Talk:Fiat Chrysler Automobiles/Archive 1

Chrysler Group LLC
Both Fiat S.p.A. and Chrysler Group LLC merged into FCA - Chrysler Group LLC no longer exists, Chrysler is now FCA USA LLC, therefore the holding company Chrysler Group LLC is a predecessor to FCA. Swingcar (talk) 08:50, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not correct. Fiat SpA is the sole predecessor to FCA NV. Chrysler Group LLC, a subsidiary of Fiat SpA, has become FCA US LLC, a subsidiary of FCA. — Cloverleaf II (talk) 09:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I second Cloverleaf II] here. Fiat S.p.A. was solely merged into the company, which was renamed Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, and Chrysler Group LLC (which has now become FCA US LLC) remained/remains a subsidiary. [[User:Jaredclce|Jaredclce (talk) 22:25, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Article is premature on several points
This article is a bit premature/confused. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles N.V. (legal entity) has been incorporated in the Netherlands in preparation for a process that will culminate in Chrysler Group LLC and Fiat S.p.A. (and subsidiaries) being merged into Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and becoming an integrated group. This proposed transaction must first be approved by shareholders (AGM in April). The formal merger process and proposed listings of the new entity in NY and Milan will take several months to complete.

Mainstream news sources have not reported some aspects very accurately. Reading the company press release at www.fiatspa.com is advisable. 151.88.22.9 (talk) 17:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I didn't see anything here that contradicts the press release or the international press, and indeed the lead makes clear that October is the target to list on NYSE. Verifiability. Warren (talk) 18:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I largely agree Warren. With the edits made over the past several days, the article now reflects reality much better. (151.88.22.9 (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

But headquarters are in Amsterdam or in London? In one place the article says "London" and in another place the article says "Amsterdam"...--213.60.237.52 (talk) 11:35, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Small changes to lead
I made two changes to the lead:


 * Changed "based in the Netherlands" to "incorporated in the Netherlands" for extra clarity. This is a very international company, so I think it helps to be clear on what is meant by "based".


 * Added a couple of "citation needed" tags in the third para. I don't doubt the accuracy of the claims made, but they feel like original research as they currently stand. Señor Service (talk) 16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Fiat
Shouldn't it logically make sense to leave Fiat SPA its own article, and then say that it is defunct (and put the date on that) and then have FCA be it's own new entry. The purpose of renaming the company was to distance its self from Fiat and be a more "global" company. If you want to keep Fiat merged in you'd also have to merge in the entire Chrysler Group history as it is also part of FCA (and more than a brand like other subsidiaries). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.2.1.113 (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. Since merging Fiat S.p.A. and Chrysler Group LLC to reflect their merger is out of the question, in my opinion the two pages Fiat S.p.A. and Chrysler Group LLC should be left alone and a third article, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, created for the newly formed holding company. In any way, we need to decide what to do here. Cloverleaf II (talk) 16:32, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I was initially a bit concerned at Fiat SpA being merged into FCA, but technically it is right as it is in effect the same organisation that still owns the distinct companies: Fiat Group and Chrysler Group. However, Fiat SpA could work as a historic article and then keep FCA for the 2014 an on. What ever happens to FCA and/or Fiat SpA, there is absolutely no need to merge Chrysler Group into FCA as it is a subsidiary, just like Fiat Group, which is incorrectly rolled up in FCA! Warren (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hold on here -- Fiat Chrysler Automobiles is the successor to Fiat S.p.A., and is NOT a merger between Fiat Chrysler Automobiles. This is a common misconception, but it is actually just Fiat S.p.A. merging into the new company, and Chrysler remains a subsidiary. As a result, I think it is necessary to keep it the way it was before. Chrysler would not be rolled into FCA, as previously said, as this isn't a merger with Chrysler, and they remain a subsidiary. But, Fiat S.p.A. is merging with FCA, and it is the direct successor, and thus should be in. I don't think it is necessary to give Fiat S.p.A. its own page, as this is the direct successor/new company due to the merger (that is not with Chrysler, as Chrysler remains a subsidiary). Jaredclce (talk) 15:22, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * This is an incredibly important distinction. This new company is Fiat as it was before, just with the Chrysler name added to it, with new headquarters, and with a new stock market listing. With that clarification, I see no reason to have done the above. This isn't merging Fiat with Chrysler, this is merging Fiat with Fiat. Jaredclce (talk) 15:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It's a new company.


 * Fiat S.p.A. has over a century of history, I don't see any downsides in keeping it separate from this new holding company it's being absorbed into. When the merger will be finalized in a couple months (it isn't done yet) Fiat S.p.A. will become a purely historical article. – Cloverleaf II (talk) 07:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I understand what you're saying. If that is the majority, which it seems to be, that works, and I won't argue. It just raises the concern about where the Fiat page is directed to. Does it remain with Fiat S.p.A.? Does one put a hatnote on the top of Fiat S.p.A.? Jaredclce (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)


 * A hatnote could be useful.. Though anyone looking for FCA would search for "Fiat Chrysler" I think. Now that there's also a Fiat Group Automobiles page it could be linked as well. – Cloverleaf II (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to change the hatnote. Jaredclce (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

 * See the discussion right above...already been discussed... Jaredclce (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

FCA nationality
There seems to be a slow-moving edit war about this particular issue. I reverted a bunch of edits without an edit summary. One of them changed the nationality of the company to "Italian". I reverted to one edit describing the company as "Anglo-Dutch," (?) which I don't think is right either (at least it had an edit summary...). That's the issue with multinationals, and especially with one like FCA, because it doesn't want to be associated with a particular country. We need a consensus about this issue, defining if we must include a nationality and, in case there's an affirmative answer, what nationality include. Thoughts? --Urbanoc (talk) 18:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I've been more brutal and removed straight away that Anglo-Dutch rubbish from the lead—didn't notice it before. It's probably better to leave the nationality unspecified until (if ever) we manage to find a reasonable definition. To start off: FCA is listed in Milan and New York, and its corporate website can be viewed in Italian or English. Cloverleaf II (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Today the company is Anglo–Dutch, the Netherlands are home for the legal domicile (based holding company) and the UK are the global headquarter (operations). But I agree it is confusing when Italy and the US are the main countries in term of main operations. 178.155.129.51 (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

What if we use term European-American company I the intro? The headquarter are in London, the holding company in the Netherlands, with most of the activities in Italy (FCA Italy S.p.A) and the US (FCA US LLC) and listings in Milan (BORSA ITALIANA) and New York (NYSE). 178.155.129.51 (talk) 19:10, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I think just keeping it multinational corporation suffices. Bahooka (talk) 19:18, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Anglo-Dutch is how Shell is described, so wouldn't be as harsh as Cloverleaf II. While the car marques will still trade on their traditional homeland identity of America and Italy, and the trading of shares in both homelands certainly confuses matters, it is I suppose much easier to say, as Bahooka, a multinational company... Warren (talk) 20:31, 30 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Multinational company sounds ambiguous, why not be precise and just called what it is, a European - American company headquartered in London. Why be vague? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.155.129.51 (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The company is clearly the fusion of an Italian company with an American company. The Italian property has chosen a legal domicile in the United Kingdom only for tax matters. For the same reason, the STMicroelectronics is defined as a French-Italian company despite having its headquarters in Switzerland. Otherwise, Luxembourg would be an industrial powerhouse... --Enok (talk) 11:09, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
 * In the press FCA is described as either Italian or Italian-American. We aren't supposed to make stuff up on Wilipedia.  It is not described as Anglo-Dutch (this is ridiculous) or European-American.  Listing it simply as multinational is lazy.  List it as Italian-Amerixan, as it appears most articles do.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.88.224.230 (talk) 00:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


 * It's so easy to understand its nationality. It is right there in the its very own name that N.V. suffix. That identifies a Dutch company anything else is BS. It's like saying Barack Obama is not American because his ancestors were not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.68.38.46 (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


 * This may be difficult to understand, but in recent decades it has been common for companies to incorporate in various tax havens. FCA NV has done nothing more than incorporate in the Netherlands, it doesn't mean they are a Dutch company.  FCA has nothing to do with the Netherlands besides this incorporation.  For all intents and purposes, Seagate and Accenture are American companies, but they have moved their incorporation around (Bermuda, Cayman Islands, most recently Dublin, Ireland).  All of this is a bit needless to say, because it gets into original research and the best source is what is common usage.  Majority of articles on FCA call it Italian or Italian-American.  You can call it Dutch, but no one else does.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.88.224.230 (talk) 05:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above post. It is only incorporated in the Netherlands -- this is an extremely common business practice -- but it is by no means a Netherlands company...it is either Italian or Italian American (I'd probably lean towards Italian more because still the greatest amount of its business is done by the Italian companies and Chrysler is a subsidiary, whereas FCA is basically still Fiat). Jaredclce (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The company FCA has no nationality, a company is not a citizen of any country. FCA is registered in the Netherlands and in London, it is controlled by the company Exor (registered in the Netherlands) which groups the investments of the italian family Agnelli. FCA operates mainly out of Torino, Italy, and Detroit (?), USA. ... There is no way to put FCA in a just one national drawer. It needs to be spelled out concretely. --L.Willms (talk) 02:55, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Bad introduction
The introductory paragraph in this article is as follows:

"Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, also known as FCA, is an Italian-American multinational and currently the world’s seventh-largest auto maker.[9] The group was established in 2014 by merging Fiat S.p.A. into a new holding company incorporated in the Netherlands with headquarters in London, UK. The holding company, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles N.V., is listed on the New York Stock Exchange and Borsa Italiana in Milan. Exor S.p.A, an Italian investment group owned by the Agnelli family, holds a 44.31% voting interest in FCA, and 29.19% ownership position."

Just  maybe  this paragraph should explain what the Chrysler Corporation had to do with this merged entity??????????Daqu (talk) 02:29, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

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My changes to Subsidiaries - Ferrari and La Stampa
Ferrari was not just disposed of, but it changed from being a business of FCA to be another investment of Exor, the main shareholder of FCA and CNH Industrial (which includes former Fiat Industrial and Iveco, the truck company). Exor is controlled by the Agnelli family company. The Agnellis have now a more direct control of Ferrari instead indirectly thru FCA, where Ferrari would be just one brand among many.

On the publishing side, FCA divesting from La Stampa, I left some red links to not yet existing articles which need to be created. There needs to be some work in the English language Wikipedia on Italian press and media. I suggest not to follow the example of the Italian language Wikipedia to simply rename Gruppo Editoriale L'Espresso, but to create a new article. The article on La Stampa needs also editing to reflect the changes of the past years.

The whole looks as just a reshuffling of the Agnelli empire now acting mainly thru Exor and no longer thru Fiat s.p.a. This should be retraced back from separating the Iveco truck business from Fiat Auto, creating CNH Industrial, which happened already several years ago. Fiat and even more FCA became a company concentrating on passenger cars and light commercial vehicles. --L.Willms (talk)
 * I made some corrections in the names of Italian newspapers and publishing companies, and added that Exor sold their shares in GEDI right away. --L.Willms (talk) 07:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Board of Directors
As far as I know a company cannot sit in the Board as a person would. Therefore, why is Ermenegildo Zegna there with its "consequential" link?! E.Z. is an Italian textile company. True to fact that is also the founder's name, but he died in 1966; therefore, who is the Ermenegildo Zegna sitting in the Board??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brazzo di Lanzo (talk • contribs) 13:05, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
 * according to the CV, a namesake of the company and probably a descendant of Zegna family. Matthew_hk   t  c  13:08, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Italian and American
I know this was discussed before a few years ago. And I don't want to change the introduction. But could it be explained why this is an Italian and American company? Obviously Fiat is historically from Italy and Chrysler from the States. But this particular corporation has head offices in two different countries and stock market listings in three apparently.

Again, not suggesting delete the opening claim. Just explain it in the article. At the moment it seems to be a bit of desperate nationalism.

Thanks.

Nationality
Currently/recently the lead has been changed several times from an "Italian-American multinational" to a "Dutch multinational" with no discussion whatsoever. There is one comment i saw in the archives, which no one replied to, which seems to support the change, but it is old and, as i say, not discussed. I am about to change it back, simply because calling the company flatly Dutch is extremely misleading, if not straight-out wrong. I suggest that we have a bit of a chat to see what we as a community think. For the record, to disagree with the comment currently in the archives, this action is not for nationalist pride or ideals ~ i am neither Italian nor American; happy days, LindsayHello 14:57, 3 September 2020 (UTC)