail to stifle political competition, preventing the emergence of left versus right politics that occurs in most other European countries.'' https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-weeks-spot-the-difference-is-the-war-ending-for-tweedledum-and-tweedledee-of-politics-37562719.html Hence, I agree that conservatism is NOT a suitable description at this time. Peter K Burian (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes. The claim has multiple citations from reliable sources supporting it, including one from as recently as 2016. The quote given above is from an opinion piece, it is therefore not applicable to use as a citation that discredits this claim. Here are other sources where the party is referred to as conservative:


 * https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sdlp-party-whip-resigns-in-protest-over-partnership-with-fianna-f%C3%A1il-1.3789779
 * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690 (granted this is the view of the SDLP Youth Chairman, so doesn't have more validity than the previous editors comment).
 * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46831690
 * http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2018/11/14/news/risk-of-sdlp-split-is-factor-in-fianna-fa-il-talks-michea-l-martin-1485243/

Helper201 (talk) 17:02, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes it is clear from the majority of academic sources that the party is considered conservative, or at very least has strong elements of conservatism as an ideological trend.--Autospark (talk) 13:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes - We're into "sky is blue" territory here. It's only 18 months since this happened, and prior to that a large rump of the parliamentary party even tried to prevent the referendum happening in the first place. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:05, 3 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment - A pro-life presence in Fianna Fail is a data point in regard to the party's ideology, but it's hardly dispositive. (Also, Helper201's posts above make it clear that the party is not monolithic on abortion.) The many talk page discussions about the party's ideology should make it clear that it's a nuanced question. The dismissive "sky is blue" comment is off base. SunCrow (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2019 (UTC)


 * It's a "datapoint" that's existed in the party since well before 1983... Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Political Position should be Big Tent
There really isn't a set ideology except Irish unity and it has members across the spectrum. Social conservativism alone does not a right-wring party make. The Communist Party of Russia for example, is socially conservative but is often considered far-left and not right-wing or syncretic. 72.72.206.209 (talk) 18:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * We need a reliable source to explicitly call the party big tent. If you can provide one then we could add it using that as a citation. Helper201 (talk) 06:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Restoration of text
Hi Bastun, I don't agree you should have restored this text. It feels clunky and pointed, and it's not in the article's History section. Stara Marusya (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think I might have to agree; upon reflection it is quite clunky for a lead section. If I wasn't Irish, I don't know that I'd even understand what the sentence meant. A more simplistic alternative might be
 * The party was founded as an Irish republican party on 16 May 1926 by Éamon de Valera and his supporters after they split from Sinn Féin. De Valera and his followers were determined to take seats in the Oireachtas while Sinn Féin's policy was to refuse to recognise it. CeltBrowne (talk) 20:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Unless Bastun wants to make the case for its retention, I'll change it back. Stara Marusya (talk) 04:27, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Reduction of Ideologies in Infobox
The ideology parametre looks rather bloated. Due to this, I propose reducing them to a few. Here is the option:
 * Irish republicanism
 * Populism
 * Big tent

ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Conservatism is all that’s needed IMO. It’s a conservative party over-all (despite the ALDE affiliation), and Irish republicanism could literally apply to all the republic’s political parties.— Autospark (talk) 18:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * "Conservatism" (possibly "Liberal conservatism"?) is necessary. I would have "Christian democracy" and "populism" too, while I am strongly against "big tent", which is no ideology, and "Irish republicanism", on which I agree with User:Autospark. --Checco (talk) 06:14, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Conservatism and Christian democracy, or conservatism, populism, Christian democracy would be a fine solution.— Autospark (talk) 08:46, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Irish republicanism could literally apply to all the republic’s political parties
 * No, it could not: That would be both a fundamental misunderstanding of both Irish Republicanism and Irish politics in general. While typically all parties in the Republic of Ireland favour of Irish reunification, Irish Republicanism encapsulates a far greater range of policies, values and goals than Irish reunification on it's own.
 * As of 2023, the parties in the Dáil that are identified as Republican are Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, and Aontú. Fine Gael is traditionally considered "Anti-Republican". Neither the Green Party, Labour, the Social Democrats, People before Profit nor Solidarity would be considered Republican. Hand-waving away the Irish Republican label from "Fianna Fáil - the Republican party" without citing any sources is rather feckless.
 * I would suggest that those proposing to alter the ideology section of the article should cite modern sources to ground their proposals. CeltBrowne (talk) 11:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * In the case of Fianna Fail, "Former ideology" would be more accurate seeing as they currently lack any values beyond holding on to power. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:59, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * We’ve had this before, but there is no rule declaring a “time limit” for references used to describe ideology. FF is a broadly conservative party, as the bulk of existing referenced sources indicate.— Autospark (talk) 13:55, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well I actually trying to hand out an olive branch there by mentioning modern sources, as modern sources would be more flexible in describing Fianna Fáil's ideology, but certain all historic sources are going to describe Fianna Fáil as Irish Republican. CeltBrowne (talk) 14:10, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Apologies; that wasn’t meant to be or sound confrontational. The issue is that FF has been described from terms spanning national-conservative to conservative-liberal, and other than being broadly on the centre-right, it’s arguably a tricky party to nail down the ideology concisely. And if we’re considering modern sources, how recent is modern enough? There’s several variables at play here.— Autospark (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Respectfully, those are sources which are looking at political parties in Europe at a macro level and trying to link them under broad labels, whereas I know that sources looking at Fianna Fáil at a micro level and discussing it's specific ideology will discuss Irish Republicanism, particularly Irish sources.
 * Personally, I don't mind if people want to cut Pro-Europeanism from the list as has been done, or refine Conservative to Conservative-Liberal (provided they can adequately source that), but at this moment in time I don't believe Irish Republicanism can be cut from from the ideology section of the infobox, particularly as Irish republicanism is discussed at length in the body of the article, and also the fact that Fianna Fáil is part of the Irish Republicanism sidebar, also included in the body of the article. CeltBrowne (talk) 09:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * As the above shows, its a complicated question, and therefore not suitable for an infobox. Just blank that parameter. Johnbod (talk) 01:48, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely, a good compromise would be to keep the "Irish republicanism" box, while having in the infobox only the current ideologies. As I wrote above, I am for "conservatism", "Christian democracy" and "populism", all or any of the three, while I oppose any other ideology that would be out of context. --Checco (talk) 20:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely not, per various views above! Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I definitely support inclusion of "Conservatism" and "Christian democracy" in the Infobox.--Autospark (talk) 15:36, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely, "conservatism" and "Christian democracy" should stay, given the discussion above. I would also include "populism" that explains a lot about the party's ideology and attitudes, but I could give up on it. Surely, "Irish republicanism" is redundant. --Checco (talk) 20:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I support:


 * Irish republicanism
 * Christian democracy
 * Conservativism


 * I also think 4 ideologies is far from "bloated" and would be fine with retaining it how it currently is. Helper201 (talk) 21:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I also would like to point out my opposition to "big tent" in the ideology camp, as it is not an ideology. --Checco (talk) 14:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I support changing conservatism to conservative liberalism, the party seems to push economic liberalism while maintaining a more culturally conservative stance compared to Fine Gael, which pushes more economically liberal and culturally liberal ideas. Also it can simplify the confusion on how a "conservative" party is a member of ALDE and Renew Europe. Liberal European groups. 2603:7000:3B40:B500:A100:49BD:8D4D:839F (talk) 01:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)