Talk:Fin de siècle

Use of Expression/Which Century
It seems to me like there's some confusion between the definition of the expression 'fin de siècle', the definition of the expression 'turn of the century' and a description of a specific period of time in Europe. Definitions belong in wiktionary. This article should be restricted to commentary on the French expression that refers to a specific period of time in Europe. Danorton 23:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danorton (talk • contribs)

Removed this "true definition must be" POV from the article:
 * As such Fin de Siecle is a rather retrospective label and has been added to periods almost at will, the true Fin de Siecle by definition must be that of Europe in 1880-1910, though late Roman literature also has a good claim to this badge.

Also the "added to periods almost at will" sounds rather cheap & unfounded --Francis Schonken 01:58, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The expression turn of the century was used during the Napoleonic Wars. So how can this only apply to the 19th Century??? Wallie 19:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I also validated the late Roman period...so please read before you speak, and I refute it as being unfounded.

Removed: "When used as an adjective, the phrase is most properly turned into a hyphenated word: One speaks of a fin-de-siècle attitude."

This is true of all phrasal adjectives when placed before the noun - if it appears after the noun it shouldn't be hyphenated. Damiancorrigan 13:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

To the phrase about the 19th-century use of the word, I added some dates that would bring the periodization into line with German Wikipedia. Poldy Bloom 07:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't a literal reference to "end of the century" be "fin du siècle"? My impression had been that omission of the article drew essentially the same distinction as between "late 19th century" and "the late 19th century" in English, with no requirement for hyphens in the former usage.  Vaughan Pratt (talk) 19:44, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

More neutral uses?
What do we say about more general uses such as "Pocket doors were popular at the turn of the century, but fell out of favor"? Here there seems to be no question of bringing up decadence or anything of the sort, but the article skips over that usage so quickly. It seems worth a line or two more space, to me. Lawikitejana 02:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

this is the English language Wikipedia
Shouldn't the article title be Turn of the century? Fin de siècle is not the common English usage, and is not in our parlance. Kingturtle (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No. "Fin de siecle" is very definitely the acknowledged term for the phenomenon - if it's not, then academics worldwide have been messing with our heads. "Turn of the century" is more of a chronological term, whereas "fin de siecle" describes the specific aura of decadence and doom. It's a borrowed term carried over into English, like "macho" or "QED". HonestTom (talk) 12:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok. fair enough. but then Turn of the century should be its own article, not a redirect here. Kingturtle (talk) 16:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. "Turn of the century" isn't really enough of a recognized term to deserve its own encyclopedic entry; it is simply a phrase that doesn't refer to anything specific. The phrase being referenced in this article has specific social and political connotations. Metsfanmax (talk) 14:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Er. I disagree :) "Turn of the century" retrieves over 9 million google hits; "Fin de siècle" only 1.3 million. Here's a US Library of Congress website for example that uses Turn of the Century for a specific time frame. I can give you dozens of more examples. Kingturtle (talk) 14:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Fin de siècle and turn of the century have different connotations. FDS is associated with a European cultural movement, whereas TOTC is (at the very least) a broader term. Renaming is definitely the wrong move (as it is based on a misunderstanding) - if you want to start a new article on TOTC, well, there's no objection to that but this article title should stay. A low number of Google hits does not mean that a term is inaccurate; nor does a lower number of hits in absolute terms mean that one term should be "replaced" by another. And Google is not the Benchmark of All Things. FDS is a specific term, check out the specialist literature listed in the article.

David WC2 (talk) 09:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, Kingturtle might find it amusing that the first Google search result is this Wikipedia entry. So much for it not being in our parlance. Metsfanmax (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this argument is confusing. It seems that people are confused about what the argument is even about, whether it's about which term is more accurate, which term is more common, or whether the two terms even mean the same thing. And Metsfanmax seems to even reverse his whole position, first claiming that it "isn't really enough of a recognized term" and then joking "so much for it not being in our parlance"! For what it's worth, I not only support the idea of "turn of the century" getting a separate entry, but I'm shocked that it's even considered a debatable issue. The terms "fin de siecle" and "turn of the century," regardless of their literal meanings, clearly have very different connotations, as has already been pointed out in this discussion, and it's silly for people looking up facts about the Turn of the Century (in its common usage) to be re-directed to an article about a European artistic movement; I assure you that most people looking up "turn of the century" are interested in a time period (which, unlike the formal definition of "fin de siecle" according to this article, is NOT limited to Europe), not in how French artists were affected by self-awareness. Minaker (talk) 05:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't reverse my argument. I said that the English "turn of the century" isn't really a specific phrase with any meaning, and that the term "fin de siecle" has meaning in the culture of English-speaking nations separate from the general term turn of the century. My point was that the first Google search result for "turn of the century" is this Wikipedia article, indicating that Kingturtle was incorrect to say the term is not in our parlance. Metsfanmax (talk) 21:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see Kingturtle has removed the redirect and started a new separate page on turn of the century, so hats off to him :)

David WC2 (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"aughts"
The term "aughts", as in the '00 decade of a century, redirects here, yet the term isn't used anywhere in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.45.183 (talk) 07:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That was also my impression. I can't think of a reason why it should redirect here, as opposed to this decade. Considering that no reason has been mentioned in nearly two years, I think it should be safe to change the redirect. jr98664 (talk) 04:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

First Syllable ... Sounds Like ...
First, may I suggest that someone more familiar with the international symbols add a pronunciation clue to this page?

Second, I disagree whole-heartedly with the idea of splitting fds and totc pages. If we start banning all foreign expressions from the "English" Wikipedia pages, where will it end? Beside that, mon amis, if a definition of fds is only in the French pages, an Anglophone reader would have to learn how to parlez before being able to read the definition of it.

Terry J. Carter (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I also agree that it should not be split, and agree with the above poster that wiki should not become completely monoglot /monocultural. A bit of general education (and by that I also mean foreign languages) isn't such a bad thing after all.

David WC2 (talk) 06:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

New lead
I like the new lead section: it is comprehensive and gives a good overview of the topic, as well as a good sense of its importance. Nice! :)

David WC2 (talk) 06:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Is Wikipedia schizoid?
Some-one not familiar with this period of history reading this article would see a totally different world than some-one reading the Wik article on the Belle Époque, even though the latter temporally incorporates in the former. Can the two articles be co-ordinated some-how and then linked?Kdammers (talk) 06:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Another editor has now done that for both articles. Thanks. Kdammers (talk) 04:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I figure FdS was just a few reactionaries in the literary elite of, ahh, Nattering nabobs of negativism struggling to look relevant in an age when the people who make things happen were busy inventing things like an overseas empire, a state-dominated education system, quick firing gun, reinforced concrete, motion pictures, impressionist art, and so forth. Indeed a crisis was abuilding that would soon wreck everything, but "degenerate art" and their other silly targets had little to do with it. All of which would be pleasant to put into article space if it weren't just my own frivolous opinion.

== Relations of Fin de Sciècle themes with, Scientific Racism, Aryanism, Nordicism, White supremacy, Eurocentrism, Eugenics, Nationalism, Social Darwinism, Counterculture, Subcultures, Historical Eras, French Third Republic 1880s, 1890s and Reactionary ==

Fin de Sciècle theme are very related with ideas of Aryan racial superiority, White Supremacy, Nordic Racial Superiority, Social Darwinism, Eugenics and ideals of European Racial and Cultural Superiority and are intrinsically reactionary views of World which is related with 19th Century European Philosophy, whose this is a philosophical and artistic movement that started in 1880 and happened in the 1880s and 1890s decades during the time of French Third Republic.

But the editors views my editions in the Category:Fin de sciècle as inappropriate to categorize the Fin de sciècle themes, but Fin de sciècle themes is Related with categories such Aryanism, Nordicism and Reactionary.

189.69.168.196 (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC).
 * "my editions in the Category:Fin de sciècle" There is no such category. Dimadick (talk) 12:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any reliable sources to support that each of these very nice epithets is a DEFINING characteristic of fin de siècle art and culture? Aryanism, nordicism, eugenics etc. are not even mentioned on the article. It is even quite absurd to argue that artists who were in majority French would have supported "Nordic Aryan" superiority, whatever that is, at a time when revanchism and hostility towards anything Germanic was a dominant feeling in France. Place Clichy (talk) 03:05, 27 January 2024 (UTC)