Talk:Fiddle/Archive 1

How much does a fiddle weigh?
Wow. it seems on 5 April 2004, someone from 147.9.159.142 started this talk page with the above question. Here it is nearly four years later, and I just did a dab of original research: weighed some fiddles, each set up with pegs, strings, post, bridge, tailpiece and endpin. The nicer ones weighed from 450 to 480 grams with Guarneri-type chinrests, which add about 52 grams. Another decent fiddle weighed 525 grams that way. I imagine trade violins ("factory fiddles") run a bit heavier, but when I have one of those in my hands, I will probably be nowhere near a triple-beam balance. __Just plain Bill (talk) 14:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Merging With Violin
Is the fiddle really that important of a term to not just a section of Violin? I was thinking deletion of this article, a condensed "why" on the differences beetween the terms violin and fiddle in the violin, and a redirection to violin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.133.168.223 (talk) 09:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason the Fiddle and Violin series has been broken out into several articles is: that if they were all merged into one page, the resulting single article would be bulky enough to be clumsy to read, especially with a slow dial-up connection. I happen to believe that fiddling and violinning are such different arts that each one merits its own page, even though the same instrument may be used in either case. __Just plain Bill (talk) 18:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal of disambiguation page
I feel like this doesn't need to be a disambiguation page. The only link that is really important is the second one, and it describes the term adequately. I'll redirect after a week. --Liface 23:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just checking - the second one? I'd suggest it redirects to Violin, as the meaning of both terms is explained immediately in the second paragraph and elsewhere in that article.  I doubt people will link the word if they are using it as a verb.  In Ireland especially, I believe 'fiddle' is the usual word for a violin however it is played, so linking to violin would be most consistent with the principle of least astonishment.  Fiddle is a noun referring to the instrument, not a range of styles used in playing it.  There should also be a link back from the Musical styles (violin) article to the Violin article it was forked from.  Just my 2p. --Cedderstk 19:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * And further to the above, it isn't (yet) possible to redirect to a section within an article, so the first word people would be likely to see on clicking on Fiddle would be 'Jazz'. If not disambiguating, then the link should go to the most general page with most context. --Cedderstk 19:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Disagree: The question in disambiguation is not whether most people will be looking for only one of the entries, but whether there are in fact possible meanings. There are, in fact, two meanings if "fiddle:" the noun and the verb. True, we cannot redirect to say the Irish section of Fiddle Playing Styles, but that doesn´t mean the link should not be there: all throughout WP links are made which some would argue would be more usefull if redirects to sections were allowed. The fact that a reader would have to scroll down to what they want to read about should not mean we don´t give them the option of finding what they want to read about. Furthermore, it is informative for those not versed in fiddling to learn immediately (by seeing the disambiguation page) that fiddlers play the violin.


 * The two "fiddle" entries in the disambiguating list were chosen because fiddle is used in both the verb and noun sense in the linked articles, and disambiguation pages serve to show people how a term is used across WP.


 * As for the idea of linking to the "general" term: when someone wondering what fiddling is all about, the Violin article will not be informative. True, there is a link to the fiddle-as-a-playing-style page, but having only this 1] requires that the reader spend time on the Violin page (rather than just, as they might reasonably be expected to do) think, "Ah, there´s no page about fiddling," and 2] makes it easy for those who aren´t familiar with a typical meaning of "fiddle" as a verb to get the impression that it carries with it no more than "play violin" Eitch 10:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

recreated article
I'm not sure how the old disambiguation page came to be, but the 2 places it was supposedly disambiguating to were mostly the same . I've tried to merge them back in here, if I've lost anything I apologise. I have no problem with this being on either or both of those 2 pages, but I don't think the way it was before was the way to go. Ewlyahoocom 09:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you think of putting the template at the top of this article? Naturally the template would then have a link added to Fiddle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Violin&oldid=33982313

__ Just plain Bill 13:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Did it. That's the old template above; this is what it looks like now:

Differences
Paragraphs 3 and 4 of this section essentially say the same thing. The only difference is that para 3 locates the difference to America. Is the bridge modification a uniquely American phenomenon? Could someone who is knowledgeable merge the paras? Ashmoo 01:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

organizing the notable players
how about we scrap my last edit, remove the list of notable players, and move the names under their respective styles? that is, replace america texas ... notable players ... benny thommason

with

america texas notable players: benny thommason ? --Eitch 20:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

... Will Cajun eventually be a heading? If a fiddler is notable in more than one genre/subgenre, should we place them under multiple headings? Nbiehl 18:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say sure, add them under multiple styles - the majority of fiddlers will fit best under only one heading (and cajun's already there, under america) --Eitch 20:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I just sorted most of the listed fiddlers based on the descriptions in the articles about them - so if there are mistakes they need to be corrected in the bio articles too. also, I don't know much about bluegrass sub-styles, but that heading could probably use some dividing up --02:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

styles
I was under the impression that "contest" and "Texas" were more or less interchangable. No? --Eitch 03:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Fiddling
I updated the link to the Bonnie Lasses' eponymous CD. Podbay 03:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Other instruments
Doesn't "fiddle" also refer to related instruments, such as the viola - the latter article certainly implies so. Andy Mabbett 14:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you referring to the viola in folk music paragraph? Personally I don't see the implication (folk music is played on all sorts of instruments without being called fiddling), but this gets at the contentious aspect of "fiddling:" it's clearly doing something specific with a specific instrument, but it seems that for some people the "with a specific instrument" part is less restrictive than for others. My impression is that those involved with violin fiddling (I fear that what I really mean might be "I") need fiddling to be with a violin… and maybe those who 'fiddle' on other instruments would expand the definition to include, say, all of the viols. I don't know any viola-playing fiddlers to ask (I know of a cello-playing fiddler and I call him a chiddler, but that's probably just me). --Eitch 16:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I play or accompany fiddle music on the viola and cello. I call them "the viola" and "the cello." If someone wants to call any member of the violin family a fiddle, or calls a standup bass a bull fiddle, that's OK as long as the meaning is clear enough, but for the purposes of this article I'd rather just say that a fiddle is a violin. In a (17th or 18th century?) Scottish context, violin and cello as "wee fiddle and big fiddle" can be defended, but outside of that, calling a cello (or viola) a fiddle is jocular and non-standard. Or so it seems to me. __Just plain Bill 23:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you both for your replies, but you're telling me what you mean by fiddle; I'm asking what is common usage. Andy Mabbett 23:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, in common usage a fiddle is a violin. The only exceptions I'm aware of is that Scottish "big fiddle" above, and the "bull fiddle." I'm open to having someone show me sources that say something different... __Just plain Bill 00:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Just added an interesting fact
I got it from Mario Pei's The Story of the English Language, but I'm sure there are other sources for it. Fiddle and Violin are etymologically related, both of Germanic origin. marbeh raglaim 13:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

emphasis of position
Reading through the article, I think an important aspect of the style of music that leads to differentiation between "fiddle" and "violin" is missing. While the shape of the bridge is over-emphasized, IMHO, the fact that a "fiddle" is a violin is never in doubt in common usage, but when a violin is played held against the chest or the stomach, it is never refered to as a violin, but exclusively as a fiddle, regardless of what shape its bridge might have. I think the differentiation between "fiddle" and "violin" has far more to do with the position in which the instrument is held while played, than it has to do with the shape of the bridge... Call it OR if that pleases you, but having played violin since age 8, this has always been the distinguishing difference in my world between "playing violin" and "fiddling" ("fiddling around" is a completely different subject, so let's not discuss that here, although I think the verbal phrase "fiddling around" also deserves something noteworthy in this article, not presently here...)... TIA, Tom e rtalk 09:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While some fiddling is done down on the forearm or chest, most fiddlers I've seen play up on the shoulder, a lot like violinists. Because they tend to stay in first position, there is not so much of a tendency for a fiddler to develop a violin hickey, or mark on the neck. Some fiddlers develop a callus on the inside edge of the left thumb instead. I don't have sources to back this up, so I don't feel comfortable putting it in the article. __Just plain Bill 13:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not on the forearm, that position would be impossible with all but the smallest of violins. :-) Tom e rtalk  16:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Smallest of violins, such as a kit, pochette, or dancing-master's fiddle. I routinely play half size fiddles that way when I'm tuning up the kids before a practice. I just played a 16.5" viola that way, well, actually with the lower bout on my bicep, in first position. No chest or stomach involved. But all that is really beside the point, which is: Many if not most fiddlers use the jaw and shoulder in ways that look a bit like a violin hold. Anchoring the instrument lower than the shoulder may be sufficient to call a style fiddling, but it is by no means necessary. __Just plain Bill 03:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggest moving most names of fiddlers to List of fiddlers.
The names of fiddlers now occupy more than half of the lines in the article. In my opinion, it seems useful to keep the list of fiddling styles here as complete as we can get it, but move the fiddlers' names to List of fiddlers, keeping a few outstanding examples in a subset of some representative styles. Comment? __Just plain Bill 12:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I was just about to write the same comment. A couple of the lists are really getting longer than (imo) is appropriate for this article. To that end I've added comment lines asking editors to consider adding fiddlers to the List of Fiddlers rather than to the Notable Fiddlers list, and put a link in the article. I'd certainly support someone trimming down the names on this page. --Eitch 21:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is getting ridiculous. In a couple of days, if no one beats me to it, I will archive that list somewhere and remove it from this article.  There's not room here for everyone on the planet that ever rosined a bow! --Kbh3rd talk  15:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've gone and removed the list from this article and copied it to Talk:List_of_fiddlers. Those interested (a group which does not include myself) can incorporate the appropriate content into that article.  --Kbh3rd talk  20:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
Discussion of the infobox that just showed up is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Instruments. __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what kind of music gets played on it, sometimes a violin is informally called a fiddle.
This has to do with this diff.

Here you see Itzhak Perlman calling a 1714 Stradivarius a "fiddle." You can bet that a lot of what he played on it would not be considered fiddle music in most circles. I prefer not to see a commercial BNET link as a reference in the article, so here it is on the talk page. "Regardless" is definitely the way the sentence was written, and meant. Changing it to "depending" would dilute the significance of the sentence, as I see it. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Dilute the significance"? Hell, it would completely invert the meaning of that sentence. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Playing subharmonics
Within the past several years, violinist Mari Kimura has discovered a new extreme lower register (subharmonics) for the violin. Subharmonics extend the low register to the G on the bottom line of the bass clef. It should be noted that this is an extreme range, meaning that certain skill is required to play in this register.

My proposal is a new pitch range graphic illustrating the possibility of playing an octave lower.

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11249 http://www.marikimura.com/subharmonics.html

Bob (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmmph.
 * I looked at her page, even listened to a little of her Partita. Interesting, certainly. But a serious playing technique? I don't think so. Between the skill evidently needed to produce those tones, and the inescapible fact that they're, well, ugly-sounding, I don't see much of a development here. Clearly, the instrument is being asked to descend into a range that it really can't handle well; this seems to demonstrate that the lower limit (G string) of the violin is a very well-chosen one, and not just arbitrary.
 * But definitely interesting. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 03:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * After thinking it over a few seconds more, it seems to me that the playing the violin article might be an appropriate place for this, if any; perhaps in a section titled "Unusual techniques", "Unconventional techniques" or some such. +ILike2BeAnonymous (talk) 05:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This article needs to be split - competing and contradicting interpretations of "Fiddle"
There seems to be problem with this page: Part of it is far too Anglo-american "fiddle-as-a-violin-but-playing-folk-music" instrument. This is one take on the fiddle, but I would move that all this information be moved to a new article called something like "the violin in folk music" or something along those lines. I understand how rich the topic is, as I am a fiddler (in this sense of the word) myself, but for the purposes of an article, I think this view is too broad.

My problem comes from another activity I do: collect bowed stringed instruments from various parts of the world - I travel a good deal. If you start looking up other bowed instruments from around the world, e.g. Goje, you'll start to see that the term fiddle applies generically to bowed instruments,but when someone is redirected to the current article, it provides little to no additional relevant information. First line: it talks of EUROPEAN bowed stringed instruments...

I propose that this article could be much more interesting if time, effort and research were put into developing the history, evolution and permutations of the fiddle across space and time. It would look at the instrument much more broadly as a family of bowed stringed instruments. There are already good foundations within the article, but they seem to be competing or even contradicted by other segments (to wit: opening line and the section on The fiddle or the violin...).

Takers? Challengers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zapallon (talk • contribs) 20:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * now includes the Goje. Thanks for pointing that out! Other fiddles are represented in Wikipedia; for example, Spike fiddle redirects to Rebab; there are articles on the Kamancheh, the Huqin family, and lots of others.
 * Until someone takes on the task of starting an overarching "fiddles of the world, now and through history" article, I'd suggest adding something in the nature of a hatnote on top of this one to point out that "fiddle" can mean a lot more than folk traditions of playing what might be called the "European" violin, even though it has now spread world-wide. __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:21, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Got to pack up my fiddle for tonight's practice. This time I mean the CGDA one with the 16½" body. :-) Just plain Bill (talk)

"Accessories" and "Strings" sections
I reverted the addition of "Accessories" and "Strings" sections as they didn't seem to add much encyclopedic substance to the article. Music stands? Metronomes? Sheet music? That kind of thing might belong in Playing the violin, but this article is about fiddles and fiddling, with a focus on the difference from violin playing. Likewise, shoulder rests and chinrests are particular to the violin, and addressed in that article. Erhu and rebab players have no need for them.

It's possible that the article could use a "Strings" section, but any text added would need to be supported by cites from a reliable source. Simply listing brands of strings amounts to original research, and is not particularly informative without more info. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Commercial poster, Ningprofiles spamming this section
Adam Sweet aka Ningprofiles aka Emily's Violins started editing this page on the 25th March 2009. During multiple edits he added referece to a carbon fibre bow be manufacturers, and strings he distributes in his shop (fronted by his wife) Emily's Violins. He then deleted a very long standing external link to the Fiddle and Alternative Strings Forum, replacing it with his own Fiddle World link, which is a front for his online shop. His changes were reverted by a fellow wikipedian, so he re-edited the page but this time anonymously - this was again reverted. He has now attempted to create a new section on the page for online communities where he provides his forum as the first link, where alpha-numerically it should be last. This new section has also be reverted back. Madfiddler 03:28, 28 March 2009 (GMT)

Apologies and Edit explanations from Ningprofiles aka Adam Sweet
First of all, let me apologize for the edits I made to the page. I wasn't aware there was a protocol for making the edits. I read the Wikipedia instructions before I began and tried to stay within the format. I understand how it works now and will make contributions here before any outright changes to the page itself. This said, I am not a commercial poster and I am not a spammer. I have a legitimate open/free discussion forum on the Ning site called Fiddle World with over 500 members. I see no reason why MadFiddler aka Mark Knight aka FiddleForum should have exclusivity to linkbacks from the Wikipedia page. Ningprofiles 11:35, 28 March 2009 (EST)
 * Adam, I've left a heads-up regarding edit warring on your talk page. I'll leave the link to Fiddle World standing for now, although it's pretty obvious to anyone who has been watching that you started that forum after annoying enough people on other forums (such as FF & FHO) with blatant commercial activities, including "me too" posts with practically zero content, just to get your signature's link to your business into recent view, again and again.
 * I've visited Fiddle World, and it is painfully slow to load, since you are making use of a "free" hosting service that burdens my browser with various forms of dancing bologna. I would suggest that after FW has become a thriving community, it will be time to link it from Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not an advertising venue, nor a vehicle for social media optimization. __Just plain Bill (talk) 04:15, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Adam, deleting links and replacing them with your own links shows that you are not editing the Wiki for any reason other than self promotion/gain. It also shows that you are untrustworthy to continue editing Wikipedia and I will back up the above warring comment. With only 500 members, Fiddle World does not consitute a notable online resource and therefore should not be included but I will agree with my fellow wikipedian on this. I have also unfortunately found the site extremely slow to load here in the UK. From my experience, you will need to move to a paid for site once you acheive 1500-2000 members. Please note however, that the commercial content of Fiddle World, and the believed intent of its owner, is of concern to me since Wikipedia is a not for profit site, and as you have read, it is not only me who takes this stand. The Fiddle Forum has the same TOC which is why you felt the need to create your own site.madfiddler (talk) 04:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the spate of ningprofile's edits in question did include a few useful contributions. Just now I can think of two: clarification of the "solo fiddling is the norm" statement to mention a single fiddler as part of a group of other instrumentalists, and a bit about Asian bowed-string players referring to their axes as "fiddles." Thanks for that, Adam!
 * The way an editor finds out what does or does not work on the Wikipedia is by being bold in adding material, and observing the response of other editors. Carry on... __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)