Talk:Fifth World

Hi, I just came here looking for information on Tallini as I'm doing research on cyberactivism and conter-power in the network society. It's actually very interesting what they've done in creating a distinct kind of internet system that is being used by people in China and Burma to create alternate web sites that oppose restrictive governments. I suspect that deleting the article was a mistake - and that it should be recreated with an encyclopedic tone and a critical eye to avoid any use as promotion.

--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.47.172 (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the 'Fifth World Nation' stuff as being utterly non-notable. The links to various Cesidio Tallini website, which he kindly provided, show just how thin it all is. My view on this has changed since the original discussion. The Land 13:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article appears to be a jape, like the websites it describes. Marking for deletion.


 * What's a jape? The only word "jape" that I know is in Boontling and doesn't make sense here. -phma


 * a "jape" is joke. -- Tarquin

What number world would an Indian tribe be?(for example the Apaches living in the United States on a reservation) They are American citizens yet live apart.
 * The Fifth World people got the idea of numbering countries wrong. First World means rich, Second World means mostly OK, some are poor, some are rich. Third World means poor, starving.
 * So since the Apaches have TV sets, cars, electricity, schools, medical infrastructure etc they will qualify as First World . -- JeLuF


 * Bizzare. I was told that the first world was the capitalist states, and the second world was the communist states (a Cold War coinage) and then the third world was everyone else. Oh, and the world article agrees with me, so there! Martin

This article looks borderline crankish to me; there are a number of "micronations" out there, and they're an interesting subject deserving of an article, but this one ends up claiming the fifth world to be a "new world order" and "more real" than other countries. Does anyone know if the term "fifth world" is used anywhere in a serious context? Bryan

Similar articles have been posted on the it.wiki too. Following the links I found that all this is about an unknown family, never heard of, which most relevant relationships are with Ilona Staller... An astonishing self-celebration or a notable nonsense exercise. To be deleted with all what is related. G

The author of this "article" is well known in the micronational community as a monomaniacal nutcase. His incoherent, delusional ravings are of no relevance to anyone other than himself and, perhaps, students of psychiatry.

THE AUTHOR & TRANSLATOR OF THE ARTICLE RESPONDS:

I believe the Fifth World is a valid concept, and certainly my nation is real and warranting a lot more than outright censorship. And if I'm delusional in the micronational community, what makes you think that they aren't? After all, their nations are more virtual than mine.

The Fifth World also enjoys some respect from some politicians very high in the Italian government, which is a lot more than the micronational community can brag about, and I also, along with another person, went to the pain of writing the info in both English and Italian, and smaller articles have been edited in French, and translated into Spanish, Portuguese, German, and Japanese. Not bad for a multilingual encyclopedia, which is what Wikipedia is supposed to be.

HM Cesidio Tallini, Father of the Fifth World


 * 1) don't shout - avoid all caps and bold
 * 2) don't disturb, please, it's Christmas, not yet Carnival.

Yes, the 5th World is a real concept, but not one our 1st World masters approve of. Vera Cruz


 * No, it's a completely different matter: we are only still waiting for something serious on the topic. Add it, and it will stay in the article as long as true.

I've never heard of this. That's not saying it isn't real. But anyone can create a bunch of websites about something & then claim it's real. On Wikipedia we have to be careful about this sort of thing. See What Wikipedia is not -- Tarquin 00:10 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Native American tribes which are unrecognized by the US government and which do not recognize the soverignty of the US government are part of the fifth world. The same would apply to native Australians, South Americans, or Europeans for that matter. Vera Cruz


 * These are ethnic groups, I believe...
 * Hey, Vera, did you know the "king" just wrote in the it.wiki that Wikipedia is going to be "severely punished" for this "censorship" when he will judge the live and the dead ones? Are you sure you are correctly considering the real weight of all this "campaign"? Buon Natale [G]


 * I don't think anyone is doubting that -- the question is rather: who uses the term "fifth world"? -- Tarquin

Ethnic group is not appropriate. Ethnic group is not a political term regarding the status of an organization. I've seen the term in books and I use it myself, so I hardly think it's a crank term. Just npov it.Vera Cruz
 * Okay, please, would you be soo kind to explain us what is a fifth world, then?
 * I'm pretty sure you will have a scientific approach to the matter (even if the topic is not scientific in itself - but we do use to behave this way here for any topic...)
 * Thank you in advance [G]

G-go find some aborigines in the Amazon jungle that have never even heard of South America and think snow is evil, those people are Fifth-Worlders. Likewise, go find a bunch of hippies in LA that insist they are part of the Sacred Brotherhood of the Plateau People, those people are either fifth-worlders or micronationers, a somewhat arbitrary line divides the two as this is a pretty unscientific and ephemeral subject. Vera Cruz

Can we please lose this crank article or move it to meta? Mintguy


 * I would certainly support a move to meta. V.C., I don't think your comparisons with aboriginal peoples is correct. If anything, they would be considered real fifth worlders, while a guy who declares his living room to be an independent kingdom ... well ... need I say more? Danny {who is about to designate a sock that missed the laundry pile as the flag of his independent bedroom republic. An article is on the way.

You are completely missing the point. A guy who declares his living room to be an independent kingdom is the king of a micronation. There is a difference between the Sixth World or NonExistant World and the Fifth World or unofficial world. I urge you all to refrain from declaring that articles are crank, it's rather hostile. Also Danny, I am assuming that you now agree with me since we both seem to believe that aborigines are "real fifth worlders". Vera Cruz

Moving this to meta is absurd...go look up Sealand, they've damn near gotten official UN recognition. Vera Cruz

Actually Arbiriginal are Fourth World. Be nevermind... HMCT

Not according to the Navajo Vera Cruz


 * I cannot believe anyone that anyone can give this stuff crednce. That and the Spartacus stuff. It's just a bunch of loonies trying to popularise their crank ideas. Ohh and VC go look up the 4th world. Mintguy

You are very rude Mintguy. You should try to be more NPOV. Vera Cruz


 * This is a talk page not an article. I'm meant to have an opinion here. Mintguy


 * Quote from the it.wiki:
 * ''Wikipedia fara' i conti con me in futuro, quando giudichero' i vivi e i morti, come Dio ha promesso del suo servo.
 * SM Cesidio Tallini''
 * Ask for someone to translate it, then we can speak about npov :-) [G]

Fifth World is indigenous to the WWW. Fourth World is earthly... HMCT

You aren't meant to be rude mintguy. I believe Sealand qualifies as 5th world no? Vera Cruz

Not really - Fourth World (and pirates). HMCT

Well, pirates is a pov term. I would very much like for somebody to look at the current article Fifth World and point out if there is anything specific they disagree with, rather than disagreeing simply because one does not support the Fifth World Movement. I would like to note that the article states that critics view Fifth Worlders as fringe radicals intent on disrupting the international balance, you can feel free to add to that. Vera Cruz


 * yes, that Tallini really frightens me...
 * There isn't a consensus among Wikipedians about the simple existance of this article, that is a serious issue.
 * I asked you to write a serious article and you answered me that it was impossible because it was not a scientific topic.
 * Do you need other reasons? [G]

Yes G. This is not a scientific subject, there is no 2+2. This is an article which discusses other people's opinions. Other people believe that the term Fifth World is useful for differentiating between the sort of thing that they call Fourth World which they made up to differentiate between the Third World which they made up as well. Why would it matter if there was a consensus among Wikipedians? All that matters is npov. As far as I can tell, it's pretty npov. Vera Cruz


 * In case you haven't noticed, we in Wikipedia take care about consensus. [G]


 * are you suggesting that every article that lacks 100% consensus should get deleted?

The dispute deserved a separate paragraph. Actually Pictland-in-Exile is Fourth, and our friends, and even they consider us Fifth World. Some Native Americans consider themselves Fifth, but that is inaccurate. Fourth is TERRESTRIAL. Fifth is CYBERTERRESTRIAL (but not cranky). HMCT

Who is to say that the Navajo are inaccurate? Vera Cruz

The Cesidian Calendar is a scientific calendar, and a product of Fifthworlders (quintomondisti) Gianfranco. The Gregorian Calendar is hardly scientific. The Navajo aren't inaccurate if they feel they are more cyber-Americans than just plain Americans. HMCT.

hmct-the pov argument that the 5th world refers only to cyber-entities (which of course the Navajo are anyways) has been reflected in the article, expand on it if you feel it is not sufficiently explained. Vera Cruz


 * My grand-mother, at the beginning of the 20th century, had a young servant who was a very serious girl from a small village in the Apennines. When electricity arrived, and they had their first light bulbs at home, they could stay a few hours more than before in the kitchen, reading and talking. One evening, the servant was asked to turn the lights off for the first time, because they had to go to sleep. My grandma in fact quietly went to bed. But hours were passing, and the servant still hadn't reached her, as she was used to do to tell her Buonanotte. So my grandma went back to the kitchen and found her standing on a chair, her face red, desperately blowing on the lamp, but the lamp was still lit.
 * Now, the difference is that the above fact really happened, it is scientifically verified, but I would never make an article in Wikipedia about it.
 * And that's really all [plunk] [G]

If it's scientifically verified, it should definitely go into an article. I totally fail to see your point.Vera Cruz

Some folks also believed Galileo Galilei wasn't "scientific" enough at his time, but why should people have to die before they see their work acknowledged, Gianfranco? Isn't that a problem already in Italy? HMCT

I'm in favor of deletion. The Fifth World as founded by Cesidio Tallini (sorry pal, I don't recognize the "HM") is reminiscent of a web-based cult. The guy pronounces himself king of his "world", with his "religion", and his "commandments"; has a fixation on an Italian ex-porn star.

His personal web page was enough for me to come to a decision. Heaven's Gate anyone?

- Prefect

Cults deserve articles too. Vera Cruz

I would not object to a short article describing what a fifth world nation is, however my reading of the article that was here was that it really only said what fifth world wasn't (fourth nation or micronation). I am very happy for an article in that form to be deleted. -- SGBailey 13:08 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

Sometimes, knowing what something isn't can be very informative. Vera Cruz

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Vera, I see very little evidence that the "Fifth World" consists of more than one man's fantasies. Yes, there are lots of little websites: but they all seem strangely similar, and appear to me to be consistent with being the work on one person. One man can neither be a cult nor a nation. There's a perfectly good micronation article for this sort of thing: both controversial semi-real things like Sealand and also pure fantasy nations. The Anome 13:36 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

All of the Fifth World stuff is one user having a laugh and using Wikipedia as their personal playground. It all needs to go. 194.117.133.118 13:39 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

I have been familiar with this term for several years now and it has been used by numerous native american groups, particularly the Navajo. The question here is not whether the Fifth World is a term which should be explainer here, the question is simply one of determining how to explain the relationship and differences between the Fourth World, micronations, virtual states, and the Fifth World. I have never heard of the Fifth World Council or Cesido Tallani, but your disagreement with their viewpoints hardly invalidates this term. Vera Cruz


 * The article as it now stand appears to be more worth than previous efforts. Mintguy

Regarding Navajo belief... if there are any experts on this, don't they have some kind of description of the four worlds before the fifth one? My understanding of the Navajo mythology was that the original members of the tribe (or whatever) traveled through the four worlds before reaching this one. The four worlds preceding the fifth world supposedly relate to the early Navajo's trek across the Bering land bridge, northern Canada, etc., before they reached the area now known as the United States.

If anyone has any more insight on this I would be very interested -- it could be a salient addition to the article. -- goatasaur 03:17 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)

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The article says "In the last century" .. is this the 20th century, or the 19th? Can we be more specific about names and dates? -- The Anome 14:25, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

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