Talk:Final Fantasy (video game)/Archive 1

Questioning edits
I question the edits made by 259 in the "Story" section. While the sequence you describe was probably the most common way to progress through the game, it is by no means necessary, and that's why I fudged a lot of those details. One could get the Airship and afterwards undergo transformation before defeating the Four Fiends in any order. Thunderbunny 05:13, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Which was released first?!
Was it the MSX2 version or NES, I remember reading on the Square Co. page that the MSX2 was first but on here it's saying the NES version was first, it makes more sense that the MSX2 version was first since Square had a history of making games for PC, not to mention that the NES version was more poupular so they assumed that one was first... --FlareNUKE 23:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

EDIT: Oh wait, sorry forget this...

Shall I throw up a screenshot from the American NES version? For English speaking readers, it's probably the first version they saw, and the first one on the North American continent anyway; it seems conspicuous in its absence. 132.162.213.109 16:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Weird screen shot
What's the deal with the weird screenshot of the light warriors fighting the Lich? Unless it's possible in the Japanese version for a pc to show its death graphic while still having HP, this seems like a doctored or bugged image. Also odd: the Knight has, at most, slightly more than 100 hp, since he isn't bending over. Since this is presumably a screen shot from the final dungeon of the game, it seems rather odd for the warrior to such a freakishly small amount of hp. Can anyone explain what's up with the image? If not, I'm just going to replace it.


 * Agreed, that shot shouldn't be possible, it must have been either doctored or played by someone using cheat devices. Replacement is recommended. LifeMega 21:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Also, we might want to address a previous comment and see about replacing it with an English screenshot. – Seancdaug 07:21, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Secret Location
There is a level-up location that is available extremely early in the game. This area is accessible once you can enter Pravokia. You can even access it before beating the pirates, although you might need their ship into Elfland in order to buy at least one Silver sword and one Lv 3-4 spell.

Should we include the following in the article?

Recommended equipment: Definitely the silver Sword for everyone that can wield it, one CABIN or TENT, FIR2, FAST, and CUR2 and the best armor you can afford. HARM2 is optional since it will not be 100% effective.

Once you have all this, head back to Pravokia. From there, on the world map, go a little south to find the path that goes inmediately east. After about 40secs walking, you will come accross a white mountain right in the middle of the land, with the option of going north and south-east i believe. Go north. All the way. After about 1-2 minutes of walking you will reach the very northernmost tip of the continent, it looks like a hand pointing north, displaying the "1" sign. The finger is two tiles wide. You will know you are in the right place because 2-4 tiles north you can see the southernmost part of the north continent.

Now, you will notice there is a 2 x 2 forest in the very tip of the continent (hand). Walk into it. Once you draw a fight, here is what you can expect:

1-3 ZOMBULLS  (likely 2, about 30% of the time) 1-4 GIANTS         (likely 3, about 45% of the time) 5-8 FROSTWOLF (likely 5, about 20% of the time) 1 TREX                 (1, about 5% of the time)

Depending on your level, you might want to only fight ZOMBULLS to begin with. They are by far the most profitable option, and the weakest, and you can harm them with your mages (They are weak against HARM and FIR2). The FROSTWOLF will inflict heavy damage to the party with their frost spell, so run inmediately. GIANTS & REX will be very tough, since at the start they can kill mages with one blow.

Once the fight is over, you will probably neef to head back to the INN in Pravokia. Use the tent/cabin you bought for a quick fix, and you only have 1-2 party members surviving, watch out for the ghouls on the way back that have paralyzing hits. While they don't do much damage, the fact that you are down in numbers and they come in packs, can make a suprised battle your last one; since they can paralyze your surviving group in one round. Dragonlord kfb 18:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but Wikipedia is not a strategy guide. Unless this had some other significance, I don't recommend including it in the article. ~ Hibana 22:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It's most likely a bug -- its encounter matrix is the one for the part of the map north across the ocean, so they probably missed the enemy mapping coordinates by just a bit. It's one of the very few game bugs that can be significantly exploited (very significantly, in fact). I'll let concensus determine the relevancy of mentioning it, but I certainly wouldn't detail the strategy -- just mention its existence and the fact that it can have a significant effect. 70.81.173.170 21:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * While it is a significant strategy, that's all that it is. To fit it into the article, we would either have to go into excessive detail on random encounters, excessive detail on leveling up, or incorporate a list of bugs/strategies. The first two are definitely not notable enough to include, and the third would probably get tagged . It's one of those things that probably fits better in the wikia. Anomie 22:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent info added
I do not think any of the recently added information is particularly useful, especially in light of going toward a Featured Status. Most of the added information will have to get trimmed away as it is not well written, and there are no references or newly added information among it. Regular contributor thoughts? Judgesurreal777 02:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree; I dislike the new inclusions, as well. &mdash; Deckill e r 02:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should revert or remove it, I'm sorry to say, as I dont like removing peoples contributions, but it is not helpful. Judgesurreal777 02:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't mind reverting it. I tried to get some responses from the new edits on the WPFF page, but nobody even bothered to respond until now. &mdash; Deckill e r 03:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What I really want is a great article, not to pump up my ego, so do as you see fit. I disagree with your assessment; I think my version is a distinct improvement on the earlier version.  For a seasoned RPG player it does not convey much more information, but for someone who has zero or limited experience with RPGs it does.  If I were to try again I might not target it quite so low, though.  I have one request, that you not revert but instead rewrite from scratch.  My prose may not be brilliant, but neither was the old prose.  If you rewrite chances are you'll do better.
 * One other thing: This article is poorly organized. It should probably be structured something like this:
 * Development (which would be limited to the NES version; since we're the English language wikipedia, we should include the English localization)
 * Story
 * Gameplay
 * Impact
 * Ports and updated versions
 * As it is now the article jumps into the gameplay without first explaining why the game is interesting, and I think that's a mistake. 141.211.120.199 03:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Your attitude is admirable, you should get a user name and start contributing with use Final Fantasy fans :) Judgesurreal777 23:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
If you check the history, we recently had some vandalism from "69.114.140.217" I replaced his vandalism (Calling us all nerds) with the last good version of the site. I think we should get a final, verifyable version of the info, and get this topic locked.

Caikun 23:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what you mean, as an article like this will always need to be improved or updated occassionally. Having to revert one random instance of vandalism shouldn't really warrant page protection, as it's an ongoing, inevitable fight. ~ Hibana 00:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Laputa
Wasn't the Lefeinish civilization inspired to some degree by Laputa: Castle in the Sky? At least in the GBA Dawn of Souls remake, the similitudes are remarkable, right down to the robots, levistone, and such. Jaimeastorga2000 13:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Customization
"Each Light Warrior has eight inventory slots, with four to hold weapons and four to hold armor."

Really? Four weapons? What is that, swordchuks or something? Gene S. Poole 01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Each one can carry four different weapons and four different types of armor. Some weapons have spells tied to them that when used in battle, will activate their spells. PsychicKid1 13:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy Staff List
There is no need to make a staff list without commentaries or additional context, right? In the Notable Staff Members List, I added the word "debut" on the names as well. Do you know if anything for this is good or bad for adding the staff list? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sjones23 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC). As a matter of fact, listing the staff list is trivial and should not be needed for this page. The important staff members are listed in the infobox.Sjones23 16:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy vs. Dungeons and Dragons
D&D is mentioned in the customization section, but should there be a seperate section on the numerous similarities between FF and D&D? Such as the spell casting system, certain monsters that were taken directly from D&D (Mindflayer, Sahagin, Otyugh, etc.), the setup on how all actions are declared before resolving the turn of battle, the dilineation between what equipment can be equipped by what class, the very classes themselves, etc... --Daedalus 17:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent shifts.
This article previously shifted between the NES and alternate versions a bit haphazardly. I tried to make it so that it uses the NES terms by default with alternate localizations in parens for consistency; should be clearer which one is which that way. While a decent argument can be made that another version should be picked as "canonical," considering that new versions keep coming out and tend to have their own articles, I think that the NES one is probably the safest bet. Besides, that's how most of the references were already.

Also, it's an old discussion, but it still applies: can we get a new screenshot that isn't weird for the Japanese version? SnowFire 02:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There you go. Sorry for the three dead guys, I had to use a save from a Solo BM challenge quest. I also replaced the non-NES image in the Plot section. --Anomie 00:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I revised some of the Gameplay and Plot sections to use the NES names. I have confirmed all my changes against the actual NES game. Changes are:


 * Thief does not go early during combat, it's actually completely random. If this is different in a remake, say so in a future edit.
 * All armor is in one of the 4 types. Armor, robes/shirts, and bracelets are all "Armor", the ProCape is a shield, the Ribbon is a helmet, and the ProRing is a gauntlet. If this is different in a remake, say so in a future edit.
 * "Warriors of Light" are always called "Light Warriors".
 * "Lefeinish", not "Lufenians".
 * The Sky Castle is always called the "Floating Castle".
 * I could not find any timespan given for the darkening of the Earth and Fire Crystals, although the original wording sounded wrong (wind 400 years ago, water 200 years after, earth & fire 200 years after that, which leaves no time for prophesies and such). I changed it to correspond to what the 12 Sages say about it.
 * "Mount Deurgar" is mentioned by two people: an elf in Elfland's castle calls it "the Cave of Dwarf", and Jim the Dwarf in Melmond calls it the "Dwarf Village".
 * "Cavern of Earth" is "Earth Cave", according to various citizens of Melmond.
 * "Citadel of Trials" is "Castle of Ordeal" according to the dragons.
 * Somehow the legend of the Light Warriors lives on even after they change the past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anomie (talk • contribs) 17:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Final Fantasy I-II
There appears to have been a compilation of two games on Famicom. I found a commercial:.
 * Yes, it is indicated in the first paragraph of the article. Kariteh 20:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquote
The link is broken. (Feel free to remove this comment when it's fixed.) - JustAUser 84.182.93.154 19:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

exelent article
why not? 213.100.71.136 10:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

"Final Fantasy (video game)" versus "Final Fantasy I"
Am I missing the discussion on this move? This is the last I can find on the issue, and the consensus there is "Final Fantasy (video game)". Anomie 17:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there doesn't appear to have been any discussion of this before it happened. I've re-moved the page and changed all the new "Final Fantasy I" wikilinks back to "Final Fantasy (video game)". -TPIRFanSteve 03:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Outdated info
From the article: "Square Enix plans to release this version of the game for North American mobile phones sometime in 2006." Did this release happen? Maybe someone should update that bit. I'm not familiar with North American cell phone games myself... Davhorn 06:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are we STILL using that outdated translation?
Some of the names don't even make sense. Why are we still referring to things in the plot section with the NES English terms? They tend to be far from the Japanese original... 208.101.136.230 17:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the English wikipedia. Japanese one is next door. Kariteh 18:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is structured such that it discusses the original English version first, then the differences introduced in the many remakes. And since we do that, that version's names are the obvious ones to use. Anomie 18:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

External Link + Glitches
Hello, I would like to suggest we add a link to the RPGClassics shrine for the NES version. Also, there's quite a few glitches in the NES version that may be worth mentioning. Let me know if that sounds good.

Thanks.

Lockshaw13 14:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)lockshaw13


 * Linking here to the link you would want to include would be helpful. A list of glitches would be trivia and/or game guide information, so IMO they would be not worth mentioning. Anomie 16:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's another link that I think should be considered: http://collector.5gigs.com/index.html. It has a ton of info on all the versions of Final Fantasy including the glitches present in the NES version...I can't add a link to the Wiki page from the RPGClassics shrine since I have nothing to do with that site. Lockshaw13 20:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstood: what is the link you want to add to this article? You might also want to bring these links up on the WikiProject talk page, especially since I don't believe they meet the WikiProject guidelines. Anomie 15:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi all. With regard to glitches, might it be worth at least mentioning them briefly in passing (since there are a rather epic number of them), collectively if not individually, especially to point out that one of the significant (?) improvements in Final Fantasy Origins was fixing the majority of them? Origins refining the actual gameplay by removing quite a few glitches seems like a notable (and not merely trivial) detail, not entirely unlike other mechanical changes referenced in the article. Then again, I'm a bit less familiar with notability, so maybe Anomie's comments above took this angle into account?

Additionally, and this is something that doesn't relate to glitches or external links, and really is somewhat nit-picky, but there is a phrase in the "Playstation" section that reads:

"Saved game data takes up one block on the PlayStation memory card, which means that up to fifteen games can be saved onto each memory card, a major improvement"

When you consider the dynamics of a memory card as opposed to saving on a cartridge, is being able to save 15 games on a memory card really that much of an improvement, let alone a major one? It sounds like a lot of flexibility, but it is difficult to conceive of most players purchasing individual memory cards for each game, and using 15 blocks means that that memory card cannot be used for any other games. While in a strict sense this is still better than the single-save cartridge, I felt this phrase was in some sense misleading when I read it, as though simply having a memory card enabled 15 times the saving capacity without really conveying that to fully exercise this capacity means to dedicate the card to a single game. Maybe it's just me, though. Any other thoughts on this? Ashelia 02:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Mentioning that the various glitches were fixed in the section about Origins might not be out of place, especially if you can find a review in a reliable source that mentions that, but listing them all out I still feel is something more suited to Gamefaqs than here.
 * I don't know (or care) much about the Playstation version, but "a major improvement" should definitely be removed and the rest of the sentence should probably be reworded to emphasize that more than one "save slot" is available without getting into details about memory blocks and such. Anomie 03:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I've adjusted the "major improvement" by removing in favor of a comparative parenthetical that indicates an NES cartridge could only accomodate 1 save file (yeah, I know, it took me half a year to get around to this). Additionally, I noticed in the customization there was a segment that read:

"Each weapon has three statistics: damage, chance to hit bonus, and critical hit chance. Certain weapons are also more effective against monsters of particular types or monsters weak against particular elements. In the original NES version, these properties and the critical hit chance were not used due to bugs, but these were fixed for later revisions. "

The last sentence implies that the critical hit rate bug was fixed in subsequent versions along with elemental/monster type properties when in fact it was not. Additionally, the entire section can be misleading insofar as it could imply that there was no critical hit rate and thus, no critical hits in the game, when in fact the index number was erroneously used. I'll go ahead and make an edit to correct this inaccuracy (though I would love to find a Wikipedia Reliable source for this, I'm not quite sure what would qualify, and this segment is currently unsourced anyway...) [Edit: Oops, forgot to sign this initially...] Ashelia (talk) 06:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposed move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move debate was Do not move. Additionally, Final Fantasy (series) was moved to Final Fantasy instead. Anomie 15:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This is the first product to be named Final Fantasy, and the game that started it all. It is highly unlikely anyone will be surprised to find this game at Final Fantasy. Currently Final Fantasy is just a redirect. ~ JohnnyMrNinja  10:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose When someone types in "Final Fantasy", do they mean this game or the entire series? I think the current setup is appropriate. Anomie 13:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Why is Final Fantasy not located at Final Fantasy to begin with? Judgesurreal777 15:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Because at some point there was a discussion and an editor proposed to have both (series) and (video game) articles to avoid ambiguity. Kariteh 15:29, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's the recent archived discussion in question. &mdash; Blue. 01:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, the dab message at the top clears up ambiguity... that's what it's for. The opening line also easily distinguishes the two. --Teggles 04:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. It very sensibly goes to the series, and should stay that way. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 23:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Presently, it easily distinguishes the first game from the series. &mdash; Blue. 01:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. If anything, I think that the series should be located at Final Fantasy, not the first installment; this is what most people will be looking for. Also consider that the name "Final Fantasy" refers not just to the games, but to a property which now includes films as well. LordAmeth 14:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose: It's irrelevant whether or not this started "it all" (i.e. the Final Fantasy collection of video games). The series is also named Final Fantasy, and is in far more common usage. Right now Final Fantasy redirects to Final Fantasy (series), so I actually propose that Final Fantasy (series) be moved to Final Fantasy - which should link to Final Fantasy (disambiguation) and Final Fantasy (video game) with an italics message. --Teggles 04:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - "First" does not mean "Most Prominent", and disambiguation is needed between series and video game. Raime 13:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose I vote for Final Fantasy to be a disambiguation page between the video game, the series, Owen Pallett's band, and Leo Ku's album. Kariteh 14:09, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

FA push
I was considering an FA push for this article. Here are a couple of things that needs to be happened.


 * check reference quality, replace where unreliable, fill in where references are needed.
 * Add more information on the games development and soundtrack w/ primary source references.
 * copyedit
 * fair use rationales and sources images 2-11
 * image use, image captions, amano art, FMV?
 * merge some soundtrack info
 * quote from game story script, game manual in gameplay and story sections

Think we can do that for FA status? Thanks. Greg Jones II 15:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been waiting for this! And it comes at the perfect time, just after my previous FA push succeeded. Here's what I can commit to at this time:
 * I've added source information for the two images I added ("self-made" screenshots). I will check the rest for rationales later, and I will list any that I cannot find source information for.
 * I'll try to give the existing sources a once-over later on.
 * I can also supply game quotes from the NES version and its manual, but I'm unsure of which statements need support from in-game quotes. If someone will identify them in some way (not necessarily fact, you could just drop in a comment for me) I will do the sourcing.
 * Anomie 17:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * All images have rationales. The following lack sources:
 * Image:FF1 Japan boxart.jpg File is identical to.
 * Image:FF1 MSX boxart.jpg Possibly cropped from . A better-looking version is at, but it has a watermark in the corner.
 * Image:FF1 battle MSX.png A replacement might be found at or.
 * Image:FF1 battle WSC.jpg A replacement might be found at or.
 * Image:FF1PS Japan boxart.jpg Possible replacement at.
 * Image:Final Fantasy I and II Dawn of Souls - Soul of Chaos Boss.PNG Possible replacements at.
 * Image:FF1 Lich Cell Phone.jpg Possible replacements at or, or for the CDMA phone  or
 * Image:FF1 battle PSP.jpg Possible replacements at.
 * Anomie 16:24, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Playstation remake inaccuracy?
I don't believe that the Playstation remake had "bookended" CG cut scenes, as the PSP version includes everything from all versions but there was no ending CG rendered cut-scene, only one for the beginning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.142.137 (talk • contribs) 06:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

please someone add the 2008 date for the psp release in europe (and for ff2 too) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SquallLeonhart ITA (talk • contribs) 15:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent number of armor types
Under Customization:
 * In addition to weapons, there are four types of armor: Armor (Cuirasses, Robes, Bracelets), Helmets, Gauntlets, and Shields.

Under WonderSwan Color:
 * Further, in the original game, not only did each character have their own armor and weapon inventory, each was fixed to storing only 4 of each category per character. This meant that as opposed to the first game, one could now actually equip all 5 different armor types, as well as collect every single armor and weapon in the game without needing to drop or sell anything.

It's obviously not consistent enough, but I'm not sure what number should actually be said. Thus, I'm leaving it to the experts.

AspiringSquire 00:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I can confirm that in the original NES version there are only the four types described. No idea what that might be saying about the WSC version. Anomie 00:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization of proper nouns in the story
The words of concern are those in bold.


 * With Sarda's Rod, the Warriors venture deeper into the Earth Cave and destroy the Earth fiend, Lich, who is responsible for the earth's decay. The Light Warriors then [...] defeat the Fire fiend, Kary (Marilith). [...] After proving their courage [...], the King of the dragons, Bahamut, promotes each light-warrior. [...] the Warriors go to the Sunken Shrine to defeat the Water fiend, Kraken. [...] The Lefeinish give the Light Warriors access to the Floating Castle (Sky Castle) that Tiamat, the Wind fiend, has taken over. With the four fiends defeated and the Orbs restored, the Warriors find that their quest is not yet over: [...] the Warriors discover that the four fiends sent Garland (now the archdemon Chaos) back in time and he sent the fiends to the future to do so, creating a time loop by which he could live forever.

Shouldn't every mention of a Fiend, Four Fiends, and Light Warrior be capitalized (and the latter without a dash)? Also, I'm not sure if it is appropriate to capitalize King unless the whole phrase is treated similarly: King of the Dragons (or perhaps king of the dragons). If no one objects, I may just go ahead with these changes.

AspiringSquire 00:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Except for "the four Fiends", I don't object. Anomie 00:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, that settles everything except for "King of the dragons"; the question is whether the title is a proper noun ("King of the Dragons") or not (all lowercase). AspiringSquire 05:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Of the relevant lines of dialog from the NES version, he is referred to twice as "the King of the Dragons" and once as "the Dragon King". So I say "King of the Dragons". Anomie 12:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Soul of Chaos
There's this written in one of the images' boxes: "A battle against a Soul of Chaos boss in the GBA version. This one is Shinryuu from Final Fantasy V" - what exactly is a 'Soul of Chaos'? I'm interested in such a concept since Shinryuu was immensely strong and no information on it was given in the game but I never heard of a 'Soul of Chaos'. -- Menti  fisto  06:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The section says Main article: Rereleases of Final Fantasy I and II, did you look there? Anomie⚔ 12:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah yeah, I missed it. Thanks. -- Menti  fisto  00:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Move Rereleases to new article
There is already an article for Compilations of Final Fantasy I and II. Since the DS remakes of FF III and IV warrant their own articles, there is enough precedent and information in this article to warrant a new article such as "Remakes" or "Rereleases of Final Fantasy I" for the game's FIVE new formats (not even including the original NA localization). --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 18:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Development section
Just noting that has some interesting details about the development of FF1. Kariteh (talk) 17:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)